#226 - Opening Up the $26 Billion Tax Lien Market | Stephen Morel, JurisDeed

0:00 It's a twenty six billion dollar industry that's been gated behind comp complexity by the wealthiest in the country. And we're gonna knock those gates down and let everybody play. I just shared with the guest today with Stephen that I'm going on 30 hours of no sleep because red eye flights. But it's been a great day of podcasting and this one's gonna finish this. We're gonna find out if today's guest, Stephen Morrell, the founder and CEO of JurisDeed, guys. I know. Why do I have to bring on legal people and attorneys?

0:46 I'm sorry. I apologize. We're not trying to be boring. He's actually gonna be great to talk to, but he's a prop tech platform using AI to open up tax lien investing. One of the oldest and least understood corners of American real estate to everyday investors. And y'all that know me know I'm all in for some real estate. So Ste Stephen's spent more than 20 years as a Louisiana real estate attorney, including helping rewrite the state tax laws and served as chief woo chief legal officer at Civic Source before founding Juris Deed in 2020. His path into this world started with Hurricane Katrina, which destroyed his home in 2005. He rebuilt it himself, which I'm sure we're going to hear the story, and the experience reshaped how he saw distressed property.

1:29 Today he's building the infrastructure for a market that still runs on courthouse visits and scanned PDFs. Stephen Morrell, welcome to the Entrepreneur Party. I am excited to be here. That's a great intro. Thank you for making me sound so uh impressive. You rebuilt your house after Katrina. So I know we're gonna talk about, you know, what you're building with Juris Deed, but for those of us that didn't go through that and we didn't feel the personal effects of it, um, tell us about two thousand and five and Katrina and and just what you went through in life and business and everything. Yeah, at the time, um, just to give you a little personal context, um I just a couple of years out of law school and uh I this went to law school because it was one of those things where I I don't know what else am I gonna do.

2:17 So let me just go to law school. That's I was a good test taker uh and got in and um and you know, so I'm I'm not passionate about the practice of law or making that my career, but that's what I was doing. So Um, I I was really disillusioned with it a couple of years in, just billing hours mindlessly doing other people's work and just like, is this my life? Like I I just that and I've been my entire life, if I was telling you before we s we started to hit the record button, I as a little kid. I'm like, I'm selling stuff on the street. I'm building little, you know, little businesses and I'm I'm little mini entrepreneur, you know. And it's it's that's who I am. And I'm sitting here like just clicking buttons for somebody else and I want to jump out the window. So That's kind of what where I was at in my career when the storm hit.

3:01 Um then uh just to give you a little bit of the magnitude, I know everybody knows it was really bad, but um eighty percent of the of the city was underwater. Uh for not for a day, not for a week, for weeks, plural. Uh I first got back to my house, it was two weeks later, and I had to pull up to it in a in a flat bottom boat, went about five feet of water. So this is late August, early September in New Orleans with no power. And you can imagine what that kind of smells and feels like. It is not pleasant. Um and so I I I'm I I'm all I can think of is just I just gotta fix this. I'm in good repair mode, right? I gotta fix this. I mean I I love the city.

3:42 I so I'm born and raised there. My parents are from there. Uh my grandparents were still around at the at the time. It it's just my home. So I'm not going anywhere. So I I'm I get out the boat. I'm waist tie waders on. If you're if you're a hunter, you know I'm talking about like you just ready to go into the swamp and just start shooting stuff. And I got the gas mask on. I'm I'm also a military vet. So like I had some of this old equipment. You know, I had like the gas mask and I had the the hazmat suit and and I look like something out of the scene like the final scene of E.T. You they're walking through the tunnel. Like, you know, going to my house and wading through this this terrible sewage water. It looks like a scene out of Jurassic Park. There's stuff growing on the walls that I don't even know. i they've really i investigated what this stuff is.

4:25 And I I've had like a little downstairs office and there was a uh like a bookshelf that had now just fallen into the water because it just warped. Um and there was this Black's Law Dictionary. It's the kind of the rite of passage. If you go to law school, somebody gives you Black's Law Dictionary. It's just like what she had. Like you like grandpa gives it to you, right? You go, congratulations. You're a lawyer now. And I see this thing spine up floating in the water. uh dimly lit, you know, and kind of musty. I'm like and it just stared at me and I'm like, I'm out. I'm done. It was just one of these weird moments. It was like it was kinda you it was things leading up to that, but I was like, I'm done. And and all I could do after that was was the water receded, uh, and was just rebuild my house.

5:09 Now I knew nothing about real estate at the time. Um I literally did not know what a caulk gun was. I I thought that sounded something that, you know, like I don't know what that sounded like. But it it was just I didn't I knew nothing. So I'm like I like I I had I had great coverage. I had USAA, which was for the you know, for military vets, and and they were on the ground with checks in hand, like full pal policy, no no arguments here, just here, here, here, sir, here's the money. Um, I was back in my house by the end by December. Now this is so September, October, November. This is like four months, less than four months. And I remember driving out of my h out of my driveway as in the evening time in December. And I'm on my electricity on, I'm uh my groceries are in the gro in the refrigerator again and I I just drive around the city and just hits me that I'm one of the only ones back. Uh and I mean like it I'm almost getting like choked up right now because it was like this is my home and I made it, but nobody else is here. And I'm s it was like, and I'm be I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it was just it was eerie. And I felt alone.

6:10 I felt like I've got to do something to help here. And I and it it just it I like it the whole time I still didn't know what I was gonna do with my career. I do, I was just in repair mode and It occur it I I finally figured out that people weren't even back yet because not everyone n everyone hadn't didn't we know everyone was. Like people were scattered. You understand, like this the storm came in, it cr it it it took a weird curve in the last second, it was like the the the the worst possible route, you know, like up the river. And we I remember myself, it was like Saturday morning, we woke up and saw the weather channel, we're like, you know what? We're out. Like w and so nobody left a A card of, hey, this is where I'm evacuating to for whoever's left at the city when when this thing is over with, like, please call me and let me know if my house is okay.

6:56 Like it was just scatter and run, you know? And so you're talking about, you know, over a million people in a major area metropolitan area just like went everywhere. And most of them didn't come back. And here's what I realized about real estate. You can't just like if you just walk away from your home and it and you stop paying the taxes, and you stop paying the mortgage, and you stop doing and And nobody can find you, the owner, that property's gonna just sit there. Because we have something called the constitution and the bill of rights and everything. I mean, you can't just go take property because you didn't do your part. Like there there are rules and laws and everything. And what happens when property just sits? It makes the city it just persists, right? The city the the problems just perpetuate.

7:38 And so years go by and you have just thousands and thousands of properties still with the spray paint on there from when they were triaging, you know, like uh the the looking for for deceased people and pets and um it was just a like a ghost town. So I'm like, what can we do about this? And I figured out that if we could track people down, we could actually help them and help the city at the same time. And that takes legal processes to do that. Did the house need to change hands and get someone else to come back and reinvest to live and do it? That's what you're talking about. Yeah, because here's the thing. Yeah, like you pe some people might be listening to this be well there's government processes or there's banks who will take that.

8:23 Yeah, they're not moving in. They're not gonna start paying. That means like if the government, if the city government takes it, that just means that's the default. That's like the the backstop, right? Like that's nowhere else for it to go. The city is the one who's owed the taxes. Yeah. So we we need people paying in we need them paying into the utility infrastructure. We need the tax money coming in to maintain roads. We have to pay for the government organizations. Absolutely. You absolutely need someone living there. And then when people live there, they work in the community. They're spending money at grocery stores. So all the stuff. Well, it's a ripple effect too. So if you you get the uh you know, the the broken win the broken window theory, right, in in in the neighborhood, right? One broken window and then people start throwing the trash on the ground, right? 'Cause it's like, wow, that's just the way it is around here, right? It happens. It's can it absolutely, it's a real thing. So it's contagious.

9:08 And so it also r like slows down rehabilitation and growth too. Like if there's a whole area and and it's just not getting done. You know, it takes one pioneer to start like rebuilding a house and then it's like, okay, well, I'll move down that block too. But you gotta have warm bodies in the house though. And that was the hardest part. And so then this this over this time, like the city had been taking back these properties because of tax foreclosure. Now I didn't know what a tax foreclosure was. I like, wait a minute, I thought the foreclosure meant you didn't pay your mortgage. And like, well, actually it's almost the same exact thing because you have a debt you owe on property and tax liens are basically the mortgage that you owe your taxes on.

9:50 And it's owed to the city that you owe pay the taxes to. If you don't pay the city, then they can take it back or they can sell it to a private investor. Because why? Well, the city needs the cash that year, right? Every year's a new tax bill. And so most people don't even know what a heck a tax line is. And in frank, be frank with you, neither did I when I first started this journey and and now like I know teach classes on it. And it's it's it's that simple. You everybody pays into the system and it's the number one source of revenue across all of America. And if about Every year about uh about twenty, twenty five percent of people don't pay their real estate tax on time for whatever reason. Um, now most of them pay eventually before any kind of anything really bad happens, right? But about twenty, twenty five percent. If and any across America, any county or city, whoever the tax collector is in your in your area, didn't collect twenty percent of their taxes in any one year, they'd go bankrupt in one year.

10:46 And the other op the other options with that with a lack of re tax revenue is you can raise everyone else's taxes who are paying on time. That's not a good result, or you can just stop spending. And then you then you can lay off half of your police force, your firemen, your teachers, your public roads, your playgrounds, and you name it, right? And so this is so vital to just like the quality of life in your community. I mean, that's how important this is. And the tax that it's so misunderstood. Tax lien investors Have been playing a vital role in the stability of communities for a hundred years. And it's it's an amazing investment because it is a is something that the government's already started the process, right? Now they're gonna hand the lien off to you because you're paying the debt for somebody else temporarily.

11:32 And 98, 99% of those that get sold at a taxing sale will never go through, like finish a foreclosure. It'll resolve before it gets that far. Like about 1% ever foreclose. And it's designed that way because it's a tax collection method. It's not a foreclosure method. That's why when investors hear like horse on this thing and they they like think, it's a get rich quick scheme, right? I can pay pennies on a house and get the whole house eventually. I can, you know, it's it's like, hey, um, no, that's not exactly what it's for. It's one of the worst ways if you want to own property, is is or tax liens. You might end up one day possibly with a home run, but it's not why you do it. And the ones who are most successful in it, It's a it's a yield play. It's margins.

12:13 It's your you're getting that interest retail. So it gets a bad rap because you're talking about it being when these tax bill a couple areas. So for somebody that's not in the business, but in real estate, I'm close enough to it, right? And have relationships with real estate attorneys in our marketplaces. And the reason why it gets a bad rap is because when you don't pay your tax bill and the cities and the local governments, whoever it is, decides to sell it, it's gonna cost you more money. There's gonna be interest on it. It's gonna cost the longer it goes, but that's anything. There's late penalties on everything. But then if it goes far enough and eventually you don't pay it, it will be foreclosed and you'll lose the property, right? But it's no different. Property taxes are no different than a mortgage.

12:55 They're no different than a car on a car payment. If we don't pay, and this listen, people go through bad moments in their life. There's moments I've been right next to dang broke, right? There are repercussions for not being able to pay our bills. And our system has to work. If you have too many people, to your point, too many people not paying the bills. Government's gonna be out of business. Same thing for me running my business. If an We're not Yeah. gonna have a business. If if I can't collect five, ten, fifteen percent of the commissions we're owed when we sell property, I won't have a business. The margins aren't that good. Right. And so if we want these functioning systems in society, it's a necessary evil. So it gets the bag stip bad stigma from the consumer po consumer standpoint. And then it has this feel.

13:39 I'm just gonna throw it out here. It's the elephant in the room. It has this feel. on profiting off of people's Yes off of the unfortunate situations, right? And so here's the thing. It it's a reality. They're profiting off of it, but this system needs to happen and take place because the government is inefficient in collecting the tax and it has to be paid. Here's the thing. Yeah, the the thing is if they uh take out the take away the um the potential for you know county or municipal bankruptcy, like I like I mentioned before, if the investors didn't show up. The interest is accruing whether they show up or not. But it the government's is accru it's accruing in favor of the government, right? So like that's that nobody the investors don't s don't change that.

14:22 It just changes hands who collects that interest, not that you have to pay it. Yeah. The government's giving up some of their VIG. They're giving up some of their VIG to the person that's gonna take the risk that has to collect the taxes then. Be correct, because they need that cash to operate the county for everyone else's benefit that year. percent. Yep. So we're not I'm not trying to put a positive spin on, but that is the reality of what the system is, why it works the way it works. And thankfully there's investors to do it so they can go ahead and get the county and the local government their money and they just give up a small percentage for the investor investors taking the risk. It's just what it is. Yeah, the last thing I'll say about that, about in week uh you know, about as far as the investment is as a whole and and you know, w the misconception and everything, is there are a thousand reasons why s someone's taxes may, you know, someone may fall behind, someone might have died, someone might have fallen on hard times, they lost their job, they they you know, whatever. Um, and that's that's life.

15:14 That it's understandable. Well, guess what? A tax lien is a a loan, a low interest loan. Most places it's about between one percent or less a month. So you're talking about, you know, if you're if you were in hard times and trying to go get a hard money loan, how much interest are you paying today? Twelve Twelve percent. Rocky. Yeah, invest hold on if if you can put a wean on real estate, I got guys who do it twelve percent right now. There you go. Well that's that's just that's a better deal. But but it yeah, so anyway, it's a great deal. One percent a month, you're not gonna get better than that. You never had to apply for it either, by the way. You just you were you were automatically granted it by being a homeowner, you're entitled to it. Yeah. and and it gives you time to get you back on your feet.

15:57 In most places it's years. Like in Louisiana it's a three three year period. And just so we know, here's what I'm gonna do, just to make sure I save Grace and all the people that are on all sides this. Here's what I'm gonna tell them. I get pissed, y'all, when I'm paying my property taxes as well. I do shit's too much. They're trying to overvalue my properties, especially with how property values. So just so everybody knows, I got paid, but I'm pissed off just like you when I got paid. So let's throw it out there. It's essential. We need it, but I get mad as hell too. I'm with because I have commercial property, man. There are huge tax bills, but here's how I look at it. I'm paying the tax bill because I have an opportunity to own that property and earn revenue, build wealth and all that. So once I can get over to being pissed off about handing money for something I don't get good in return, the reality is it's a part of developing a great system that we get to be a part of this country.

16:42 So okay. Now back to you. Yeah, listen, it it's it there's a lot of sides to this story. And and one one thing that's uh that I I wanted to to we can get into this more uh in this conversation, but i if you start to see there's a lot of different angles to this story, right? This the story of like of delinquent taxes or tax or real estate tax in general, this this this community, right? It and it and it's a cyclical thing. And when I started developing this this business that that I'm in today, Which I know we haven't really gotten that much into into the details of that yet, but um it it it it you know it's it's a it's a revolution, right? Cycles through every single year, and then there's different segments of the industry that play a very distinct role in it. And it really they rev they they're it's a symbiotic relationship.

17:29 So you have the you have the government tax collectors, you have you have the government, right, the local government, then you have the the investors and you have the taxpayers, and then you have everybody else who is affected by whether or not that tax gets paid. which is the rest of the community. And they all revolve around this this wheel. And when I first started this business, I was coming out with my lawyer hat on. Like I I'd run a title company for a while. I I you know the t which was the way that I got into helping investors in tax liens, was I was able to do closings to pay the bills. And then I was able to on the side kind of build this this system of helping, you know, to to get to the bottom of why these tax lien properties were getting stuck And they couldn't sell them, they couldn't get title insurance on them and all that stuff I'll tell you about later.

18:16 But the point is is that I was taking a one little sliver of that flywheel. And I was like, well, this is what I know how to do. This is what I can get paid for. This is what I'm gonna do. Right. And I never saw the big picture until I started to until I went down this whole tech startup route. And I had to stop and and you know, take my I know I know anything hat off and then and humbly say I know nothing. And then start learning all over again and say, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. If I do this, then this becomes better. And if that happens, then these people come in here. And then if that and all of a sudden you have the whole wheel. And I'm like, my God. Like I'm I'm creating I'm I'm essentially creating myself into the center of this flywheel.

18:59 And it helps everybody. And that that that has really changed the dynamics of how I approach problem solving, how I've appro have a I've changed how I look at this opportunity. it's it's it's much, much more macro when you're looking at what the why and the what. And then of course when you get into the execution part, it gets way more micro, but but it but i if you stop and think about what you're doing here, you're a part of a system and you're helping it revolve. It and and if it stops revolving, everybody loses. So what's the business part of this look like? So we can step from when I had no money and couldn't pay property taxes. I bet and even on some of my we we still, even though we have great revenue on our business, sometimes we miss the damn dates and we have to pay a little fee.

19:44 Like because you can pay it early. That early shit drives me crazy and then we'll be on. It's like, when's it owed? Damn it. Right? If you're gonna give me a free I don't owe that shit in September, I owe that January first. Get off my ass, right? That's I'm I'm I'm crazy. But And then there's a December 31st time. And if you go past January 1st, there's going to be an extra little fee. And we always pay them by like March 31st, always, right? Because I look at it that way. I'm like, what else could I do with this money right now? I do. Yeah. My business brain thinks of it that way. However, um, the reality of the business part, we can get beyond that because I'm as tied in with property owners as it is. And if we could reduce them and still operate the communities, I'm all on board for it. However, Let's talk about the business side of this, you coming from because one of my best friends is a title attorney.

20:34 He's a foreclosure attorney. He's in the whole space, man. Like he understands. He's done this tax billing stuff for people, but he hasn't gone as deep as you have and built the business. He just helps all his local folks do it. So your 20 years as a real estate attorney rewriting Louisiana State tax law. You see the opportunity, what's doing for communities, but then your entrepreneur brain's kicking off. And the reason why I know your entrepreneur brain, what you didn't tell the guest was. That You were looking at profit margin when you were a kid, when you'd go to the ocean and get some sour bubble gum that they didn't have in your neighborhood, and you'd bring it back and sell it for profit. So I know that that Stephen is applying that same business entrepreneurial brain to building your company now. So let's talk about the business side of this.

21:25 Yeah, the the business side of it is that people make a lot of money um investing in tax liens, um and but it's really hard work. Uh and it's cumbersome and it's complicated and involves mostly a lot of legal compliance. You buy a tax lien, you're buying into a delinquent state of being, right? You have this this legal mechanism that's in a delinquent state and you have to play by the rules if you're gonna if you're gonna profit from it. You can't just it's not just a private thing. So you're either this is an interaction with government and state laws, and then you have federal due process laws, and you got all this stuff you got to worry about for it to be successful. And then you look at it, you know, investors who are are really trying to grow a portfolio, you have to economies of scale tick date, you dictate you have to move beyond just like one county in one state, and you gotta go into different states.

22:13 Well, guess what? Every county has their own set of rules, every state has their own set of rules, and they're changing all the time, and so you gotta keep up with all those changes. And so what happens is it's a really profitable business because it's just it has to be to attract investors to make sure that that that money comes in. But it's really, really difficult. And over the years, the big institutional financial hedge funds and and and even banks, a lot of banks will invest a port a portion of their of their their money in tax liens because it's so safe and then they have the resources to overcome those those complications and and they they'll hire a whole law firm. to go do this stuff. Over over the years, the biggest most successful uh investors have just built their own infrastructure.

22:57 They've built their own teams. They've built a network of vendors across different states and they just r recycle it every year. They they get the redemption money in and they put it back in the next auction and then they use their network. And and so what occurred what happened was there were was there was a company that was doing this and that's when I first fell on the tax liens and they were they had assets in Louisiana. And this is when I just started my title company. This is after I was back on my feet, post Katrina, all stuff. And uh and I was like still kind of pretty hungry for business. You know, I put a hang on hung my shingle, but I was, you know, I I I didn't have a whole lot of business going on at the time and someone walked in and said, Hey man, look, I don't know if you can help with this, but I heard you were you were, you know, young guy at the at the time I was younger then.

23:42 And he said, um, I I can't no one wants to buy these things and and I I my only job for this big company out of out of state somewhere is to get them sold. He was I think it was a realtor, you know, he just a just a hustler. And I can't get title insurance on they get they can the deals keep falling through at the closing table and nobody wants them. The um and he's like what can you do anything to help? And I'm like, I had no idea what a tax sale was at the time. I'm like, Yeah of course I can. Yeah. I can't let me go look at what a tax sale is real quick. like, okay, I'm back. yes, I can help you. And this is what we're gonna do. Um, I'm gonna have to go create a I'm gonna have to go get a title insurance underwriter to come and bac come in and back this up because the it the buck stops with that. I'm not a big title insurance fan.

24:24 If you've ever heard if you've listened to any of my podcasts before, you're like I used to be a title insurance agent and it's the biggest racket. They're insuring for for a risk that already happened and they're paying somebody to go look and see if it happened, and you're still gonna sell you insurance after they looked and told you it didn't happen. It's it's it's pretty nuts. But be that as it may, the banks won't give you a loan unless you get the title insurance, right? So the banking industry keeps the title insurance industry alive. And but there it is. If you can't get a loan, how how interested it are you in putting your own money, right? Use OPM, right? How often how excited are you putting your own money into something that the the title lawyer is saying, I can't do? You're like, yeah, no. Uh and so what happens? Post Katrina, the property sits.

25:09 Right. And then the it profit persists. But I said, Well what if I get an underwriter to come in and say yes? They're like, Well, yeah, of course. That would work. Well, who how are you gonna do that? Like, I don't know. Let me figure that out. So I figured out a a system that made one underwriter after five others said no, you're crazy, to spend said yes, 'cause I said, Look, this is this is I'm gonna it's all about risk, right? Insurance companies wanna take your premiums and never pay claims. It's You're like, let me alleviate the risk. I have a system to alleviate your risk. Yeah. So so let me let me convince you that there is a systematic process, now very man completely manual, right? Like paper, green cards, pens, brain, human, whatever. And say, I'm gonna make sure that everyone that passes through this this gauntlet of things I'm gonna do, it reduces it so far, and you'll be the only game in town.

25:57 And I just went to the Department of Insurance and created a new rider that you can sell, that you could add to your premium on top of that. How's that sound? They're like, Okay, we'll give it a try. Well, that's how I actually got started with with the with parting with Civic Source, which was an online vendor for local government to toast their tax sales online. They were the first one in the country to do it, to put the annual tax lien sale online. This is back in uh two thousand seven. This is actually part of the post Katrina recovery. And so I partnered with them. They already had a relationship with the city of New Orleans and they said, Well, look, this is great. with the the the tax liens every year, but we have all these ones that didn't sell at the tax sale. And now we have this f massive inventory of unsold tax lien properties that we're stuck with. And that's a that's a sale of real estate at that point.

26:43 And like, but w nobody wants a Yep. And as long as let me just let me take this back to the uh layman, sir. Let bring this in. While there's a tax lien on a property and there's a owner who has vacated, you can't find them, they're not interested in the property, you can't sell it unless that tax lien is paid. That's the underwriting piece from a bank and a mortgage, right? They're like, hey, I'm not putting a mortgage on this property. If we don't know who owns it, who's gonna pay it, who's gonna collect it, and who's gonna put a p title policy on it. Is that correct or no? It's it's yes, but that's not but that's not the worst part. The worst part is is coming comes back to what I was telling you earlier. It's because there's a missing person out there.

27:25 And guess who that person is potentially if it's missing? A potential claimant. They're a potential claimant on that title insurance policy. Because what people need to on from the outside, tell here here's what we'll take about pop. They don't understand it. They know maybe they've had a title insurance policy because their lender required it. Right. But here's what you're trying to do. You're trying to have it's I'll just make their statement. You're trying to have a defensible warrantied title. Is that correct somewhere in the realm? Yeah, yeah, sure. So what's that mean? What's that mean? It it it means that they're pr they're ensuring that you are the correct owner, that nobody else from before you still has a stake in that property, that they can claim that they still have a right to that property some house and law.

28:08 Yep. And the bank and the bank doesn't want to lend money unless that's documented and an exact and somebody's gonna alleviate their risk. So if somebody doesn't pay that mortgage, doesn't take care of the property, they can collect their money, foreclosure, whatever it may be. Right. That's right. That's right. That's right. And so if an insurance company says, No, no, I don't even want to take that risk, then bank says, Well, then I'm not going to lend. And then investor says, Well, I'm not going to borrow. And then property sits. And so it's we we we created the system and and I and we rolled it out from City of New Orleans. And it was a it was a premise that if we can create if we can in all all but get you never use the word guarantee, right? But if you could all but guarantee insurable title of these cruddy old properties that nobody wants, people will show up and buy That was my hypothesis.

28:58 And what what what does that mean? You're creating a marketplace, right? Where there is really there is no commerce and all of a sudden you show up and there's mark there's transactions happening. And it worked. And it worked. And I think after five years in, which is how long I stayed there, um, we had sold a uh I think over six thousand properties that were that were written off. Like off like nobody's ever gonna want these, right? Written off, taxes paid and renovated and a homeowner living there pay like keeping it up paying taxes. Exactly what you want you're hoping to to happen, right? And why? Because we did a lot of really, really good hard work and we tracked everybody down and gave and and we you know it was under a under a legal system that allowed you to do this, of course, but it it all of a sudden it just worked and and now all of this thing all these properties are moving in the it so we s this spread across the state.

29:47 We have we I started I got out of the legal business, started getting into sales and marketing again and said, Hey, uh our our counties are parishes in Louisiana. It's like, hey, hey, parish administrator here, county there, city here, city there. They they all want this. It's no cost to them. The the investor puts a deposit down and pays for all the legal fees and they get a property for five thousand bucks with clear title. It's like, hey, that's awesome. Let's do that all day long. But it was a really laborious process. I was not an owner of that company. I decided that they were going through some struggles. I went, I went off and wanted to do my own thing and wanted to really become more of a part of this, this what I didn't understand to be this flywheel, but I knew that there was a bigger picture here than this one little slice.

30:27 And and so I sought to do that, but with a software technology angle. Um, I worked at a software company. They were so I there was a room like a the the old school like de engineering rooms, you know, like now you have like two people and And Claude, right? It's like that's the engineering room. Back then it was like 12 really expensive six-figured dudes who were like coding away like this. And that's where I learned a lot of this stuff. And I learned, I learned the basics of coding. I learned the basics of just like batch processing and and systems and you know, this the way that software gets built. And I took that knowledge into my my now my career, which had really blossomed through that that time period where I got put on the map more nationally.

31:10 I started writing, started speaking, started interacting with the national tax line industry. And now I'm on my own. It's like I was like I was teed up for a career that I had not yet really started. And and that's when I created JurisDeed still not knowing what that was going to become. And it took a lot of twists and turns. And that that gets into the whole like startup entrepreneur journey, which is a life of itself, right? It has nothing to do with what you're trying to build. Being a tech a founder is really super hard. And and it it it it's very humbling 'cause like 'cause think about where I was in my career there. I was prime, right? I was hitting on all cylinders. I was successful. I was a lawyer.

31:51 I was I had made a name for myself. I had all this stuff that then the claim to fame and I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna go do everything. I I'm I'm in the and then the startup world goes, No, you're not. Yep. Why do you think that happened? Why do why do you think that happened? Why did that happen? What did what happened? When you I'm gonna start this business, it's brilliant. Let me start it up and you don't get the support. um, you know what? I got a lot of support. I think what I was my own worst enemy because I didn't understand what I had I didn't understand what the journey was. I didn't I was just I just wanted to I was very, very type A. Very go, go, go. I'm gonna do my own thing. I didn't really understand that I had to kind of start over. I didn't understand that like everything you've learned, your subject matter expertise and all this stuff, like that's gonna come into play one day.

32:37 That's gonna be very valuable one day. But you have a lot of other problems to solve, buddy. And there is nothing to do with your subject matter expertise. You want to start a company? Yeah, what's it have to do with? If it doesn't have to do with the thing that you think you're gonna be doing that you built the business around, what's it have what's a startup? What's a new entrepreneur from your experience? What's it have to do with? Who wants to pay you for your idea? Who do you have something that somebody wants to pay you for that that they that over and over again? Like d what about more than one person? What about ten people? What about a lot of people? Is it something that the the that a market wants that can can with st can hold? Like, are you are you trying to create something that doesn't exist? Like it that doesn't mean your subject matters you may be able to write a paper about it. You may be able to teach a class on it.

33:22 Might be a theory. Right. Theory. But can you Build an actual business and a business is successful when when it's m it's it's it is making money and it's profitable, right? It's it's it's like the which means that there's a market for it, which means that the market has accepted it, and you're doing well, like you're you're growing and it all that takes is uh a lot more than your your subject matter expertise and it and it takes uh it's it's it's focusing your attention outward and not inward. It's about what is what are my customer who is my customer? That's it. Who's your customer? That's the next question. Who's your customer? Yeah, with that's it. With JurisDeed now that you know it though, now that you've defined it, who's the customer for JurisDeed?

34:08 I it's it's it's even l it less simple than that because it is not just one person or one category of person. It is a roadmap leading us into the b the greater opportunity. So what I had to realize is that our customer was an active tax lien investor who was actively investing in more than one state between one and five million dollars year over year assets under management, and which means that they're big enough to spend a lot of money and and and in tax lien investing, but not so big that they had this massive infrastructure of people in and systems. So they'd gotten themselves into a pretty successful like like routine, but they were overwhelmed and they were like, you know, papers paper piled up here and and only a few people in the office trying to pull all these strings and they were drowning in their own in their own investment, right? And that became the the prime example of like they were like, my God, yes, please. Like we and it was that's another thing, right? It's do you have a nice to have or a need to have product?

35:01 Right. That's another startup question. And when you we create a nice to have. It's easy to get like, okay, that was nice. Now you can go away now. Well, that's not good business, right? Because I need you to keep wanting my thing, right? And when you have a need to have, they call painkillers, right? In the in the startup world, you keep buying. You keep buying because you need to have it. And that's a good business. It's the stickiness of the business. It's the need for it, right? And if you don't have that from your first customers, you're you're not gonna be successful. So all these years later, who's actually paying you today? That exact I I I that I call it the ICP or idea ideal customer profile. That exact profile I just described to you is who we're paying.

35:43 Now we are in closed data at this point. So I will tell you that it seems like, well, 2020 was that was a long time ago, huh? Well, yeah, it was, but that's how hard this is. Like some people hit it off right off right out the gate, you know? And some people like, hey, I I'm I made money. I paid the bills and people paying me, but I didn't have the thing. I didn't have I didn't it wasn't working like it something I'd hit a roadblock and then it would all just fall apart. It wasn't until about a year, a year and a half ago, and all of a sudden I I I realized who my customer was. That's how important this is. And and then it just clicked. And that and now I we're signing up people to a platform that is is taking shape because it's not what I want. It's because I can go sit down at their office and say, walk me through your day. Tell me, tell me where because people will not air their dirty laundry if you just say, Hey, how's it going? But if you say, now tell me what's the s what's the first thing you do when you get that thing in?

36:41 And that that that that that paper in the door? What is you well who handles that? And then where does she go with it? And then who is that the third time you've done that? Or the fifth time? Okay, good. I'm just writing that down, right? Okay. Now would you rather be out the door at this point? Or are you are you okay with writing that thing down five times. Like like you start they they start revealing their dirty laundry as they're telling you their day, right? And then like, wait a minute. What if I could what if you just all that just went away and you didn't have to do with that anymore and like with w well that would you know, all of a sudden you start seeing like they start realizing the need. And guess what? Well now I'll go back to the drawing board and build that. And then It's coulda coulda go ahead, finish it. You said and then 'cause I I wanna try to get a metaphor to establish people's brain. Yeah.

37:23 Yeah, um i so the worst thing that that that and I d I I made the same mistake. The worst the thing that that kills startups more than anything else is building something that nobody wants. Yeah, they call it product market fit. They call it product market fit. Yeah. Bu or built more specifically, building something that nobody wants to pay you for. Yep. The market the market's not there. The market's not there. They are not interested in paying for that product. When they hand over their hard earned cold cash and say, Here, take that's when you have somebody who wants to pay you for your thing. And t not a promise, not a I think it's cool. Let me know how that goes, man.

38:04 Like none of that stuff, right? Is Juris Deed and Stephen Morell, are you sitting at this intersection that in the eighteen hundreds during the gold rush, you know what they say who made all the money? I'm not I'm not saying that I'm not saying the investors aren't making the money, right? But I'm trying to understand here, because if you hit gold, you make a lot of money. But the guy that sold all the tools and the materials to the gold miners, that's actually the ones that made the consistent money. But I would try to help you. I'm setting I'm setting the table for you here. in saying that do you know how to point him to the gold? You're selling him the material, but you're pointing him to the gold. Yeah. I you know what's a what's interesting about that, I I get that question, uh, not infrequently.

38:49 Um and the question that it that I'm I'm referring to is you're a twenty plus year subject matter expert and you figured out how to make a create a market out of these unsellable properties. You created the tools to do it. So why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you doing So answer so yeah so answer the question to the broad world, why aren't you doing it? I'm not doing it because I love helping others that do it. And I also think that the best opportunity is in helping them. And because they, there's a lot more of they than there are investments for me to be in. I there it it's it's like it's the it's sort of the franchise mentality, right? McDonald's is huge. Well, that's not a great example because their stocks just dropped yesterday. But I mean But there's still no there's huge revenue though.

39:31 I don't stock price yeah, there's huge revenue. And how and how much do they make off of a single hamburger in one at one branch in one town, right? You know And there's pennies, there's pennies going different places, but there's multiple streams of income. It's the real estate, it's the franchise fee. It's the they're probably making money when we pay to upsize and super value, you know, a mid, a medium, and a large they're that extra ten cents or a quart. The benefit is you gotta land the customer to get them in the door, and then there's multiple streams. But they're making pennies on these things, I believe. It it's a s right, they are. It it it's a s it's a scale thing. So if if somebody has to create Somebody has to create the product that everyone else uses.

40:15 And it's just it's a it's a place in life. It's a role that you play. Uh that's who I am. I've been creating products and things that can can be can turn into a business that makes money for somebody. And look, if back to the little kid story, if if that kid is happier now because he had this cool, awesome, yummy bubblegum that he could never get anywhere else, and now he's he's a ha I created I helped his happiness, right? Yeah, I'm a capitalist marketplace guy. Guys, if if everybody would get over this idea of folks making money and all that stuff, if they would understand that put them, put put our consumer hat on real quick and think about the things that we all buy, that you buy and that I buy. We go out into the marketplace and spend our money for things that we want. And if anyone is providing a product that we as consumers decide to spend our money on, that's a relevant product.

41:07 Now You want to do things legal. I don't I'm not supporting drug dealers and all this shit. But the reality is, though, if there's somebody to fulfill a need that another human who's a consumer wants, and you can make a profit doing that, and they're happy paying you the amount to buy the product, that's what marketplace and capitalism is. Our society. We have we have this great country today because of those simple ideas. The consumer gets what they want. Somebody provided the service and was able to make some money based on what it cost to provide. It's brilliant. The the the system of that is brilliant, and that's the same context we're talking about here. It it is and and there's there's probably one more emphasis point I wanna make on this because it it this is I I love passing along I there I'm s I'm very, very humbled by this entire process and I I love giving back and the like the local startup scene.

42:02 I'm one of the mentors and I'm and I'm so far from having made it. Like I have gotten to this point. But where are we where you know, you create a startup to be acquired or go out PO. That's it. There's no this is not a lifestyle business. This is a Grow as fast as you can to be acquired. Right. That is the that is the game. Um, and so I'm not there yet. But I've gotten past where most companies have failed by now. And that's a uh something, right? And I and it and if it helps me, I feel I feel more complete when I'm like giving back and and I feel like more fulfilled, if you will. Um, and and so I the the local startup scene that is I was I was in the accelerator. years ago and and now I'm a mentor and you know, so I do what I do what I can. But why am I telling you this?

42:48 Because when I started doing that, it I was at kind of at the crossroads of like the the third time that I tried to build what I thought this company was become and it it it still wasn't going anywhere. And I and I saw apparently I still haven't I still haven't figured the whole thing out. And I it it I've I think I finally figured out w at least part of it by now, which is You have to truly understand what your customer is going after. Because they're when they're when they need something, they don't need a title report.

43:28 They bought the title report from you, right? So you think, well, they must need title reports. They don't need a title report. They don't want the title report. They want to make money. They want to go home to their family at a five o'clock and says seven o'clock. They want to What do they need? You being the real estate attorney understands that entire systematic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. But but they that and this is I'm using my own example, but you can apply this to any business, right? Your what your customer was customer wants is not necessarily that piece of food. They want to feel full. You see what I'm saying? And I'm not playing I'm not mincing words here.

44:10 You might prefer that food versus a food that doesn't taste good. But really what you're doing is you don't like feeling hungry. You like feeling satiated, right? You like feeling full. And so You go buy the food because it tastes good, but because you need to not feel hungry. And it's it's it's if you apply that to most businesses, you're thinking about what is the finished story benefit of this customer? What does my product let them become or do with that they did couldn't without it? They don't want the title report. They want to go home early to their family. And if I can take that off their plate by doing it for them. then they're able to do that and they have a happier family, they have a happier marriage, they have a happier like they're able to spend more money on a vacation. Like all of these things, they want a happier life. And I'm point and and this is not unique to what I'm doing. This is all business, right?

44:59 You're you're you're solving a problem. You're solving a problem and you make a fee for it. And the more problems you can solve, the more wealthy you can become. That's what we're all that's a game we're all playing, right? That's when that's when someone wants a raise, they want a promotion, they go and get a second job. We're trying to create financial independence and trying to give ourselves freedom, right? And you've found a way to provide a service to an investor who's looking for an ROI. You're providing the service that fixes the cog in the wheel, that allows them to get a quicker ROI that expands it and they can do more of it. That's right. That's right. That's right. And and and look, I I I have little I have little kids. we we had my wife and I had kids late. I have an eight year old son and and it's it's you know, you have that that kind of cliche like, hey, you never you learn something new every day, right? And if you stop and think about what just said, like I'm fifty years old and I learn something new every day.

45:49 And and that it's very humbling and when you stop to think that like you're the world's much bigger than you and you're you never stop learning. And it it just allows you to grow more and and that was part of this whole process, taking off that lawyer hat, taking off that I think I I'm I'm all this and I'm all that and I know all this stuff and and it it it you don't and and it's okay. Ever we're all we're all in the same game, right? It's all the same boat. And those who figure that out sooner are the ones who are gonna are able to be more successful. And and I, you know, I I I don't have regrets and everything, but I'm I'm glad that uh at even at at at age fifty I'm able to I'm here now and I'm thinking about that stuff and I'm thinking about my customer's life, how they're better off because of the product that they're buying from me.

46:36 Yeah, it's gonna serve the community too. Take take me through the story of this one to five million dollar investor. That's your customer. That's the people you're trying to attract. I'm assuming you're like, hey, I've developed this system. I need investors to pay me to support. You're almost probably thinking I was like, guys, I'm the whole unlock to the algorithm. If I can just get these folks to call me and do this, I'm the one that's gonna make them the damn money. I'm I'm sure that's what you feel the system is, that without it, they couldn't have the same returns in the same time frames. Yeah. Yes. And with a one little other nuance is that some Okay. However, I know I gotta always add well here it's it's never that easy, right? So with our type of business, and not every business is like this, we're introducing a product that they're not aware exists.

47:25 Now un New investors, none of the none of the current folks. Correct. Correct. Well, and hence the the idea of a startup, right? It's it you there's no franchise book to say, hey, all right, go do this thing over here instead of over there, right? It's it doesn't exist. It's a whiteboard. It's in your head. And you create the whole thing if if you're lucky. And and so guess what? Your your entire I this idea of who this who your customer base is, this market, this segment of the market that is I'm calling my ICP, like they don't know you exist either. Nor do they even know that that the what you're creating for them exists unless you go tell them. And then you have a sales, you have two different sales shops, right? You have like first off, you need to r you need to admit to me that you have a problem, which is nobody likes to admit they have problems.

48:12 You gotta get them to talk, right? And then you have to say, and by the way, I have a f I have a solution for that. And the first thing out of their mind is gonna be, No, you don't. No, that's that's BS. That doesn't exist. Like, like that's that or or the the what? No, we we do it, we do it this way. We're good, you know. And like, wait, wait a minute, you haven't even seen the product yet. You're just like dismissing me. And that's that's very normal, like even from like a core like a core textbook customer. And it it it's just an appropriate strategy and an approach to finally break through with that. But you it is a it is a different task when you have to educate your customers about the that there exists a solution that they can buy, that they're not even trying to look for your solution, right? They're like, that doesn't exist.

48:56 Can I propose something here? This isn't a got you question. This is if me and you the camera weren't on, this weren't a podcast. This is the real curious brain for me. If it's this good of an opportunity, people have been buying tax bills before me and you were alive, I'm assuming. I don't know when it really started, but they were. Century. Yeah. It's been over a hundred. Okay. So if it's that good, but there's some difficult hiccups and cogs in the wheel, is that good, but you've figured that out. You know where I'm going with this probably. Why don't you get why don't you put together a fund and have equity from the knowledge that you have instead of representing people and handing this to them?

49:40 It's that's not it's a great question, but it's it's very similar to the one of like, well, why don't you just go be the investor while you're at it? Like like if you if you know if you have the secret sauce, you have the key, right, to go and like just go do it all yourself. Um Because equity's the gold. Equ equity's the gold. Like if if you go to folks, they would rather borrow money at a higher interest short-term rate to fund what they're trying to do rather than give up equity. Most people would. And there's the reason why VC funds and private equity, they want equity. They'll invest. They're not going to be a bank. They want equity because they know the good play is equity. That's all I'm wondering because I know how much. Now it could be, it could be, hey, I don't have a.

50:23 I don't have a group of people who want to put $50 million in on this thing. Right? I don't maybe I don't have the folks, but if it was that good and you're a good sales guy, because I I've again I've never done it, but I know some of our agents know people. They've done something and they've been successful. I just haven't seen anybody do it a big level because you always hear, man, this is really hard. Like I I'm actually echoing what you're saying without having any firsthand knowledge. There's a lot of issues with these and they're really hard. So whatever you've figured out, I think you have. You've put in a ton of time and if it's that valuable and you can reproduce as nationally, have the network of attorneys and understand all the local courthouses and all the legal pr you've built something.

51:05 My brain would be like, I'm not gett I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be their employee. Cause that's all that that's what I'm proposing. And so push back on it, but I just know me, like if somebody came to me and said, Hey, Mark, you're not in this field right now, but this is a great opportunity. And if you'll invest one to five million dollars yourself, I have this system, pay me the fees and do all this. My first question being the investor, not being in the business, and I might not be your target guy, would be. Why aren't you? And I and so and what I'm what because what I'm saying is I want you to say, well, I would, but I just don't have money now. Cause I just listen I just listened to a podcast of um Tony Robbins and a guy who they've created a fund so the average person doesn't have to be an accredited investor anymore.

51:55 You can invest with them, and they're investing in sports teams and all types of it's giving you access that only high level prof and what they said was they figured out I think I just listened to it on PBD's podcast that once they were willing to invest their money in the fund, it gave way more credibility to other people coming in. So I'm not saying that you could say, Mark, that's not what I'm doing. My business is just this. But I'm like, dude, this is the unlock for you to make your millions. But tell me I'm wrong on all the stuff because I'm I'm just I think I'm having the question that even investors and stuff would. So um So so there's there's a few different ways to look at that. So th there's the typical startup raises equity capital.

52:37 That's that's the textbook way to do right? So You saw it, the accelerators, you saw it. Yep. I did. I did. We mingled with them. Uh I went to the meetings. And this is and and by the way, it's it is not a match made in heaven when you just take startup founder and VC uh, you know, person and say, let me go just introduce the two of you. Yeah, it that's what you both do, right? You should just get together. And well, if if I can't explain and and this was my problem was was I if I don't know who my customer is and I don't really know what I'm building. And I don't know, like, do you want to invest in that company? Like, absolutely not. Like it sounds like you know what you're talking about, but maybe you just need to go teach a class.

53:18 Like, but can you build a business that I'm gonna make 30, 40 X on with my money? And that's what I need to be feel confident about. And unless you can commute storytelling became a very important I had no idea how important that was to be able to communicate what you do. And it's the most it's the most important. I I I literally said that uh not six months ago to in a in a mentor role to to you know, startup founder accelerator folks been I'm like tell me what you think that the numer the best thing 'cause nobody ever gets it right, right? They're like, Oh, um profit margin. Uh they're your product, your customer. Like, nope, storyteller. It's not the pitch deck. It's not the performa. It's none of that. It's communicating in very simple terms.

54:02 Here's my theory. I've expanded on it. This is what I believe. This is what it's gonna cost. This is what the product market fit looks like. And I believe through doing this, this is what we're all gonna make. This is why we're the ones who can pull it off and nobody else has. This is all that stuff. And so anyway, the reason why I'm telling you that is because like, well, I I I'm not gonna lie to you, I I I went down that road and I got turned down. I got turned down multiple times. Um now we end up to we took a little bit of angel investor money that not just from dad and from brother, but also like from local community angel investors. Not a whole lot. Less less fifty grand, hundred grand, hundred and fifty grand, stuff like that.

54:45 few hundred thousand dollars actually. But but but we're we're the the cost of what we're building right now is is is this is not a a pizza delivery app. Like not not there's anything wrong with that 'cause I love having pizza delivered to me too, but but this is it's just a massive undertaking and it it's expensive. Now the reason why we have been able to get away with not taking more than that than just that angel money has been because we started making revenue. like real early on. Now that's a double edged sword because when you try to build while you're earning, you have to also take care of customers now they're paying you. And that's a that is a quote unquote distraction. It's a tell that to somebody who is building and doesn't have customers and they'll hit you in the face. Right. They're like, you are you telling me your problem is you have custom like I don't have customers yet. I'm like, yeah, it is. But but you either you need money from somewhere.

55:32 Either you're gonna borrow it, you're gonna have it invested in you, or you get it from someone paying you. Like one of the three. And so We did a little bit of debt investing, you know, small business association loans and that kind of stuff and tried to kind of diversify and then we had revenue coming in. Now, we're at the point right now where we're we're we're kind of a fork in the road. So I I'm I'm almost we're we're starting to talk about like like if we can we do a series A like can can we are at the point where can can we 'cause we're over a million dollars in revenue. So like like can can we that's kind of what's up like the like the entry door to series A. They won't even talk to you, right? You don't have a million dollars in revenue. And like uh okay. If we wanna grow rapidly, like three years in and be be talking about a series C D and getting bought out, like you gotta you're gonna have to just you're gonna have to you have to massively grow, you're gonna have to spend a lot of money.

56:21 Here's your response to me on the quause I'm not doing it from a skeptical standpoint. I'm doing it from like, okay, I'm trying to learn and understand, like, hey, but here's what it's like, hey Mark, it's not the business. I'm the SaaS provider and I'm the new AI provider. I'm the guy building the system that you can use. That's my business. And I want you to pay me to use the system. Yeah. But that's true. But but the reason why and and I know that sounds like maybe a roundabout answer as I was not directly answering your question. Is because the the end game is to be acquired. So the millions you're talking about are not from me investing in the the product. It's from me building the product that some that the investors and reuters, first American core logic, black knight, they come and acquire you for one point two billion.

57:09 Is that the goal? 'Cause I cause my the other angle is finding a guy who wants to be in the business, one of the small dudes that wants to take those bad boys on. I it's fine I they still write a wrong answer. It's what do you I mean look there's there's it it is if you're if you're playing the wrong game in the wrong of the you know the wrong play in the right sport or what whatever you know I was saying is is it's vi the one I'm in is build startup, get acquired, and make lots of money from selling the startup. That's the game I'm in. And so you can't get first off, you can't get distracted by anything else. And it's the hardest thing for a founder to not get shiny object distraction all the time, especially. Adult ADHD. Like I I i I was diagnosed with it.

57:53 I was probably mad my whole life, but when we were growing up, you're not you're just a couple years younger than I am. It was a it was a stigma. Like you wouldn't admit that. You wouldn't go, you wouldn't admit to your friends you had you wouldn't get the go get the extra time for the test. You would say just grin and bear it. You you just go but your parents would have been embarrassed back then. Yeah. Yeah. It's a real thing. And and I and I had to go and I got diagnosed with it probably about ten years ago. And And I thought I p I thought I was lazy. I thought I was like le I I couldn't keep up with like I had these brilliant ideas but but couldn't make sense. But you couldn't put it together, couldn't make sense of it. You're like, how do I well it sounds you're doing it now. So here's here's the question then.

58:34 All right. Who right now, if you're a million in revenue, who do you need to expose to the product, sell to right now to accomplish what you want to accomplish? If if you want a huge exit, you and your investors if you want that, who do you need to get access to right now so you can drive your revenue so then you can have an exit down the road? Who is it? Who's your target customer right now? believe is that it is in family offices that are investing in alternative assets, uh diversifying into or already doing already doing tax liens. They understand the concept of it, but it's a lot of hard work and it kind of stinks.

59:15 Like like if that's the target and that's another it's another version of the same ICP I told you about a a minute ago, right? So it it is that cost grace. But here's the thing. I I mentioned them I mentioned when I told you about the the ICP the first time that that was the first of a roadmap of them in in the because our goal, my the one I have written on a on a whiteboard in my office is says to become the Robin Hood of Tax lien investing or del or distress property investing. Now what does that mean? That means creating democratizing the whole the whole thing, the whole game. A access, right? The same ones you're you're the guys you were talking about you were said you're listening to on the on the podcast with Tony Robins like they broke down All of these complexities have become a gate to the rest of the world from participating in it. That's it.

1:00:01 And and I know I have the key to that gate. So I start with helping the people who are already on this side of the gate to get my start. And then I break the gate down and let everybody else in. How close are you to that happening? I knew you were gonna ask that question. Um I wasn't going to until it just occurred to me. Yeah, that's okay. It's a fair question. Um I think that we are two years away. Is that an Elon Musk two years? 'Cause I ha I I do that same stuff. I'll put together a plan like, man, I'm gonna pull this off in eighteen months. And everybody else is like, yeah, is that like the same stuff that you said?

1:00:42 Well I'm like, Well, I don't know, but I know I'm gonna stick with it. And if it turns into three years, I'm still gonna do it, right? It's just it's just we we these entrepreneurs, these optimistic entrepreneur brains, we think we're gonna do more, but yeah. You know what? I nothing else, I'm consistent. Uh I I if you ask me this again uh tomorrow I'll tell you two years. If you ask my my suit my one day CFO, he's our controller and our our our pessimist in the crowd, right? He keeps us from like f completely spending all the money and flying off the planet. Um, he would probably tell you, man, he's got a strong Cajun accent. He's from down the bayou. He's like, man, we go we're gonna be seven to ten years before we get back out our money and I'm like, dude. He like Shut up, you're not gonna get anyone to invest in your company.

1:01:23 See, I knew you had some of those knowledge people. I knew that. I knew you had some of them in there. Yeah. Um so right now, in September of 26th, being on podcast, raising the awareness, um, what's the play? Like what do you want? This is it. What's the ask? What do you want people to do with Stephen Morrow and your business? What do you want us to do? We we have to grow. Um you cannot scale until you grow. it it it it sounds like a cliche or written on a on a board somewhere, but it's true. Like you people talk about scale, scale, scale, scale. You've got to do unscalable things before you can scale. So you have to get your hands dirty. And so what I need people to to do is I need to I need to build my customer base.

1:02:07 I have to get to a point where it's we have created this network across the nation. That's not a Louisiana product because I'm from here and I started here. It's not a only this one ICP. It is truly an industry product. This industry exists nationwide. Those barriers are in most people's minds barriers to you being successful. It is, you can't do that. That okay, oh okay, so you got the state of Louisiana where you're from there. Like, okay. Well you got that ICP because they were your network customers at first. Okay. All right. Well we'll all right we'll get the next How about how about go down to mid market and SMB? What about them? So it it and it's it's I'm not saying I need to be convinced.

1:02:50 What I'm saying is they're not half wrong. Like I haven't done that yet. So like that's where I need to grow the customer base so that the natural evolution of this business plan becomes materializes, which is multi state, multi-segment, and eventually we knock the gate down and it's open to everybody. Is the current product right now as it stands viable to a customer to have them improve their process or make a better margin than they're already making as it stands right now? Or is it still, you said it was kind of backdoor beta. Is it, is it, do you need to gain exposure, people to contact you, you're still working on it, have them be a customer. Is it ready for market or it's still not?

1:03:37 It is not ready for prime time. And I and that's hard for me to say to announce you know it to to the to the public. It it is ready for it is currently people are paying us for this right now. Which You're making a million bucks, there's something or something valid about it. Correct. Yes. The pain is real. The need is real. And it's not going away. Remember that the remember, what's the ultimate thing that has to keep happening for this tax in real estate? They're not going anywhere. You know, so this keeps happening and the investment's not going anywhere. So there's a steady flow of inventory that's that's it's infinite, right? That's a nice nice thing that to know about. And it's we've got to be able to demonstrate before we take this product and and actually and just go say, turn the light switch on, open the doors and say, who wants it? Right. Um It's very, very, very difficult to do what we're doing.

1:04:32 We are in a business that demands accuracy and compliance. At the end of the day, that's what we're getting right. And if you don't get it right, it's it's there's no there's no middle ground. You either got it right or you did not get it right. And if you don't get it right, you don't you don't get paid again. Let's say they're let's say there's some, even though it might not be your target audience, let's say there's some person that invests all around real estate and they've thought about buying tax liens in the past, but they haven't, or they bought one or two. And that's your potential new customer to utilize a service. Maybe the only What's the biggest mistake? Like if I were all the things that you would assume, me and 22 years in the real estate business, owning brokerage, owning commercial real estate, owning that whole process, doing flips.

1:05:17 Just keep on scaling the thing. What would be the biggest mistake me and other people like me would make being first time tax auction bidders and getting into the business? What's the mistake we would make? Lack of data, uh information tells a story, um it and it's it's real. I mean, there's a hundred years of data here. I mean it it's it's this that it hasn't been able to be uncovered until now, that we have access to it and can make sense of it and can and can tell can write strategies off of it. Um so if you are gonna like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna say I'm I'm gonna save some money, I'm gonna do this stuff myself, right? I I I have I have Claude, I have the internet, I can go look stuff up.

1:06:01 Um and you just go try to go wing it and do it yourself. Um your Um you're selling I know that's a mistake. Here's here's how I know it's a mistake. There's one time in my life I went into court and represented myself. And it was a disaster. And it was a disaster. But here's what it was. This is how ridiculous this was. I even called my attorneys. I'm like, this is stupid. I can't believe I'm going to court for this sign. One of my agents, it's not with us anymore, ordered a sign that I didn't order. They're 1099 independent contractors. I didn't even know the sign was ordered. The sign wasn't even used. The brokerage in the company didn't use it.

1:06:42 But it ended up being shipped to our address, some seven hundred dollar sign. Okay. The agent never paid the bill. Didn't, for some reason, didn't put it up on the property, didn't pay the bill. Three months later. We're served being sued that we owe this sign pro this sign maker seven hundred and something dollars. And imagine me sitting in my seat, something I truly had no idea. I'm like, what is even going on here? I didn't sign it. There's no proof I ordered it. Nothing. And I went, This is a no this is a no brainer. I'm gonna show up to court and I'm gonna be like, sir, judge, whoever, what do we get? And I called and I was and it was seven hundred bucks. There's not enough in it to pay an attorney to show up.

1:07:26 It took about thirty seconds and that judge ruled against me through like unjust enrichment and I was hit with the seven hundred and something dollar fee and had to pay the bill. The judge was an asshole. Yeah. I mean the judge was a total asshole, right? But I went, What just happened? If I would have had an attorney, it probably would've cost me more than seven hundred bucks. But if I would have an attorney, I'm assuming it wouldn't have gone that way. Who knows, man? Uh it pr probably not. But but I look I I I I'm not I don't like to practice law anymore either. So I I you I can get on this whole like like yeah d dig digging on a turn. He's thinking But no, but I'm saying that I'm going to set it up one more way, too. Yeah. When I have properties that I sell, I have a brokerage with a lot of agents.

1:08:09 I don't list the properties myself. I actually pay them to list and sell the properties. Every time I want to buy a property, and I'm the one who trained them. Every time I want to buy a property, I have one of our other agents negotiate and work the deal and they get paid on it. So if I'm in the business and I do it, there is value. in what I'm talking about, right? So I know how complicated they shouldn't do this themselves. So but I'm just saying like what would the mistakes we would make that we would know some of this stuff to inform us that we need you in a service and something like this that we don't even know about. Yeah, the first thing is understanding that this is actually very complex. Um, the opportunity is real. I mean, it it the opportunity to make on average fifteen percent year over year in a very safe, secure uh it's secured by real estate.

1:08:57 It's prior it's super prioritized. Tax things come first before all things else, even mortgages that come out come before it. Um it is backed by state and federal law. You can't get a safer potential investment. The only problem is that it's gated behind a ton of complexity and really strict legal compliance. Now, you could say if first off, you need to understand that. So you've got to understand the game that you're getting into, right? So you're you're in the hypothetic that you created, let's assume that they did, they read that book, right? They they found that, okay, yeah, all right, okay. I'm a smart person too. I can go figure that out. Um why are you getting into this investment? Why are you doing this? Are you doing this because you want to do the things that you need to do to be successful in it?

1:09:38 Like are you do you want to send the the first class letters and the certified male letters, do do you want to l go pull the records and find out who the the where the person died and where their hairs are? Like You wanna make fifteen percent on your money. It's a diversified way and all my other investments and I think this is good. You want to make 15% of your money. And you believe that this is a secure, safe way to do it so that you can grow a fund for your kids' college, so that you can uh provide have a have extra vacations per year. But that's why you're doing this. So stop and ask yourself. And and really you could you could you could extrapolate this to almost any other business, right? Like I pay for someone to cut my grass.

1:10:19 Why? I know to cut my grass. I used to own a lawn service when I kid, right? But I pay someone else now to do it. Why? Exactly. Opportunity cost. Opportunity. So But but here's the thing, like you you know how to cut the grass and you're not gonna F that up, right? You're you're going to but you might really screw this one up. And if and think about what you just said, if I if I am my own hypothet, that while you're doing this, for your family's security and safety and enjoyment of life, you're gonna put that on r at risk? Telling you, I was so stunned in court. It felt so wrong. It felt the most level of unfair and unreasonable. I looked around like, what is going on? And what what is this? Because I'm not a guy. And I went, This is the most ridiculous, stupid thing that just happened here.

1:11:00 This makes no sense. Right. And yet still it can go against you. So that's my point is someone's gonna do it to complex. They they need something like you're talking about, but I don't even know since I'm not in the business, I wouldn't even know what the hell the the problems that I can't even see the pitfalls. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And you do. That's what your system that's what the that's what you built here. And and and look, that that's that's why when we stopped at we took a lot of time, but we eventually figured out like not just who your customer is, but also like what the what the journey is to get to exit is to start with customers who are living with the pain currently before you go try to educate people that they don't even have this pain yet, but they need to know that they do. Like that's a much different sell.

1:11:40 And then the Robin Hood part is the is coup de gras, right? That is like you're not even in you don't even know about this investment. You don't even you think that you can't even get into this investment because you don't even know anything about it. I'm going to tell you that you get in that you should get into it. And then once you get into it, I'm the one you need to help that to work for you to help you through it. Right. Like that's a much bigger ask than I am living with this pain right now. I need help. Please, somebody help me. Right. And so for a startup, it makes a lot more sense to to get going and get traction and get and get foundation and then work towards that utopian goal, which is democratization. Now, look, to be all honest with you, that's our target. If we get we might get acquired before we reach that goal, then you know, that it that's a decision we'll have to make.

1:12:24 And and and very successful founders, the ones who are the most successful, they all encounter that problem at some point. And VCs typically will grind them into continue to go, right? 'Cause they want that valuation up before they exit. and then but yet founders state that are like, wait a minute, I can make twenty million today. You want me to stay on board until we get to fifty or a hundred. Like I How do I say no to a twenty million dollar exit? I'm fifty years old, like I'm done. You know? Like I but that w we're not answering to those investors right now. Now we we might think by this time next year we get on another podcast and be like, like, yep, um I I I Sold my soul. I sold Sold my soul.

1:13:05 Um so the stuff that I learned going to the ocean and bringing back that sour gum, I did it. So um here is what so what you need to do then is when this and this could help people listening to it as we get better and what I'm doing for my businesses. And when we put the podcast out and we send you the data or the rolls, and we say collaborate on these shorts and on reels, when you do that. You need to run ads against those to the companies that are already buying tax liens. That's who you're going after. Yeah, it is. It is. And I and I have a feeling that it's it's it's in family offices. and we haven't tapped that market yet. We've been it really we have we're still we this week we signed up two new customers that were literally from these same network where I made my nationwide presence known. Um in the po like like I'm still signing up network customers. I'm like it but that's a small it's a small group of people, right? So it's gonna run out. And I and then that's when we start.

1:14:05 So that's kind of where I'm already starting to plan for that now. Because I can see the writing on the wall and I it is who do I need to meet who where what channels do I need to start like chap you know, chopping into so that they this new uh segment that I don't currently know starts to interact with me and I start converting it into customers. What I know from people that I'm around, you should take, you should cut the good parts of this out where you were explaining thoroughly what it was. There's probably five or six Dave has a he's one of my guys, has a list. You should do the same thing, whether they send you the raw or whether you collaborate with these, you should take the ones that you feel highlight your brand and what you're doing the best. And through all the platforms, you run ads against those companies.

1:14:51 And it will show up. It'll show up. LinkedIn's probably the place. Right. Yeah, you can do Facebook and Instagram or LinkedIn against those companies and whoever those decision makers are, that's the place. But then also find out where they go. Is there an organization? Can you get on stage? Do you buy this? You know that. Um Yeah, yeah. yeah. well, hey man, we we talked about this for a lot of time. I appreciate when people are willing to sit around and and deal with the pot shots because here's what this is this is even more practice for you getting in front of those folks. Right. Yeah. I and and it's i I no, I I love it. I I I'm I'm a I'm a s I'm a game day kind of guy. I don't I don't practice as well as I am. When the lights come on I'm like boom, I'm on. It stresses about team out sometimes to no end 'cause they're like they're like ready because they're preparing for like the last thirty minutes. Like, where's Stephen?

1:15:39 I'm like I'm I'm like I don't know, I'm looking at like the roster for the game this week or something. There you go. And if the light comes on, I'm like I'm like it and it and I can kill it, but that's just how I've always been. It's just I want to see the day that whether it's twelve months or two or three years, man. I I hope you stick with this because and and Juris Deed sells for I don't know, maybe sells for a hundred million dollars. I I that those are the wins that if you will build something that has a huge of valuation and then another big entity buys, you provided something to marketplace the same point earlier, right? And people that stick with something and deal with all the bullshit and all the downside and all the doubting of everyone else and all the naysayers and people that wouldn't hire you. Every story of people hit it big and change their life, it is littered with all that for years in advance, and then there's finally that moment.

1:16:25 I hope that's you, man. I uh it will be. I I have that ca that is not arrogance, that is confidence. Um and that's where I'm at in my in my career. I can tell you also what I'm really bad at too. I'm I've I it's a double edged sword. I I'm this is I love Tony Robbins, by the way. You brought him up earlier. Like I it was a big part of I I not so much anymore and not not for any any bad reason, but just just just just you know, moving on. But it for a couple of years I realized that as when I was by myself and or had one other person That if I was not the best version of myself, if I didn't improve myself, this had no chance 'cause I'm a solo founder or I'm I have one other partner. And I stopped thinking about like, I don't think I'm doing I don't I'm not doing great.

1:17:06 Like I think I have a lot of potential, but I don't know that I'm focusing well. I don't know that I'm prioritizing well. Like all this stuff. And so somebody introduced me to Tony Robbins and I went to a thing and I was like, I just bought into it, man. You know where he got that from? You knew who taught him? You knew who taught him, right? yeah, J Jim Roon. That's it. Jim Rohn said it's about the person that you become. And Tony says that a lot now, too, right? It's not about the things we do, it's about the person that we become that does the thing that needs to be done. Bye. That's it. That's what you're talking about, right? The personal development, the self-development, the mindset, all those things. Yeah, no doubt. Kudos to Stephen Morell, man. Um, thanks for sharing this because this is what entrepreneurs we've talked about today.

1:17:51 And and the ins and the outs and the ups and downs. Entrepreneurship is messy. Yeah, it's hard. Startups are messy, it's hard. And and you have to believe when it feels like I don't even know if I see this thing happening right now, but you just keep going at such a level that you prove it to yourself that you can, regardless if nobody else does. So, man, kudos. I hope the Saints becomes massively wealthy. We can promote it a little bit, get some ads rolling, but um build the thing. There's not anything I think I can do from you up here too much because I don't have a network of the people you're looking for right now, right? But um who knows? I I I You're in uh Cincinnati, northern Kentucky, southeastern Indiana, but we have satellite off area? Are you in the Covington area? Yeah.

1:18:32 yeah. So I was I was there um was it three years ago, two years? Uh the so the Patriot boot camp, the the disabled the d D A V, the disabled American vet that they have a accelerator thing and because I'm a vet, I just signed up for all that stuff at at one time. And and I flew up there Yeah, you flew into C V G. Yeah, the Cincinnati airports in Kentucky. It's weird. Yeah. Right, Yeah, right. right. Yeah, you would you would have driven by our real estate building. It's a company called Pivot Realty Group. It's a high rise right on 75. That's where our headquarters are. And yeah. So that's that's what we built this through and for. But yeah, we're pretty connected in the area. But we're you we're now open a satellite in Raleigh, in Nashville, in Sarasota. So we've got growth in our mind like everybody else.

1:19:13 So we're connected to the business. Some of my agents have bought some of these, man. Like the And I just hear it from afar. I'm like, mm-mm. No, no. That's not something to dabble in. That's what my brain's always told me. That is not something to dabble in. have a I have a I have one other theory if you don't if you don't mind taking like sixty more seconds. I I have one other theory and it's untested. Um but that's what startups are all about is testing out theories and writing them off or going with them, right? Um it's nice it's it's nice to say right the Robin Hood of t of distrust property investing, right? Because that has a nice ring to it. It has a nice like I get I understand what Robinhood did to stock investing and and you know accessibility and democratization.

1:19:55 And it's certainly possible. But there's another way that this could go. Um, and that is that it ends up in the hands of benefit providers, employee 401k plans. So very recently, as a matter of fact, I think under the current administration, that became a thing, right? Where you now can choose to route your 401k funds into alternative investments and keep your plan, everything else that stays the same. Um and this is the kind of thing that they're talking about. This is this is in that category, right? And but it's the not the individual worker that is worrying about this. They make an election on a piece of paper once a year, right? Most of them. Now you can play more of a role by logging into your Fidelity account, whatever. But that's not really the the c that that's the that's the user in the marketplace. That's not the customer, right? If I'm if I'm the business, the customer is the benefit plan provider who has to bring you in as one of the things that that their fund invests in for their employees, right? And that's where I think that this could go.

1:21:05 Um and I it's gonna be interesting to to see. I think it's gonna be really just like like how this story plays out. It's a lot of different ways it could go. The safe bet is what we're doing right now. People who are currently investing in it are currently experiencing the pain, love need the solution, want the solution. It's a no brainer, right? That's a nice c that's a nice business. Maybe we get to up to ten million dollars and that's pretty cool. That's good for you to have the revenue to grow and build the thing. Correct. Right. But that's not what we're in here for. Like that's nice. And the people might be here and be Do you make a ten billion dollar business and you're saying you're not s like yes, I'm saying that because that is the game that I'm playing. I mean, that is the nature of a startup. All startups play that game. It and so I think it could get to that point where that becomes the exit. It eventually becomes used so much across the the plan providers um that it's That's our customer. Now that shifts who your ICP is, right? And so it all this it's just nuts, man. This whole thing could shift on uh uh a in a year from now.

1:22:05 You know, we could have a different conversation. If it be if it's your main priority and you spend a c you were in accelerators, man. If it's your main priority, the reason why people fail is is because somebody waved the white flag and quit. That's it. And sometimes though, there and you have to pivot. And it the business can be named the same, but it looks completely different. That's what you figure out when you don't quit. So you you get it. You've been around it enough, you know. I still remember the the the the pit the pitch day. Yeah. Pitch pitch day for the accelerator that was in here. The it's the what the biggest accelerator in the Gulf South. and I was one of twelve in in for that year and it was I remember the night before I was just a wreck 'cause I still didn't feel comfortable with what I was saying. And I knew it was not gonna go well.

1:22:51 And I had this pitch deck that was this pre pre AI generated decks and everything. And I'm sitting there trying to like move Foxes around and PowerPoint and that's th you know, like like an idiot. And and that's what I was worried about. And I got up on stage and I just started and and it and it went into like lawyer mode and it was it was awful. It it didn't go well. And I could because what do I what do I fall back to? Like what I'm what I'm good at? I'm good at like all the intelligence I ga I gained, the academia, right? And now everyone in the crowd, their eyes are rolling the back of their head because they're like, What is this guy talking about? I have no idea what this is. Instead just said, Hey, there's an he's a twenty six billion dollar industry that's been gated behind comp complexity by the wealthiest in the country.

1:23:34 And we're gonna knock those gates down and let everybody play. the story. I love that that's the story. That's the narrative, right? Here's what I'm gonna do and here's how we're gonna do it. I I would never have thought to say that though three years ago. And that and that's and that's the journey. That's it. Steve Morrell, you're the man, Juris Deed. Hey, they follow you on LinkedIn. Is there one place they should go to people want to hear about? And they're like, this is interesting. Where do they go? Yeah, so we're we are on LinkedIn, YouTube. we have our own podcast called the Innovative Investor Podcast. We started this year. Uh we have all of like a hundred followers if that yet. Um, and but we um we f we just got on Facebook because a big tax lean investing community on there, apparently. we our website's jurisdeed.com.

1:24:16 We are in closed beta, but there is a wait list on there. And I and I mean this is not a fake wait list, this is a real wait list that is filling up. And the first group that get is gonna get the product when we're out of closed beta is gonna be that wait list. So we encourage everybody if you're interested at all, it doesn't cost you anything, you're not getting spammed by anything. in fact, we're still working out a newsletter. You're not probably not gonna get anything, except we'll let you know when it's available. Um, sign up and follow us on LinkedIn, YouTube, and Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast. Awesome man. Thanks so much for having me, I really appreciate it. It's been a great, great conversation. Yeah, man, we'll follow you. All right. Take care down there.