#205 - The Critical Minerals Crisis: Why the Future of AI Depends on Deep-Sea Mining | Oliver Gunasekara

0:00 Don't be scared about setting aspirational goals and going to it. Nothing holds you back but yourself. If you believe in the mission, you can bring others with you and you can achieve the impossible. Today on the Necessary Entrepreneur, we're joined by Oliver Gunasekara. Gunasekara. I did it almost right.

0:41 We had to get that last name correct, and it's close. But what a cool ass name. He's CEO and co-founder of Impossible Metals. Oliver has a background in semiconductors and spent years on leadership roles at Qualcomm, but today he's focused on a much bigger challenge, helping solve one of the biggest bottlenecks in the global shift to clean energy. His company's building autonomous underwater robots designed to collect critical minerals from the ocean floor, a solution that sits right at the intersection of innovation, environmental impact, and global demand. This conversation is about building in complexity and making decisions where there are no perfect answers and what it really take what it takes to take on a problem at a global scale.

1:24 So welcome to the episode, Oliver, and uh I guess we're talking globally today. Yeah, really excited to be here. Um that was a a really big intro, but I appreciate it and looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, let's live up to it. So taking us folks that have the layman perspective and not understanding or comprehending underwater, which is under deep sea beds, down in the the bed of the sea, talk to us about this and help us understand as if we just heard about it, but don't understand the complexities and what's really happening. What we can comprehend is, I think, drilling for oil. But I think I compare this to as you hand off and tell us.

2:05 It seems like I hear about one of these days maybe we can go to a meteor and there's trillions of dollars of rare earth minerals on these media. And I'm like, man, that's gotta be hard. But since this is on Earth under the seabed, I'm assuming it's similar minerals. And um, tell us all about this and what what it really is all about. Yeah, I think the the first place to start is, you know, mining is actually pretty essential to our way of life. You know, we don't think much about it. I didn't until I started this company. But if you look around, everything you see, it either was grown or it was mined. Everything.

2:45 So technology, energy, infrastructure, AI, you name it, it needs metals and materials out of the ground. And we don't think about that. But you know, we as humans, even when we were living in cages in caves and kind of shooting arrows, we were picking up material, flint maybe, putting it on the arrow. That was mining. So this is fundamental to our way of life. The problem is is that the where we get this material is out of sight. It's often in Africa or Indonesia or other places. And we don't really think about it. And and yet The supply chain now becomes very important because we realize we're all interconnected.

3:29 And what we're doing at Impossible Metals is building new technology to go to the deep ocean and pick up these little rocks. And I'm holding one up for for people that might be on video. This rock contains huge amounts of four metals: nickel, cobalt, copper, and manganese. And there's over $20 trillion worth. just lying between Hawaii and Mexico. So that's that's really the focus that we have on on picking these up with new technology. So let's say all those get picked up. Then do we start drilling on the seabed to access it there then?

4:14 Fortunately, the type of resource we're going after, this potato sized rock, is is formed on the seabed floor, not necessarily below or under. So they just lie on the seabed floor. So to pick them up, you literally have to pick them off the seabed floor. You don't have to drill, you don't have to blast, you don't have to tunnel. But the seafloor is pretty big and pretty deep. We're talking three to four miles deep. And so that does present unique challenges and typically hundreds or thousands of miles away from from any coastal lands. So it's a challenging environment, maybe not quite as challenging as going to space, but definitely very, very lucrative when we can get it to operate.

5:02 So since it's sitting on the seabed floor, why do we call it mining and not harvesting? When we go and get it. It's a great question and and and I think mining isn't really the right term because i i i it is more of harvesting or collecting. Um there are other types of minerals in the ocean that are more invasive, that do involve traditional cutting and blasting, um and and so i collectively they are put together as deep sea mining. But the the polymetallic nodules, the the the potato sized rocks that I I have here and we're focused on, those just lie on the seabed floor and and they always contain those four metals.

5:47 So what type of robotics do you have to build and design and the tech behind it to go and get Because how I can see it visually as a human, I'm like, that's easy, just reach your hand down in the water and pick one up. It's not so simple, but what has to be built that we don't already have to make it efficient to go down there and pick or harvest them? Yeah, I think the best way to answer that is kind of what has everyone else done? Because we s first started doing collector tests to pick up these nodules in the nineteen seventies. And the tech that they used was what is described as a dredging tractor with a riser system. So it's a huge machine, a bit like a combine harbester.

6:29 It gets lowered the three to four miles to the seabed floor. It has tracks like a tank, and then it sucks up. The nodules in the seabed, and then has a riser tube that takes that the three to four miles up to the support ship, where the nodules are are dewatered, the sediment is separated, and then that's pumped back into the ocean. So there are maybe half a dozen companies that have built this technology over the last 50 years. Uh but recently there's been a lot of environmental pushback on, well. We didn't realize there's actually a lot of life in the ocean. It's very unique life. Most of it is is microscopic.

7:09 It's bacteria, it's single cell organisms, and occasionally it's larger forms. But it is there is life. And so when I started the company, it was how could we take twenty-first century technology, technology like robotics and AI and computer vision and batteries and autonomy, and build a system that would have less impact? And that's ultimately what we built. And maybe I can briefly describe what we do is we use a swarm or a fleet of robots. Each robot is about the size of a 20-foot shipping container, so they're quite large.

7:50 They have a very big battery pack, like a truck that's electrically powered. And then they use a technology we invented called the buoyancy engine to move up and down the water column. And when they get caught, close to the seabed floor, they don't land, they hover. And they have a bunch of cameras and AI processing and robotic arms. And we basically use the cameras and the AI to control the arms, to pick the nodules one by one, put them on a kind of circulating water conveyor system, move them inside the vehicle and fill the vehicle. Because we're using the AI and the cameras, we can choose how much we pick up.

8:31 We can also avoid any visible life like an octopus and its eggs. And then once the vehicle's full, it uses the battery and buoyancy system to float to near the surface, where we have another robot on a crane that docks with it below the wave affected zone, and then that pulls it onto the ship. On the ship we empty the payload, the nodules into the storage of the ship. We swap the battery for one that's now fully charged. We do any maintenance and then we redeploy. And that's what we call the Eureka collection system. We'll give you a link to a YouTube video that shows how all of this works. So is it already profitable per excursion, or are you still trying to build further depth to make it more efficient, more profitable?

9:18 So we we we need a fleet of vehicles and we're at the point of scaling up now. So we we still have a a few more years to get to the point of commercial deployment. But with a fleet of vehicles we will absolutely be profitable. Um you know, we we think we could do one to two billion a year in revenue, um, and then have pretty high profit margins associated to that. Yeah, it seems like once you get the rare earths here, it's probably pretty easy on how that process goes then. Not saying you'll but right am I correct? Yeah, I mean you still have to process. Um, like all ore and and mining, um, the metals are not just in one location.

10:03 You've got to figure out how to separate them out of the the material that is is less valuable. And and that that takes a bit of time. Um but but once that's that's done, you can use traditional processing facilities to do that. And there's been some testing in Japan showing uh how how to do that. but ultimately we you know, here in the States we need to build that infrastructure. It's something that we've outsourced, but we need to have both the mining, uh in our case the s selective collection and also the processing. Do I'm just gonna call them rocks. You probably call something else, but Modules is is the technical term, but they're they're they're they're rocks.

10:46 We'll go with nodules. So if you go down there and you're watching it on camera and you can pick up just the nodules you want, but is it pretty much every piece of rock or nodule you see? Is that one you target, or do you have to evaluate each one with using AI tech as well? No, they're they're all kind of equally valuable. So the the grade, i.e. the amount of valuable metal inside each rock is constant for a given area. So the only thing we have to decide is which ones do we pick. They do vary a little bit in size. So we want to fill the vehicle as quickly as possible. So we'll prioritize the larger ones. But that's a policy decision. Uh we can choose how much we leave behind.

11:28 We think to be maximally precautionary at the start will leave something like ninety percent of the nodules uh behind and only remove ten. But really the AI is to control the arm and look for the life. You s having previous startups and even being in corporate America and then having exits, how do you go through all those and all this experience and how do you land on this opportunity? How's this happen? It it's it's it's quite bizarre because, you know, I had really a semiconductor background. You know, I I I worked at a British company called ARM that became quite successful. I was one of the early employees uh there, around 60 when when I joined.

12:13 But I've had a lot of exposure to robotics and AI and other forms of technology. And and I'm I'm probably more a business person today than a hands-on engineer. But I have an engineering background and I'm quite curious and and I know a little bit about a broad area. I'm not super deep in any one, but but quite broad. And you know, how I came across this area was after selling my last company to to AMD uh in twenty nineteen, um I I was like gonna go traveling, go take some time off, and then the pandemic happened and so I was kind of locked down. and had more time than than I knew exactly what to do and started researching.

12:58 And here in the Bay Area we actually had really bad wildfires at that time. And that got me quite interested in, you know, electrification and how do we move beyond um some of these um energy intensive and and uh emission intensive industries. And and so I ultimately discovered a company at the that's called Deep Green. They're now known as the the metals company. They're probably the leader in this space, public company now. Uh but their technology was basically an evolution of that nineteen seventies. It's had some some little upgrades, but it's fundamentally the same thing. And that's what led me to kind of say, well, why is there no brand new style?

13:42 Because what we can do today with semiconductors, with robotics, with batteries, with AI is just so different than fifty years ago. How important is speed? Because we're in an open market capitalist system. You're talking about it, it was here before you someone or two people or two companies are gonna win. How important is speed? It's really, really important. I um and speed and timing, I think the two are probably one of the two most important vectors for success in in entrepreneurial areas. Um, you know, speed, uh you know, as a startup, as a younger company, you always have less resources, less money, less people, which means less time to do things.

14:29 So uh operating with pace is is I think part of your your secret source. It's your uniqueness. And and so you you you have to leverage that. And almost everything you do is a signal to others. And and and so pace I think is is really, really important. but market timing is also pretty important. I'm I'm I'm also a believer that if you're doing something in the hardware domain that is quite difficult, uh it's probably good at the time you start it. Most people think you're crazy. It's not obvious. because if it is, everyone else piles in and all the big guys and it's just very, very hard.

15:09 What you want is you see the world a little differently to others. You believe this thing that most people think at the time you create it is completely insane will become mainstream. And that's difficult because you're never going to get that right 100% of the time. But if you do, by the time it becomes more mature, you've built enough leads, you've invented enough technology You've got IP, you've got trade secrets, you've got customer engagements, you've got partnerships that you now become quite valuable because you've got that head start. And so I think both speed and market timing are just crucial. Did you in your previous companies, um, did you raise funds there too or did you bootstrap those?

15:53 Started with bootstrapping but but we were able to raise um some cash as well. So did that did that experience help you then come here and raise a greater amount of money in the beginning? Yeah, uh absolutely. Um, you know, I think it's always good to bootstrap and uh you you want to get angel investment early because those angels can help as well. You know, if people are willing to give you money off your idea when there's nothing else, that's I think a strong signal that that you can convince people and there are other believers. Uh and and And the end of the day, you know, startups are about making something, you know, and you you you don't raise all the money for the life of the company on day one because you'd you'd never get the right valuation.

16:48 You you raise it in in in chunks, and to get to the next chunk, you've got to deliver something. Either something you've built or something, a commercial arrangement or some marketing factors. that are outside of your control but still important. And and and so you know I think getting that validation is really important. Yeah. So we're talking about sales, right? And so you coming from the engineering background and right. So you had to put on a new hat and learn a new skill to become a salesperson. I I I did, but fortunately I didn't do that on I would say my own dime.

17:28 I I kind of did it at larger companies. So I did that quite early in my career and kind of moved into the the business development, the marketing, the sales roles. And and I think that that really helps. It helps you understand how to build long term relationships, how to do negotiations, um, how to work with customers and and partners. Um and so I think personally I think It's good to do a lot of learning without doing it at your own company if you can help it. Because there's a lot to learn and and we all learn, in my view, more from failure than from success. Yeah. Um, do you when you're raising funds, because you're in this next level of you're gonna have to raise millions more to take it for you to get to this billion dollar revenue number, you're gonna have to raise millions more, I'm assuming.

18:23 Yes. Okay. So it's like AI now, right? The amount of revenue that's gonna that is necessary now to build these infrastructures out is enormous. So for you to is it is it nerve wracking to you to raise the money? Or is it exciting? When we're talking honestly, maybe the billionaire investor will will be listening, but I think we could admit if it's tough and nerve wracking. But do you like it or is it tough? I like it, but it's also about having an incredible team around. You know, some some of the people that we have in the company, you know, like our our our chief growth officer, um, you know, uh he he's he's just incredible at evangelising and and telling the story, you know, better than I am.

19:06 You know, I I think the key is building a team, you know, there are certain things that I'm I'm good at, there's certain things I'm not as good at you know, and and not great at. And You know, what makes successful companies is that team where you have complementary skills. What you think your go to leadership philosophy is? What's your basis? Yeah, I think I think you want to act as you would like others to behave towards you and and never ask anyone to do something you're not willing to do yourself. Um, you know, for me, I think it's important to be really approachable and, you know, have have respect for everybody in the organization, no matter where they sit in the org chart.

19:54 You know, good ideas can come from anywhere. They don't just come from the C suite. And often the more senior you get, the more abstracted you can be. And so having that ear for people that that are around you, I think is just really important. So with the sales hat on, why is impossible metals gonna win in this space? I think it's down to um technology team and execution. You know, we've we've now spent almost six years building this unique technology that is considerably less expensive and less environmental and and I think will set us up to to have you know to be the dominant solution.

20:45 that that will roll forward. But we have a lot of execution ahead of us. You know, we've we've built two generations of robot. We're working on the third. We have to scale it. We have to build out a fleet. There's there's a lot of hard work ahead of us. But I I think we could be a major player. And just generally talking about the industry, I I like to describe deep sea mining as kind of where oil and gas was in the nineteen seventies. You know, oil and gas was Predominantly on land, onshore. And yet technology innovation made it possible to now go offshore. And we roll forward fifty years and a third of the market comes from offshore, employing millions of people, generating, you know, probably, you know, huge amounts of revenues.

21:36 Um and and that's where mining is going to go. So Do you think the oil companies for did they foresee that? They they probably did, right? That they probably built the models out that after this, the tech we don't have it yet, but we know it's gonna catch up and then we'll take the knowledge and the ability and go offshore. I'm assuming that's the case. Yeah, I don't honestly know. It would be a great case study to to look into. My suspicion is that it needed a certain type of entrepreneurial company that was had a higher risk profile than the established players.

22:16 Um and so I don't know, but my guess would be that there were maybe some newer players that were had had a higher tolerance for risk, were willing to do more innovation. That pioneered the market, and then those ultimately were acquired and the the rest of the industry followed. That's that's my working assumption, but but yeah, we should do some research and figure. So I weed that to this. Once all the nodules are picked up in fifty years, what can this tech that you're building be compounded into and further mining? Well, there's there's a lot of dual use of our tech. I mean the the the ocean is is huge. It's seventy one percent of our planet.

22:58 We haven't explored huge amounts of it. only about a quarter or so has been mapped at high resolution. And and so the tech can absolutely be used to uh help in in the mapping and surveying and collection of of data. Um so I think that's that's a big application uh for for what we're doing. So are you are you a robotics and tech company versus a mining? That's a that's a a debate that we have quite quite often. I think the reality is we're a bit of both. Um, but I think what really sets us apart is the technology. Uh but ultimately, you know, our our mission is is to deliver these metals that the world needs.

23:43 And I think, you know, here in in in the States, we have to re-energize some of the industrial markets. You know, we've outsourced for too long key parts of our industrialization. And and mining and the metals is almost at the front part of that. Without those, you won't be able to build AI data centers or infrastructure. Um and so, you know, I think it's just a really important thing that we need to get going on. So can we go to this AI data center real quick since you just brought it up? I heard, I don't know if it was the CEO of Nvidia, I don't know who it was.

24:23 It might have been someone else. That it probably wasn't him, where they said that they're really concerned for 2030 because the infrastructure inside these data centers are gonna need to be renewed just like. Computers are for us. And so even though it's a multi-billion dollar build now, this person, I forget who it was, their concern is it's going to be a multi-billion dollar build every five years to update them. And he said he doesn't see it was a projection out five years that there would be a major bust in that business because of that.

25:05 Yeah, I think that there are a lot of challenges. Um, workforce, you know, are are there enough blue collar jobs to electricians, plumbers, you know, this is this is very, very critical. I mean, right now they're they're having to pay them huge amounts, uh, but there's still there's limits. Um I I think that's a challenge. Uh where we're focused on is the raw materials. You know, a data center uses a huge amount of copper. You know, it's just in all the wiring, all the electrification. And, you know, things like nickel and cobalt are often used in specialized alloys. So so they get used in batteries and and other things. So just getting enough of this material is is another challenge.

25:48 And, you know, for twenty five years or more we've outsourced to Chinese controlled mines. And and that's a problem as we're you know, some say we're we're in a cold war with China right now and You know, with the trade negotiations you see how they manipulate the rare earths. Um and, you know, not having our own supply I think puts us at a huge strategic vulnerability. For us to understand this a little bit more, we all understand this brand Tesla. Let me try to make these connections if I can connect what you're doing with impossible metals in this mining. Because there's a big debate there too. Is he a car company or a tech company? And what I believe is they're a tech company, because as I talk to my friends who have EVs who aren't even Tesla, they stop at the Tesla superchargers to charge their vehicles.

26:39 So and they're paying a lot of money now. To charge those. I just had a friend who went on a trip from Cincinnati to Nashville. And there and back, he spent four hundred and fifty dollars at superchargers to charge his Chevrolet EV on the round trip. And now he was paying more because he wanted to charge it fast. So he would charge it full in 60 minutes, sitting at like a Buckeys or something. Um so that's the argument. Was Elon looking. Decades ahead on what we were going to need when no one else saw it. He wasn't building EV cars. He was building infrastructure that everybody else was going to use and buy.

27:21 Yeah, I mean I I I think, you know, Elon is is one of the great visionaries. You know, he he sees the future before most of us do. Um but I definitely think he's a tech company. I I think long term if you look back at Tesla, it will be known for maybe autonomous driving and humanoid robots, not so much for cars. Yep. Yeah. So what do you take from that? I mean, I'm sure in s put put if he's as popular as he used to be, right? Tesla used to be the darling and all politics gets into everything. But is he in San Jose in Silicon Valley, is he held up at like the top of the podium?

28:02 I I I think his political activities have made him quite unpopular, especially with with the left um side of the world. But, you know, if you just treat him as an entrepreneur, I I think he is the leader of the world on that front. You know, his companies have built incredible technologies, you know, things that that people have never ever seen before, and he scaled them. And, you know, he's often criticized, it it he he he doesn't hit his dates, it takes longer. But he's doing like like us in some regards, the impossible, he's doing things that have never been done before.

28:44 And yeah, he may take a little longer than he initially thinks, but I've never seen him actually fail, like not deliver. And you know, I was on a personal note, I was super uh lucky over a year ago to go and witness one of the SpaceX launches of the super heavy starship. And and that was I think launch five, I think it was, when when they actually caught the rocket. So I was on the beach watching this, you know, massive rocket come back to the tower and being caught by the chopsticks with, you know, I don't know, a few thousand other people all screaming like we just knew did no idea what was going to happen.

29:27 And that that is an experience and memory that will be with me for forever. It was just incredible. You being in Silicon Valley and being in tech for a couple decades, the people like him and Steve Jobs, let's go away from the unpopularity of their characteristics at times, but the things that they've accomplished and some before them, um what inspiration do we take? And there's probably people that we don't know their names that you know about too. What inspiration do you take from, let's say, the top 10 folks in tech, whether we know them or not, that you all in the industry have. What do you take from them? What type of leadership or what type of indirect mentorship for you to build and run your companies?

30:07 What do you take from them to implement? Yeah, I'm I'm I mean, I think, you know, Elon has this uh thing called the algorithm of which is like this five points that he uses in all of his engineering companies. Like, you know, uh question the requirements, I think is the first one of the five and and you know, simplify and then automates right at the end. I don't remember exactly all of them. But I think that that that's just general great hygiene for anyone that's building really advanced systems. But I I I think the generalization of these people is the the vision that they have.

30:47 I mean I I I grew up in England where we're kind of conservative. We don't make big bold ideas. And and this is what America's amazing at, right? It's it's the moonshots. It's like we're gonna put a person on the moon. Like, you know, as we're recording this, Optimus II is about to head to the moon. That's that's incredible. You know, these these are the things that I think can inspire people that we're doing things that are difficult, hard, never been done before. But if you get people behind the mission, you get incredible talent that does incredible work. And I think if you look at a Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and others, they were able to put out an incredible vision and inspire brilliant teams around them.

31:39 to execute and deliver. And, you know, that's a lot to live up to. But, you know, what we're trying to do here is is not easy. It's hard. And the reason I kind of called the company Impossible Metals is everyone said it can't be done. You you know, there's a one way to do it, these dredging tractors. You cannot use autonomy. You cannot control that number of robots. You know, it's just too complex. But we have an incredible team that takes those challenges every day and moves forward and it doesn't mean it doesn't always work. We have a lot of failures, but we learn and keep going. So what do you and therefore them when you sell them the vision, what do you get most excited about?

32:20 Is it just about generally doing the impossible, taking any general idea and say, let's do the impossible? They said it can't be done. Or is there a certain impossible that's beyond just picking up the rocks on the seabed floor? Like is it what's the vision? Because if it's that simple, because we built a whole idea, one of the most popular movies ever was The Titanic. And, you know, they're talking about, you know. Finding it and securing it and going down picking it up. Look how much look how many people and mean people even passed away doing it, just going down and seeing the Titanic. So is it just being somebody challenging you to do the impossible and saying you can't? There's a certain amount of human beings that like to take that on, or is there sp a specific impossible that you're behind?

33:06 It's for me, it's a combination. I love the technology. I love inventing new things, doing something for the first time. You know, I'm I'm definitely the type of founder that likes to go from nothing to something. And there are others that love running big public companies and, you know, doing quarterly earnings. That's that's not me. I I really like the early stage of like we've got to figure this all out. But it goes beyond that. You've got to inspire a team and that's about the mission. And and for us it's about, you know, we need these for national security.

33:46 Like China just controls it all. That's not good. So that's another big motivator. The second is environmentally, if you look at how we get our medals today, let's take nickel. Seventy percent of the world's nickel is mined in the islands of Indonesia. But unfortunately, it's right below the rainforest, literally directly below. So you have to destroy the whole rainforest, all of the biodiversity, all of the life, all of the carbon. Often there are indigenous people that live there that are kind of forced out. And then you have to process. And they use a really dirty way of processing. It's called HPOW, high pressure acid leaching.

34:27 It uses coal power, it uses a lot of acid, there's a lot of pollution, the fishing gets destroyed. So the social impacts to people, the environmental impacts, uh and the fact that, you know, we have incredible technology we can invent, it's important for national security. And then at the end, if we do it and execute, we're going to make a lot of money for everyone. It's a it's the package of all. And I think, you know, different people have different parts of that prioritization, but together, I think it makes it really compelling. When you're talking to investors, how much do you think they really that both are really important?

35:11 I think it depends on the investor. I mean, some investors you know care an awful lot about the environment and social side of things. Uh others are are very, very focused ultimately on getting a return. I mean, that's that's that's why they're investing. And in the early stages, I would say you can attract angel investors that, of course, want to make a return, but they want to be associated with really cool technology. So oh With investors they they crossed the line. And and again, we didn't talk about national security, but I suspect that when we do have some investors that invest purely on national security as well.

35:51 So um like everything, it's not black and white. It's a spectrum and some will prioritize others, but all I think have a factor to play. Yeah. So we talked about team. It's been so important to you. You build the vision, get them to buy into it, but also you talked about your chief chief growth officer. What has been your approach, all this experience bringing it forward now with Impossible Metterns? What's been your approach to hiring not just what we would consider key positions, but what's been your approach this time around with this this company to hiring? How have you learned to do it the best? Yeah, I think it's be flexible.

36:33 It's like when you see people around you that you think could slot in, go for it. You know, it it's being opportunist. Um, you know, sometimes, you know, you know, oh, we absolutely need this role and you put out a job description, you go to your network, and then maybe you go to, you know, a professional search firm to to help. But there are often when people come into your network the get excited about what you're doing and you kind of build a role around them. And and I think I've I've had more success with the latter of, you know, people that that ultimately I think you need to hire for the mission, which was those those key points, because that's what's going to keep people here and motivated.

37:19 And, you know, working in early stages is not easy. There's there's always more to do than you have time. Uh there's always a lot of challenges. You know, it's it's you need people that really buy into the mission that will take them on the long journey. Yeah, I mean you talked about, you know, startups and I think was it who's who's the founder of LinkedIn? Reed Hoffman? Is that right? So how do you handle this so much to do in not enough time? If you go out there online and and he's he's from the left, he's from the liberal side of things, then this his perspective on what it takes in a startup doesn't necessarily align with younger generations that would align with him politically.

38:01 If you go out on YouTube and And say Reed Hoffman, what it takes to be a startup. He talks about what him and the early team in LinkedIn, the sacrifices have to be made, and the j it's incredible. And so have you found that that's been necessary with your company now? And if not, how are you managing this with new generations and new expectations? How's this going? think, you know, as a company gets more mature, it it becomes easier because you have more resources, you can pay more, you can offer more benefits, et cetera. But but if you talk about founding teams and kind of first hires, uh this is very, very hard.

38:42 You know, it it's startups are not for everybody. It's just not easy. It's incredibly difficult. Uh I think perseverance is one of the most important characteristics. as is curiosity. So you know, you it's so easy to give up. And I would say so many startups fail not because the market kills them, but because the founders give up. It's it's it's really, really difficult. But if you believe in it, um and you have you have that vision, you know, you can get past those difficult days. and that's why I also believe increasingly I I guess I've learned that B moonshot style opportunities are actually your help.

39:30 Yes, they are harder, but they help you through the difficult days when you think about what is the impact I want this company to have in in ten or twenty years' time. It could have massive impacts. So back to the rare earth stuff and you know, uh copper's not necessarily rare earth, but you know, the the cobalt stuff is and how they have to mine that in Africa. But do you now have to be a market specialist on what you do with it with the rise and the fall of the values of these things changing daily? It's it's an advantage and a disadvantage. So in in most startups, you have the big challenge of product market fit.

40:12 Like, does anybody want the thing or service you're making? First question. Second, can you make money at the business model that you have at the pricing that you've adopted? And and and those are quite difficult to answer. When you are selling a commodity, in our case, nickel, cobalt, copper, and manganese. I don't have to worry about that. I don't set the price. There's actually, you know, like the London metal exchange, the Shanghai metal exchange, or long term contracts. So the metal price fluctuates. Um and the demand is huge. Like last year for those four metals dominated by copper, it's like five hundred billion dollars a year.

40:54 And it's going to be a trillion in not too distant future. But what I have to worry about is where am I on the cost curve? Because I don't actually control the sell price. So I control my costs and we believe by our technical innovation, removing people out of the collection, going after this nodule that's got four metals instead of one, without having to drill, we're going to be really low on the cost curve in like the first quarter. That provides me a great opportunity because even if the prices come down, I'll still make money. If the prices go up, I'll make even more money. But if you're at the higher end of the cost curve, you have to close your mind.

41:36 Because if the prices come down, you're underwater, you lose every product you would sell. So you go into care and maintenance and you know, mothball the mine and and hope at some point the prices go up. So uh I I think it's a big advantage because in my previous companies, finding that product market fit took time and and iteration. And you just don't know. But, you know, I know that if I can deliver you know, high quality nickel, cobalt, copper manganese to the market at the lowest cost than almost everybody. I'm gonna have a massive Yeah. Is the reason why you've targeted the area from Hawaii to Mexico, is that because is that where those are that have the four metals in them?

42:17 Yeah. Yeah. It's it's the most well known area. So there are sixteen actual licensed areas. You could go on a map. Each area is kinda like the size of Portugal or California. It's a big area. Um and we've been researching these areas for for thirty years or more. So there's there's a huge amount of data about them. Now there are other places. Japan has some, the Cook Islands do Um, in fact even American Samoa around its federal waters there are these these nodules. But the the area between Hawaii and Mexico it's called the Claridon Clipperton zone. That is the most researched with the most areas and the most amount of data.

43:00 So how do you go about I'm assuming like when you would have the rights to a mine, let's say it was the gold rush um in the eighteen hundreds in the US, you would go and purchase the rights in a specific real estate area. Is that apply or do you just get a right to mine it in a broad geographical area with all the companies that want to? No, it's it's highly regulated. So uh mining in the ocean follows kind of rules on land. So wherever the mine is, then there's typically a government entity. It could be a federal entity, it could be a state entity, it could be a local entity that would have jurisdiction sometimes overlapping, and you have to get permission from them and you typically have to do a lot of environmental impact analysis to prove that the mine is is not going to be a disaster.

43:52 Now those bars vary. You know, in the States we have pretty high environmental rules. in China, in China controlled areas like Africa, pretty low. But you actually have to do that. And on the seabed, it's kind of exactly the same. But the question you might ask is, well, who is the regulator? So if it's 200 miles off the coast of a country, it's called the exclusive economic zone. It basically belongs to the country. And so it's no different than if it was on land. of that country. And so in many countries they use traditional mining rules from land. Some use oil and gas and and some invent new rules. In the case of the US, we use the same laws that govern offshore oil and gas.

44:36 It's called the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act. And it's administer administered by the Department of the Interior, specifically a a subgroup called the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management. And they offer leases and uh and regulate. If it happens to be in international waters, it's a little more complex. So there is a UN law that many countries have signed, but not the US, that is working on the rule book, but they've been a bit slow. That rule book is called the Mining Code. The organization is called the International Seabed Authority, and it's headquartered in Jamaica. But there's also a law that the US passed that predates this, called the Deep Sea Hard Minerals Act.

45:20 that Congress passed and uh President Trump signed an executive order about a year ago that said, Well, I'm gonna dust off this law and actually use it. So now there's two paths and that's good because the UN path has been taking some time and they haven't actually finished the mining The is there ever disagreements out in the ocean about who gets to mine what area? Well, we could be heading into that scenario because historically there had been um the UN created framework and then this US one that was kind of not really super active, but now it's getting active and so that could create some particular um conflict, but let's see how how that plays out.

46:15 Yeah. So as we wrap up, I mean this is interesting. It's been a great conversation on informing my curiosity and all the listeners about uh about this tech and what's happening. But in all mining, it seems I've heard from the outside at times there's trade offs in mining, good versus bad. What trade offs have to be made right now with the I would say limited tech we have with where we're trying to go? Yeah, I mean th the industry of deep sea mining has been investigating, researching, studying for fifty years and really I would say intense work for twenty five, but we don't yet have commercial recovery permission.

47:03 That's likely to happen over the next twelve months or so, and then the industry will ramp into production. So like any brand new industry, it it takes a lot of work. And there are a lot of environmentalists that that just don't want this industry to start. And I understand they're they're coming from that we've done a pretty bad job of mining on land. Let's not go to the notion a pristine area we haven't done anything to and destroy it. And and I I buy into that. And that's why my company invented brand new technology. But the reality is the appetite and demand for these metals is not slowing down. If anything, it's going to accelerate.

47:44 And we with our tech believe we could take from the ocean with much less impact. And we'll work with scientists to prove that and have studies. But you know, our opinion is that with our tech, you could come back a few days after we have removed some of the nodules and you wouldn't be able to tell. Because ninety percent would still be there, any of the larger life would still be there. Compare that to a rainforest that's been completely destroyed. I think it's night and day. And there's no social impacts. You know, we know for a fact no humans live, you know, hundreds to thousands of miles off the coast, three to four miles deep. But they do live where we do mining on What do you think?

48:29 and I'll hand it over to you after this question to to to wrap up and and say, hey, what's the real message you're trying to drive home with your company and and through your branding and and through your PR? But um all your experience with, you know, Qualcomm and then selling your company to AMD, do you have reflection for you internally on the high level skills, whatever those are that you would consider high level skills that you learned and developed there? What of those were transferable here? Yeah. So I I you know, I didn't actually work at Qualcomm, th they were a partner. I worked at ARM, um a a a semiconductor company.

49:10 But um, you know, I think it's it's it's about, you know, being inspired by leaders. You know, in in some of the companies that I worked at, there were really aspirational leaders that came in even though we were a tiny company at ARM and said, We're gonna be the number one, we're gonna be bigger than Intel. And that seemed incredible back you know, twenty five years ago or whatever when it was, but yet it was achieved. And so I think don't be scared about uh setting aspirational goals and going to it. You know, it's it's nothing holds you back but yourself. You know, believe that you can get there.

49:52 If you believe in the mission, you can bring others with you and you can achieve the impossible. And to hand it off to you for you to really talk about your intentionality around what you're growing now, like coming on podcast, marketing, branding, PR, I want you to to wrap up with that. But was there is there anyone in the past, not just one person, but is there any one or two or three people that you can look to like they really made an impact on my life? If it's not, if there's not one that just stands out, we don't have to make it up. Cause some people don't. They really just put their head down and they were around some good folks, but was there anybody that significantly impacted you? And and I asked that to say, if so. What was it? What did they do? Yeah. Um so the the the first CEO of ARM, um, you know, he got knighted, so Sir Robin Saxbury, he's still a mentor.

50:37 Um, you know, again, he was just so inspirational of like this is what we're going to do, even though we were small, he he allowed us to believe that we could be big. And and and I think that is is so important. Um and so that that is something that has always kind of stood with me. Um the the other thing I think is also to to kind of trust your gut. You know, especially when you're dealing with technology risk, early stage, uh the data isn't always there. You know, it's it's hindsight to say, well, I want to be data driven. Well of course we all do, but often we don't have the luxury, you know, and the alternative is delay, wait.

51:23 And so sometimes you have to go with with your gut. And and think about, you know, not all decisions are one way doors, right? Many decisions, even if you have to change, it's not that bad a a problem. Um and so coming back to speed, I mean it's far better to make a decision even if it's gut led versus data led, than maybe waiting for six months time, um, because I think speed is more important. Yeah. So what's the overarching message as you build impossible metals? What's the overarching message that that you're really on, if it's different than the conversation we've had about like what you're trying to do? Is it is it raise additional investment?

52:04 Is it just exposing the company for a bigger brand for some for some marketing arm? What what's the real goal right now in two thousand twenty six and going forward over the next year or two? Yeah, I think it's it's it's raising our profile and and and letting people realize that this critical mineral situation that we're in, the national security risk, is is is real, it's big, but yet we have a solution to solve it. And we're doing it with with unique technology that I believe in time can be seen to mitigate the environmental concerns. You know, we've gone to great lengths to design our system. to mitigate the concerns that people have.

52:47 Now, do we have to do more to prove that, to get scientists to document it? Absolutely, and we're committed to doing it. But fundamentally, you know, we we we have a huge amount of innovation that can unlock one of the biggest strategic vulnerabilities that the US has right now. Are you engaging with anybody beyond investors? Like are you having conversations at the level with some of the national security provider, the folks building systems? Yeah, I we we are. We we're also, you know, talking to to the government, we're we're also talking to um to to politicians on on the hill. I mean, I've now testified twice in front of Congress on deep sea mining.

53:32 Um and that again I think is is something that's important for policymakers to to understand the the importance that this new industry can deliver. Awesome. well, Oliver, CEO, co founder of Impossible Metals. Um, hey, thanks for bringing this to us. I think these things are I don't know what we do with it, those of ours that aren't in the industry, but it helps us to inform our brains that we read articles, we talk about national security, the vulnerability globally on who's controlling these resources. It's good for us to have this information in our heads so we're not wondering who's telling us the truth. It seems like Mr. Oliver is an awesome resource for connecting us with that. So I I appreciate the conversation today.

54:13 This was really informative. Yeah, likewise. Thank you for for the opportunity and yeah, it was a good a good discussion. So thanks again. Absolutely, thank you.