#225 - Speed Is a Weapon: Brian FitzGerald on Loyalty, Crisis, and a 65-Year-Old Startup

0:00 I will say if you want this role or you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to love it so much that you're going to commit everything to it. All right, here we are back for another episode of The Necessary Entrepreneur. We're in studio today and we have our guest in Boston, but we just talked for 15 minutes about world travel. And ~ so today's guest is Brian FitzGerald.

0:41 He's a CEO of Grand Circle Corporation. It's a family of travel brands focused on Americans 50 and older, including Overseas Adventure Travel and Grand Circle Travel. Brian spent more than 15 years with this company, working his way from finance and marketing into CEO role in 2019. He also led the company through the massive disruption of COVID nineteen. It's wild we're still talking about it, but it's affecting the world, and the loss of its founder and chairman Alan Lewis. Today we'll talk about leading a sixty five year old company through major change, what it takes to keep a business moving through uncertainty, and why Brian believes travel has the power to change people's lives. Brian, welcome. Thank you, Mark. Yeah man. ~ so why does this gonna be a great conversation about travel if the if the next forty five minutes goes how the previous fifteen went, it's gonna be fun. But why does travel have the power to change people's lives?

1:33 What do you believe? think it's all about people. It it's it's not only sharing new experiences with like minded travelers. It's about the people you meet along the way. I in all of my travels, the people I've met in the stores and those interactions or what I bring home, it's not the pictures of the pyramids or the Eiffel Tower that I talk about. It's the stores and that connection, ~ it's incredibly powerful stuff. Yeah. Does this go back to ~ you know how we on a lot of podcasts, ~ and the top ones and what we're building here, people will psychoanalyze where an eight year old and a twelve year old and an eighteen year old and tell the wife story.

2:13 But how does does this go through your mind at all as you're processing your role as a CEO of a fifteen hundred plus comp employee company and plus you have another fifteen hundred people who work around the world on your tours and your business? Do you ever sit back in your chair? Do you have time and you're like, How did I end up here? Absolutely. And then ~ I even go a step further and think about the twenty five hundred vendors and local small business owners that ~ help partner with us in a hundred plus countries around the world. ~ yeah, i it's I I'm truly blessed. I'm living ~ in all the the the scenarios. This is absolutely ~ my favorite one.

2:56 I'm very ~ lucky to be where I am today and proud to carry on what ~ the tradition of this incredible company. I mean, my job is to help change people's lives. How many people get to say that? A lot say it, I don't think many actually do. Right? Telling you we live up to it here. And we do it three very distinct ways. I mean, through immersive travel experiences. As we discuss, you're you're a fellow traveler, nothing's gonna change your life like travel to expand your worldview, to connect with people in different ~ communities and cultures. ~ number two, we do it through the Grand Circle Foundation. Since the early nineties, ~ the family has founded the Grand Circle Foundation have donated over two hundred and sixteen million dollars given back to the communities where we travel. Really leaving an impact to the community if they give us so much.

3:48 And then the third one I've been a beneficiary of is through leadership development. As you said, I started here in the foundation as a financial analyst. And I did mutual fund accounting before this. ~ to be CEO of this incredible company today, this company has changed my life. So other than the 15 years of experience with the company coming up through the ranks and leadership development, are there some things you can point to? Cause here's what a lot of people want to ask. They'll look at people who've become a CEO of a company like yours. They'll do the same thing of somebody in the entertainment business or a sports figure. And there's such an outlandish outcome that they're seeing, that the role that you've achieved, and they're like, Well, how do I become that? Right. They want to ask these general statements.

4:28 When someone that's younger, imagine the 15 a year ago Brian. Would have asked this Brian, how do you become the CEO? You know, ~ there's a some books on this too. What got you here isn't gonna get you there. It really is different at each phase of my career. I mean, very early in my career was being hungry, being curious, willing to ~ go beyond, you know, what my job description was to try to connect bigger themes and how can I connect to ~ the goal of the company more and how can I play a bigger role? ~ so I would say early in my career was curiosity is the most important thing. And then connecting with people outside of your immediate area really pays off.

5:13 Those relationships across the business will bring opportunities to them. ~ I would say the next phase of my career was really just a bias for action and an openness to you don't have to have all the answers, but great questions and getting help around the most important things that are going to move the business. You'll have an outsized impact on that business. When you understand what is the 20% that's going to lead to the 80%, and then just putting the issues on the table to collaborate on, ~ it's a mindset flip of saying, I have to have all the right answers. I have to be a subject matter expert to, hey guys, if today we just focused on these three things as a team and left here with a great action that we could test with urgency.

6:03 That's gonna move the business the most. And so it's been an evolution over time. And I would say now it's it's much more on servant leadership and how can I support the leaders in the business who are driving it the most and and ~ clear blockers. I mean, we we always say the only way we're gonna beat our goals is if we focus on opportunities, what's working, and how do we pour more gas on that? Now, in order to do that, you have to remove the hot issues and the blockers for the organization. And so much more of my job today is just doing that, is supporting the leader and say, what are your issues? What's working? How do we allocate more time and resources to that? So I'd say it's been really three distinct ~ chapters in my growth here, but an openness, a curiosity, a bias for action and failing faster and not being stuck, but a willingness to read and react has served me incredibly well and and those around me.

7:01 Hmm. So when you talk about failing faster, this seems to be a balance that a lot of people ~ are trying to find. The word balance is weird, but they're trying to find the balance between how much do you solve the problem before you ask for help? Because leaders love they don't like you to bring problems, they like you to bring solutions or ideas, right? And but then how much ~ do we do this on our own, become problem solvers before we pull people in? ~ What's that look like, do you think, as somebody who gets into some management roles and management positions? Where's the balance there in the knowing? Yeah, I I think similarly, there's an evolution.

7:41 At first in your role, you're gonna say, I have a problem here. And you might just raise, I have a problem. Next evolution is I have a problem. Here's a potential solution to it. Eventually you're gonna get to a place where I have a problem. I have three recommendations I looked at. Here's the one I recommended and why. And out of all those, I think the the best thing you could do is something we use here called an ugly straw dog. It's meant to just be give it to me rough. We have just a such an insane ~ bias towards speed and action that the rougher the better. Don't spend time chewing on a tough idea. Get it out, summarize it as quickly as you can.

8:24 One page, we say one page, size font to Homa size fourteen. Give it to me as briefly as you can and get the issue on the table. Ugly straw dog, don't make it perfect. We say clarity over perfection and brings people in. And the real power in doing that is I have found that if someone has a real hot issue and they struggle on it and they're working on it for months and months, they're tinkering in the lab, by the time they give me a recommendation, what they're telling me is, I have a problem, I've solved it, this solution is perfect, I don't need your help. And if I disagree with where they end up, They're gonna be really dug in and defensive of that position.

9:08 However, if they say, I have this hot issue, I have a thought, it's rough, let me put it on the table. And I say, that's an invitation for me to help. Not just me, but others to, okay, what about this? What if we did it this way? How do we build on that idea to get the best possible outcome? And so I think that's a really powerful way of don't be perfect, get help early. Be open to new ideas. If all if you're committed to the outcomes and the goals, how you get there doesn't matter. So you talked about failing fast, I think failing forward. I don't think I've asked this one before in the hundreds of conversations. Is there such thing as unacceptable failure?

9:53 I do think so. I I think that when you think of failure or mistakes, I tend to group them into two buckets. ~ one is a mistake when it's a sloppy one. When there is an established SOP and for whatever reason, ~ careless, just human nature, you made a mistake. Well that's not what we're talking about when we're saying fail faster. Those are avoidable mistakes. The great mistakes are you're innovating, you're trying something new. There is no playbook. Then make as many mistakes as you can make because each mistake is a way to do it better than next time. So I do differentiate between the mechanical established process, hey, we do this every day and we made a mistake.

10:36 It's gonna happen, but that's not what we mean when we say fail faster. It's when you're innovating, you're trying something new. There's no such thing as making too many mistakes. How many big decisions, and if you look back, we're now leading into the fourth quarter. I don't know how you guys look at your businesses, but in traditional sense, we're into the fourth quarter now. So if you look back on the previous nine months of 2026, how many decisions would you consider big company changing decisions did you have to make? Like the big ones? At least a dozen. And when I when I say big ones, these are multi year ~ changing the course of the company for the next five years materially. We're talking million plus dollar decisions.

11:22 ~ yeah, at least a dozen. Is that unique to have twelve in a nine month period? Or does that is that what the existence of your role looks like there? feel like that's been part for the course the last 15 years. ~ but I think that's just our mindset of ~ yeah, ~ Overseas Adventure Travel is coming up on 50 years in operations. Grand Circle's coming up on 70 years. But it still very much feels like a startup in the best sense of that, in that ~ we can change the course of this company tomorrow. And without changing the mission. Our mission's always going to be the same change people's lives. But how you get there, we're reading and reacting every day to what's the best way to serve our customers?

12:03 ~ and it's also this mindset that we don't want to rest on our Laurel's. You know, we have incredible customers and unmatched loyalty, but we're not gonna stop there. Every day I'm asking myself, how can we better serve our customers? How can we do it better ~ tomorrow, next week, next month? So ~ winger we're continuously raising the bar. You're gonna continue to make big decisions. I think somewhere I read that you guys believe, if not you, the company, and and correct paraphrasing, correct me if wrong, that you believe the most important part of this in this world of tech and evolution, you believe it's still about the experience. I believe.

12:45 So What do we do with that, with this evolution of tech? I'm not just saying AI, but this world is moving fast in databases and customer acquisition and everybody trying to and whether they're trying to grow organically or they're coming trying to take yours, what's that look like in this world in two thousand twenty six, going to twenty seven, with tech more relevant than ever, where the experience can still carry the day? Think speed is a weapon. And I see all these tools as how do we move faster at delivering value to our customers. And data, all these models, it's just a different way of saying we're listening to the customers. And so we never want to be at a place where we're we're churning out 200 pieces of ~ irrelevant content to our households.

13:33 What I want to do is have a conversation with them based off of their most recent behavior and say, they have told us this. How quickly can we follow up with you said this? we're engaging in a back and forth. And that's where AI and these data sets can help us really have personalized one-on-one conversations with our travelers in real time, giving them compelling, relevant content that shows we know a lot about them. You know, our travelers, we're in a loyalty mall. Every year, over seventy percent are repeat travelers with us. And we've had a multi year long relationship with them. They're trusting us to take them all around the world for 18 days at a time.

14:14 So when they are on our website and when they call in, we have to know who they are and recognize them for that loyalty and thank them. So the faster we can move there, I think it's just an exciting way to improve the way we engage with the traveler, improve the experiences on site based off of what they're telling us in real time. Is the number of customers you have every year, is that proprietary? We talked about it beforehand. Because if it's not it kind of is. Okay. All right. So let's do let's deal with the seventy percent you said that are repeat customers. I know what that number is in my brain, and you know I know what it is. Yes. That's a large number of people. Yeah. What do you do to make those folks want to keep coming back?

14:56 Because there's a bunch of industries That when someone sells or they help a consumer out, a client out with a service, there's surveys that are taken, and there's a high percentage. It's something like 70 or 80% say, I would utilize that service again. But then there's only 20 or 30% sometimes that they actually do. There's been a disconnection. So the experience was great. There's been a disconnection. So what do you guys do to maintain that relationship? And why do you think 70% of the people come back? Well, I'll even up the number a little bit because it's seventy percent or repeat. But when I factor in the word of mouth referrals we get from that, former travelers plus the referrals, over ninety percent of our travelers every year for the last fifty years.

15:43 So yeah, for me there's a couple things here. It starts with the value and the excellence. An excellence source is the on site product. ~ that's what What drives this whole company, as long as we continue to change people's lives on site, they're gonna keep coming back to us. It also helps that ~ travel is part of people's identity. If you're a travel bug, you're gonna travel year after year. It's part of your personal identity. It's not a I'd like to travel, it's I have to travel. So that's who we're we're serving as people who are passionate, curious, lifelong learners. And then we co parent the experience with them.

16:24 They tell us what they like, what they don't like on site, and we make changes based off of that feedback. So that's about the value and the experience. And value for us isn't just a low price. It's what you get for that price. ~ I would say number two is we focus heavily on making travel ex ~ accessible to solo travelers. It's been one of the fastest going segments in travel for at least a 10 years now. And we're at a point where almost half of our travelers are now solo travelers. And we don't charge a single supplement on any of our land tours because we want to make it accessible. We especially when you're serving a fifty plus demographic, we know that some of our travelers have lost partners.

17:07 And so they want to continue to travel and they don't want to feel penalized for it. Because travel for them is about community and sharing that experience not only with like minded travelers and other solo travelers, but how do they connect and continue to connect with local communities? And so we say we give our travelers the freedom to travel solo without traveling alone. We're your support system and your community there. ~ I think I had third one third one there, but I lost it. Yeah, don't don't s don't sweat it. It's just a great evolving conversation. When you go out, ~ how often do you travel? How often do you get out on one of these experiences?

17:47 I make it a a goal of mine to make sure that I'm touching a product with travelers at least twice a year. ~ and then I will hit the road more often than that with my family. And often when we do, we're bumping into our travelers and I can't help but stop and and solicit feedback. What can we do better? ~ so at least ~ two times with travelers and then, you know, another two or three more with the family. 'Cause I'm assuming that even when you travel as a part of your company, you're probably working as much then because you're looking at everything. You're always watching, you're seeing the fine details. So take us through the mind of a CEO when he's touching his own product.

18:29 It's all about ~ asking questions. ~ asking questions of our vendors, how are we showing up and and our travels will always tell us what we do great and why they love us and why they come back and thank you for that feedback. How do we do it better? That's all I want to hear is where did we let you down? Where did we not meet expectations? And so I'm asking our associates in the field, the the trip experience leaders, I'm asking the vendors we go to, the restaurants, the hotels, the coaches. What can we do better to serve you? And then I'm sitting down with the travelers and saying, okay, how do we compare? Like what tell us what are the top three things you would do differently? And so it's all about feedback.

19:09 It's less on the the hour by hour and how do I make tweaks there? That's not for me here in Boston to to dictate the hour by hour on a trip to Rome. One of the things we do great is ~ we have local offices in 35 offices and we hire local guides. to show off their communities. They're gonna know the products, the sites, the restaurants better than I'm gonna know here in Boston. So I'm more focused on that live feedback on how do we better serve our associates, our vendors, partners and our travelers. Hm. Would you give the same advice or different advice? I don't know if you run do you have any sort of a leadership development system inside your company?

19:53 Yeah, it's something that we've been committed to. In fact, the founder of this company, Alan Lewis Lewis, also founded a separate company, Pinnacle Leadership, focused on developing leaders. And there's a whole business model that's ~ we're committed to continuing to teach our leaders as well as ~ members of the community, a lot of nonprofit organizations we we hope support with that leadership training. When when you're in a role where you participate in that, I'm assuming you have whatever the coursework looks like, classes, do you teach from the things you've learned, how you your purview of a CEO now, what it takes to to be in these elite roles, do you teach from that purview?

20:34 Or do you teach from where people are at? And I don't think there's a right answer here. We're all looking to grow. We would all say different things. So what's your mindset? Because what you what I just asked you about, what are you looking at when you touch your product? Are you teaching that same type of thing for all leaders? I think it's a it's a mix, it's a hybrid. I think that a course or a specific day might be headlines. We're gonna focus on this and there's some key messages that might apply based on my experience or our leadership model. But I think any great leadership course or manager, take it back to being a manager. We've gotta meet people where they are in their leadership journey.

21:15 And my goal in those sessions is always learn you're at and how do I get you to take one more step than you thought you could? How do I get you Jeff, where's that comfort zone? And how do I get you one more step outside that comfort zone? Because that's anything worthwhile is just on the other side of that comfort zone. So that's my job is to push you there. ~ because I I think people are their own limiters in terms of their potential and and they need a little bit of a push there to see what's possible. What are you doing on a daily basis or weekly basis? How are you getting better? And maybe if if any of your employees hear this, if anybody inside the let's give them something new that the people who aren't in your inner, inner circle don't know about you.

21:56 ~ I have coaches, personal and professional. ~ and I'm maniacal about getting feedback. I ask at every one-on-one. What can I do ~ better to support you? What am I currently doing that I need to stop doing? ~ I'm looking for that 360 feedback constantly from peers, from direct reports, ~ internally and externally. I'm also a member of the YPO organization and I I belong to a a forum there of six other ~ non industry leaders. and we are very direct on feedback and growth and how do we support one another. So I'm looking for help any which way I can get it.

22:37 ~ I love listening to leadership podcasts. I'm a big fan of the Founders podcast and and leadership books. I'm just trying to be as open to new ideas. I mean you have to put through your own filter. What sticks? What what are you letting go of? Yeah, when we hear feedback, how do we know it's constructive? It's empowering, it's not just judgment. Is it making and so if 'cause if we're gonna listen to mentors and coaches, do we have to evaluate them? The person giving. Absolutely. Any anytime ~ you get feedback or someone's giving you ~ their perspective, you have to realize that's just their perspective. Nobody has 360 degrees. That's why when I'm doing an interview or doing meetings, ~ I'm always in there asking other people, what did you see? I might have missed something.

23:26 We were in the same meeting, but you saw something I didn't see, or I was so busy taking notes or or directing a conversation, you're picking up on body language I didn't see. So I always believe in having a partner and getting different perspectives. But then you have to realize their perspective is just theirs. And you have to realize, ~ put it through your own filter of what sticks. I have found in my experience that the feedback that you bump up against the most is honestly ~ tends to be the feedback you need to hear that you're just not ready to hear. And that's where you have to continue to reflect on that and say, why am I so defensive about that? What is it about me not wanting to hear that that's setting me off?

24:07 More often than not, that's that's the message you need to really ~ reflect on and focus on. Do you find the last three to four minutes of our conversation about growth, about open mindedness, about feedback? Is that is that the thing missing for people who want to become leaders and operate at the top, top level? I don't know if it's what's missing. ~ I think that all the best leaders have it. ~ I think you have to be open. You have to be ~ constantly looking to grow. I mean, what is this whole human experience if you want to stay the same next year as you are today? ~ if you're not looking to grow at at all moments, ~ you're done trying to to live in my in my opinion.

24:51 So Where where'd that knowledge come from? So at what point, at what age in your life do you remember having comprehension that you were inviting that? I would say it was ~ the founder here and and and one of my my biggest mentors, Alan Lewis. As I was really stepping into a C level job, he would say to me in every meeting, You're not gonna become who you need to become being who you are today. And that was constantly challenging me to say, Change is about letting go of who you are. And that could be scary, but you need to be open because you're gonna limit your own potential. And so I got that every week for a a couple of years there and I'm I'm incredibly grateful for it because I didn't realise how much my lack of being open and my my lack of that growth mindset was limiting my my potential.

25:43 So it's something that I'm passionate about passing on. Be open. Continue to grow. So is that do you have to find an individual as capable as the founder, Alan Lewis? Do you have to find someone that capable that can impact us like that? Does it take a Nick Saban type of coach to move the needle for somebody? Because the question I'm going to is folks that maybe haven't achieved this level yet and they're looking to really grow and lean in. If the if there aren't as many as those folks, you can't just open your door. And walk out in any office and find people as impactful like you were talking about the founder. They're n they're not everywhere.

26:23 So do you have to be around one of those individuals, find yourself there, intentionally seek that out? Or is there some other way? I would say if I can always speak to my own experience. And I was fortunate to ~ connect with Alan and for him to be that person in my life. And I would say if you don't have someone organically like that in your life, find it. Go find a coach. Go find the circles of people who are gonna push you to be more than you are today. If you're in a circle of peers, of friends who just want you to stay the same and you're ambitious and you want to grow and have an outsized impact and and more in control of your life, you need to find community who's gonna do that for you, who's gonna play that role. So I I would challenge if you don't have it, find it.

27:11 If we'd walk into your office, what would we find? What would be the thing that stands out the most? Anything? ~ we have a strong culture and that shows up in the way we design the building. ~ right away when you walk ~ off the street, walking up the stairs, not even in the lobby yet, there's a collage of pictures of associates at something we call business works. And that's a week long investment that we do every year, getting our associates up in the woods in New Hampshire, climbing trees, getting outside of their comfort zones. And right away we're just trying to set that Expectation that this is different. What is going on here? And then the sign above our our front desk in the lobby says we help change people's lives.

27:57 And so it's just a reminder of yes, we're a travel company, but the mission of this company is to change people's lives. We do that through the travel, through the foundation, through through leadership. And that that carries through on every floor. So we're on the sixth floor here in Boston, the executive pod over here at the the C suite. the floor is papered with org memos. And so that's what happens here. A floor down is accounting. You're gonna see currencies. And so it's a a fun way to just play with what are we here to do? this is the money. This is the organizational floor. ~ but it all starts and ends with every day walking in, walking out, we're here to change people's lives. Hm. So then one step further we walk into your office.

28:40 Is there a sign? Is there a statue? Is there is there one thing that if I walked in there, I'd say, That's different. I don't know if it's different, but I'll just tell you anywhere I go, I make sure I have a giant whiteboard. ~ I feel like if I wasn't CEO, I was destined to be a teacher. ~ I don't like to sit still at the table here and just have a conversation. It's let's get up to the board, let's collaborate, let's what does this look like? Let's sketch it out. And so ~ it's not different, but I think having a whiteboard is an invitation to collaboration and just brainstorming. ~ and so that's where you'll see me ninety percent of the time is in front of that whiteboard with a group of people.

29:23 Dude when you p go to pick up the dry erase marker, are they like Th there's a ongoing joke. How long is it gonna take me to get out of my seat into the board? And ~ every time it happens they laugh and th there's a little tally there. ~ it's generally thirty seconds into a meeting. ~ so you love living in Boston. We talked about that before the podcast started. Have you lived there your whole life, went to school there, the whole nine yards? Born and raised. I think it's one of the funniest things about being ~ the CEO of an international travel company is I was born just outside of ~ the city in the suburbs. I went to college just outside the city. I still live outside, I come here every day.

30:05 My whole life is in about 30 square miles, and then I get to do this for a living. The ~ what's great about Boston, I'm assuming that a small percentage of your travels in the US, I'm assuming there's some of it for Boston. No, no, it's national parks. ~ we focus on the national park. Most our travel is about taking Americans off the beaten path where they're not gonna go ~ themselves. And so it really is, you know, top destinations for us. Think Egypt, Japan, African safari, Sicily, ~ South America Antarctica. it's really let's change people's lives by getting them outside their comfort zones.

30:49 But what I love about Boston, besides our ~ all of our championships on the sports teams, it's the people. I I love the the kind of hardworking, blue collar nature o of Boston. There's some great colleges here, great hospitals, the investment in the community. It's a strong sense of community and ~ and even though we might be known for our tough, rough exterior, ~ we might, you know, curse you out, but we will bend over backwards to help you if you need it. So it's like a best friend. Yeah. It really is. So it's weird that we are six years going on seven years post COVID pandemic when it started.

31:32 We're we're probably truly three years clear of it, three to four. ~ we could talk about for a travel company just how diabolical that moment was for you. I I think we might need another hour just on this topic alone. But just to paint the picture, we as I said, we operate in a hundred plus countries and one of our country managers lives in Wuhan. And so we were getting updates live from Wuhan, January, February. Hey, something's happening over here. At that time we thought it was gonna be okay, maybe similar to the SARS outbreak. And we're like, all right, let's watch this.

32:12 a couple months later, March, the world shut down. And ~ we stopped operating and we weren't fully operational until ~ Q four twenty twenty two. I think it was South Pack, New Zealand was the last country to to officially open up to tourism again. So for that two years, we're sitting here we had the unfortunately furlough of seventy percent of our our organization as we are waiting ~ to restart. But what is it gonna look like when it restarts? And how we how can we be prepared? I would say was some of the most challenging but worthwhile time spent with a small team taking the crisis for what it was, but looking for the opportunity in crisis.

32:58 How do we come out of this stronger? Who do we want to be when we when we resume? What's it gonna look like? How do we better serve our travelers? We have all this time in the world now. Let's use it to innovate and fix the stuff that we weren't getting to. ~ and so from that ~ point of view, I'll forever be grateful to the band banner. ~ one of my favorite stats as a company though, we talked about that loyalty model, ~ and 70% of our travels are repeat. When we stopped operating, 85% of our travelers kept their money with us and their deposits with us. They did not ask for a refund. And they said, we want to travel with you as soon as we can.

33:40 And that loyalty kept us in business. Without that deep of a connection to our travelers, I don't know that we would be here today. And so I take that very seriously in my role in honoring that commitment, ~ and that level of trust that they put in us. So it was an incredible time, I think, personally, professionally, challenging. I can't wait to finally put it fully in the rearview and and stop talking about pre pandemic, pandemic, post pandemic, and just say, Hey, the last three years. credible growth and not comparing to ~ those different periods. ~ but I think crisis can be a gift if you look for the opportunities in crisis because they are there.

34:23 How do you use that time to innovate and challenge the status quo? How do you prepare for a crisis that you don't even know what it will be? It's all about your values as a company. And for us, it's you gotta get information. You gotta be wide open and collect information. And then the next thing you do is put together a plan. Go to action. Because during crisis, you'll see some people who are ready to go to action and some people get stuck. it's personally ~ can be a challenging time for them. And when you put together a plan, say, I need you to do this, they wake up and they'll snap and they'll go to action. So I think the first thing is get facts, put together a plan, but then be open to pivoting.

35:08 You gotta read and react. It's that quote, you know, the best thing to do is the right thing, the next best thing to do is the wrong thing, the worst thing you could do is nothing. And so you hope you get it right, but if if you have the right values and the open, say, hey, we tried this, it was wrong, okay, pivot to the other way. And I I think just a bias for action, getting facts and being open. it's it's the only way through. If you were teaching, which I don't know, maybe you do. Maybe you teach an adjunct class or something in Boston, but if if you were teaching a course on entrepreneurship was such a hot topic for the past decade, I think what's happening now is people are finally understanding, hey, it's not as sexy and as beautiful as everyone makes it out to be.

35:52 It's really hard. And this the seat that you're in now, when you get to a C suite, regardless if you were the founder or came up through finance you like you did, you're now in the seat. And it is an entrepreneurial seat. ~ what would you teach about a path? A traditional path to gain experience through a company the way that you did, or the path that somebody that starts a company and founds it and grows it for 50 years and is able to hand it off to other people. I'm not saying it's not that we don't need both. There aren't these paths, but what has your brain taught you about the benefits of each one or also the downsides of each one?

36:32 Yeah, I I don't know about there's one path or one's better than the other. I will say if you want this role or you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to love it. You have to love it so much that you're gonna commit everything to it. Because it's easy to look out and see the people who might be in my seat or at entrepreneurs and see the success. They are an iceberg. You see the tip of the success, you don't see what it took to get there and all the failures and all the hard work. And the hours. And so to get through that, to finally poke up and have that piece of the iceberg be above water finally, you have to love it. And so finding something where your values are so aligned, it's part of your identity. I don't see this as a job.

37:19 This is, I found a role where my personal passions and values aligned with a role and with a company so much that. There's no hours. I'm constantly thinking about this business and and how do I do it better? I'm still very much a present husband and dad at every moment. It's just part of who I am. There's no work-life balance for me. ~ it's just who I am. It's how I show up. I love it. And so that's what I would really tell people. There's certainly different paths and getting mentors. And if you really wanna ~ there's no time like today. If you're thinking about it, do it. Who cares if you fail? You'll learn something. And then if you're committed to it, you'll do it again better. So I would push people to take risks, but you have to be values aligned.

38:05 You have to really be committed to it because you're gonna fail a lot before you're successful. So people that are out here talking about this word of balance, and and let me try to let me try to distill it down to people want something to stop at a certain point in their day and another part of their responsibilities in life to start. It's almost like there's somewhere in the world where there's a river that connects with the ocean and the two waters stay comp. Have you seen that one? Where is that? Do you know where it is? No hope. Where one's muddy and the other one's blue, and you see it's like Africa. It's somewhere. And I think when people say they want balance, that's what they're talking about. I've not seen balance in leadership ever in my life when the moments when I was all in. And you talked about that.

38:50 You say, hey, I'm still a husband and I'm a dad. And how I try to explain it to people is like you all, this work might look maniacal. It might look that way, but I do everything this way. Yeah. Right? So, so take Brian's version of balance and what people are trying to achieve. And maybe put that into the way of having success at the same time. Because what I tell folks, I'm like, guys, if I do put in a ninety hour work week, yeah, I did show up a little bit less in person the other time, but I didn't, I wasn't devoid of the relationship. Right. I think there's a couple things here. I think when I think about ~ balance, to me, my definition of balance is priorities.

39:36 As and as long as I am focused on the top three things and giving them the right amount of focus, I'm not gonna get to item number twenty and I gotta be okay with that. But if I'm family first, my as a husband and a father, that's my North Star. As long as that's good. And then job is second in my mission. I was like, that's my priorities. And I'm only out of balance if I'm on priority number 20 and number one, two, and three are suffering. Okay. So that's first and foremost. So I I always think about it is priorities and making sure that I'm aligned on the right things. ~ the other thing it it's quality versus quantity. It's not just an hour scheme. What I'm with my children, I'm fully present. I'm down on the floor, I'm playing cashier with them.

40:23 I'm playing dolls with my my girls. I'm coaching my daughter's flag football team. I'm all in. You have my attention because you are a priority. I'm not clocking the hours. I'm looking at impacts. So they know they have a hard working, committed father who puts them first. Absolutely. I'm good. So that's how I think about it. Yeah. I think what most people, and I'm honing more all the time and trying to help folks, what I've seen that if people wanted to say, What have you given up to achieve the these roles and this level of success? Well, I've given up a lot of the personal stuff. I've given up if I wanted to play rounds of golf, if you want to go out and play fantasy footballs, if you want to go to all the sporting events and stuff, that's the stuff you are sacrificing giving up.

41:07 Yeah. And right, and if you find something that you're truly passionate about, I don't think you have to wait, you can find anything and become passionate. But if you make the choice to go all in, make a difference, make an impact, lead people, impact your consumers, clients, and customers, if you choose to do that and you want to do it better than anybody else in your space or the best you can, you're gonna have to give up some of that personal stuff. One hundred percent. I think it's the it's the it's the hard thing about focus. Everyone's heard that word focus. And it's easy to focus when it's good things against bad things. The reality and the truth about focus is you have to say no to a lot of great ideas. Whether that's personal commitments, business commitments, when you're focused, you say no a lot. And it's not always to bad ideas.

41:53 That's a great idea, but no. I would love to go to that Halloween party, but no. 'Cause I'm focused on this and that's my priority. You have to get comfortable saying no and and s and making sure you're around. Right on. Hey, ~ thanks for giving us the time today. Great conversation. Give us ~ give us a couple plugs. Where we should find you if it's on LinkedIn or the website for ~ for the travel company, whatever you think the best place for us to go. And if we're inspired and we we're like Brian's a great guy, this company sounds awesome. ~ what's the best place? Would go to OATTravel.com. You know, that's small group, culturally immersive travel for curious travelers.

42:33 We're a travel company made for travelers, not for tourists. We don't want to just show people the world. We want to help you get to know the people who live in it. So OATTravel.com. And if you want to learn more about our Michigan, giving back to the communities that we travel to and the work that we're doing through the Grand Circle Foundation, that's GrandCircleFoundation.org. Hm. And I'm sure we can find you all over the world in LinkedIn. And he might guys send him nice messages. Tell how much you want to travel with him. Tell him how you're going to impact the world. Maybe he'll accept the invite. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Mars. Hey, thank you.