#221 - If You Have to Be There, You Haven't Built the Business Yet | Bill Gallagher

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If you're always essential and if nobody
can ever do it as good as you,

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then the company will die with you,

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either when you die on the job or when you
retire.

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If you want to build something bigger than
you,

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you've got to give it away in a way that
it changes and grows beyond you.

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I was just having a conversation with Bill
here about the West Coast coming back

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from Arizona and you know, I like making
jokes,

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but he's so stoic. So we're gonna have
we're gonna have a guy today that could

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probably write books on r all the mindset
things,

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all the AI things, how to do stuff right.

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However, Bill Gallagher, he's an
entrepreneur and a four time CEO,

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has spent more than forty years building
and scaling businesses.

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That's gonna be more than just West Coast
talking surfing.

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He's helped grow two businesses from
startup to more than a half billion
dollars,

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spent 11 years running the jewelry company
his wife founded,

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and he's led four companies as CEO.

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Today is the founder of Scaling Coach.

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He's worked with roughly 800 companies
across 18 countries,

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and he hosts the Scaling Up Business
Podcast.

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His new book is Busy Is Broken.

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Do less, scale more.

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built around the provocative idea that
sometimes the biggest thing standing

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in a way of a company's growth is the
person running it.

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Wow. All right. Bill Gallagher,

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welcome to the Necessary Entrepreneur.

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Thank you.

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~ okay, let's just jump right in here.

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Cause you know, we're gonna talk about the
book,

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but what a title. I guess if the goal is
to have a lot of people pick it

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up and buy it when they hear about it,

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I think you check that box.

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Nice. Yeah, the title is provocative.

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You know, I've even been on ~ like local
news,

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TV news programs talking about busyness ~
to homemakers and that kind of thing.

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So this notion of we're all too busy is
something that we feel.

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I'm on the hamster wheel, right?

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I'm in the rat race. How do I get off?

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we we know there's maybe an issue with it.

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It resonates, e business or not business.

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And you've been hearing so much,

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like

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In recent times, lean in, hustle,

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grind. ~ you you got thought leaders and
authors and business leaders telling

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you more, more, more. And what I noticed
in my coaching and in my personal life,

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~ in my in my own business efforts before
coaching,

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~ some of the people working the longest
hours were making the biggest mistakes.

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And that's what led to the book.

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More isn't always better.

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This is gonna be so good. The two of us
talking,

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whether we agree or kind. But here's the
when you said here's these hangers,

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you said some, some of the people.

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Mm-hmm. A lot of folks want to believe,

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and I'm just gonna so I'm not
condescending,

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I'll throw myself in a lot. A lot of us
want to believe so often that we're self

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aware that we have emotional intelligence,

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right? So we know if that's us and if it's
not us.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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How do we how do we know if we're a part
of the sum or no we're doing

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it the efficient, right, good,

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healthy way?

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Well, I take the case that human beings
are all delusional to some degree,

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right? And so just like everything is
always falling out of tune,

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falling apart, right? the you're always
gotta be building.

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And if and if you take the case that you
are missing something and and what

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is it that I'm missing? What is it that I
don't see?

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That's a useful place. And if I would
think about the like

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Talking actually on a walk in through the
neighborhood yesterday,

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but it's a very recurring thing.

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Yesterday with my wife and walking around,

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I'm like, you know, I think in the end,

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the most important fundamental skill to
develop in business and

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in life is curiosity. Right. Like
curiosity is the power move for
everything.

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Be a better coach, be a better everything,

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be more curious, be less sure of yourself.

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Right. So the the first curiosity is
what's going on with that person,

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that

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customer, that employee, that vendor,

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that partner, like the person we're trying
to deal with,

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our kids, our spouse, what's going on
what?

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And then the second one starts to build
you look back at the person in the mirror.

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What's it like for them? First question.

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Second question, what's it like for them
to deal with me?

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And then what's going on with me that I
don't really see,

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that everybody else can see, right?

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Like I think that, that curiosity,

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setting aside what you think you know and
take the case that you're missing

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something.

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Let me try to break Yeah, let me try to
take this because this people have been

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saying curious for a long time.

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It makes a great podcast host,

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it great, it makes a great leader,

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it makes a great partner, a great friend.

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But let me see if I can ~ to challenge a
little bit.

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And and if I and if I ask something,

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you're not a guy who's just going to be
agreeable.

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So push back if it doesn't line up.

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But I want to help people understand this
idea of curiosity is the unlock for life.

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Let me let me try to say this though,

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but isn't it just about

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What's going on with the other other
person I'm talking about and less about
what's

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going on with me?

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Well, you're part of the equation.

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So what am I up to here? Where am I coming
from?

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What am I afraid of? What do I want that I
haven't said out loud even to myself?

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Those are all things to be curious about
with yourself in the mirror.

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Like what's really going on with me?

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Why do I keep doing this this way?

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~ how how recurring is this thing,

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you know, that I'm doing? I ~ I'll t I'll
t share a story ~ from the book.

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~ so

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I the like the maybe the big biggest
personal transformation story,

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right? So I'm running a jewelry business,

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business my wife founded. I've come in as
CEO.

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~ we've started to make some progress.

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Two thousand eight hits, the economy takes
a tumble.

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We make fashion jewelry and women stop
buying fashion jewelry

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for themselves almost completely,

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and our sales plummet by more than sixty
percent overnight.

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I'm thinking I'm gonna lose my house,

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I'm gonna whatever.

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As we start to work on the turnaround,

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one of the things that we assess with our
business and our life in that time is,

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~ our kids are 10 and 12 right now.

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And we said, so we're looking at some life
events.

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We've got a big event for our son in the
coming year.

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And we're like, wait, at this time,

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before they're teenagers and don't want to
talk to us,

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we're supposed to take big long trips.

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We said we'd take a year off or at least
summers off and we'd travel

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and we'd expose them to things when
they're old enough to remember,

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but not so old that they are snotty and
and won't talk to us.

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So we ha have both the business turnaround
that we're grappling with

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in the middle of, and we have this life
moment.

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We said that's what we're gonna do.

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And we said that to each other before we
had kids.

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So now we have this to grapple with.

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And we decide, no matter what.

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We're gonna take the time with the kids
because the kids matter more than anything

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else.

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Do you think y were you were you I don't
know if this right word,

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but were you mature enough as two adults

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To know if that's the right decision or do
you make an argument because

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you don't want to do something that's
irresponsible at the wrong time?

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I don't think there's a right or a wrong.

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Like you can't possibly know what was
right because you can't run

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out the other alternatives. Was that a
right or wrong decision?

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I don't know. It led to who I am today and
it led to my book and like

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a lot of things like that. So we realize
that we make that choice.

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We say and to each other and then we go to
the team at the office and we say,

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Listen, next summer we're gonna go away
for the summer and we're gonna take

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the kids and we're both gonna go.

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We're gonna go with the kids.

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And we're gonna be in a different time
zone.

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We're not gonna be reachable. I'm going to
Italy.

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And ~ that means between now and then,

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we have to change the way we work.

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You and I both, right? So I that's the
declaration,

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that's the public thing, that's the
catalyzing decision or action that

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I take that makes all the difference.

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So now for 10 months, roughly.

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I start pushing back. Every time somebody
comes in,

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Mark walks in my office. He's like,

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hey, I got a problem like this.

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Bill, what should I do? I say,

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Well, what are you going to do when I'm
gone?

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When a problem like this happens next
summer,

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how do you think you'll handle it?

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So I've got pictures of Italy in my
office.

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I've got sticky notes on the wall behind
where people sit next to me.

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Don't tell them what to do. Ask another
question.

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~ what would they do? What will they do
when I'm gone?

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I put various sticky notes over the next
10 months up.

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And I keep reminding, I keep and the you
know,

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the trip, I'm excited about it.

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It builds over 10 months. I'm super pumped
to go.

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~ but I keep pushing back on that.

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Instead of answering questions,

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I keep asking you a question. How will you
handle this?

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What would you do? If I wasn't here,

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how would you handle it? And then I just
become a coach.

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So I become a coach. ~ you know,

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I authorize and approve things and I
provide good insight for people,

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but

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I ask them, great, what other thoughts do
you have?

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What are the risks of that? What do you
need from me?

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Like, and then over 10 months they level
up.

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Now, in the meantime, the business
actually starts to turn around.

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By the time I go, we are we are really
coming back from that downturn.

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And things are really growing up.

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We have new team and that kind of thing,

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~ expanded team, expanded leadership,

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that kind of thing. We go to Italy ~ for a
month.

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Only, not the whole summer. but I couldn't
get away even with good business

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for even a week without being on calls and
Zooms or Skypes and email

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all the time and that kind of thing.

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I go away without a laptop. I go away with
just an iPad ~ and my phone,

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and we go to Italy for the month and we
have a fantastic time sailing

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and touring around and long lunches and
late dinners and all that kind of thing.

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I get a daily report, I get a weekly
report.

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Not a single intervention call or a long
email jag or anything like that

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did I have to do. The team leveled up,

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I leveled up, that old guy never came
back.

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So what's the argument if somebody's not
gonna actually go to Italy for a month?

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Well, maybe they should.

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Well, that's what saying. Is there another
alternative to preparing

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and designing and building the business
this way over a ten month period

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if it's not just about an Italy trip?

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I think there so there I share three
stories of CEOs who turned around,

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including one ~ who operated one company
one way and then had an epiphany

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and did the second company another way,

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a client in the story from Cincinnati,

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actually Larry Kavanaugh, ~ and he's in
the book,

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as well as a couple of others and what
they saw in the first one,

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what they resolved to do in the next.

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I think the easiest, fastest way to do it
is to pick your Italy.

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Now, maybe it's a trip, or maybe it's
selling the company,

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or maybe it's something. For many people,

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it's actually a trip. Hey, I'm gonna go to
Bali,

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I'm gonna do this or that. ~ a trip is
actually a pretty useful kind

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of forcing mechanism. and following the
book,

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it it it I led to I created a a new group
that's starting now called the unbusy.

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And the unbusy meets a group of people
every month,

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and we talk about, we go through the
exercise,

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the reflections.

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of leveling up our leadership,

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but everybody picks their Italy and what
they're gonna do,

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whether it's getting the company ready to
sell,

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~ improving their golf game or going away
somewhere,

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people pick an Italy.

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So y you say you learned the bottleneck
lesson the hard way.

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Mm-hmm. What was the specific moment so we
can learn and go there with you?

232
00:12:06,236 --> 00:12:08,087
The specific moment, the room,

233
00:12:08,087 --> 00:12:11,380
the conversation, like when you realize
like you were the problem.

234
00:12:12,376 --> 00:12:15,447
Well, I I think I actually noticed a
little bit earlier.

235
00:12:15,447 --> 00:12:19,689
So a few years earlier, when I first came
in to run the jewelry business,

236
00:12:19,689 --> 00:12:23,391
I had a background in tech and services
businesses.

237
00:12:23,391 --> 00:12:28,093
And I didn't have any background running a
business with inventory or a a

238
00:12:28,153 --> 00:12:33,045
f a more female oriented business like the
our customers and employees were

239
00:12:33,045 --> 00:12:37,617
all very women. That wasn't my world.

240
00:12:37,617 --> 00:12:39,288
So I came in and ran this company.

241
00:12:39,582 --> 00:12:42,724
In ~ the early 2000s, when the kids were
much younger,

242
00:12:42,724 --> 00:12:46,287
I'm still grappling and learning how to be
CEO of this kind of company

243
00:12:46,287 --> 00:12:48,002
and get it growing and that kind of thing.

244
00:12:48,002 --> 00:12:52,231
And I'm working late and doing things all
the time as you do.

245
00:12:52,231 --> 00:12:56,635
And my wife steps into the designer role
out of her prior leader,

246
00:12:56,635 --> 00:12:58,116
founder, entrepreneur of the business.

247
00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:01,618
And one day I'm working late and like we
all do.

248
00:13:01,618 --> 00:13:04,510
And I call and she says, dinner's on soon,

249
00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:06,092
get home. And I say, Okay, okay,

250
00:13:06,092 --> 00:13:07,092
okay.

251
00:13:06,786 --> 00:13:08,467
And then I take a little longer and a
little longer.

252
00:13:08,467 --> 00:13:10,217
And I don't know what I was dealing with
exactly,

253
00:13:10,217 --> 00:13:11,508
but this and that and everything.

254
00:13:11,508 --> 00:13:15,289
And and then I'm on the phone all the way
home and I walk in.

255
00:13:15,289 --> 00:13:18,581
I haven't wrapped up my call. I walk in
the door,

256
00:13:18,581 --> 00:13:20,892
I wave at them over in the dining room,

257
00:13:20,892 --> 00:13:23,743
and I I'm like, and I motion that I'm
still on the phone.

258
00:13:23,743 --> 00:13:27,995
And I I step over into the the sun porch
that looks back towards the dining room

259
00:13:28,095 --> 00:13:30,376
and I finish my call out of earshot for
them.

260
00:13:30,376 --> 00:13:32,276
I'm being a good dad. I'm stepping away.

261
00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:34,361
I'm not letting my noise intrude on them.

262
00:13:34,361 --> 00:13:35,878
I'm being sensitive to all that.

263
00:13:36,302 --> 00:13:38,603
It takes me another fifteen, maybe twenty
minutes.

264
00:13:38,603 --> 00:13:42,866
~ and as I hang up, Lori hears the call
wrap up and she walks over to

265
00:13:42,866 --> 00:13:47,169
me and she says, If you're just gonna be
on the phone when you get home,

266
00:13:47,169 --> 00:13:48,169
we don't need you here.

267
00:13:50,988 --> 00:13:53,639
And I like, I still feel it to this day,

268
00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:59,221
right? The the the inadequacy of trying to
be a good dad and failing.

269
00:13:59,221 --> 00:14:02,783
And we think we're making a personal
sacrifice to grow our business,

270
00:14:02,783 --> 00:14:05,404
and we don't realize it's not so personal.

271
00:14:05,404 --> 00:14:07,565
It's affecting all the people around us.

272
00:14:07,565 --> 00:14:10,206
And then you start to notice that kind of
thing,

273
00:14:10,206 --> 00:14:14,107
and you want to get it's actually
affecting the people in the business as
well.

274
00:14:14,107 --> 00:14:19,330
So there are four fairly tragic ~ stories
that are anonymized in the book.

275
00:14:19,330 --> 00:14:20,330
~

276
00:14:20,552 --> 00:14:23,544
Of Rocky and Lee and Thomas and Eddie,

277
00:14:23,544 --> 00:14:26,726
who ran their companies, different
companies in different ways.

278
00:14:26,726 --> 00:14:31,849
~ and they played out some of the sins
that I've seen again and again in leaders,

279
00:14:31,849 --> 00:14:33,290
where they failed to delegate,

280
00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:36,492
where they micromanaged, where they were
perfectionists and wouldn't ship things,

281
00:14:36,492 --> 00:14:38,853
and where they lost their strategic
perspective.

282
00:14:38,853 --> 00:14:43,636
In these cases, they were working so hard
that they ended up screwing

283
00:14:43,636 --> 00:14:46,378
the company as well. To use

284
00:14:46,558 --> 00:14:50,480
Are you still guilty of any one of the
four sins that you've weighed out today?

285
00:14:50,574 --> 00:14:53,797
Of course, of course. You're never
actually over them.

286
00:14:53,797 --> 00:14:57,269
Like you're mastering them. But I'll find
that I've hung on to something

287
00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:58,500
too long and like, wait a minute,

288
00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,432
why am I doing this? Why don't I give this
to my team,

289
00:15:00,432 --> 00:15:03,214
my assistant, like whatever? Or wait a
minute,

290
00:15:03,214 --> 00:15:04,705
why am I telling them what to do?

291
00:15:04,705 --> 00:15:07,147
Just let go. Like let them figure it out.

292
00:15:07,147 --> 00:15:09,650
You tell what the budget is and leave
alone,

293
00:15:09,650 --> 00:15:10,650
you know?

294
00:15:10,926 --> 00:15:13,909
Which one of them you've have you found
out that you or the people that

295
00:15:13,909 --> 00:15:17,809
you coach and you lead, which one of you
found that founders what that

296
00:15:17,809 --> 00:15:19,192
we rationalize the most?

297
00:15:21,666 --> 00:15:23,327
Well, we rationalize all of it.

298
00:15:23,327 --> 00:15:26,429
So in general, whatever your move is,

299
00:15:26,429 --> 00:15:30,431
whether you are a failure to delegate or a
a micromanager,

300
00:15:30,431 --> 00:15:32,132
whatever you are, a perfectionist,

301
00:15:32,132 --> 00:15:36,775
you're too in the business, any of the
things that you might be doing,

302
00:15:36,775 --> 00:15:39,396
those are the big ones that I fe see again
and again.

303
00:15:39,396 --> 00:15:42,558
~ you tell yourself, it's not that bad,

304
00:15:42,558 --> 00:15:43,939
and I'm doing it for a reason.

305
00:15:43,939 --> 00:15:46,221
The work really matters. It's important.

306
00:15:46,221 --> 00:15:48,442
What you don't see, and I had somebody
recently who's like

307
00:15:48,652 --> 00:15:50,493
Yeah, yeah, but Bill, you don't understand
me.

308
00:15:50,493 --> 00:15:52,704
I know you've talked to thousands of CEOs.

309
00:15:52,704 --> 00:15:56,856
You don't know me. I have a business that
has regulatory issues.

310
00:15:56,856 --> 00:15:58,667
We have fiduciary responsibility.

311
00:15:58,667 --> 00:16:00,689
We have to be a perfectionist about
things.

312
00:16:00,689 --> 00:16:04,090
I'm like, no, no, no. The business does
need rigor,

313
00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:07,312
but you don't need to be the
perfectionist,

314
00:16:07,312 --> 00:16:09,023
right? You could give that away.

315
00:16:09,023 --> 00:16:14,896
Look, I if I'm an airline pilot flying ~ a
plane with a bunch of passengers in back,

316
00:16:14,896 --> 00:16:16,417
I want to do everything really,

317
00:16:16,417 --> 00:16:17,878
really impeccably, right?

318
00:16:19,278 --> 00:16:22,560
And a lot of pressure comes down to me in
that role in that seat.

319
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,803
But even then, I use something called crew
resource management where

320
00:16:26,903 --> 00:16:28,584
we are working with each other,

321
00:16:28,584 --> 00:16:30,055
where we are backing each other.

322
00:16:30,055 --> 00:16:32,536
So it's not just a single pilot with a
checklist.

323
00:16:32,536 --> 00:16:34,548
It's two people checking each other off.

324
00:16:34,548 --> 00:16:38,430
So give it away. Let it go. Like do your
job.

325
00:16:39,052 --> 00:16:40,564
Yeah, so are you a guy

326
00:16:40,568 --> 00:16:41,568
Strategic.

327
00:16:41,385 --> 00:16:42,846
Yeah, are you a guy of threes?

328
00:16:42,846 --> 00:16:44,058
You know a lot of things are in threes.

329
00:16:44,058 --> 00:16:45,409
Are you are you one of those guys?

330
00:16:45,888 --> 00:16:46,888
I don't know what yeah

331
00:16:46,791 --> 00:16:47,872
Well I'm gonna ask a question.

332
00:16:47,872 --> 00:16:51,957
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And so ~ the
question,

333
00:16:51,957 --> 00:16:56,032
the context is what is s what is a CEO's
job in two thousand twenty

334
00:16:56,032 --> 00:16:58,525
six you feel like is is it a top three
things?

335
00:16:58,525 --> 00:16:59,525
Is it

336
00:16:59,328 --> 00:17:01,369
Really good. That's a really good
question.

337
00:17:01,369 --> 00:17:04,140
I'm always pushing teams back to fewer.

338
00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:09,382
So three is a thing that we often push for
for priorities and initiatives.

339
00:17:09,382 --> 00:17:13,344
And you often end up at five.

340
00:17:13,344 --> 00:17:15,125
But if you are targeting five,

341
00:17:15,125 --> 00:17:17,195
you end up at seven. If you're targeting
seven,

342
00:17:17,195 --> 00:17:19,337
you end up at like whatever. So yeah,

343
00:17:19,337 --> 00:17:21,288
threes and sevens are easy to remember.

344
00:17:21,288 --> 00:17:24,209
Fives are like, but the fewer you have,

345
00:17:24,209 --> 00:17:26,589
and if you don't know what the number one
thing is.

346
00:17:26,868 --> 00:17:28,180
Right, then you've got a problem.

347
00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:30,752
So in your role, that's a good question.

348
00:17:30,752 --> 00:17:34,694
Should you even have a job? Should you be
the company owner and founder?

349
00:17:34,694 --> 00:17:38,367
Or should you have an active role?

350
00:17:38,367 --> 00:17:39,928
And what role should that be?

351
00:17:42,176 --> 00:17:43,763
Is it allocation of resources?

352
00:17:43,763 --> 00:17:46,456
Is it is it selecting talent? Is it talent
acquisition?

353
00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:49,848
Anybody who gives you a pat answer for
that is kidding themselves.

354
00:17:49,848 --> 00:17:51,590
That's one particular view of it.

355
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:54,272
And and it's just like there's no formula,

356
00:17:54,272 --> 00:17:56,493
there's no exact inflection point.

357
00:17:56,493 --> 00:18:01,197
I can give you for any rule you name about
the number of employees or the roles

358
00:18:01,197 --> 00:18:03,018
or I can give you exceptions to it.

359
00:18:03,018 --> 00:18:09,513
And human beings are infinitely varied and
unique and we're all kind

360
00:18:09,513 --> 00:18:13,245
of special snowflakes, right? And ~ and I
think that

361
00:18:14,746 --> 00:18:18,409
Your version of CEO is your version of
CEO.

362
00:18:18,409 --> 00:18:23,772
And even if your version of CEO or
department head or manager or whatever

363
00:18:24,072 --> 00:18:28,325
is the one you want, do you want that
ultimately and always to be the only thing

364
00:18:28,325 --> 00:18:31,477
you do? Or do you want the company to
outlive you?

365
00:18:31,477 --> 00:18:35,840
Right. So if you want your department or
your division or your company

366
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,952
to outlive you, you ultimately have to
leave yourself with no role.

367
00:18:42,232 --> 00:18:44,086
So then you really are working your way
out of a job.

368
00:18:44,086 --> 00:18:47,875
And I'd rather have a successive series of
companies than,

369
00:18:47,875 --> 00:18:50,582
you know, the one company that maybe did
good or bad.

370
00:18:53,366 --> 00:18:57,432
In this world of information, we call it
AI,

371
00:18:57,432 --> 00:18:59,647
we can call it internet, the new age,

372
00:18:59,647 --> 00:19:04,817
whatever it is, with it supposedly having
all the information at our fingertips.

373
00:19:04,817 --> 00:19:06,560
It means it should be way more simple.

374
00:19:07,884 --> 00:19:10,415
Well, it's it's it just more complex,

375
00:19:10,415 --> 00:19:12,766
right? So there was a time, you know,

376
00:19:12,766 --> 00:19:15,215
when I I remember when I was very young,

377
00:19:15,215 --> 00:19:17,837
I was close to my great grandmother who
lived a long time.

378
00:19:17,837 --> 00:19:24,188
And ~ and I remember showing up one day ~
she would she would come out from

379
00:19:24,188 --> 00:19:28,571
her room and she'd go and she'd sit in the
dining room and she'd play solitaire

380
00:19:28,571 --> 00:19:31,371
and then talk to whoever was there while
my grandmother cooked and

381
00:19:31,371 --> 00:19:33,082
did her things around the house and

382
00:19:33,378 --> 00:19:36,531
I would go sit with her as a young boy and
she would tell me the stories

383
00:19:36,531 --> 00:19:39,984
and that kind of thing. And one day I
showed up with this Texas instruments
handheld

384
00:19:39,984 --> 00:19:42,606
calculator, which was really novel for its
time.

385
00:19:42,606 --> 00:19:44,447
It had the little red numbers on it.

386
00:19:44,447 --> 00:19:46,079
You punch and things very clicky.

387
00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:47,910
It was fairly bulky and that kind of
thing.

388
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:52,674
And ~ now by then we've already landed a
man on the moon and you know,

389
00:19:52,674 --> 00:19:57,959
like that. So ~ we're starting to have
handheld computing ability and a

390
00:19:57,959 --> 00:20:01,822
man on the moon, and ~ all these things
are kind of developing.

391
00:20:02,082 --> 00:20:07,016
There's TV and there's phones and and I I
show her this thing and and

392
00:20:07,016 --> 00:20:11,760
she like she shakes her head, she marvels
about what will happen in my lifetime.

393
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,412
And she's like, When I was a young girl,

394
00:20:14,412 --> 00:20:18,606
we had you know, we're fortunate enough to
have a little bit of help,

395
00:20:18,606 --> 00:20:23,620
but the family clothes were washed on a
washing board

396
00:20:25,301 --> 00:20:30,105
and hung out to dry. And you have a little
calculator and we have a man on the moon,

397
00:20:30,105 --> 00:20:31,105
you know.

398
00:20:31,714 --> 00:20:35,846
Just like, it's like, it's like so I look,

399
00:20:35,846 --> 00:20:38,017
our perspective on things changes.

400
00:20:38,017 --> 00:20:42,018
And we're now aware of things all over the
world all the time,

401
00:20:42,018 --> 00:20:45,940
but we're also pulled by little things in
our particular clique.

402
00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:51,032
Depending on your cultural background and
where you live and your political slant

403
00:20:51,032 --> 00:20:56,154
and whatever, you're being fed a whole
slew of things that fit your w worldview,

404
00:20:56,154 --> 00:20:58,885
and then you're swatting away things that
you don't like to hear

405
00:20:59,066 --> 00:21:00,206
and wish weren't true.

406
00:21:00,744 --> 00:21:02,595
And sometimes they get angry at you,

407
00:21:02,595 --> 00:21:06,558
sometimes you avoid them, sometimes you
seek them out just to get yourself riled
up.

408
00:21:06,558 --> 00:21:11,692
all of that like is is complex and and AI
today.

409
00:21:11,692 --> 00:21:15,635
My son's an AI developer. He built one of
the very big AI tools and then

410
00:21:15,635 --> 00:21:17,016
he went and worked on two others.

411
00:21:17,016 --> 00:21:19,148
Now he's a AI scientist, for anthropic.

412
00:21:19,148 --> 00:21:23,071
He thinks all the kinds of information
jobs are gonna be over in another year

413
00:21:23,071 --> 00:21:24,972
or two and he's not really sure what's
coming.

414
00:21:24,972 --> 00:21:27,084
He's really curious about it, but he's
like the

415
00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:29,797
The thing's inevitable, so let's like lean
into it,

416
00:21:29,797 --> 00:21:31,367
but I don't know where it's going exactly.

417
00:21:31,367 --> 00:21:37,109
Right. So they're very worried about
safety and all that and and doing their
best

418
00:21:37,109 --> 00:21:40,050
around it, but they but they like really
think it's all changing.

419
00:21:40,050 --> 00:21:41,950
And when I look at it in practical terms,

420
00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,611
it could either make you more or less
busy.

421
00:21:44,611 --> 00:21:49,873
It's just a powerful tool. You could go
down a rabbit hole with your AI ~
assistant,

422
00:21:49,873 --> 00:21:52,934
your y or any number of them, and

423
00:21:53,410 --> 00:21:57,413
Follow any range of thought and pursue
twenty different initiatives.

424
00:21:57,413 --> 00:22:02,076
And it it would just make it all or you
could pick one or two or three things

425
00:22:02,136 --> 00:22:05,928
and you could focus on those and then use
the tool to make you stronger,

426
00:22:05,928 --> 00:22:10,882
better, faster, and do things with more
for cheaper than you've ever done before.

427
00:22:10,882 --> 00:22:14,724
Right. I had ~ the AI help me edit the
book.

428
00:22:14,724 --> 00:22:17,226
I've got PhD research going on right now.

429
00:22:17,644 --> 00:22:22,037
I'm using AI as an assistant to find out
all the relevant studies before

430
00:22:22,037 --> 00:22:23,899
and understand them. And, you know,

431
00:22:23,899 --> 00:22:28,952
that's effective use. But every now and
then I I maybe I'm flying in

432
00:22:28,952 --> 00:22:30,763
an airplane or taking a long drive or
whatever.

433
00:22:30,763 --> 00:22:35,547
I start to pick at some random curious
line of something and I spin up

434
00:22:35,547 --> 00:22:40,270
a whole thing and a possible project and
an app I could build or a a script

435
00:22:40,270 --> 00:22:41,851
I could write or something like that.

436
00:22:41,851 --> 00:22:45,354
And ~ you know, I could I could chew up
hours doing that.

437
00:22:45,494 --> 00:22:49,940
Right. And knowing that that's like a
daydream and that I should just let

438
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:55,921
it go at the end is the wisdom of not
firing up too many projects just because

439
00:22:55,921 --> 00:22:57,610
AI lets you, you know.

440
00:22:57,848 --> 00:22:59,709
So when you were talking about the
different platforms,

441
00:22:59,709 --> 00:23:03,292
I think you almost said the word Muse and
then you realized that's Meta's new AI.

442
00:23:03,292 --> 00:23:04,774
So maybe you didn't. Am I correct?

443
00:23:04,774 --> 00:23:06,925
You almost said Muse. You almost said
that.

444
00:23:06,925 --> 00:23:09,207
Okay, I thought you did. And I was
wondering,

445
00:23:09,207 --> 00:23:11,369
but when you you just taking that term,

446
00:23:11,369 --> 00:23:14,071
I don't know if a lot of people understand
like Muse.

447
00:23:14,071 --> 00:23:18,114
And it it is a listen, I'm not an advocate
for any one of the specific ones,

448
00:23:18,114 --> 00:23:21,267
whichever one works for you that can help
you have some great development

449
00:23:21,267 --> 00:23:22,528
in your companies. But

450
00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:25,793
I don't think a lot of under a lot of
people understand truly what a muse

451
00:23:25,793 --> 00:23:28,175
is or could be or the role it should play.

452
00:23:28,175 --> 00:23:30,277
And that's tied in with this question,

453
00:23:30,277 --> 00:23:32,660
this not just a question on a podcast,

454
00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:36,450
but in this world of information that
we're just engulfed w

455
00:23:36,544 --> 00:23:43,030
in two thousand twenty-six. Do we do CEOs
want more or less feedback now?

456
00:23:44,504 --> 00:23:48,286
Well, I one of the things that I'm seeing
in the ongoing research.

457
00:23:48,286 --> 00:23:53,318
So the diagnostic tool we have and the PhD
research that I'm doing related

458
00:23:53,318 --> 00:23:56,679
to the book, ~ the gap that I noticed in
writing the book,

459
00:23:56,679 --> 00:24:01,721
I'm noticing that the CEOs are
uncomfortable,

460
00:24:01,721 --> 00:24:08,204
afraid, or unwilling to seek out ~ the
full feedback.

461
00:24:08,204 --> 00:24:10,795
We've heard about 360 reviews forever.

462
00:24:10,795 --> 00:24:12,666
There are other sort of deeper interviews.

463
00:24:13,282 --> 00:24:15,444
By and large, in my experience,

464
00:24:15,444 --> 00:24:18,756
CEOs aren't doing that round the clock as
a habitual thing.

465
00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:22,769
How am I doing? What like in many ways it
can occur insecure.

466
00:24:22,769 --> 00:24:26,672
I think many CEOs are afraid of the
answer.

467
00:24:26,672 --> 00:24:30,776
Others are worried about burdening their
people with something that feels selfish.

468
00:24:30,776 --> 00:24:37,231
but in general, I don't find a huge ~
interest or willingness among CEOs

469
00:24:37,231 --> 00:24:38,632
to learn how am I doing?

470
00:24:39,256 --> 00:24:40,532
Can I ask the big question then?

471
00:24:40,532 --> 00:24:42,261
Why

472
00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:42,531
Yeah. Why?

473
00:24:43,272 --> 00:24:45,714
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know
the answer.

474
00:24:45,714 --> 00:24:47,595
I I it falls in a couple categories.

475
00:24:47,595 --> 00:24:53,655
One of them is general fear. I'm afraid of
starting a conversation that like I

476
00:24:53,655 --> 00:24:56,082
~ i I might not be able to contain it.

477
00:24:56,082 --> 00:24:59,545
I'm afraid that they'll have criticisms
I'm uncomfortable,

478
00:24:59,545 --> 00:25:01,086
don't know how to have answers for.

479
00:25:01,086 --> 00:25:04,589
I'm afraid they'll give me new things to
do that I don't want to work on.

480
00:25:04,589 --> 00:25:05,589
~

481
00:25:07,232 --> 00:25:09,003
Like that. I'm afraid of the truth.

482
00:25:09,003 --> 00:25:12,025
~ the other one is I don't want to burden
my people.

483
00:25:12,025 --> 00:25:14,627
They'll the if I just give one more thing
to do,

484
00:25:14,627 --> 00:25:15,988
they're gonna kick me out, right?

485
00:25:15,988 --> 00:25:20,631
Like they're gonna reject me. They're
gonna ~ so that's that.

486
00:25:20,631 --> 00:25:24,504
so s ~ fear, concern,

487
00:25:24,504 --> 00:25:29,888
protecting stuff, ~ you know, it's all
kind of discomfort with with knowing more.

488
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,768
So if that's the reality of the weeders at
the tip of the spear or the top

489
00:25:36,132 --> 00:25:37,324
But many, most.

490
00:25:38,914 --> 00:25:41,603
Then is that indicative of the entire
Yeah,

491
00:25:41,603 --> 00:25:45,857
like it it but it then is 'cause CEOs are
just humans first.

492
00:25:46,508 --> 00:25:48,031
Yep. Unfortunately.

493
00:25:48,354 --> 00:25:52,602
So is yeah, so but it but is this
indicative of just the human experience?

494
00:25:53,538 --> 00:25:56,120
Yes. Yeah. We are human. Look,

495
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:57,981
we're uncomfortable. Like we don't,

496
00:25:57,981 --> 00:26:00,173
you know, we we don't like hey,

497
00:26:00,173 --> 00:26:01,663
give me feedback, you know? Like,

498
00:26:01,663 --> 00:26:03,666
~ you're about to get feedback.

499
00:26:03,666 --> 00:26:07,879
Okay. You know, that we make a face where
we brace for it,

500
00:26:07,879 --> 00:26:10,031
right? Let me give you some feedback right
now.

501
00:26:10,031 --> 00:26:13,363
Really? We're not like, hey coach,

502
00:26:13,363 --> 00:26:15,785
tell me how I did. Sometimes you are,

503
00:26:15,785 --> 00:26:18,237
sometimes in specific environments,

504
00:26:18,237 --> 00:26:19,258
people

505
00:26:19,532 --> 00:26:23,525
Become very coachable. People pull and
listen for the coaching,

506
00:26:23,525 --> 00:26:29,039
but it's a really artful coach who who who
keeps you receptive to it.

507
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:33,113
It's a really artful coach who you're
willing to listen to.

508
00:26:33,113 --> 00:26:38,327
Not everybody has a coach. Not everybody
is getting coaching from their life

509
00:26:38,327 --> 00:26:40,248
and the people around them, you know,

510
00:26:40,248 --> 00:26:42,180
beyond a like a formal coach, right?

511
00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:43,831
Not everybody's going, hey team,

512
00:26:43,831 --> 00:26:45,002
how'd I do? You know?

513
00:26:45,610 --> 00:26:49,524
And sometimes even asking can look we're
we're afraid of looking insecure.

514
00:26:53,422 --> 00:26:55,043
I was recently at a conference,

515
00:26:55,043 --> 00:26:58,504
not not to go into the one, but I was and
it wasn't just it was a high level,

516
00:26:58,504 --> 00:27:00,988
a hundred top performers in a specific
industry,

517
00:27:00,988 --> 00:27:05,582
a couple of previous top-level CEOs that
are doing this out of their desire

518
00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:07,573
to see an industry continue to move
forward.

519
00:27:07,573 --> 00:27:10,236
You couldn't pay these guys a hundred
grand to get on stage anymore,

520
00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:14,179
they don't need the money. But one of them
said he was talking about

521
00:27:14,179 --> 00:27:15,980
an analogy of sports, and you know,

522
00:27:15,980 --> 00:27:20,314
the old Vince Lombardi and talked about
Bill Walsh with the forty forty-niners

523
00:27:20,314 --> 00:27:22,065
and talked about systems and humans.

524
00:27:22,065 --> 00:27:23,065
But

525
00:27:23,948 --> 00:27:26,357
What's what's what's funny is is that

526
00:27:28,524 --> 00:27:32,565
Those guys as CEOs,

527
00:27:32,565 --> 00:27:37,108
I still saw them at sixty nine and seventy
seven years old.

528
00:27:39,138 --> 00:27:41,483
They were still taking notes at the
conference.

529
00:27:41,483 --> 00:27:46,434
They they they have millions in
investments.

530
00:27:46,434 --> 00:27:48,298
They're so independently wealthy,

531
00:27:48,298 --> 00:27:50,152
it's tough to comprehend for a lot of
people.

532
00:27:52,952 --> 00:27:55,864
But that's what leadership should look
like.

533
00:27:55,864 --> 00:27:57,206
But here's what one of them said.

534
00:27:57,206 --> 00:28:00,608
He talked about mentors as a CEO level.

535
00:28:00,608 --> 00:28:05,062
He said, You all, I have mentors from
folks that don't even know they're

536
00:28:05,062 --> 00:28:07,424
my mentors because we have access to who
they were now.

537
00:28:08,140 --> 00:28:09,140
Uh-huh.

538
00:28:09,922 --> 00:28:12,892
So if that's the case, and that's an
argument he made,

539
00:28:12,892 --> 00:28:16,855
then why are we even unwilling to do that
in our own private space?

540
00:28:18,422 --> 00:28:21,843
Well, I sometimes you are, right?

541
00:28:21,843 --> 00:28:25,345
Sometimes and with certain people in
certain situations you are.

542
00:28:25,345 --> 00:28:28,286
We all find moments where we become
coachable,

543
00:28:28,286 --> 00:28:31,147
where we embrace the teacher. It could be
formal,

544
00:28:31,147 --> 00:28:35,169
it could be informal, but there are these
moments where we let it in,

545
00:28:35,169 --> 00:28:40,111
right? And and there are people and
moments where we actually seek it out.

546
00:28:40,111 --> 00:28:42,502
Tell me how I'm doing. Give me feedback,

547
00:28:42,502 --> 00:28:45,503
right? I want to know. I feel like I did
good.

548
00:28:45,503 --> 00:28:47,764
I feel like I didn't do good. Tell me for
real.

549
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,741
~ so there but it's not normal and typical
for all of us to do that.

550
00:28:53,741 --> 00:28:55,655
It's useful to go out and do it,

551
00:28:55,655 --> 00:28:58,517
right? But but to pull the coaching to
you,

552
00:28:58,517 --> 00:29:00,808
say, you know, give me the feedback,

553
00:29:00,808 --> 00:29:02,819
tell me how I'm doing, tell me where I
could level up.

554
00:29:02,819 --> 00:29:05,681
Look, the I I don't know about you,

555
00:29:05,681 --> 00:29:08,183
but I ~ when things aren't going wrong,

556
00:29:08,183 --> 00:29:12,488
I look for who to blame and who to fire
and what to change,

557
00:29:12,488 --> 00:29:13,488
right?

558
00:29:14,286 --> 00:29:15,961
This guy. This guy, yeah. yeah,

559
00:29:15,961 --> 00:29:17,826
go ~ ahead.

560
00:29:18,094 --> 00:29:20,746
And I don't first and foremost,

561
00:29:20,746 --> 00:29:23,437
I mean maybe now with a little practice I
do it more,

562
00:29:23,437 --> 00:29:28,020
but in general my natural sort of set
isn't to look in the mirror and go,

563
00:29:28,020 --> 00:29:31,402
What did I do? Like how am I how did I
create this?

564
00:29:31,402 --> 00:29:34,263
Some people do that. In general,

565
00:29:34,263 --> 00:29:37,125
I didn't do it. And then when somebody
would tell me,

566
00:29:37,125 --> 00:29:41,758
How did you create this mess? I'd get
irritated at and defensive and I'd be
like,

567
00:29:41,758 --> 00:29:43,309
What are you talking about? That's those
guys.

568
00:29:43,309 --> 00:29:45,560
I need to fire those guys. And then
everything's gonna be fine.

569
00:29:46,036 --> 00:29:49,889
And but then who hired them and who kept
them and who allowed them,

570
00:29:49,889 --> 00:29:54,953
that's all me. So the useful thing is
actually uncomfortable and unpleasant

571
00:29:54,953 --> 00:30:00,417
as it is to say, is to realize that the
one in the mirror is the

572
00:30:00,478 --> 00:30:04,371
one whose world is defined and created by
that one.

573
00:30:04,371 --> 00:30:07,823
And to go, what am I doing? How did I
build this shit?

574
00:30:07,823 --> 00:30:10,926
How do I how do I change this?

575
00:30:10,926 --> 00:30:11,926
Right.

576
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,021
So it's empowering uncomfortable.

577
00:30:14,021 --> 00:30:16,114
Uncomfortable, but ultimately empowering.

578
00:30:17,772 --> 00:30:22,104
Yeah, if you can find and have a place to
exist and still feel good about yourself,

579
00:30:22,104 --> 00:30:24,404
because we can't be in this constant,

580
00:30:24,404 --> 00:30:29,626
monotonous place of self-critique at a
level that is miserable.

581
00:30:29,626 --> 00:30:31,967
Right? You you don't want to exist there,

582
00:30:31,967 --> 00:30:34,008
but you want to perform at an elite level.

583
00:30:34,008 --> 00:30:36,489
So you need to have this self-evaluation.

584
00:30:36,489 --> 00:30:37,545
I told someone the other day, well,

585
00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:39,090
this isn't to get you to agree with it,

586
00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:40,150
but ~

587
00:30:41,230 --> 00:30:42,531
I think it's the way you hold it.

588
00:30:42,531 --> 00:30:48,174
Like look, I can I can look in the mirror
and I and I have treated like

589
00:30:48,174 --> 00:30:52,617
a fundamental self-coaching practice in
broadly speaking as mirror work.

590
00:30:52,617 --> 00:30:56,879
I learned first the actor's technique of
rehearsing your lines in

591
00:30:56,879 --> 00:31:00,241
the mirror until you can really connect
with the person in the mirror.

592
00:31:00,241 --> 00:31:06,565
And ~ and then I started to realize
actually that's a more broadly speaking,

593
00:31:06,565 --> 00:31:08,326
that's a pretty useful thing. So

594
00:31:08,734 --> 00:31:09,955
As you're brushing your teeth,

595
00:31:09,955 --> 00:31:11,896
shaving, taking a shower, whatever,

596
00:31:11,896 --> 00:31:15,298
take a searing inventory. Who is this
person?

597
00:31:15,298 --> 00:31:17,659
Do I like them? Am I okay with them?

598
00:31:17,659 --> 00:31:19,540
What's good and bad about this person?

599
00:31:19,540 --> 00:31:23,632
What can't I be with? Right. And and
you'll see different things.

600
00:31:23,632 --> 00:31:25,773
Like sometimes you'll feel really good
about yourself.

601
00:31:25,773 --> 00:31:27,604
I'm look you. I'm doing awesome.

602
00:31:27,604 --> 00:31:30,426
And then other points you might be have a
more negative,

603
00:31:30,426 --> 00:31:32,707
you might be always finding the fault or
whatever.

604
00:31:32,707 --> 00:31:35,739
But if you could find the fault and see
the fault,

605
00:31:35,739 --> 00:31:38,080
but also love the person.

606
00:31:38,336 --> 00:31:43,548
And appreciate the person. Like if you
could see both and and accept all of you,

607
00:31:43,548 --> 00:31:45,599
you can then also go to work on you.

608
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,660
So I'm always like every day looking at,

609
00:31:48,660 --> 00:31:51,271
okay, who's that guy? Is he ready for
today?

610
00:31:51,271 --> 00:31:53,052
What is there to appreciate about that
guy?

611
00:31:53,052 --> 00:31:54,523
What is there to work on today?

612
00:31:54,523 --> 00:31:56,794
How did he screw up yesterday?

613
00:31:56,794 --> 00:32:00,395
Well, but it's not from a place of like
you're such a terrible person.

614
00:32:00,395 --> 00:32:01,916
It's like, no, you're an awesome,

615
00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:06,358
generous, ~ intelligent, caring human
being.

616
00:32:06,883 --> 00:32:09,011
And you fucked this up yesterday,

617
00:32:09,011 --> 00:32:10,778
but you're working on this today.

618
00:32:11,872 --> 00:32:13,062
I I told someone the other day,

619
00:32:13,062 --> 00:32:15,933
I responded really quick. They just they
were having the wrong mindset.

620
00:32:15,933 --> 00:32:16,933
They were living the past. I say,

621
00:32:16,852 --> 00:32:19,643
Hey, you all stop real quick. Regardless
of what it looked like,

622
00:32:19,643 --> 00:32:21,685
you all gotta have a good relationship
with the past.

623
00:32:22,348 --> 00:32:23,348
Uh-huh.

624
00:32:23,545 --> 00:32:25,076
That came out of wherever it came from,

625
00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:26,486
because I'm like, hey, it happened.

626
00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:28,787
You have to accept that it happened and
you did it.

627
00:32:28,787 --> 00:32:30,407
If you want to grow and move forward,

628
00:32:30,407 --> 00:32:32,107
I don't know if it's forgive yourself.

629
00:32:32,107 --> 00:32:34,928
I don't know if it's okay, but you gotta
have a good relationship with it and say,

630
00:32:34,928 --> 00:32:36,689
I did some shit that wasn't good.

631
00:32:36,689 --> 00:32:39,069
I wanna be better, I want to have a
different outcome.

632
00:32:39,069 --> 00:32:41,420
So let me make some changes on what that
guy would have done.

633
00:32:42,072 --> 00:32:45,273
Yeah. And sometimes it's little things and
sometimes it's big things.

634
00:32:45,273 --> 00:32:49,686
Like there's little things today that you
know that we're kinda I'm not proud of.

635
00:32:49,686 --> 00:32:53,377
~ and bigger things in more recent times
that I'm not proud of,

636
00:32:53,377 --> 00:32:56,309
how I handled that, what I did with that
and that kind of thing.

637
00:32:56,309 --> 00:32:58,890
But it's better to own it and like and
then move on.

638
00:32:59,534 --> 00:33:01,825
I mean, isn't I ~ this is how we grow.

639
00:33:04,824 --> 00:33:07,140
I think there was an example where the bo
do what?

640
00:33:07,670 --> 00:33:08,670
Not everyone.

641
00:33:08,604 --> 00:33:11,311
What? With the w the the way to grow is
ignore it and act like it wasn't you?

642
00:33:11,311 --> 00:33:13,698
I'm gonna learn the lesson of that other
person that they did this.

643
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,131
Lots of ways to live your life.

644
00:33:15,131 --> 00:33:16,933
You could be in denial for the rest of
your life.

645
00:33:16,933 --> 00:33:21,537
You could develop your anger and blame
everyone and be bitter and you know

646
00:33:21,537 --> 00:33:24,459
and and mutter on your on your front step,

647
00:33:24,459 --> 00:33:26,922
you know, and then and then go to your
grave.

648
00:33:26,922 --> 00:33:29,084
Take it, take it with you. Like it's okay.

649
00:33:29,084 --> 00:33:32,417
People do that. You know. You

650
00:33:30,510 --> 00:33:32,255
Brilliant words of Bill today on the
podcast.

651
00:33:32,417 --> 00:33:34,989
could also be clueless and you could die
happy,

652
00:33:34,989 --> 00:33:40,133
but you know, fully ~ red pilled and like
not you know,

653
00:33:40,133 --> 00:33:41,133
I'm lucky.

654
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:43,142
I'm just gonna see all the good things.

655
00:33:43,142 --> 00:33:46,556
You're right. And and lots of different
ways to live your life.

656
00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:50,090
I choose to like be fully, ~ eyes wide
open,

657
00:33:50,090 --> 00:33:55,476
not finished yet, working on myself and
and my things until I die.

658
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,634
Good and bad, hard and easy, I guess.

659
00:34:00,634 --> 00:34:02,277
Yeah. All of it together. Take it all.

660
00:34:02,277 --> 00:34:04,821
All so I I think I think you have an
example in the book,

661
00:34:04,821 --> 00:34:10,862
~ Tony Art Tony Hartle, two gems ~ to
forty three,

662
00:34:10,862 --> 00:34:11,862
you coaching him.

663
00:34:12,174 --> 00:34:14,987
fifty five now and over four thousand
employees.

664
00:34:14,987 --> 00:34:17,139
Yeah. And we start with this thing,

665
00:34:17,139 --> 00:34:19,482
but that isn't how he ran his first
business.

666
00:34:19,482 --> 00:34:20,482
Yeah.

667
00:34:20,108 --> 00:34:22,136
Right. So what do you have to give what do
you have to give up

668
00:34:22,136 --> 00:34:24,215
or stop doing personally for that to work?

669
00:34:24,215 --> 00:34:25,777
Like what do you give up? That's a part of
the example.

670
00:34:25,998 --> 00:34:28,179
Stop doing everything personally.

671
00:34:28,179 --> 00:34:31,022
His first business was a company called
Planet Tan.

672
00:34:31,022 --> 00:34:33,353
He grew, I think it was 17 salons,

673
00:34:33,353 --> 00:34:38,688
tanning salons. He was in there from dawn
until like midnight most nights.

674
00:34:38,688 --> 00:34:41,750
He was in everybody's job in all
departments,

675
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:44,552
across all people. They grew the company.

676
00:34:44,552 --> 00:34:46,274
It was successful. He sold it.

677
00:34:46,274 --> 00:34:47,955
He got quite a bit of money for it,

678
00:34:47,955 --> 00:34:52,018
right? and but it did ~

679
00:34:52,621 --> 00:34:58,182
Come at the expense of a really strong
team and most importantly,

680
00:34:58,182 --> 00:35:00,762
his family. So his marriage ended,

681
00:35:00,762 --> 00:35:03,273
his family became a divided family.

682
00:35:03,273 --> 00:35:07,724
~ and he spent 10 years reflecting what I
would do differently next time?

683
00:35:07,724 --> 00:35:12,404
What do I want to do? ~ and as he looked
around and he met with people

684
00:35:12,424 --> 00:35:13,885
in our world and other worlds,

685
00:35:13,885 --> 00:35:16,965
he realized, ~ maybe I don't have to carry
it all myself.

686
00:35:16,965 --> 00:35:19,243
So when he started the new company,

687
00:35:19,243 --> 00:35:21,586
is when I met him, I met him ~
introductively.

688
00:35:21,866 --> 00:35:23,777
Introduced by my friend and mentor,

689
00:35:23,777 --> 00:35:25,018
Vern Harnish, who's like, hey,

690
00:35:25,018 --> 00:35:27,070
Tony needs a coach. Will you work with
Tony?

691
00:35:27,070 --> 00:35:30,583
And Tony had just started ~ with a couple
of gyms,

692
00:35:30,583 --> 00:35:32,794
and he's like, Okay, it's time for us to
get scaling up.

693
00:35:32,794 --> 00:35:38,358
So we met with his team down in Cabo San
Lucas some years ago and not too long ago,

694
00:35:38,358 --> 00:35:44,553
all since COVID. And ~ and we went and we
started to map out the strategy.

695
00:35:44,553 --> 00:35:47,145
The first couple sessions we kind of got
the strategy dialed.

696
00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:48,446
Then we started to work on

697
00:35:48,748 --> 00:35:51,179
the people and the processes and the
financing.

698
00:35:51,179 --> 00:35:53,620
It was all very people and execution
oriented.

699
00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:59,662
And ~ the difference is Tony wasn't in and
doing everyone's job.

700
00:35:59,662 --> 00:36:02,343
So Tony mostly left people alone.

701
00:36:02,343 --> 00:36:04,964
Tony goes home for dinner most nights.

702
00:36:04,964 --> 00:36:06,885
Tony spends the weekend at home.

703
00:36:06,885 --> 00:36:10,487
Tony doesn't spend overnights away from
the family,

704
00:36:10,487 --> 00:36:12,808
right? That's the biggest difference.

705
00:36:12,808 --> 00:36:16,229
And because he's taking all that personal
time and still attending

706
00:36:16,229 --> 00:36:17,480
to his fitness and things like that,

707
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,480
he takes his fitness pretty quickly

708
00:36:18,592 --> 00:36:24,264
Seriously. ~ then ~ so his team is i i
very demanding.

709
00:36:24,264 --> 00:36:27,585
But I'll tell you, I've worked with an
awful lot of teams in the last 13 years,

710
00:36:27,585 --> 00:36:31,486
and Tony's team is such a pleasure to work
with because they're doers.

711
00:36:31,486 --> 00:36:36,207
There's not a lot of like weird emotional
games that they play with each other,

712
00:36:36,207 --> 00:36:38,438
and I don't want to do this, and I have
this opinion.

713
00:36:38,438 --> 00:36:39,928
I don't they're like, what's the game?

714
00:36:39,928 --> 00:36:41,439
All right, what do I need to do?

715
00:36:41,439 --> 00:36:43,319
All right, how does that affect you?

716
00:36:43,319 --> 00:36:46,200
Great, let's go. You know, they're just
doers.

717
00:36:46,538 --> 00:36:49,593
And and when somebody shows up who wants
to be a little bit more

718
00:36:49,593 --> 00:36:52,608
in that like positional game playing,

719
00:36:52,608 --> 00:36:56,244
~ drama oriented things, they're out.

720
00:36:56,244 --> 00:36:57,997
He's like, Listen, this isn't a place for
you,

721
00:36:57,997 --> 00:36:58,997
you gotta go.

722
00:36:59,394 --> 00:37:02,745
Hmm. What do you think with with AI?

723
00:37:02,745 --> 00:37:06,161
we had a minute or two conversation before
we hit the start button as well.

724
00:37:06,161 --> 00:37:09,004
And you know, you're close to it with your
son being an AI scientist.

725
00:37:09,004 --> 00:37:12,177
I mean, you're you're you're if you're he
he's on the bleeding edge,

726
00:37:12,177 --> 00:37:15,770
you're just one one deviation back on the
sword from it.

727
00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:22,287
But it's tough to know what's true and
what's gonna happen next year,

728
00:37:22,287 --> 00:37:23,608
let alone five years.

729
00:37:24,184 --> 00:37:25,791
Well the people building it don't know.

730
00:37:25,791 --> 00:37:26,791
So

731
00:37:26,722 --> 00:37:28,233
The human experience, what's gonna happen?

732
00:37:28,233 --> 00:37:31,498
But if you could project, since you're so
curious,

733
00:37:31,498 --> 00:37:33,330
on your walks, you're gonna go surfing
today.

734
00:37:33,330 --> 00:37:37,515
So maybe on the surf when you're avoiding
the sharks and becoming buddies with them

735
00:37:37,515 --> 00:37:39,277
out in the water in the Pacific.

736
00:37:39,277 --> 00:37:40,277
~

737
00:37:42,498 --> 00:37:46,654
What do you think, what do you believe
through all this experience of life?

738
00:37:46,654 --> 00:37:51,130
What do you believe could be the enduring
skill,

739
00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:58,029
value that a human leader will still have
where

740
00:37:58,029 --> 00:38:00,082
you think and your son thinks AI is going?

741
00:38:00,898 --> 00:38:02,488
Well, ~ that's actually a really,

742
00:38:02,488 --> 00:38:09,240
really useful thing. So I ~ I was ~
grappling with an AI problem a few weeks
ago.

743
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,551
And let me tell you two little stories
that illustrate this.

744
00:38:12,551 --> 00:38:14,622
The first one, I'm grappling with an AI
problem,

745
00:38:14,622 --> 00:38:17,993
I work all morning on it, my results start
to get worse and worse.

746
00:38:17,993 --> 00:38:20,564
I was spending I was intending to spend an
hour,

747
00:38:20,564 --> 00:38:23,204
I'm now four hours in and the and the
results are getting worse.

748
00:38:23,204 --> 00:38:28,556
I'm using Claude AI to do to try to
automate one of my business processes.

749
00:38:29,406 --> 00:38:32,569
I start to lose my crap over it and I am
like,

750
00:38:32,569 --> 00:38:34,831
okay, enough already. This is getting
worse.

751
00:38:34,831 --> 00:38:37,593
I'm now four hours in. I gotta go.

752
00:38:37,593 --> 00:38:39,635
And so I went out and I went surfing.

753
00:38:39,635 --> 00:38:43,898
And I I I I do this thing called it's a
kind of surfing.

754
00:38:43,898 --> 00:38:48,302
It's it's like a windsurfing, but with a
hydrofoil surfboard and a handheld wing.

755
00:38:48,302 --> 00:38:50,584
And I ride out San Francisco Bay,

756
00:38:50,584 --> 00:38:51,885
I ride out towards the North Tower.

757
00:38:51,885 --> 00:38:54,808
I come back now. It takes a minute to get
out there.

758
00:38:54,808 --> 00:38:57,510
I start to head back in towards the beach.

759
00:38:57,914 --> 00:39:03,468
And as I'm coming back, a whale like
breaches and flaps its flukes,

760
00:39:03,468 --> 00:39:05,499
not like two boat lengths in front of me.

761
00:39:05,499 --> 00:39:08,901
And I'm like, wow, that was amazing.

762
00:39:08,901 --> 00:39:10,802
And then the next thought is, holy crap,

763
00:39:10,802 --> 00:39:14,314
I could hit something. Maybe am I about to
hit one or is one about to hit me?

764
00:39:14,314 --> 00:39:15,936
Where are his friends and family?

765
00:39:15,936 --> 00:39:20,889
Right. And ~ so two thoughts
simultaneously.

766
00:39:20,889 --> 00:39:22,770
And then the third thought was.

767
00:39:23,736 --> 00:39:27,747
How things are organized, the context is
decisive.

768
00:39:27,747 --> 00:39:30,748
So if I hit it, if I see it at a distance,

769
00:39:30,748 --> 00:39:35,099
it's beautiful. If I hit it, ~ and I'm
right next to it,

770
00:39:35,099 --> 00:39:38,190
it's a problem. And and I realize that
more broadly,

771
00:39:38,190 --> 00:39:40,311
it's a thought that's not unique to that
moment,

772
00:39:40,311 --> 00:39:41,961
but I'm reminded of it. And then I think,

773
00:39:41,961 --> 00:39:44,972
the way I've organized my project is
wrong.

774
00:39:44,972 --> 00:39:49,574
It's not properly organized, and so I'm
getting nonsense of this AI.

775
00:39:49,574 --> 00:39:51,064
I probably need to try a different
approach.

776
00:39:51,426 --> 00:39:53,868
I finish my surfing, I have a beer with
some guys on the beach,

777
00:39:53,868 --> 00:39:57,491
and I come on back home and then I don't
know,

778
00:39:57,491 --> 00:39:59,763
before or after dinner, I reorganize the
project.

779
00:39:59,763 --> 00:40:01,544
It works fine. Like everything's going.

780
00:40:01,544 --> 00:40:05,247
Like I just had to step away from it to
get a little perspective on it.

781
00:40:05,247 --> 00:40:10,362
~ a week ago, I had a group of CEOs in
from the East Coast and from

782
00:40:10,362 --> 00:40:15,406
all different companies, a small forum
group from ~ they're all former EO people.

783
00:40:15,406 --> 00:40:19,069
And or actually I think a lot of them are
still EO people,

784
00:40:19,069 --> 00:40:20,640
maybe all of them. And anyway.

785
00:40:20,568 --> 00:40:21,568
So

786
00:40:20,849 --> 00:40:22,827
you're talking about EOS, entrepreneur
operating system,

787
00:40:22,827 --> 00:40:23,827
right? No.

788
00:40:24,246 --> 00:40:26,371
Definitely not. I'm talking about EO,

789
00:40:26,371 --> 00:40:27,905
the entrepreneurs organization,

790
00:40:27,905 --> 00:40:29,579
where all that stuff started, right?

791
00:40:29,579 --> 00:40:32,126
So going back. Anyway, that's burn.

792
00:40:32,648 --> 00:40:34,180
That's Vern Harnish, his organization.

793
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:36,704
It's all that. He was on a year or two
ago.

794
00:40:36,704 --> 00:40:38,100
We had him on. I love the guy.

795
00:40:38,712 --> 00:40:40,508
He's great. He's my friend and mentor.

796
00:40:40,508 --> 00:40:41,508
~

797
00:40:41,142 --> 00:40:42,142
He's

798
00:40:41,262 --> 00:40:43,115
still Australia, New Zealand, or I forget
where he is.

799
00:40:43,276 --> 00:40:44,839
Well, he's all over the place.

800
00:40:44,839 --> 00:40:47,380
I don't know where he is today,

801
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:48,380
but

802
00:40:48,403 --> 00:40:50,049
So so EO that or the problem.

803
00:40:50,094 --> 00:40:54,437
programs a year with him, so I will see
him in a couple weeks in Dallas.

804
00:40:53,590 --> 00:40:54,590
Awesome guy.

805
00:40:55,378 --> 00:40:58,331
Anyway, ~ so I've got this group in town.

806
00:40:58,331 --> 00:41:02,194
We go sailing and we talk about their
businesses one at a time.

807
00:41:02,194 --> 00:41:04,306
So I expose them to a different
environment.

808
00:41:04,306 --> 00:41:07,879
We sail out, sausalito, we go under the
Golden Gate Bridge,

809
00:41:07,879 --> 00:41:10,010
we go along Chrissy Field, along the
waterfront,

810
00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:13,513
we head towards Alcatraz, and then we
start to turn back and we make

811
00:41:13,513 --> 00:41:15,915
a little afternoon loop and then we go to
dinner,

812
00:41:15,915 --> 00:41:19,198
right? AI is not going to do you that.

813
00:41:19,582 --> 00:41:23,345
AI is not taking you on that sail and
connecting with that.

814
00:41:23,345 --> 00:41:25,807
AI is a really useful tool in terms of
processing things.

815
00:41:25,807 --> 00:41:30,271
I had all of them do a diagnostic that was
AI assisted before we got on that boat.

816
00:41:30,271 --> 00:41:34,414
But the real value came both in having the
human conversations

817
00:41:34,414 --> 00:41:39,819
and bringing the wisdom to bear on it as
well as ~ the time on the boat,

818
00:41:39,819 --> 00:41:41,570
putting yourself in a different
environment.

819
00:41:41,570 --> 00:41:43,002
That's where we reflect and we see,

820
00:41:43,002 --> 00:41:44,002
well.

821
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:47,023
I'm comfortable or I'm uncomfortable or I
I don't have enough adventure

822
00:41:47,023 --> 00:41:48,674
in my life or like whatever it is,

823
00:41:48,674 --> 00:41:51,346
right? That's the place where we we
integrate that.

824
00:41:51,346 --> 00:41:57,291
And then I think about like in in ~ I work
with a group of ~ early stage companies,

825
00:41:57,291 --> 00:42:00,954
excellers. We have 2,000 around the world
that that do this program with

826
00:42:00,954 --> 00:42:06,729
us for years. And we have them doing all
kinds of AI exercises around their money

827
00:42:06,729 --> 00:42:09,271
and around their strategy, around things
like that.

828
00:42:09,271 --> 00:42:12,364
And in invariably it'll tell them.

829
00:42:12,544 --> 00:42:14,346
And follow down all kinds of things.

830
00:42:14,346 --> 00:42:16,778
And then we'll pull back and we'll really
are do you think those

831
00:42:16,778 --> 00:42:18,740
are your brand promises? Does that sound
unique,

832
00:42:18,740 --> 00:42:21,623
right? So AI gets us part of the way,

833
00:42:21,623 --> 00:42:24,256
but it is not definitive, it's not
decisive,

834
00:42:24,256 --> 00:42:27,789
it's not very wise, it can follow down a
rabbit hole,

835
00:42:27,789 --> 00:42:32,534
it's sycophanti, it's just trying to fill
in the gap and answer the next thing,

836
00:42:32,534 --> 00:42:35,237
be predictive of what it thinks you want
to hear.

837
00:42:35,237 --> 00:42:36,237
~

838
00:42:36,566 --> 00:42:38,988
And so it's useful, but only to a point.

839
00:42:38,988 --> 00:42:43,112
When I work on like the secondary research
for my dissertation in the PhD program,

840
00:42:43,112 --> 00:42:47,986
I I do like I look for all these studies
and then I synthesize them.

841
00:42:47,986 --> 00:42:53,280
I went through more than twelve revisions
of that just the research section

842
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,443
of the of the ~ of the dissertation,

843
00:42:56,443 --> 00:43:01,998
more than twelve significant revisions
with AI before I got it to a place that

844
00:43:01,998 --> 00:43:04,310
I felt good about like turning it in,

845
00:43:04,310 --> 00:43:05,310
you know.

846
00:43:06,442 --> 00:43:07,442
Yeah.

847
00:43:07,384 --> 00:43:08,384
Part

848
00:43:07,755 --> 00:43:12,864
of something. It's it's not and even when
it's like running robots

849
00:43:12,864 --> 00:43:14,667
and flying airplanes and things like that.

850
00:43:14,667 --> 00:43:17,311
You can buy a Tesla today that does a
remarkably good job.

851
00:43:17,311 --> 00:43:21,018
You can get it in a Waymo. It does a
remarkably good job of driving.

852
00:43:21,634 --> 00:43:24,295
No, I just I want that's this is the
perfect analogy.

853
00:43:24,295 --> 00:43:28,086
When I was in Phoenix for the past two
days and I've taken Waymo's

854
00:43:28,086 --> 00:43:30,236
in Atlanta and Miami. Yeah. And I said,

855
00:43:30,236 --> 00:43:31,557
I haven't taken a long drives.

856
00:43:31,557 --> 00:43:34,558
So Waymo is in ~ Phoenix.

857
00:43:34,558 --> 00:43:37,318
So I said, I'm gonna take a Waymo from
Phoenix to Scottsdale.

858
00:43:37,318 --> 00:43:39,239
Up to the film. I'm going to. Yeah.

859
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,440
Got in and said, ~ we have readjusted your
time.

860
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,241
It's now gonna take fifty eight minutes.

861
00:43:45,241 --> 00:43:48,832
I'm in the car. I've booked it up fifty
eight minutes from the Phoenix airport

862
00:43:48,832 --> 00:43:50,272
to Scottsdale. And went, Hold on.

863
00:43:50,764 --> 00:43:53,687
The Uber time with a human drive in this
was thirty one minutes.

864
00:43:54,402 --> 00:43:59,553
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. I mean maybe there was
just an accident that occurred,

865
00:43:59,553 --> 00:44:00,553
right?

866
00:44:00,088 --> 00:44:01,792
Wasn't we didn't go the highway.

867
00:44:01,792 --> 00:44:05,531
It stayed a no. It it it it would stop
whites and stop signs.

868
00:44:05,531 --> 00:44:06,531
Yep.

869
00:44:07,468 --> 00:44:10,530
Yep. So maybe it maybe it's not allowed on
or whatever.

870
00:44:10,530 --> 00:44:13,386
It would be d depend on the who knows what
like

871
00:44:13,336 --> 00:44:14,336
Whatever

872
00:44:13,597 --> 00:44:15,668
it is, it wasn't the most it wasn't the
most efficient.

873
00:44:16,788 --> 00:44:19,859
It seems from your view at that time,

874
00:44:19,859 --> 00:44:22,571
but you didn't take both simultaneously,

875
00:44:22,571 --> 00:44:25,742
right? We'll never know what would have
happened had you gotten in.

876
00:44:25,742 --> 00:44:28,863
Look, I've been many times in an Uber and
I've been like,

877
00:44:28,863 --> 00:44:31,425
What hell? Why am I with this driver?

878
00:44:31,425 --> 00:44:33,926
Yeah. This guy's scaring the hell of me.

879
00:44:33,926 --> 00:44:34,926
Yeah.

880
00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:40,656
Then what did I do last night going back
from the Fairmountain Scott Steel back

881
00:44:40,656 --> 00:44:42,157
to the airport? I was like, I'm using
Uber.

882
00:44:42,157 --> 00:44:43,157
And it was

883
00:44:43,293 --> 00:44:45,171
'Cause you felt more confident in it.

884
00:44:45,171 --> 00:44:46,176
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

885
00:44:46,164 --> 00:44:47,164
It

886
00:44:46,324 --> 00:44:47,858
felt like it, right? So I don't know.

887
00:44:47,858 --> 00:44:51,415
I was just saying that it doesn't mean the
automated thing is the most efficient,

888
00:44:51,415 --> 00:44:53,179
best thing to reinforce the point,

889
00:44:53,179 --> 00:44:54,179
right?

890
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:57,412
Maybe and and maybe it is maybe and and
it's hard to like until

891
00:44:57,412 --> 00:44:59,172
you run more rigorous studies,

892
00:44:59,172 --> 00:45:04,875
right? We can't really know. I've been now
~ in the newer Teslas and used

893
00:45:04,875 --> 00:45:08,076
the self driving thing and just been hands
off completely.

894
00:45:08,076 --> 00:45:10,757
Like take me over to this store and that
store and that kind of thing

895
00:45:10,857 --> 00:45:16,060
and it's driving me around and I the Tesla
I don't love because it's so common now.

896
00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:20,241
It's just feels like the majority of cars
are becoming Teslas where I live anyway.

897
00:45:20,241 --> 00:45:21,262
~

898
00:45:21,654 --> 00:45:25,515
And I don't love that, but I do love the
idea of just punch it in and

899
00:45:25,515 --> 00:45:27,336
I'm gonna do something else while you're
driving.

900
00:45:27,336 --> 00:45:32,438
You know. I'd I'd love to just have a car
and drive her most of the unless it's

901
00:45:32,438 --> 00:45:35,679
a weekend and I wanna drive a convertible
through the mountains or you know,

902
00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:37,490
that's a different or down the coast,

903
00:45:37,490 --> 00:45:41,821
right? That's a different kind of thing
than getting if I just wanna get
somewhere,

904
00:45:41,821 --> 00:45:43,412
drive for me, you know.

905
00:45:43,788 --> 00:45:47,384
Yeah. I mean it's very it's a very pre
don't I only had anxiety the first time.

906
00:45:47,384 --> 00:45:49,768
After in the way mo after that,

907
00:45:49,768 --> 00:45:53,674
it's extremely comfortable. Then you
realize it yeah,

908
00:45:53,674 --> 00:45:55,197
it does a great job of driving you.

909
00:45:55,197 --> 00:45:56,197
Yeah, it's really weird.

910
00:45:56,130 --> 00:45:58,053
First time I got in a Waymo I was like,

911
00:45:58,053 --> 00:45:59,795
Well, first of all, it was quiet.

912
00:45:59,795 --> 00:46:03,211
There's no nobody smelly in the car or
like whatever.

913
00:46:03,211 --> 00:46:08,318
It's quiet and clean. There's like some
chill music on or sound effects

914
00:46:08,318 --> 00:46:09,318
or whatever I get in.

915
00:46:09,570 --> 00:46:11,473
No, it it hooked up to my Spotify.

916
00:46:11,473 --> 00:46:13,172
It started playing for my Spotify.

917
00:46:13,182 --> 00:46:16,538
Starts driving me and I'm like and it's
just smooth and quiet.

918
00:46:16,538 --> 00:46:19,794
It's not very fast driving. ~ but I'm
like,

919
00:46:19,794 --> 00:46:21,748
~ this is actually kind of relaxing.

920
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:26,465
That's it. All right. So so back to the
real world stuff so we can so

921
00:46:26,465 --> 00:46:29,079
we can help folks and then we can reflect
and help ourselves.

922
00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:33,355
~ what was the what was the hardest
transition for you personally from
operator

923
00:46:33,355 --> 00:46:34,355
to owner?

924
00:46:36,844 --> 00:46:38,965
Well, i it wasn't that hard at all.

925
00:46:38,965 --> 00:46:41,727
It's just about breaking habits and
building repetition.

926
00:46:41,727 --> 00:46:43,507
So I think if you're gonna break a habit,

927
00:46:43,507 --> 00:46:44,908
there's a few things that make a
difference.

928
00:46:44,908 --> 00:46:46,769
One of them is committing to something.

929
00:46:46,769 --> 00:46:49,040
That was my like committing to going to
Italy.

930
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:54,083
And then ~ and then practicing new
practices regularly,

931
00:46:54,083 --> 00:46:56,574
but then also having my environment,

932
00:46:56,574 --> 00:46:59,586
having the people around me pulling for
that new thing.

933
00:46:59,586 --> 00:47:00,586
So

934
00:47:00,434 --> 00:47:03,165
I say I'm going to Italy. I it starts to
organize me.

935
00:47:03,165 --> 00:47:05,025
Now I tell everybody else I'm going to
Italy.

936
00:47:05,025 --> 00:47:07,116
And to do that, I need to be a different
kind of leader.

937
00:47:07,116 --> 00:47:09,657
And so I'm working on this. I'm going to
work this way.

938
00:47:09,657 --> 00:47:12,598
Now I've committed myself. I have a plan.

939
00:47:12,598 --> 00:47:14,778
I'm working on. I actually had a coach at
the time too.

940
00:47:14,778 --> 00:47:21,100
And ~ and my whole people around me are
also pulling for this new leader to
emerge.

941
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:24,901
So that is a pretty effective way of doing
something.

942
00:47:24,901 --> 00:47:27,182
And even with that, there are moments
where.

943
00:47:28,210 --> 00:47:31,782
I like I'm stressed or whatever and then I
I go back into some

944
00:47:31,782 --> 00:47:34,163
old way 'cause that's, you know,

945
00:47:34,163 --> 00:47:35,944
forty years of growing up now.

946
00:47:35,944 --> 00:47:39,135
I'm sixty two now. But ~ you know,

947
00:47:39,135 --> 00:47:42,067
you you have years of of building up
habits.

948
00:47:42,067 --> 00:47:44,948
You don't just erase them with three weeks
of repeated behavior.

949
00:47:47,286 --> 00:47:49,087
So I think the book's been out about a
week now.

950
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,840
Yeah. As we record. Yeah.

951
00:47:52,726 --> 00:47:54,129
And this will probably be out in a couple
weeks.

952
00:47:54,129 --> 00:47:55,772
I apologize. We'll try to rush it.

953
00:47:55,772 --> 00:47:57,896
So it'll be out three weeks. Yeah.

954
00:47:57,896 --> 00:48:00,240
Yeah. Rush a quick with the winks.

955
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:05,110
With buy here. how do you feel right now a
week in?

956
00:48:06,262 --> 00:48:07,893
I feel really, really good about it.

957
00:48:07,893 --> 00:48:10,045
The feedback I've got, people are saying,

958
00:48:10,045 --> 00:48:12,917
get this book and this book. This book
changed.

959
00:48:12,917 --> 00:48:16,489
I'm taking this book to my all my my
coaching group.

960
00:48:16,489 --> 00:48:18,671
please come and speak. I've booked,

961
00:48:18,671 --> 00:48:22,093
I think, 20 talks now around the world,

962
00:48:22,093 --> 00:48:25,996
~ in different countries and that kind of
thing to talk about the book.

963
00:48:25,996 --> 00:48:28,257
People are saying really kind things.

964
00:48:28,257 --> 00:48:31,099
And when I read it to myself and had it
read back to me,

965
00:48:31,099 --> 00:48:33,791
I'm like, I I wasn't embarrassed about my
work.

966
00:48:33,791 --> 00:48:34,932
I'm like, I feel good about.

967
00:48:35,074 --> 00:48:37,325
the thing. So I feel pretty good about it.

968
00:48:37,325 --> 00:48:39,346
And the and the differences. And you know,

969
00:48:39,346 --> 00:48:44,518
it's like there's not any one thing that
has never been said by anybody else
before,

970
00:48:44,518 --> 00:48:48,740
but it's fresh and relevant right now for
something that I think

971
00:48:48,740 --> 00:48:52,722
not enough people are saying. And that is
maybe you should just chill out.

972
00:48:52,722 --> 00:48:57,204
And that you could actually build your
company and like reorganize the

973
00:48:57,204 --> 00:49:00,866
way you work as well and have a better
life and a better business in the process.

974
00:49:03,734 --> 00:49:06,155
All right, so you brought up the PhD thing
a couple times.

975
00:49:06,155 --> 00:49:09,766
What I notice in these conversations,

976
00:49:09,766 --> 00:49:11,476
you've had close to seven hundred of them
now,

977
00:49:11,476 --> 00:49:13,076
podcast wise, I believe.

978
00:49:13,249 --> 00:49:14,249
A little over. Yeah.

979
00:49:14,657 --> 00:49:18,638
When someone I always stay away from
personal stuff until they evoke personal
stuff

980
00:49:18,638 --> 00:49:19,746
a couple times. I'm like, okay,

981
00:49:19,746 --> 00:49:21,369
it must be important to them. Somebody,

982
00:49:21,369 --> 00:49:22,909
if they say something about their wife
once,

983
00:49:22,909 --> 00:49:24,347
I might wait a second time and I'm like,

984
00:49:24,347 --> 00:49:26,160
okay, it's an opportunity and the door's
open.

985
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,661
Let's go there. So I don't know what your
approach is,

986
00:49:28,661 --> 00:49:31,902
but that's what it is for me. So this PhD
thing must be close to your heart.

987
00:49:31,902 --> 00:49:33,452
Why?

988
00:49:34,702 --> 00:49:35,843
That's a really good question.

989
00:49:35,843 --> 00:49:38,996
It wasn't anything I needed or went
looking for.

990
00:49:38,996 --> 00:49:42,769
I it is related to the book.

991
00:49:42,769 --> 00:49:45,812
So the research itself is related to the
book.

992
00:49:45,812 --> 00:49:48,494
And it came late in the process of the
book.

993
00:49:48,494 --> 00:49:53,268
So I was already ~ most of the way through
the book writing and editing

994
00:49:53,268 --> 00:49:56,361
by the time it wrote it came to sort of
the foreground for me.

995
00:49:56,361 --> 00:50:02,456
A friend of mine started a university and
was doing MBA program ~ for entrepreneurs.

996
00:50:03,090 --> 00:50:07,093
And and she said to me, Hey, we're gonna
start a PhD program and I think you'd

997
00:50:07,093 --> 00:50:08,665
be perfect for it. And I'm like,

998
00:50:08,665 --> 00:50:11,877
huh. I wasn't thinking about doing that
and that kind of thing.

999
00:50:11,877 --> 00:50:15,640
But as I reflected on it and that and
thought about it,

1000
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,464
I thought, you know, at this age and stage
of life where I'm thinking about what

1001
00:50:20,464 --> 00:50:21,956
else do I want to do and you know,

1002
00:50:21,956 --> 00:50:23,187
I've accomplished some things.

1003
00:50:23,187 --> 00:50:25,649
And ~ I'm like, that's kind of
interesting.

1004
00:50:25,649 --> 00:50:27,140
That's an interesting challenge.

1005
00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:30,793
So ~ a deeper ~ kind of work,

1006
00:50:30,793 --> 00:50:31,874
a different cut at work.

1007
00:50:32,588 --> 00:50:37,730
that kind of thing. And I the the kind of
the full decision came to me

1008
00:50:37,730 --> 00:50:42,732
as I was driving up the H3 Hawaii ~
highway in Hawaii,

1009
00:50:42,732 --> 00:50:48,955
~ which it as you drive up that from ~
from the one the Kaneoe side over

1010
00:50:48,955 --> 00:50:55,908
to the ~ Honolulu side, ~ it's just this
sort of majestic cathedral of green,

1011
00:50:55,908 --> 00:50:57,678
you know, mountains around you.

1012
00:50:57,678 --> 00:51:01,470
And as I drove up there, I it caused me to
to be in awe.

1013
00:51:01,794 --> 00:51:05,125
And to think about my life and to think
about the time I spent living there

1014
00:51:05,125 --> 00:51:09,656
as a kid and how we were living there when
my dad worked on his PhD.

1015
00:51:09,656 --> 00:51:14,058
And then I thought, God, that's that's
kind this is a f interesting challenge.

1016
00:51:14,058 --> 00:51:19,079
I should do this. So it wasn't in solving
anything.

1017
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:21,010
I didn't have a plan to be a professor.

1018
00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:25,971
I've taught at university a couple of
times as a executive lecturer,

1019
00:51:25,971 --> 00:51:28,802
but ~ no, it was just

1020
00:51:29,934 --> 00:51:31,945
purely of interest thing, but it is
related to the book,

1021
00:51:31,945 --> 00:51:35,410
which is why I talk about it. And I'm
noticing some things in the research now.

1022
00:51:35,410 --> 00:51:37,572
~ we're kind of in the middle of the
research.

1023
00:51:37,572 --> 00:51:38,773
Parts of it aren't going well.

1024
00:51:38,773 --> 00:51:41,376
Parts of it are going well. So I'm
grappling with that.

1025
00:51:42,638 --> 00:51:43,892
When you say it's not going well,

1026
00:51:43,892 --> 00:51:47,714
give us the perspective of going through
earning,

1027
00:51:47,714 --> 00:51:50,112
becoming a PhD that's not going well.

1028
00:51:52,322 --> 00:51:56,924
Well the the like the the learning and the
research and the like the

1029
00:51:56,924 --> 00:51:58,964
the inquiry is going really well.

1030
00:51:58,964 --> 00:52:02,206
that part it it feels like home to me.

1031
00:52:02,206 --> 00:52:04,897
~ I'm enjoying that a great deal,

1032
00:52:04,897 --> 00:52:07,468
the like the intellectual rigor and
inquiry.

1033
00:52:07,468 --> 00:52:11,799
What's not going well is I thought it
would be easier to get CEOs

1034
00:52:11,799 --> 00:52:13,430
to participate in the study.

1035
00:52:13,824 --> 00:52:16,625
And fully to participate in it as it's
designed.

1036
00:52:16,625 --> 00:52:22,036
And I noticed that even though we've
reached out now to more than 60,000 CEOs

1037
00:52:22,036 --> 00:52:26,058
to invite to participate in the survey
through different people's lists

1038
00:52:26,058 --> 00:52:28,688
and things like that, the number of people
who are actually,

1039
00:52:28,688 --> 00:52:31,379
yes, I'll contribute is pretty small.

1040
00:52:31,379 --> 00:52:36,480
And the number of ~ people who are gonna
do it as designed and

1041
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,911
get feedback from their subordinates as
well,

1042
00:52:38,911 --> 00:52:41,642
part into the study is much smaller.

1043
00:52:42,016 --> 00:52:46,248
So ~ that part is not going well and it's
forcing us to rethink maybe

1044
00:52:46,248 --> 00:52:50,419
we should examine that and or maybe we
should try another approach

1045
00:52:50,419 --> 00:52:54,671
to figure out like is it an hours test or
is it something else?

1046
00:52:54,671 --> 00:53:00,293
So the scope and nature of the of the
study is changing now.

1047
00:53:00,293 --> 00:53:02,433
~ and I don't know where it'll go yet,

1048
00:53:02,433 --> 00:53:03,934
but we're still in the middle of that.

1049
00:53:05,804 --> 00:53:07,895
You also brought up your age twice.

1050
00:53:07,895 --> 00:53:12,239
You said the actual H once, but then you
referred to age again.

1051
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,842
There must be something happening in your
brain being sixty two about

1052
00:53:16,802 --> 00:53:17,802
Well,

1053
00:53:17,002 --> 00:53:20,703
I turned sixty two last week and because
of the timing of the book

1054
00:53:20,703 --> 00:53:22,284
was roughly around the birthday,

1055
00:53:22,284 --> 00:53:26,735
I thought, why don't we just release the
book on my birthday so that ~

1056
00:53:26,735 --> 00:53:30,686
my gift and my celebration is the gift out
to others,

1057
00:53:30,686 --> 00:53:32,186
is the expression of the book.

1058
00:53:32,186 --> 00:53:38,438
So I just I I let them overlap in that way
and ~ so it's top of mind.

1059
00:53:38,438 --> 00:53:43,676
~ also, ~ sixty two I had the first time
somebody said,

1060
00:53:44,878 --> 00:53:48,055
I forget what it was. And then my wife
said two senior discounts and I was like,

1061
00:53:48,055 --> 00:53:50,060
~ Jesus, we're in that territory now.

1062
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:51,894
~ that's a weird thing.

1063
00:53:52,814 --> 00:53:56,920
So how's it feel the vulnerable stuff,

1064
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,354
the truth? How's it feel to

1065
00:53:59,864 --> 00:54:00,864
so

1066
00:54:00,445 --> 00:54:01,445
be sixty two?

1067
00:54:04,332 --> 00:54:08,475
Mostly well, so there's moments where your
body is uncomfortable or

1068
00:54:08,475 --> 00:54:11,168
you have trouble doing this or that or
like that kind of thing.

1069
00:54:11,168 --> 00:54:16,752
but you know, I do this thing wing surfing
and ~ so mostly I feel like

1070
00:54:16,752 --> 00:54:22,137
a badass at sixty two ~ and I still have a
fair amount of swagger for sixty two.

1071
00:54:22,137 --> 00:54:25,139
and I feel good about my life,

1072
00:54:25,139 --> 00:54:27,321
like if my life ended today, you know,

1073
00:54:27,321 --> 00:54:30,574
I I will people say nice things about me,

1074
00:54:30,574 --> 00:54:33,206
it turned out okay. ~ so

1075
00:54:33,780 --> 00:54:38,325
That all feels pretty good. There are some
times where I I feel humbled

1076
00:54:38,325 --> 00:54:41,548
by something or whatever and I'm reminded,

1077
00:54:41,548 --> 00:54:43,220
that's a quite a bit harder now.

1078
00:54:43,220 --> 00:54:45,973
I can't drink as much or stay up as late
or whatever,

1079
00:54:45,973 --> 00:54:48,378
'cause I know that I'm gonna wake up at
four in the morning anyway,

1080
00:54:48,378 --> 00:54:49,378
you know.

1081
00:54:50,030 --> 00:54:52,971
You ever humbered humbled by the younger
generations too?

1082
00:54:52,971 --> 00:54:54,849
Including your son, the things he's doing?

1083
00:54:55,822 --> 00:55:01,175
yeah. So my son's financial and business
accomplishments at twenty nine have
already

1084
00:55:01,175 --> 00:55:03,726
exceeded my whole flipping career.

1085
00:55:03,726 --> 00:55:07,688
Not ~ his direct impact, his indirect
impact,

1086
00:55:07,688 --> 00:55:11,850
like the the millions of people who are
now affected by his work worldwide.

1087
00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:15,262
And it's really fascinating, ~ to see
that.

1088
00:55:15,262 --> 00:55:19,273
So that aspect of it and what he's doing
is surreal,

1089
00:55:19,273 --> 00:55:20,334
right? Like the

1090
00:55:20,810 --> 00:55:22,931
what that will be in the next couple of
years.

1091
00:55:22,931 --> 00:55:24,552
That company's about to go public.

1092
00:55:24,552 --> 00:55:27,073
It's gonna be e extraordinary.

1093
00:55:27,073 --> 00:55:31,336
~ I'll tell you, it's cool to see him
because just before that,

1094
00:55:31,336 --> 00:55:33,517
he did a series of startups that failed.

1095
00:55:33,517 --> 00:55:37,319
And he was feeling really down at himself
when he started the more recent

1096
00:55:37,319 --> 00:55:41,101
one that led to the successive AI
companies that did well.

1097
00:55:41,101 --> 00:55:44,363
~ so he d he grappled with that.

1098
00:55:44,363 --> 00:55:49,486
The thing I most love though is watching
him as a dad with his three and

1099
00:55:49,486 --> 00:55:50,486
a half year old.

1100
00:55:50,486 --> 00:55:53,159
Right. So I have a three and a half year
old granddaughter.

1101
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:59,886
And watching how caring and loving ~ and
patient he is with her,

1102
00:55:59,886 --> 00:56:01,738
I'm proudest of that.

1103
00:56:03,806 --> 00:56:08,107
Do think that serves you when you step
away from it on the person that you're

1104
00:56:08,107 --> 00:56:11,616
becoming? Still at 62, seeing that.

1105
00:56:11,534 --> 00:56:12,534
Well,

1106
00:56:11,794 --> 00:56:15,044
it just evalu like look, if you we all
wonder,

1107
00:56:15,044 --> 00:56:17,747
Am I doing a good job as a dad or a mom or
whatever,

1108
00:56:17,747 --> 00:56:20,838
you know, if you're if you are in the
parenting stage of your life,

1109
00:56:20,838 --> 00:56:22,519
or if even if you've passed it,

1110
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:29,081
did I do a good job? And there are many
things that are deeply like troubling,

1111
00:56:29,081 --> 00:56:31,582
fearful as a parent that you worry about,

1112
00:56:31,582 --> 00:56:34,093
right? But when you can step back and you
can go,

1113
00:56:34,093 --> 00:56:38,325
you know what, I must have done okay
because look at how that's going over
there.

1114
00:56:38,325 --> 00:56:39,916
And look at the way they're doing now,

1115
00:56:39,916 --> 00:56:40,916
sometimes they're

1116
00:56:41,102 --> 00:56:44,162
'Cause they're like, Well, I'm gonna do it
better than my mom or dad did and

1117
00:56:44,396 --> 00:56:46,578
Yeah. You guys sucked. It was not good.

1118
00:56:46,578 --> 00:56:48,349
Let me show you what would have been
beneficial.

1119
00:56:48,349 --> 00:56:50,166
All right.

1120
00:56:48,943 --> 00:56:49,943
Yeah.

1121
00:56:50,166 --> 00:56:52,923
So hey, yeah. So ~ just a couple more
things.

1122
00:56:52,923 --> 00:56:56,196
Get back into questions around the book
and what you've done and even

1123
00:56:56,196 --> 00:56:59,749
in your your roles now. So we can wrap it
up and you can go surfing and

1124
00:56:59,749 --> 00:57:02,401
we can get back to overworking as you
would call it.

1125
00:57:02,401 --> 00:57:06,935
So ~ because my 47 year old self hasn't
learned the sixty two-roll lessons yet.

1126
00:57:06,935 --> 00:57:12,450
I'm trying. All right. So you've you've
said that you can read a company.

1127
00:57:12,706 --> 00:57:17,952
by its CEO's calendar. That the calendar
is the real org chart.

1128
00:57:17,952 --> 00:57:19,314
Walk us through that.

1129
00:57:19,668 --> 00:57:23,899
If the CEO is working sixty plus hours a
week,

1130
00:57:23,899 --> 00:57:27,629
~ and every minute of the day is filled
with everything and they have

1131
00:57:27,629 --> 00:57:29,891
no time to talk about anything and
whatever,

1132
00:57:29,891 --> 00:57:33,422
it's really, really common, then I know
there's problems in the company.

1133
00:57:33,422 --> 00:57:36,603
The strategy's unclear, their team is a
mess,

1134
00:57:36,603 --> 00:57:41,374
there's no cohesion, ~ there's turnover,

1135
00:57:41,374 --> 00:57:45,746
right? If if I see a lot of a lot of long
hours,

1136
00:57:45,746 --> 00:57:46,746
I know it's gonna be a problem.

1137
00:57:48,876 --> 00:57:50,696
Makes me feel good about my three days.

1138
00:57:50,696 --> 00:57:54,268
I toot my own hort or my three days in
Arizona recently.

1139
00:57:54,268 --> 00:57:57,500
My my tech team here and production team,

1140
00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:59,621
how many times do you hear from me over
the past two and a half,

1141
00:57:59,621 --> 00:58:01,081
three days? I didn't even text you at all,

1142
00:58:01,081 --> 00:58:04,563
did I? He texted me twice. Jack,

1143
00:58:04,563 --> 00:58:05,773
did you reach out to me at all?

1144
00:58:05,773 --> 00:58:07,674
Did we talk? You reached out to me once.

1145
00:58:07,674 --> 00:58:09,145
I'm feeling good about myself here.

1146
00:58:09,145 --> 00:58:11,476
Uh-huh. ~ you're like, Yeah, man,

1147
00:58:11,476 --> 00:58:13,877
okay, let me see the truth. ~ all right.

1148
00:58:13,877 --> 00:58:16,298
So also let's let's wrap up maybe with
this one.

1149
00:58:16,298 --> 00:58:17,298
~

1150
00:58:17,452 --> 00:58:21,114
The founder who insists nobody can do it
as well as they can.

1151
00:58:21,114 --> 00:58:23,552
Sometimes they're right.

1152
00:58:24,386 --> 00:58:30,561
No, maybe they're always so if you're
always essential

1153
00:58:30,561 --> 00:58:33,013
and if nobody can ever do it as good as
you,

1154
00:58:33,013 --> 00:58:35,495
then the company will die with you,

1155
00:58:35,495 --> 00:58:38,077
either when you die on the job or when you
retire.

1156
00:58:38,077 --> 00:58:42,841
So if you want to build something bigger
than you,

1157
00:58:42,841 --> 00:58:47,876
you've got to give it away in a way that
it changes and grows beyond you.

1158
00:58:47,876 --> 00:58:51,058
It finds something. You know, I started an
accelerator program here

1159
00:58:51,058 --> 00:58:52,730
in San Francisco. I did a really good job.

1160
00:58:53,176 --> 00:58:56,208
Compared to other accelerator programs
launching in other cities around the
world,

1161
00:58:56,208 --> 00:58:59,631
I did a exceptionally high job in terms of
launching that.

1162
00:58:59,631 --> 00:59:03,394
And then I recruited somebody who took it
over for me two years later.

1163
00:59:03,394 --> 00:59:08,377
And he did new things that elevated it and
took it to a new level.

1164
00:59:08,377 --> 00:59:10,999
Right. And I I still am friends with him.

1165
00:59:10,999 --> 00:59:15,272
I work with him to this day. but he took
it beyond.

1166
00:59:15,272 --> 00:59:17,804
He took it in in new places to new levels.

1167
00:59:17,804 --> 00:59:19,896
And I that's really critical.

1168
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:23,714
that you not be the one who just hangs on
to things forever.

1169
00:59:23,714 --> 00:59:26,307
And maybe you're better at doing things.

1170
00:59:26,307 --> 00:59:28,599
And maybe a lot of it you should hang on
to.

1171
00:59:28,599 --> 00:59:32,304
But if you do that forever, you become
like Thomas was in my book,

1172
00:59:32,304 --> 00:59:37,990
where you can't sell your company and you
can't retire at 70 ~ because you're

1173
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:41,544
the one who does it best and nobody else
can do it and or is willing to do it.

1174
00:59:43,384 --> 00:59:45,005
Bill Gallagher, give us the one place,

1175
00:59:45,005 --> 00:59:46,536
because we know busy's broken.

1176
00:59:46,536 --> 00:59:51,059
Do less, scale more. ~ it'll be out three
weeks by the time this comes out.

1177
00:59:51,059 --> 00:59:55,492
He's gonna say, take your hard earned
money and give him thirty bucks,

1178
00:59:55,492 --> 00:59:56,883
even though it's worth two ninety-nine.

1179
00:59:56,883 --> 01:00:00,885
I'm joking. But ~ give give give us give
us the place,

1180
01:00:00,885 --> 01:00:01,885
the final the

1181
01:00:01,726 --> 01:00:03,597
Go anywhere, anywhere you buy books.

1182
01:00:03,597 --> 01:00:06,057
You buy them on Amazon. Most people buy
them on Amazon.

1183
01:00:06,057 --> 01:00:07,838
But if you like an independent bookseller
or whatever,

1184
01:00:07,838 --> 01:00:09,929
go there. Buy the book, listen to it,

1185
01:00:09,929 --> 01:00:13,710
read it, Kindle, ebook, ~ Apple Books,

1186
01:00:13,710 --> 01:00:16,391
Barnes Noble, wherever you, hardcover,

1187
01:00:16,391 --> 01:00:19,132
paperback, it's in all forms, everywhere
you buy books.

1188
01:00:19,132 --> 01:00:22,032
So just go get a copy and spend some time,

1189
01:00:22,032 --> 01:00:24,513
read the stories, think about what it
means to you,

1190
01:00:24,513 --> 01:00:26,534
~ and try the diagnostic.

1191
01:00:26,786 --> 01:00:28,528
You go to busy is broken dot com,

1192
01:00:28,528 --> 01:00:31,991
the our website, and and then do the
diagnostic there.

1193
01:00:31,991 --> 01:00:34,193
And we're starting that program,

1194
01:00:34,193 --> 01:00:36,235
The Unbusy. We meet every month.

1195
01:00:36,235 --> 01:00:41,099
And ~ the the group is just filling now as
we launch the book.

1196
01:00:41,099 --> 01:00:45,704
So we'll meet every month and work on your
Italy and getting you there

1197
01:00:45,824 --> 01:00:49,197
and the transformation of your leadership
in your company so that you

1198
01:00:49,197 --> 01:00:52,530
can get away to where whatever is your
equivalent of of my Italy.

1199
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:54,806
All right. Bill Gallagher, thank you,

1200
01:00:54,806 --> 01:00:56,352
man. Thanks for coming on and giving us an
hour.

1201
01:00:56,568 --> 01:00:57,568
Thank you.