#205 - The Critical Minerals Crisis: Why the Future of AI Depends on Deep-Sea Mining | Oliver Gunasekara

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Don't be scared about setting aspirational goals and going to it.

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Nothing holds you back but yourself.

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If you believe in the mission, you can bring others with you and you can achieve the
impossible.

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Today on the Necessary Entrepreneur, we're joined by Oliver Gunasekara.

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Gunasekara.

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I did it almost right.

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We had to get that last name correct, and it's close.

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But what a cool ass name.

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He's CEO and co-founder of Impossible Metals.

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Oliver has a background in semiconductors and spent years on leadership roles at Qualcomm,
but today he's focused on a much bigger challenge, helping solve one of the biggest

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bottlenecks in the global shift to clean energy.

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His company's building autonomous underwater robots designed to collect critical minerals
from the ocean floor, a solution that sits right at the intersection of innovation,

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environmental impact, and global demand.

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This conversation is about building in complexity and making decisions where there are no
perfect answers and what it really take what it takes to take on a problem at a global

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scale.

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So welcome to the episode, Oliver, and uh I guess we're talking globally today.

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Yeah, really excited to be here.

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Um that was a a really big intro, but I appreciate it and looking forward to the
conversation.

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Yeah, let's live up to it.

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So taking us folks that have the layman perspective and not understanding or comprehending
underwater, which is under deep sea beds, down in the the bed of the sea, talk to us about

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this and help us understand as if we just heard about it, but don't understand the
complexities and what's really happening.

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What we can comprehend is, I think, drilling for oil.

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But I think I compare this to as you hand off and tell us.

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It seems like I hear about one of these days maybe we can go to a meteor and there's
trillions of dollars of rare earth minerals on these media.

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And I'm like, man, that's gotta be hard.

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But since this is on Earth under the seabed, I'm assuming it's similar minerals.

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And um, tell us all about this and what what it really is all about.

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Yeah, I think the the first place to start is, you know, mining is actually pretty
essential to our way of life.

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You know, we don't think much about it.

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I didn't until I started this company.

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But if you look around, everything you see, it either was grown or it was mined.

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Everything.

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So technology, energy, infrastructure, AI, you name it, it needs metals and materials out
of the ground.

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And we don't think about that.

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But you know, we as humans, even when we were living in cages in caves and kind of
shooting arrows, we were picking up material, flint maybe, putting it on the arrow.

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That was mining.

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So this is fundamental to our way of life.

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The problem is is that the where we get this material is out of sight.

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It's often in Africa or Indonesia or other places.

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And we don't really think about it.

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And and yet

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The supply chain now becomes very important because we realize we're all interconnected.

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And what we're doing at Impossible Metals is building new technology to go to the deep
ocean and pick up these little rocks.

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And I'm holding one up for for people that might be on video.

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This rock contains huge amounts of four metals: nickel, cobalt, copper, and manganese.

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And there's over $20 trillion worth.

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just lying between Hawaii and Mexico.

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So that's that's really the focus that we have on on picking these up with new technology.

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So let's say all those get picked up.

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Then do we start drilling on the seabed to access it there then?

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Fortunately, the type of resource we're going after, this potato sized rock, is is formed
on the seabed floor, not necessarily below or under.

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So they just lie on the seabed floor.

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So to pick them up, you literally have to pick them off the seabed floor.

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You don't have to drill, you don't have to blast, you don't have to tunnel.

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But the seafloor is pretty big and pretty deep.

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We're talking three to four miles deep.

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And so that does present unique challenges and typically hundreds or thousands of miles
away from from any coastal lands.

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So it's a challenging environment, maybe not quite as challenging as going to space, but
definitely very, very lucrative when we can get it to operate.

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So since it's sitting on the seabed floor, why do we call it mining and not harvesting?

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When we go and get it.

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It's a great question and and and I think mining isn't really the right term because i i i
it is more of harvesting or collecting.

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Um there are other types of minerals in the ocean that are more invasive, that do involve
traditional cutting and blasting, um and and so i collectively they are put together as

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deep sea mining.

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But the the polymetallic nodules, the

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the the potato sized rocks that I I have here and we're focused on, those just lie on the
seabed floor and and they always contain those four metals.

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So what type of robotics do you have to build and design and the tech behind it to go and
get Because how I can see it visually as a human, I'm like, that's easy, just reach your

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hand down in the water and pick one up.

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It's not so simple, but what has to be built that we don't already have to make it
efficient to go down there and pick or harvest them?

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Yeah, I think the best way to answer that is kind of what has everyone else done?

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Because we s first started doing collector tests to pick up these nodules in the nineteen
seventies.

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And the tech that they used was what is described as a dredging tractor with a riser
system.

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So it's a huge machine, a bit like a combine harbester.

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It gets lowered the three to four miles to the seabed floor.

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It has tracks like a tank, and then it sucks up.

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The nodules in the seabed, and then has a riser tube that takes that the three to four
miles up to the support ship, where the nodules are are dewatered, the sediment is

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separated, and then that's pumped back into the ocean.

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So there are maybe half a dozen companies that have built this technology over the last 50
years.

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Uh but recently there's been a lot of environmental pushback on, well.

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We didn't realize there's actually a lot of life in the ocean.

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It's very unique life.

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Most of it is is microscopic.

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It's bacteria, it's single cell organisms, and occasionally it's larger forms.

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But it is there is life.

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And so when I started the company, it was how could we take twenty-first century
technology, technology like robotics and AI and computer vision and batteries and

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autonomy, and build a system that would have less impact?

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And that's ultimately what we built.

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And maybe I can briefly describe what we do is we use a swarm or a fleet of robots.

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Each robot is about the size of a 20-foot shipping container, so they're quite large.

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They have a very big battery pack, like a truck that's electrically powered.

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And then they use a technology we invented called the buoyancy engine to move up and down
the water column.

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And when they get caught,

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close to the seabed floor, they don't land, they hover.

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And they have a bunch of cameras and AI processing and robotic arms.

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And we basically use the cameras and the AI to control the arms, to pick the nodules one
by one, put them on a kind of circulating water conveyor system, move them inside the

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vehicle and fill the vehicle.

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Because we're using the AI and the cameras, we can choose how much we pick up.

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We can also avoid any visible life like an octopus and its eggs.

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And then once the vehicle's full, it uses the battery and buoyancy system to float to near
the surface, where we have another robot on a crane that docks with it below the wave

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affected zone, and then that pulls it onto the ship.

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On the ship we empty the payload, the nodules into the storage of the ship.

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We swap the battery for one that's now fully charged.

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We do any maintenance and then we redeploy.

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And that's what we call the Eureka collection system.

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We'll give you a link to a YouTube video that shows how all of this works.

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So is it already profitable per excursion, or are you still trying to build further depth
to make it more efficient, more profitable?

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So we we we need a fleet of vehicles and we're at the point of scaling up now.

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So we we still have a a few more years to get to the point of commercial deployment.

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But with a fleet of vehicles we will absolutely be profitable.

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Um you know, we we think we could do one to two billion a year in revenue, um, and then
have pretty high profit margins associated to that.

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Yeah, it seems like once you get the rare earths here, it's probably pretty easy on how
that process goes then.

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Not saying you'll but right am I correct?

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Yeah, I mean you still have to process.

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Um, like all ore and and mining, um, the metals are not just in one location.

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You've got to figure out how to separate them out of the the material that is is less
valuable.

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And and that that takes a bit of time.

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Um but but once that's that's done, you can use traditional processing facilities to do
that.

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And there's been some testing in Japan showing uh how how to do that.

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but ultimately we you know, here in the States we need to build that infrastructure.

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It's something that we've outsourced, but we need to have both the mining, uh in our case
the s selective collection and also the processing.

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Do I'm just gonna call them rocks.

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You probably call something else, but

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Modules is is the technical term, but they're they're they're they're rocks.

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We'll go with nodules.

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So if you go down there and you're watching it on camera and you can pick up just the
nodules you want, but is it pretty much every piece of rock or nodule you see?

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Is that one you target, or do you have to evaluate each one with using AI tech as well?

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No, they're they're all kind of equally valuable.

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So the the grade, i.e.

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the amount of valuable metal inside each rock is constant for a given area.

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So the only thing we have to decide is which ones do we pick.

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They do vary a little bit in size.

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So we want to fill the vehicle as quickly as possible.

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So we'll prioritize the larger ones.

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But that's a policy decision.

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Uh we can choose how much we leave behind.

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We think

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to be maximally precautionary at the start will leave something like ninety percent of the
nodules uh behind and only remove ten.

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But really the AI is to control the arm and look for the life.

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You s having previous startups and even being in corporate America and then having exits,
how do you go through all those and all this experience and how do you land on this

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opportunity?

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How's this happen?

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It it's it's it's quite bizarre because, you know, I had really a semiconductor
background.

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You know, I I I worked at a British company called ARM that became quite successful.

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I was one of the early employees uh there, around 60 when when I joined.

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But I've had a lot of exposure to robotics and AI and other forms of technology.

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And and I'm I'm probably more a business person today than a hands-on engineer.

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But I have an engineering background and I'm quite curious and and I know a little bit
about a broad area.

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I'm not super deep in any one, but but quite broad.

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And you know, how I came across this area was after selling my last company to to AMD uh
in twenty nineteen, um I I was like gonna go traveling, go take some time off, and then

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the pandemic happened and so I was kind of locked down.

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and had more time than than I knew exactly what to do and started researching.

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And here in the Bay Area we actually had really bad wildfires at that time.

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And that got me quite interested in, you know, electrification and how do we move beyond
um some of these um energy intensive and and uh emission intensive industries.

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And and so I ultimately discovered a company at the that's called Deep Green.

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They're now known as the the metals company.

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They're probably the leader in this space, public company now.

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Uh but their technology was basically an evolution of that nineteen seventies.

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It's had some some little upgrades, but it's fundamentally the same thing.

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And that's what led me to kind of say, well, why is there no brand new style?

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Because what we can do today with semiconductors, with robotics, with batteries, with AI
is just so different than fifty years ago.

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How important is speed?

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Because we're in an open market capitalist system.

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You're talking about it, it was here before you someone or two people or two companies are
gonna win.

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How important is speed?

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It's really, really important.

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I um and speed and timing, I think the two are probably one of the two most important
vectors for success in in entrepreneurial areas.

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Um, you know, speed, uh you know, as a startup, as a younger company, you always have less
resources, less money, less people, which means less time to do things.

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So uh operating with pace is is I think

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part of your your secret source.

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It's your uniqueness.

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And and so you you you have to leverage that.

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And almost everything you do is a signal to others.

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And and and so pace I think is is really, really important.

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but market timing is also pretty important.

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I'm I'm I'm also a believer that if you're doing something in the hardware domain that is
quite difficult, uh it's probably good at the time you start it.

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Most people think you're crazy.

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It's not obvious.

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because if it is, everyone else piles in and all the big guys and it's just very, very
hard.

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What you want is you see the world a little differently to others.

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You believe this thing that most people think at the time you create it is completely
insane will become mainstream.

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And that's difficult because you're never going to get that right 100% of the time.

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But if you do, by the time it becomes more mature, you've built enough leads, you've
invented enough technology

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You've got IP, you've got trade secrets, you've got customer engagements, you've got
partnerships that you now become quite valuable because you've got that head start.

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And so I think both speed and market timing are just crucial.

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Did you in your previous companies, um, did you raise funds there too or did you bootstrap
those?

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Started with bootstrapping but but we were able to raise um some cash as well.

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So did that did that experience help you then come here and raise a greater amount of
money in the beginning?

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Yeah, uh absolutely.

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Um, you know, I think it's always good to bootstrap and uh you you want to get angel
investment early because those angels can help as well.

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You know, if people are willing to give you money off your idea when there's nothing else,
that's I think a strong signal that that you can convince people and there are other

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believers.

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Uh and and

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And the end of the day, you know, startups are about making something, you know, and you
you you don't raise all the money for the life of the company on day one because you'd

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you'd never get the right valuation.

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You you raise it in in in chunks, and to get to the next chunk, you've got to deliver
something.

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Either something you've built or something, a commercial arrangement or some marketing
factors.

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that are outside of your control but still important.

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And and and so you know I think getting that validation is really important.

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Yeah.

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So we're talking about sales, right?

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And so you coming from the engineering background and right.

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So you had to put on a new hat and learn a new skill to become a salesperson.

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I I I did, but fortunately I didn't do that on I would say my own dime.

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I I kind of did it at larger companies.

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So I did that quite early in my career and kind of moved into the the business
development, the marketing, the sales roles.

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And and I think that that really helps.

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00:17:42,178 --> 00:17:51,382
It helps you understand how to build long term relationships, how to do negotiations, um,
how to work with customers and and partners.

207
00:17:51,382 --> 00:17:53,863
Um and so I think personally I think

208
00:17:53,927 --> 00:18:00,056
It's good to do a lot of learning without doing it at your own company if you can help it.

209
00:18:00,057 --> 00:18:07,267
Because there's a lot to learn and and we all learn, in my view, more from failure than
from success.

210
00:18:07,999 --> 00:18:08,339
Yeah.

211
00:18:08,339 --> 00:18:18,655
Um, do you when you're raising funds, because you're in this next level of you're gonna
have to raise millions more to take it for you to get to this billion dollar revenue

212
00:18:18,655 --> 00:18:22,567
number, you're gonna have to raise millions more, I'm assuming.

213
00:18:23,668 --> 00:18:24,018
Yes.

214
00:18:24,018 --> 00:18:24,428
Okay.

215
00:18:24,428 --> 00:18:26,279
So it's like AI now, right?

216
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:32,752
The amount of revenue that's gonna that is necessary now to build these infrastructures
out is enormous.

217
00:18:32,873 --> 00:18:37,875
So for you to is it is it nerve wracking to you to raise the money?

218
00:18:37,875 --> 00:18:38,817
Or is it exciting?

219
00:18:38,817 --> 00:18:44,791
When we're talking honestly, maybe the billionaire investor will will be listening, but I
think we could admit if it's tough and nerve wracking.

220
00:18:44,791 --> 00:18:47,035
But do you like it or is it tough?

221
00:18:47,499 --> 00:18:51,421
I like it, but it's also about having an incredible team around.

222
00:18:51,421 --> 00:19:03,628
You know, some some of the people that we have in the company, you know, like our our our
chief growth officer, um, you know, uh he he's he's just incredible at evangelising and

223
00:19:03,628 --> 00:19:06,829
and telling the story, you know, better than I am.

224
00:19:06,829 --> 00:19:16,785
You know, I I think the key is building a team, you know, there are certain things that
I'm I'm good at, there's certain things I'm not as good at you know, and and not great at.

225
00:19:16,785 --> 00:19:17,417
And

226
00:19:17,417 --> 00:19:23,735
You know, what makes successful companies is that team where you have complementary
skills.

227
00:19:24,331 --> 00:19:27,477
What you think your go to leadership philosophy is?

228
00:19:27,477 --> 00:19:28,958
What's your basis?

229
00:19:29,875 --> 00:19:40,278
Yeah, I think I think you want to act as you would like others to behave towards you and
and never ask anyone to do something you're not willing to do yourself.

230
00:19:40,278 --> 00:19:54,452
Um, you know, for me, I think it's important to be really approachable and, you know, have
have respect for everybody in the organization, no matter where they sit in the org chart.

231
00:19:54,452 --> 00:19:57,662
You know, good ideas can come from anywhere.

232
00:19:57,662 --> 00:20:00,105
They don't just come from the C suite.

233
00:20:00,105 --> 00:20:05,582
And often the more senior you get, the more abstracted you can be.

234
00:20:05,663 --> 00:20:12,281
And so having that ear for people that that are around you, I think is just really
important.

235
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:19,337
So with the sales hat on, why is impossible metals gonna win in this space?

236
00:20:20,779 --> 00:20:26,684
I think it's down to um technology team and execution.

237
00:20:26,985 --> 00:20:41,510
You know, we've we've now spent almost six years building this unique technology that is
considerably less expensive and less environmental and and I think will set us up to to

238
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:45,203
have you know to be the dominant solution.

239
00:20:45,407 --> 00:20:47,018
that that will roll forward.

240
00:20:47,018 --> 00:20:49,169
But we have a lot of execution ahead of us.

241
00:20:49,169 --> 00:20:52,390
You know, we've we've built two generations of robot.

242
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:54,111
We're working on the third.

243
00:20:54,111 --> 00:20:55,261
We have to scale it.

244
00:20:55,261 --> 00:20:57,272
We have to build out a fleet.

245
00:20:57,272 --> 00:20:59,303
There's there's a lot of hard work ahead of us.

246
00:20:59,303 --> 00:21:03,935
But I I think we could be a major player.

247
00:21:03,935 --> 00:21:13,207
And just generally talking about the industry, I I like to describe deep sea mining as
kind of where oil and gas was in the nineteen seventies.

248
00:21:13,207 --> 00:21:15,279
You know, oil and gas was

249
00:21:15,307 --> 00:21:19,110
Predominantly on land, onshore.

250
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:24,434
And yet technology innovation made it possible to now go offshore.

251
00:21:24,594 --> 00:21:36,494
And we roll forward fifty years and a third of the market comes from offshore, employing
millions of people, generating, you know, probably, you know, huge amounts of revenues.

252
00:21:36,494 --> 00:21:39,676
Um and and that's where mining is going to go.

253
00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:40,387
So

254
00:21:41,416 --> 00:21:45,480
Do you think the oil companies for did they foresee that?

255
00:21:45,781 --> 00:21:47,362
They they probably did, right?

256
00:21:47,362 --> 00:21:57,703
That they probably built the models out that after this, the tech we don't have it yet,
but we know it's gonna catch up and then we'll take the knowledge and the ability and go

257
00:21:57,703 --> 00:21:58,614
offshore.

258
00:21:58,614 --> 00:22:00,435
I'm assuming that's the case.

259
00:22:00,597 --> 00:22:02,258
Yeah, I don't honestly know.

260
00:22:02,258 --> 00:22:06,130
It would be a great case study to to look into.

261
00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:16,776
My suspicion is that it needed a certain type of entrepreneurial company that was had a
higher risk profile than the established players.

262
00:22:16,776 --> 00:22:29,205
Um and so I don't know, but my guess would be that there were maybe some newer players
that were had had a higher tolerance for risk, were willing to do more innovation.

263
00:22:29,205 --> 00:22:35,847
That pioneered the market, and then those ultimately were acquired and the the rest of the
industry followed.

264
00:22:35,847 --> 00:22:40,817
That's that's my working assumption, but but yeah, we should do some research and figure.

265
00:22:40,817 --> 00:22:42,150
So I weed that to this.

266
00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:50,137
Once all the nodules are picked up in fifty years, what can this tech that you're building
be compounded into and further mining?

267
00:22:50,539 --> 00:22:52,771
Well, there's there's a lot of dual use of our tech.

268
00:22:52,771 --> 00:22:55,893
I mean the the the ocean is is huge.

269
00:22:55,893 --> 00:22:58,085
It's seventy one percent of our planet.

270
00:22:58,085 --> 00:23:01,378
We haven't explored huge amounts of it.

271
00:23:01,378 --> 00:23:05,962
only about a quarter or so has been mapped at high resolution.

272
00:23:05,962 --> 00:23:14,358
And and so the tech can absolutely be used to uh help in in the mapping and surveying and
collection of of data.

273
00:23:14,358 --> 00:23:20,277
Um so I think that's that's a big application uh for for what we're doing.

274
00:23:20,277 --> 00:23:24,560
So are you are you a robotics and tech company versus a mining?

275
00:23:25,687 --> 00:23:29,489
That's a that's a a debate that we have quite quite often.

276
00:23:29,489 --> 00:23:31,950
I think the reality is we're a bit of both.

277
00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:36,252
Um, but I think what really sets us apart is the technology.

278
00:23:36,252 --> 00:23:43,535
Uh but ultimately, you know, our our mission is is to deliver these metals that the world
needs.

279
00:23:43,535 --> 00:23:50,278
And I think, you know, here in in in the States, we have to re-energize some of the
industrial markets.

280
00:23:50,278 --> 00:23:53,279
You know, we've outsourced for too long

281
00:23:54,091 --> 00:23:56,733
key parts of our industrialization.

282
00:23:56,733 --> 00:24:01,347
And and mining and the metals is almost at the front part of that.

283
00:24:01,347 --> 00:24:07,271
Without those, you won't be able to build AI data centers or infrastructure.

284
00:24:07,271 --> 00:24:12,847
Um and so, you know, I think it's just a really important thing that we need to get going
on.

285
00:24:13,003 --> 00:24:17,665
So can we go to this AI data center real quick since you just brought it up?

286
00:24:18,488 --> 00:24:23,662
I heard, I don't know if it was the CEO of Nvidia, I don't know who it was.

287
00:24:23,662 --> 00:24:25,833
It might have been someone else.

288
00:24:26,674 --> 00:24:42,207
That it probably wasn't him, where they said that they're really concerned for 2030
because the infrastructure inside these data centers are gonna need to be renewed just

289
00:24:42,207 --> 00:24:43,027
like.

290
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:44,642
Computers are for us.

291
00:24:44,642 --> 00:24:54,512
And so even though it's a multi-billion dollar build now, this person, I forget who it
was, their concern is it's going to be a multi-billion dollar build every five years to

292
00:24:54,512 --> 00:24:55,513
update them.

293
00:24:57,331 --> 00:25:04,355
And he said he doesn't see it was a projection out five years that there would be a major
bust in that business because of that.

294
00:25:05,491 --> 00:25:07,732
Yeah, I think that there are a lot of challenges.

295
00:25:07,732 --> 00:25:18,749
Um, workforce, you know, are are there enough blue collar jobs to electricians, plumbers,
you know, this is this is very, very critical.

296
00:25:18,749 --> 00:25:24,551
I mean, right now they're they're having to pay them huge amounts, uh, but there's still
there's limits.

297
00:25:24,551 --> 00:25:26,624
Um I I think that's a challenge.

298
00:25:26,624 --> 00:25:29,645
Uh where we're focused on is the raw materials.

299
00:25:29,645 --> 00:25:32,857
You know, a data center uses a huge amount of copper.

300
00:25:32,981 --> 00:25:36,132
You know, it's just in all the wiring, all the electrification.

301
00:25:36,132 --> 00:25:40,603
And, you know, things like nickel and cobalt are often used in specialized alloys.

302
00:25:40,603 --> 00:25:44,094
So so they get used in batteries and and other things.

303
00:25:44,094 --> 00:25:48,615
So just getting enough of this material is is another challenge.

304
00:25:48,636 --> 00:25:55,217
And, you know, for twenty five years or more we've outsourced to Chinese controlled mines.

305
00:25:55,217 --> 00:26:01,173
And and that's a problem as we're you know, some say we're we're in a cold war with China
right now and

306
00:26:01,173 --> 00:26:05,367
You know, with the trade negotiations you see how they manipulate the rare earths.

307
00:26:05,367 --> 00:26:13,265
Um and, you know, not having our own supply I think puts us at a huge strategic
vulnerability.

308
00:26:13,791 --> 00:26:17,223
For us to understand this a little bit more, we all understand this brand Tesla.

309
00:26:17,223 --> 00:26:22,636
Let me try to make these connections if I can connect what you're doing with impossible
metals in this mining.

310
00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:24,837
Because there's a big debate there too.

311
00:26:24,837 --> 00:26:27,098
Is he a car company or a tech company?

312
00:26:27,098 --> 00:26:39,685
And what I believe is they're a tech company, because as I talk to my friends who have EVs
who aren't even Tesla, they stop at the Tesla superchargers to charge their vehicles.

313
00:26:39,905 --> 00:26:43,295
So and they're paying a lot of money now.

314
00:26:43,295 --> 00:26:44,356
To charge those.

315
00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:48,339
I just had a friend who went on a trip from Cincinnati to Nashville.

316
00:26:48,479 --> 00:26:59,608
And there and back, he spent four hundred and fifty dollars at superchargers to charge his
Chevrolet EV on the round trip.

317
00:27:00,550 --> 00:27:02,962
And now he was paying more because he wanted to charge it fast.

318
00:27:02,962 --> 00:27:06,955
So he would charge it full in 60 minutes, sitting at like a Buckeys or something.

319
00:27:06,955 --> 00:27:10,317
Um so that's the argument.

320
00:27:10,418 --> 00:27:11,967
Was Elon looking.

321
00:27:11,967 --> 00:27:14,903
Decades ahead on what we were going to need when no one else saw it.

322
00:27:14,903 --> 00:27:17,237
He wasn't building EV cars.

323
00:27:17,237 --> 00:27:20,743
He was building infrastructure that everybody else was going to use and buy.

324
00:27:21,919 --> 00:27:26,412
Yeah, I mean I I I think, you know, Elon is is one of the great visionaries.

325
00:27:26,412 --> 00:27:31,005
You know, he he sees the future before most of us do.

326
00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:34,047
Um but I definitely think he's a tech company.

327
00:27:34,047 --> 00:27:45,375
I I think long term if you look back at Tesla, it will be known for maybe autonomous
driving and humanoid robots, not so much for cars.

328
00:27:45,375 --> 00:27:46,076
Yep.

329
00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:46,597
Yeah.

330
00:27:46,597 --> 00:27:47,748
So what do you take from that?

331
00:27:47,748 --> 00:27:52,726
I mean, I'm sure in s put put if he's as popular as he used to be, right?

332
00:27:52,726 --> 00:27:56,011
Tesla used to be the darling and all politics gets into everything.

333
00:27:56,011 --> 00:28:02,289
But is he in San Jose in Silicon Valley, is he held up at like the top of the podium?

334
00:28:02,815 --> 00:28:14,114
I I I think his political activities have made him quite unpopular, especially with with
the left um side of the world.

335
00:28:14,114 --> 00:28:23,282
But, you know, if you just treat him as an entrepreneur, I I think he is the leader of the
world on that front.

336
00:28:23,282 --> 00:28:32,399
You know, his companies have built incredible technologies, you know, things that that
people have never ever seen before, and he scaled them.

337
00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:38,322
And, you know, he's often criticized, it it he he he doesn't hit his dates, it takes
longer.

338
00:28:38,322 --> 00:28:44,604
But he's doing like like us in some regards, the impossible, he's doing things that have
never been done before.

339
00:28:44,744 --> 00:28:52,988
And yeah, he may take a little longer than he initially thinks, but I've never seen him
actually fail, like not deliver.

340
00:28:52,988 --> 00:29:01,299
And you know, I was on a personal note, I was super uh lucky

341
00:29:01,331 --> 00:29:07,475
over a year ago to go and witness one of the SpaceX launches of the super heavy starship.

342
00:29:07,475 --> 00:29:12,898
And and that was I think launch five, I think it was, when when they actually caught the
rocket.

343
00:29:12,898 --> 00:29:23,475
So I was on the beach watching this, you know, massive rocket come back to the tower and
being caught by the chopsticks with, you know, I don't know, a few thousand other people

344
00:29:23,475 --> 00:29:27,273
all screaming like we just knew did no idea what was going to happen.

345
00:29:27,273 --> 00:29:31,469
And that that is an experience and memory that will be with me for forever.

346
00:29:31,469 --> 00:29:33,209
It was just incredible.

347
00:29:33,343 --> 00:29:45,093
You being in Silicon Valley and being in tech for a couple decades, the people like him
and Steve Jobs, let's go away from the unpopularity of their characteristics at times, but

348
00:29:45,093 --> 00:29:50,858
the things that they've accomplished and some before them, um what inspiration do we take?

349
00:29:50,858 --> 00:29:55,442
And there's probably people that we don't know their names that you know about too.

350
00:29:55,442 --> 00:30:01,609
What inspiration do you take from, let's say, the top 10 folks in tech, whether we know
them or not, that you all in the industry have.

351
00:30:01,609 --> 00:30:02,601
What do you take from them?

352
00:30:02,601 --> 00:30:07,429
What type of leadership or what type of indirect mentorship for you to build and run your
companies?

353
00:30:07,429 --> 00:30:09,541
What do you take from them to implement?

354
00:30:10,197 --> 00:30:22,257
Yeah, I'm I'm I mean, I think, you know, Elon has this uh thing called the algorithm of
which is like this five points that he uses in all of his engineering companies.

355
00:30:22,257 --> 00:30:30,964
Like, you know, uh question the requirements, I think is the first one of the five and and
you know, simplify and then automates right at the end.

356
00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:32,806
I don't remember exactly all of them.

357
00:30:32,806 --> 00:30:39,901
But I think that that that's just general great hygiene for anyone that's building really
advanced

358
00:30:39,901 --> 00:30:41,031
systems.

359
00:30:41,031 --> 00:30:47,753
But I I I think the generalization of these people is the the vision that they have.

360
00:30:47,753 --> 00:30:52,304
I mean I I I grew up in England where we're kind of conservative.

361
00:30:52,304 --> 00:30:55,555
We don't make big bold ideas.

362
00:30:55,555 --> 00:30:58,936
And and this is what America's amazing at, right?

363
00:30:58,936 --> 00:31:00,657
It's it's the moonshots.

364
00:31:00,657 --> 00:31:02,587
It's like we're gonna put a person on the moon.

365
00:31:02,587 --> 00:31:07,329
Like, you know, as we're recording this, Optimus II is about to head to the moon.

366
00:31:07,329 --> 00:31:08,999
That's that's incredible.

367
00:31:09,023 --> 00:31:18,186
You know, these these are the things that I think can inspire people that we're doing
things that are difficult, hard, never been done before.

368
00:31:18,367 --> 00:31:26,510
But if you get people behind the mission, you get incredible talent that does incredible
work.

369
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:39,039
And I think if you look at a Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and others, they were able to put
out an incredible vision and inspire brilliant teams around them.

370
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:40,740
to execute and deliver.

371
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:43,860
And, you know, that's a lot to live up to.

372
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:47,040
But, you know, what we're trying to do here is is not easy.

373
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:47,721
It's hard.

374
00:31:47,721 --> 00:31:52,793
And the reason I kind of called the company Impossible Metals is everyone said it can't be
done.

375
00:31:52,793 --> 00:31:55,784
You you know, there's a one way to do it, these dredging tractors.

376
00:31:55,784 --> 00:31:57,454
You cannot use autonomy.

377
00:31:57,454 --> 00:32:00,245
You cannot control that number of robots.

378
00:32:00,245 --> 00:32:02,545
You know, it's just too complex.

379
00:32:02,646 --> 00:32:07,901
But we have an incredible team that takes those challenges every day and

380
00:32:07,901 --> 00:32:10,755
moves forward and it doesn't mean it doesn't always work.

381
00:32:10,755 --> 00:32:14,009
We have a lot of failures, but we learn and keep going.

382
00:32:14,261 --> 00:32:20,166
So what do you and therefore them when you sell them the vision, what do you get most
excited about?

383
00:32:20,166 --> 00:32:25,891
Is it just about generally doing the impossible, taking any general idea and say, let's do
the impossible?

384
00:32:25,891 --> 00:32:27,162
They said it can't be done.

385
00:32:27,162 --> 00:32:34,167
Or is there a certain impossible that's beyond just picking up the rocks on the seabed
floor?

386
00:32:34,167 --> 00:32:35,579
Like is it what's the vision?

387
00:32:35,579 --> 00:32:41,063
Because if it's that simple, because we built a whole idea, one of the most popular movies
ever was The Titanic.

388
00:32:41,063 --> 00:32:43,645
And, you know, they're talking about, you know.

389
00:32:43,679 --> 00:32:46,091
Finding it and securing it and going down picking it up.

390
00:32:46,091 --> 00:32:53,568
Look how much look how many people and mean people even passed away doing it, just going
down and seeing the Titanic.

391
00:32:53,568 --> 00:32:58,272
So is it just being somebody challenging you to do the impossible and saying you can't?

392
00:32:58,272 --> 00:33:06,003
There's a certain amount of human beings that like to take that on, or is there sp a
specific impossible that you're behind?

393
00:33:06,003 --> 00:33:08,104
It's for me, it's a combination.

394
00:33:08,104 --> 00:33:10,025
I love the technology.

395
00:33:10,025 --> 00:33:15,247
I love inventing new things, doing something for the first time.

396
00:33:15,247 --> 00:33:21,789
You know, I'm I'm definitely the type of founder that likes to go from nothing to
something.

397
00:33:21,789 --> 00:33:27,552
And there are others that love running big public companies and, you know, doing quarterly
earnings.

398
00:33:27,552 --> 00:33:28,862
That's that's not me.

399
00:33:28,862 --> 00:33:33,934
I I really like the early stage of like we've got to figure this all out.

400
00:33:33,934 --> 00:33:35,975
But it goes beyond that.

401
00:33:36,167 --> 00:33:40,509
You've got to inspire a team and that's about the mission.

402
00:33:40,509 --> 00:33:45,931
And and for us it's about, you know, we need these for national security.

403
00:33:46,592 --> 00:33:48,853
Like China just controls it all.

404
00:33:48,853 --> 00:33:50,413
That's not good.

405
00:33:50,413 --> 00:33:52,474
So that's another big motivator.

406
00:33:52,474 --> 00:33:59,457
The second is environmentally, if you look at how we get our medals today, let's take
nickel.

407
00:33:59,457 --> 00:34:04,389
Seventy percent of the world's nickel is mined in the islands of Indonesia.

408
00:34:04,405 --> 00:34:10,458
But unfortunately, it's right below the rainforest, literally directly below.

409
00:34:10,458 --> 00:34:16,721
So you have to destroy the whole rainforest, all of the biodiversity, all of the life, all
of the carbon.

410
00:34:16,721 --> 00:34:20,963
Often there are indigenous people that live there that are kind of forced out.

411
00:34:20,963 --> 00:34:22,344
And then you have to process.

412
00:34:22,344 --> 00:34:24,925
And they use a really dirty way of processing.

413
00:34:24,925 --> 00:34:27,627
It's called HPOW, high pressure acid leaching.

414
00:34:27,627 --> 00:34:34,313
It uses coal power, it uses a lot of acid, there's a lot of pollution, the fishing gets
destroyed.

415
00:34:34,313 --> 00:34:47,088
So the social impacts to people, the environmental impacts, uh and the fact that, you
know, we have incredible technology we can invent, it's important for national security.

416
00:34:47,088 --> 00:34:52,330
And then at the end, if we do it and execute, we're going to make a lot of money for
everyone.

417
00:34:53,011 --> 00:34:55,672
It's a it's the package of all.

418
00:34:55,672 --> 00:35:03,075
And I think, you know, different people have different parts of that prioritization, but
together, I think it makes it really compelling.

419
00:35:03,285 --> 00:35:10,019
When you're talking to investors, how much do you think they really that both are really
important?

420
00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:12,746
I think it depends on the investor.

421
00:35:12,746 --> 00:35:18,831
I mean, some investors you know care an awful lot about the environment and social side of
things.

422
00:35:18,831 --> 00:35:23,525
Uh others are are very, very focused ultimately on getting a return.

423
00:35:23,525 --> 00:35:27,248
I mean, that's that's that's why they're investing.

424
00:35:27,248 --> 00:35:38,517
And in the early stages, I would say you can attract angel investors that, of course, want
to make a return, but they want to be associated with really cool technology.

425
00:35:38,878 --> 00:35:40,041
So oh

426
00:35:40,041 --> 00:35:42,533
With investors they they crossed the line.

427
00:35:42,533 --> 00:35:51,720
And and again, we didn't talk about national security, but I suspect that when we do have
some investors that invest purely on national security as well.

428
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,463
So um like everything, it's not black and white.

429
00:35:55,463 --> 00:36:01,457
It's a spectrum and some will prioritize others, but all I think have a factor to play.

430
00:36:01,557 --> 00:36:02,228
Yeah.

431
00:36:02,228 --> 00:36:04,039
So we talked about team.

432
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:05,430
It's been so important to you.

433
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:11,515
You build the vision, get them to buy into it, but also you talked about your chief chief
growth officer.

434
00:36:11,515 --> 00:36:16,760
What has been your approach, all this experience bringing it forward now with Impossible
Metterns?

435
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:28,149
What's been your approach to hiring not just what we would consider key positions, but
what's been your approach this time around with this this company to hiring?

436
00:36:28,149 --> 00:36:30,621
How have you learned to do it the best?

437
00:36:31,177 --> 00:36:33,318
Yeah, I think it's be flexible.

438
00:36:33,318 --> 00:36:41,494
It's like when you see people around you that you think could slot in, go for it.

439
00:36:41,494 --> 00:36:43,816
You know, it it's being opportunist.

440
00:36:43,816 --> 00:36:53,763
Um, you know, sometimes, you know, you know, oh, we absolutely need this role and you put
out a job description, you go to your network, and then maybe you go to, you know, a

441
00:36:53,763 --> 00:36:56,065
professional search firm to to help.

442
00:36:56,065 --> 00:36:59,807
But there are often when people come into your network the

443
00:36:59,807 --> 00:37:04,590
get excited about what you're doing and you kind of build a role around them.

444
00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:15,178
And and I think I've I've had more success with the latter of, you know, people that that
ultimately I think you need to hire for the mission, which was those those key points,

445
00:37:15,178 --> 00:37:19,371
because that's what's going to keep people here and motivated.

446
00:37:19,371 --> 00:37:22,713
And, you know, working in early stages is not easy.

447
00:37:22,713 --> 00:37:25,645
There's there's always more to do than you have time.

448
00:37:25,645 --> 00:37:28,727
Uh there's always a lot of challenges.

449
00:37:28,821 --> 00:37:36,551
You know, it's it's you need people that really buy into the mission that will take them
on the long journey.

450
00:37:37,001 --> 00:37:41,354
Yeah, I mean you talked about, you know, startups and I think was it who's who's the
founder of LinkedIn?

451
00:37:41,354 --> 00:37:41,924
Reed Hoffman?

452
00:37:41,924 --> 00:37:43,655
Is that right?

453
00:37:43,655 --> 00:37:48,078
So how do you handle this so much to do in not enough time?

454
00:37:48,078 --> 00:37:58,164
If you go out there online and and he's he's from the left, he's from the liberal side of
things, then this his perspective on what it takes in a startup doesn't necessarily align

455
00:37:58,164 --> 00:38:01,426
with younger generations that would align with him politically.

456
00:38:01,426 --> 00:38:03,037
If you go out on YouTube and

457
00:38:03,037 --> 00:38:05,529
And say Reed Hoffman, what it takes to be a startup.

458
00:38:05,529 --> 00:38:13,237
He talks about what him and the early team in LinkedIn, the sacrifices have to be made,
and the j it's incredible.

459
00:38:13,237 --> 00:38:18,381
And so have you found that that's been necessary with your company now?

460
00:38:18,381 --> 00:38:23,786
And if not, how are you managing this with new generations and new expectations?

461
00:38:23,786 --> 00:38:25,177
How's this going?

462
00:38:25,387 --> 00:38:36,033
think, you know, as a company gets more mature, it it becomes easier because you have more
resources, you can pay more, you can offer more benefits, et cetera.

463
00:38:36,033 --> 00:38:42,696
But but if you talk about founding teams and kind of first hires, uh this is very, very
hard.

464
00:38:42,696 --> 00:38:45,738
You know, it it's startups are not for everybody.

465
00:38:45,738 --> 00:38:47,919
It's just not easy.

466
00:38:47,919 --> 00:38:50,000
It's incredibly difficult.

467
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,047
Uh I think perseverance is one of the most important characteristics.

468
00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:56,527
as is curiosity.

469
00:38:56,527 --> 00:38:59,428
So you know, you it's so easy to give up.

470
00:38:59,428 --> 00:39:07,270
And I would say so many startups fail not because the market kills them, but because the
founders give up.

471
00:39:07,390 --> 00:39:09,991
It's it's it's really, really difficult.

472
00:39:09,991 --> 00:39:19,213
But if you believe in it, um and you have you have that vision, you know, you can get past
those difficult days.

473
00:39:19,344 --> 00:39:24,915
and that's why I also believe increasingly I I guess I've learned that B

474
00:39:26,087 --> 00:39:30,789
moonshot style opportunities are actually your help.

475
00:39:30,789 --> 00:39:41,814
Yes, they are harder, but they help you through the difficult days when you think about
what is the impact I want this company to have in in ten or twenty years' time.

476
00:39:42,794 --> 00:39:45,065
It could have massive impacts.

477
00:39:46,869 --> 00:39:54,787
So back to the rare earth stuff and you know, uh copper's not necessarily rare earth, but
you know, the the cobalt stuff is and how they have to mine that in Africa.

478
00:39:54,787 --> 00:40:03,025
But do you now have to be a market specialist on what you do with it with the rise and the
fall of the values of these things changing daily?

479
00:40:03,709 --> 00:40:06,641
It's it's an advantage and a disadvantage.

480
00:40:06,641 --> 00:40:12,004
So in in most startups, you have the big challenge of product market fit.

481
00:40:12,004 --> 00:40:16,066
Like, does anybody want the thing or service you're making?

482
00:40:16,066 --> 00:40:17,426
First question.

483
00:40:17,467 --> 00:40:23,480
Second, can you make money at the business model that you have at the pricing that you've
adopted?

484
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,712
And and and those are quite difficult to answer.

485
00:40:27,932 --> 00:40:33,535
When you are selling a commodity, in our case, nickel, cobalt, copper, and manganese.

486
00:40:33,771 --> 00:40:34,951
I don't have to worry about that.

487
00:40:34,951 --> 00:40:36,392
I don't set the price.

488
00:40:36,392 --> 00:40:42,694
There's actually, you know, like the London metal exchange, the Shanghai metal exchange,
or long term contracts.

489
00:40:42,694 --> 00:40:44,474
So the metal price fluctuates.

490
00:40:44,474 --> 00:40:47,895
Um and the demand is huge.

491
00:40:47,895 --> 00:40:54,417
Like last year for those four metals dominated by copper, it's like five hundred billion
dollars a year.

492
00:40:54,417 --> 00:40:57,538
And it's going to be a trillion in not too distant future.

493
00:40:57,558 --> 00:41:01,219
But what I have to worry about is where am I on the cost curve?

494
00:41:01,219 --> 00:41:02,155
Because I don't

495
00:41:02,155 --> 00:41:04,156
actually control the sell price.

496
00:41:04,276 --> 00:41:17,003
So I control my costs and we believe by our technical innovation, removing people out of
the collection, going after this nodule that's got four metals instead of one, without

497
00:41:17,003 --> 00:41:21,926
having to drill, we're going to be really low on the cost curve in like the first quarter.

498
00:41:21,926 --> 00:41:28,950
That provides me a great opportunity because even if the prices come down, I'll still make
money.

499
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:32,139
If the prices go up, I'll make even more money.

500
00:41:32,139 --> 00:41:36,201
But if you're at the higher end of the cost curve, you have to close your mind.

501
00:41:36,201 --> 00:41:41,864
Because if the prices come down, you're underwater, you lose every product you would sell.

502
00:41:41,864 --> 00:41:48,368
So you go into care and maintenance and you know, mothball the mine and and hope at some
point the prices go up.

503
00:41:48,368 --> 00:41:56,593
So uh I I think it's a big advantage because in my previous companies, finding that
product market fit took time and and iteration.

504
00:41:56,593 --> 00:41:58,313
And you just don't know.

505
00:41:58,334 --> 00:42:01,523
But, you know, I know that if I can deliver

506
00:42:01,523 --> 00:42:07,357
you know, high quality nickel, cobalt, copper manganese to the market at the lowest cost
than almost everybody.

507
00:42:07,357 --> 00:42:08,879
I'm gonna have a massive

508
00:42:09,663 --> 00:42:10,485
Yeah.

509
00:42:10,485 --> 00:42:17,595
Is the reason why you've targeted the area from Hawaii to Mexico, is that because is that
where those are that have the four metals in them?

510
00:42:17,641 --> 00:42:18,011
Yeah.

511
00:42:18,011 --> 00:42:18,291
Yeah.

512
00:42:18,291 --> 00:42:21,303
It's it's the most well known area.

513
00:42:21,303 --> 00:42:24,835
So there are sixteen actual licensed areas.

514
00:42:24,835 --> 00:42:26,156
You could go on a map.

515
00:42:26,156 --> 00:42:29,658
Each area is kinda like the size of Portugal or California.

516
00:42:29,658 --> 00:42:30,709
It's a big area.

517
00:42:30,709 --> 00:42:36,703
Um and we've been researching these areas for for thirty years or more.

518
00:42:36,703 --> 00:42:39,904
So there's there's a huge amount of data about them.

519
00:42:39,904 --> 00:42:41,355
Now there are other places.

520
00:42:41,355 --> 00:42:44,547
Japan has some, the Cook Islands do

521
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:50,445
Um, in fact even American Samoa around its federal waters there are these these nodules.

522
00:42:50,445 --> 00:42:54,970
But the the area between Hawaii and Mexico it's called the Claridon Clipperton zone.

523
00:42:54,970 --> 00:42:59,845
That is the most researched with the most areas and the most amount of data.

524
00:43:00,779 --> 00:43:11,662
So how do you go about I'm assuming like when you would have the rights to a mine, let's
say it was the gold rush um in the eighteen hundreds in the US, you would go and purchase

525
00:43:11,662 --> 00:43:14,494
the rights in a specific real estate area.

526
00:43:15,496 --> 00:43:22,023
Is that apply or do you just get a right to mine it in a broad geographical area with all
the companies that want to?

527
00:43:22,229 --> 00:43:24,620
No, it's it's highly regulated.

528
00:43:24,620 --> 00:43:29,881
So uh mining in the ocean follows kind of rules on land.

529
00:43:29,881 --> 00:43:34,202
So wherever the mine is, then there's typically a government entity.

530
00:43:34,202 --> 00:43:44,345
It could be a federal entity, it could be a state entity, it could be a local entity that
would have jurisdiction sometimes overlapping, and you have to get permission from them

531
00:43:44,345 --> 00:43:52,265
and you typically have to do a lot of environmental impact analysis to prove that the mine
is is not going to be a disaster.

532
00:43:52,265 --> 00:43:53,977
Now those bars vary.

533
00:43:53,977 --> 00:43:57,479
You know, in the States we have pretty high environmental rules.

534
00:43:57,549 --> 00:44:01,643
in China, in China controlled areas like Africa, pretty low.

535
00:44:01,643 --> 00:44:03,144
But you actually have to do that.

536
00:44:03,144 --> 00:44:07,107
And on the seabed, it's kind of exactly the same.

537
00:44:07,107 --> 00:44:10,290
But the question you might ask is, well, who is the regulator?

538
00:44:10,290 --> 00:44:16,825
So if it's 200 miles off the coast of a country, it's called the exclusive economic zone.

539
00:44:16,825 --> 00:44:18,837
It basically belongs to the country.

540
00:44:18,837 --> 00:44:22,009
And so it's no different than if it was on land.

541
00:44:22,023 --> 00:44:23,124
of that country.

542
00:44:23,124 --> 00:44:28,316
And so in many countries they use traditional mining rules from land.

543
00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:31,828
Some use oil and gas and and some invent new rules.

544
00:44:31,828 --> 00:44:36,711
In the case of the US, we use the same laws that govern offshore oil and gas.

545
00:44:36,711 --> 00:44:39,793
It's called the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act.

546
00:44:39,793 --> 00:44:48,137
And it's administer administered by the Department of the Interior, specifically a a
subgroup called the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management.

547
00:44:48,137 --> 00:44:51,719
And they offer leases and uh and regulate.

548
00:44:52,027 --> 00:44:57,010
If it happens to be in international waters, it's a little more complex.

549
00:44:57,010 --> 00:45:05,595
So there is a UN law that many countries have signed, but not the US, that is working on
the rule book, but they've been a bit slow.

550
00:45:05,595 --> 00:45:08,666
That rule book is called the Mining Code.

551
00:45:08,666 --> 00:45:14,559
The organization is called the International Seabed Authority, and it's headquartered in
Jamaica.

552
00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:20,981
But there's also a law that the US passed that predates this, called the Deep Sea Hard
Minerals Act.

553
00:45:20,981 --> 00:45:30,622
that Congress passed and uh President Trump signed an executive order about a year ago
that said, Well, I'm gonna dust off this law and actually use it.

554
00:45:30,622 --> 00:45:39,911
So now there's two paths and that's good because the UN path has been taking some time and
they haven't actually finished the mining

555
00:45:41,623 --> 00:45:49,681
The is there ever disagreements out in the ocean about who gets to mine what area?

556
00:45:50,379 --> 00:46:06,570
Well, we could be heading into that scenario because historically there had been um the UN
created framework and then this US one that was kind of not really super active, but now

557
00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:15,225
it's getting active and so that could create some particular um conflict, but let's see
how how that plays out.

558
00:46:15,295 --> 00:46:16,115
Yeah.

559
00:46:16,336 --> 00:46:18,407
So as we wrap up, I mean this is interesting.

560
00:46:18,407 --> 00:46:24,039
It's been a great conversation on informing my curiosity and all the listeners about uh
about this tech and what's happening.

561
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:33,104
But in all mining, it seems I've heard from the outside at times there's trade offs in
mining, good versus bad.

562
00:46:33,104 --> 00:46:40,487
What trade offs have to be made right now with the I would say limited tech we have with
where we're trying to go?

563
00:46:41,759 --> 00:46:58,559
Yeah, I mean th the industry of deep sea mining has been investigating, researching,
studying for fifty years and really I would say intense work for twenty five, but we don't

564
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:02,611
yet have commercial recovery permission.

565
00:47:03,071 --> 00:47:09,779
That's likely to happen over the next twelve months or so, and then the industry will ramp
into production.

566
00:47:09,779 --> 00:47:14,640
So like any brand new industry, it it takes a lot of work.

567
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:20,252
And there are a lot of environmentalists that that just don't want this industry to start.

568
00:47:20,252 --> 00:47:26,144
And I understand they're they're coming from that we've done a pretty bad job of mining on
land.

569
00:47:26,144 --> 00:47:31,205
Let's not go to the notion a pristine area we haven't done anything to and destroy it.

570
00:47:31,205 --> 00:47:33,376
And and I I buy into that.

571
00:47:33,376 --> 00:47:37,587
And that's why my company invented brand new technology.

572
00:47:37,621 --> 00:47:42,174
But the reality is the appetite and demand for these metals is not slowing down.

573
00:47:42,174 --> 00:47:44,696
If anything, it's going to accelerate.

574
00:47:44,756 --> 00:47:51,281
And we with our tech believe we could take from the ocean with much less impact.

575
00:47:51,281 --> 00:47:54,704
And we'll work with scientists to prove that and have studies.

576
00:47:54,704 --> 00:48:04,873
But you know, our opinion is that with our tech, you could come back a few days after we
have removed some of the nodules and you wouldn't be able to tell.

577
00:48:04,873 --> 00:48:09,385
Because ninety percent would still be there, any of the larger life would still be there.

578
00:48:09,385 --> 00:48:12,926
Compare that to a rainforest that's been completely destroyed.

579
00:48:12,926 --> 00:48:14,367
I think it's night and day.

580
00:48:14,367 --> 00:48:16,107
And there's no social impacts.

581
00:48:16,107 --> 00:48:23,030
You know, we know for a fact no humans live, you know, hundreds to thousands of miles off
the coast, three to four miles deep.

582
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:25,641
But they do live where we do mining on

583
00:48:27,787 --> 00:48:28,988
What do you think?

584
00:48:29,328 --> 00:48:36,454
and I'll hand it over to you after this question to to to wrap up and and say, hey, what's
the real message you're trying to drive home with your company and and through your

585
00:48:36,454 --> 00:48:38,006
branding and and through your PR?

586
00:48:38,006 --> 00:48:52,749
But um all your experience with, you know, Qualcomm and then selling your company to AMD,
do you have reflection for you internally on the high level skills, whatever those are

587
00:48:52,749 --> 00:48:56,081
that you would consider high level skills that you learned and developed there?

588
00:48:56,799 --> 00:49:00,848
What of those were transferable here?

589
00:49:02,783 --> 00:49:03,173
Yeah.

590
00:49:03,173 --> 00:49:06,976
So I I you know, I didn't actually work at Qualcomm, th they were a partner.

591
00:49:06,976 --> 00:49:10,509
I worked at ARM, um a a a semiconductor company.

592
00:49:10,509 --> 00:49:16,834
But um, you know, I think it's it's it's about, you know, being inspired by leaders.

593
00:49:16,854 --> 00:49:27,433
You know, in in some of the companies that I worked at, there were really aspirational
leaders that came in even though we were a tiny company at ARM and said, We're gonna be

594
00:49:27,433 --> 00:49:30,004
the number one, we're gonna be bigger than Intel.

595
00:49:30,225 --> 00:49:32,853
And that seemed incredible back

596
00:49:32,853 --> 00:49:38,587
you know, twenty five years ago or whatever when it was, but yet it was achieved.

597
00:49:38,587 --> 00:49:45,912
And so I think don't be scared about uh setting aspirational goals and going to it.

598
00:49:45,912 --> 00:49:49,754
You know, it's it's nothing holds you back but yourself.

599
00:49:49,754 --> 00:49:52,256
You know, believe that you can get there.

600
00:49:52,256 --> 00:49:57,789
If you believe in the mission, you can bring others with you and you can achieve the
impossible.

601
00:49:57,789 --> 00:50:05,744
And to hand it off to you for you to really talk about your intentionality around what
you're growing now, like coming on podcast, marketing, branding, PR, I want you to to wrap

602
00:50:05,744 --> 00:50:06,225
up with that.

603
00:50:06,225 --> 00:50:14,831
But was there is there anyone in the past, not just one person, but is there any one or
two or three people that you can look to like they really made an impact on my life?

604
00:50:14,831 --> 00:50:18,193
If it's not, if there's not one that just stands out, we don't have to make it up.

605
00:50:18,193 --> 00:50:19,504
Cause some people don't.

606
00:50:19,504 --> 00:50:25,158
They really just put their head down and they were around some good folks, but was there
anybody that significantly impacted you?

607
00:50:25,158 --> 00:50:27,391
And and I asked that to say, if so.

608
00:50:27,391 --> 00:50:28,066
What was it?

609
00:50:28,066 --> 00:50:29,362
What did they do?

610
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:30,579
Yeah.

611
00:50:30,579 --> 00:50:37,824
Um so the the the first CEO of ARM, um, you know, he got knighted, so Sir Robin Saxbury,
he's still a mentor.

612
00:50:37,824 --> 00:50:49,853
Um, you know, again, he was just so inspirational of like this is what we're going to do,
even though we were small, he he allowed us to believe that we could be big.

613
00:50:49,853 --> 00:50:53,035
And and and I think that is is so important.

614
00:50:53,035 --> 00:50:59,153
Um and so that that is something that has always kind of stood with me.

615
00:50:59,153 --> 00:51:04,007
Um the the other thing I think is also to to kind of trust your gut.

616
00:51:04,007 --> 00:51:11,494
You know, especially when you're dealing with technology risk, early stage, uh the data
isn't always there.

617
00:51:11,654 --> 00:51:14,767
You know, it's it's hindsight to say, well, I want to be data driven.

618
00:51:14,767 --> 00:51:23,044
Well of course we all do, but often we don't have the luxury, you know, and the
alternative is delay, wait.

619
00:51:23,305 --> 00:51:26,467
And so sometimes you have to go with with your gut.

620
00:51:26,629 --> 00:51:31,472
And and think about, you know, not all decisions are one way doors, right?

621
00:51:31,472 --> 00:51:36,704
Many decisions, even if you have to change, it's not that bad a a problem.

622
00:51:36,764 --> 00:51:49,301
Um and so coming back to speed, I mean it's far better to make a decision even if it's gut
led versus data led, than maybe waiting for six months time, um, because I think speed is

623
00:51:49,301 --> 00:51:50,361
more important.

624
00:51:50,495 --> 00:51:51,155
Yeah.

625
00:51:51,155 --> 00:51:55,458
So what's the overarching message as you build impossible metals?

626
00:51:55,458 --> 00:52:01,661
What's the overarching message that that you're really on, if it's different than the
conversation we've had about like what you're trying to do?

627
00:52:01,661 --> 00:52:04,982
Is it is it raise additional investment?

628
00:52:04,982 --> 00:52:09,745
Is it just exposing the company for a bigger brand for some for some marketing arm?

629
00:52:09,745 --> 00:52:14,887
What what's the real goal right now in two thousand twenty six and going forward over the
next year or two?

630
00:52:15,061 --> 00:52:27,811
Yeah, I think it's it's it's raising our profile and and and letting people realize that
this critical mineral situation that we're in, the national security risk, is is is real,

631
00:52:27,811 --> 00:52:32,145
it's big, but yet we have a solution to solve it.

632
00:52:32,225 --> 00:52:41,191
And we're doing it with with unique technology that I believe in time can be seen to
mitigate the environmental concerns.

633
00:52:41,191 --> 00:52:44,521
You know, we've gone to great lengths to design our system.

634
00:52:44,521 --> 00:52:47,775
to mitigate the concerns that people have.

635
00:52:47,775 --> 00:52:52,190
Now, do we have to do more to prove that, to get scientists to document it?

636
00:52:52,190 --> 00:52:54,343
Absolutely, and we're committed to doing it.

637
00:52:54,343 --> 00:53:05,625
But fundamentally, you know, we we we have a huge amount of innovation that can unlock one
of the biggest strategic vulnerabilities that the US has right now.

638
00:53:06,451 --> 00:53:08,895
Are you engaging with anybody beyond investors?

639
00:53:08,895 --> 00:53:16,937
Like are you having conversations at the level with some of the national security
provider, the folks building systems?

640
00:53:17,695 --> 00:53:19,226
Yeah, I we we are.

641
00:53:19,226 --> 00:53:26,991
We we're also, you know, talking to to the government, we're we're also talking to um to
to politicians on on the hill.

642
00:53:26,991 --> 00:53:32,464
I mean, I've now testified twice in front of Congress on deep sea mining.

643
00:53:32,464 --> 00:53:43,611
Um and that again I think is is something that's important for policymakers to to
understand the the importance that this new industry can deliver.

644
00:53:44,317 --> 00:53:45,247
Awesome.

645
00:53:45,538 --> 00:53:48,530
well, Oliver, CEO, co founder of Impossible Metals.

646
00:53:48,530 --> 00:53:50,889
Um, hey, thanks for bringing this to us.

647
00:53:50,889 --> 00:53:58,647
I think these things are I don't know what we do with it, those of ours that aren't in the
industry, but it helps us to inform our brains that we read articles, we talk about

648
00:53:58,647 --> 00:54:03,040
national security, the vulnerability globally on who's controlling these resources.

649
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,163
It's good for us to have this information in our heads so we're not wondering who's
telling us the truth.

650
00:54:07,163 --> 00:54:08,184
It seems like Mr.

651
00:54:08,184 --> 00:54:12,107
Oliver is an awesome resource for connecting us with that.

652
00:54:12,107 --> 00:54:12,575
So I

653
00:54:12,575 --> 00:54:13,939
I appreciate the conversation today.

654
00:54:13,939 --> 00:54:15,418
This was really informative.

655
00:54:15,615 --> 00:54:16,267
Yeah, likewise.

656
00:54:16,267 --> 00:54:20,552
Thank you for for the opportunity and yeah, it was a good a good discussion.

657
00:54:20,552 --> 00:54:21,641
So thanks again.

658
00:54:21,641 --> 00:54:22,928
Absolutely, thank you.