#212 - How Kay Woo is Challenging Uber with Zero Commission Ride-Sharing and Blockchain

0:00 Okay, you all listen. Hey, welcome to the party that we just hit play on the podcast before we're even ready. I have a guest on and I'm like, how do I say your name? It's literally K A Y, and he's got the best last name ever. If I can't pronounce woo, I have serious issues. we'll we'll get into the intro later. But what we were just talking about is we were just talking about wearing the same not the same exact shirt, but another exact version of that shirt. So you actually wash Why do you wear that shirt? Every day. Wow. Well, this is actually a very good question. But one thing for sure is as an entrepreneur, every single day you have a lot of things to make a decision, right? So you need to think through all many different problems.

0:43 But ~ you don't want to start your day to think about what to wear, right? So that's why I just bought like twenty of these black t shirts and then, you know, stack on all my closet and then I just pick it and I just wear. And then that's how I start my day. Do you think the black when you put the color black on when you pick that, do you identify with it? Like what about the color? Does it matter? Was it intentional? What about it? 'Cause I do the same thing. ~ Well so well black is easy. So sometimes you know you you need to do overwork, right? Like late late night, like one AM, three AM. Sometimes you need to stay up all night, right? But if you wear black, maybe you can wear it one more time next day. So black is next always convenient, you know?

1:26 They won't they won't be able to tell if it is another shirt, but they might be able to smell it. You all welcome to the podcast today. ~ Tell us about this ~ these late nights as being an entrepreneur. You know, ~ I think society has worked through the idea that being an entrepreneur is sexy and cool. I think we have now finally all accepted it's really hard.

2:09 No? It's really, really hard. It's not sexy at all. Like what people see on the screen or nudes, that's a success story, right? Like there are like tons of tons of entrepreneurs on the on the New York and you know, your hometown and wherever. They're like living their lives really hard. Like, look at me, like at this black t shirts. Like, I'm wearing this every day. And then, like, This launch, I skipped the launch, and then this morning I just ate the bagel. And, you know, you're like survival more. Like you need to survive to change something. And then maybe after you change something, people start recognizing you. Then people see you as a successful, you know, entrepreneur. But that's just the one finite, you know, view that people may have.

3:03 But what we are doing is actually infinite game. There's no ending in this. Hmm. what makes it so hard? Because see, these words aren't universal words. Yeah. Right? Because your hard that comes from Kay's dictionary might be a way different dictionary that somebody that that hasn't lived the hard. Sure. Yeah. I mean so it is it's it's ~ it's very hard to articulate what exactly it is, but again, like ~ every single ~ problems ~ you try to solve ~ every single minute and you invest your time and resources and one problem you solve, but immediately or maybe consecutively, like the next problems comes to you.

3:53 And then like Again, like when I first started my company, I thought, ~ well, so maybe a couple of years, ~ if I built this product and then if I can sell this product, then probably I'll I'll I should be able to purchase maybe Lamborghini or you know, I should become a millionaire. But the the point is it is not actually. Every single day you're actually struggling and to survive and even after Let's say ~ you went through those kind of death valley, and then you still every single day you need to make a decision to survive long enough. And if you don't survive long enough, then there's no chance that you can see the result, right? So hard means to me, ~ it's like realizing the ~ the infinite game of this entrepreneurship.

4:45 It's like never ending. The only way that I can Yeah. Go to other way. Yeah. The only way that I can finish this is just giving up. I was like one day I was like, Mark, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. Then that's the time that I can finish my this ~ infinite game. But until then, this game is going to be never ending. Yeah. And don't you have to accept and believe that you're never gonna give up to keep going. Yes, that's true. ~ maybe like until the end of my life I wouldn't give up. So I have my own mission. So like actually to be honest with you, ~ at the beginning stage of my startup life, I was like, I built the product to become rich.

5:32 So the money was the only reason for me. But you know what? The my first try, first product, second product and third product, all product actually I wanted to become a millionaire. But you know I failed. All product and then project all failed. I failed to sol product and then I failed to convince people to use a my product. And then like all of a sudden, like I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Like I'm building the product to change something. I'm building the product to, you know, help somebody. Doesn't it ~ have to be my ~ what's my call my mission and my goal? And then I was like changing my view, like rather than ~ chasing money to become a millionaire.

6:16 I was like, okay, maybe let's focusing on the ~ first principle, the core problem that I can solve for the people. Then that ~ changing of my perspective and the view of my entrepreneurship happened on back in 2018. So like rather than focusing on money, I was like, okay, let's focusing on the solving the problem of drivers. That that's how I became like this old. Like I didn't have this much of white gray hair on a mustache. Like I I can't believe that look look at me like I like looks like I'm like sixty. You look younger than me, hey, since we're talking about your company, let me give you an intro. We give everybody an intro, and then it'll be the launch of of the company here. So today's guest is Kay Wu. It he's the founder and CEO of Tata and Through.

7:02 It's T-A-D-A, and Through is T-H-R-O-O. ~ Kay has built businesses across mobility, payments, and tech. But what makes his story especially interesting is that he chose to enter markets dominated by massive competitors. And compete with a completely different philosophy, which I'm pumped to dig in with today. So as the founder of Tata, he challenged traditional ride sharing economics with a zero commission model designed to give drivers a larger share of what they earn. Along the way he's navigated startup failures, which we just talked about a little bit, international expansion, emerging technologies, and the challenge of building trust in industries where trust is often in short supply. So officially Kay, welcome.

7:45 To the necessary entrepreneur. Thanks for having me today. Yeah, man. ~ so what problem are you trying to solve right now with ride sharing? I touched on a zero commission model, giving more back to drivers. What problem did you identify that said, let me solve this? And then since you started there, how's that problem evolved and what's that solving look like? Okay, so I mean let me define the problem in a very simple manner. so as you know, like probably you've been using Uber or other Bitcoin platform services, and then when you pay ~ let's say $100, and then in the old end, like driver only take fifty dollar.

8:26 It doesn't make really sense. And then this problem actually actually became worse these days. But back in 2018, like 2017 and 18, Drivers still struggling. Like, you know, they're paying like 35% of commission to the giant platforms. And then whenever I had a meeting with those kind of vendors and the drivers and the partners, their immediate question to me was, so how much would you take from us? It's like this is actually a really, really threatening question for me as an entrepreneur. I'm here to support them, but immediately they're looking at me as a like, What's McCall? ~ some kind of Yeah, 'cause when yeah, 'cause when they said, What are you going to take from us?

9:10 Yeah. And it's like, Yeah, that's the wrong com that's the wrong conversation. And I'll hand it back. Shouldn't it be let me figure out a way to help you make more Exact and then through that, let me make some profit too. Right. So but the point is actually I told them, okay, so I'm a good guy, so I'm gonna charge you lesser commission. Right? But lesser commission? So what is what do you mean by r lesser commission? And the less commission is like, okay, so they charge, let's say thirty five percent, but we'll go with ~ ten or fifteen percent. They're like, Well, but you don't have any demand, you don't have any user base. Then even if you charge lesser commission, then how can you, you know help us to make more money. So that's actually very fair, you know, counter ~ answer for me.

9:56 I was like, okay, so yeah, Lesser Commission, I thought Lesser Commission is good enough for them, but the point is they literally want to change the how they ~ interact with the platform. But there's no solutions back then. And then I was like I was asking around to my friends and people and almost all everybody is like, they're just following the the traditional way of doing the business, like platform like a high commission, or even at the beginning stage, even if you charge high commission, you give a high bonus. So that make people feeling that they're making a lot of money. But in the old end, like they need to actually take the money back and also pay back to their investors. So those kind of equations is actually been used for over let's say several decades, I guess. Then the my my next question to them and to myself as well was like then what should I what should I do?

10:52 Like if I follow the traditional way of doing this commission based platform business, there's no chance for me to fight against the big giant, right? They already set their rules and their pocket is like too deep, like billions of dollars on their pocket. Like whenever they want, they can just squeeze me, like squish me like any time, right? If I fight back to them like with let's say Alright, so everybody sign up with our service. I'll give you guys this a fifty percent discount on the first you're right. And then you know what? Like those big giant platform, they can just simply do it like immediately. So it's not sustainable at all. And also those investors and then VCs, they're very skeptical of mobility services.

11:38 And then I was actually like one Asian guy, like try to do the ~ right heading service and random places and then how could they trust me? And then if back then even 2017 and 18, like those big giant platforms, they couldn't even make a profit. Their loss is like was like billions of dollars. And then there's no point for those investors looking like our review our port ~ our service and then investing into us. That's like I was like, okay. So then we were kinda in stuck in between. So we cannot even convince those, you know Drivers and the users, but also at the same time, we couldn't convince the investors as well. So it's like none of those ~ side is like try to be with us.

12:22 I was like, then my next question is like, looks like we are gonna die anyway. So Thank you. let's think our side of the box. If we keep on following the rule that's set by the big giant platform, there's no chance for us to win. So I was like, I was discussing with my co-founder, my CTO, and then why don't we ~ set up like new types of platform that nobody ever done before? Which we could build some kind of you know platform that can give back the whole value that we're creating together as a as a as a whole, you know, network. So then if we can manage to ~ to build and deliver that.

13:11 then we should be able to have ~ certain market poor market share like meaningfully. So that was the initial idea that we started and back in 2018. And then ride handling itself is ~ less commission is not attractive at all. If you want to convince the market and the participants and the drivers and the users, you gotta go extreme. Either you have a deep pocket and spending a lot of money to fight back for those high commission models, Or you should go as a completely in a zero. Yep. So So don't here you so here you are. So that's the problem, right? What most people quit at that moment because it f it felt helpless, right? You're like, how in the world?

13:54 So if you were just chasing money still, like in the earlier ones, you quit at that moment. Right. So what kept you going? Why did you keep going then? ~ Wow, this is actually a very, very deep question. ~ I just ~ okay. ~ well this is very difficult question also. You just touched my like very deep, deep, deep ~ inside of my ~ pain that I had before. So When I was in high school, I always wanted to build the a product or business that helping people. But also at the same time I was I was greedy.

14:35 I wanna ~ I want to become a like rich person. And as a country boy, like I'm I'm born in Korea and my hometown is actually also like two hours drive from the Seoul, like capital city. And like as a small country boy, like you always dream big, like you wanna do something new, but I couldn't ~ you know, have a chance. But I got lucky to get into a good university in Seoul and then I get to see many people and then I see the opportunity that I can do something. But again I I couldn't do it. And after that, like I started my company, ~ luckily here in New York, back in 2012. But I got ~ got married ~ around that time as well.

15:19 So I have my my son on my side and then Like my family is actually really supporting me and my dream and my wife was like she's like, Okay, you should ~ you should keep on pursuing your dream. And she's the one who's actually ~ keep on helping me. Even if I couldn't make any money like over three or four years, she was like, Do it, chase your dream. I support you. So she was the one who's actually sacrificing for me and then I was the one who's chasing the dream, right? But if I give up my dream because of s I don't know, here and there small problems. And then if I give up my dream so easily, then those three or four, five years of sacrifice of my family is like it became nothing, right? So I was like, there's no chance for me to give things up.

16:12 And then that also gave me an energy to find a way to survive. But again, like with this whole thinking process that helped me to set up my ~ like philosophy again. Like rather than focusing on making money or being rich, like really, really solving the problem for people. So that's how I ~ ended up like now talking to you here. And not quitting. So what happen what happened when you we got to the intersection where you had to make a decision? Like we can't compete doing what they're doing. So we have to change and do something. So what happened at that decision moment and that brings us here to where we are today?

16:55 ~ this is actually really good questions and also I want to share this to all other entrepreneurs as well. ~ If ~ we keep on following those kind of ~ circumvent or existing players you know, way of business model, there's no chance for us to ~ flip the market share or win the game because they're the one who's actually who set the rule already. Like how to acquire the drivers, how to acquire the customers, how to make people the user service, how to maximize your profit from the let's say users users ~ you know. you know, user base user data and then all those kind of rules and you know, mechanisms is like there's no way that you can break because those big giant platforms and and big companies actually they've been building that service and platforms and technologies over ten years.

17:49 And then I just start a service. Now how can you compete against them with the same ~ you know, playbook? So if you want to actually change the whole game or if you want to bring the impact into the market, you gotta have a different playbook. Otherwise, again, like with just one click, they can just simply squeeze you like right away. Mm hmm. So what's your playbook? Did you realize then you had to design and write a new playbook, or did you start thinking like maybe it should be different? Was there this big moment that you stopped playing by the same game here and the next day you re that it happened? Yeah.

18:30 So like so the on a decision day, all right, guys, let's do this right. So we're not gonna follow the existing platform playbook like with a high commission, like twenty percent, thirty percent. We are not gonna do that. Again, like let's let's think outside of the box. So rather than charging them, let's give all benefit to the participants, starting from the drivers. So Normal right-handing platforms, actually, those big giant platforms, ~ typically they define their customers, riders as their customer. Drivers are not their customer.

19:10 Drivers are actually just one of the ~ disposable units for them. So they just simply deactivate driver's account. Like if there is any false activation or a small mistake, they just simply press the button and deactivate the account. That's the the the also very, very known issue like these days. ~ but rather than ~ defining ~ those riders as a customer, we define drivers as a customer. So we're building the software stack that helps drivers to earn 100% of their income. And then by doing so, drivers actually can provide a better service to the users, which is riders. So driver as a b becoming our ~ first ~ primary customer and the rider become our secondary customers.

19:53 That's how we set up this triangle relationship. So after setting this up, then we go even more extreme. Not just the defining ~ the customer in a different way, but also we're giving a hundred percent of benefit to drivers. That's how we start with the zero percent commission. But let me give you one ~ explanation of how we became like zero percent commission right hailing service. So zero percent commission cannot be ~ given just with one simple decision. It's a common sense. If you don't add any if you don't if you cannot make any money from, let's say, your business, this business is not going to sustain long enough.

20:35 Then how can you survive? Like zero percent commission. Many of ~ my friends and investors and you know, those industry people like asking me a question like zero percent commission, how can you survive? So what I told them is actually we built the ~ infrastructure network of drivers. So when we are building this infrastructure network, we are actually building this on top of the blockchain. So blockchain infrastructure are helping us to create the mobility protocol. And with this protocol, we can actually ~ record all these drivers' contribution. And then by doing so, we can give them a more benefit, like 100% of their income. And then while they're participating into this network, actually the value of network is actually growing together.

21:21 So We introduce this blockchain protocol with our crypto asset as well. And then this asset actually grows together with the network growth. So that's the one way that we can actually capture the whole network value into ~ our ~ protocol. Then this ~ right-heading service of Tada and through 0% Commission, this is the channel that we are actually attracting all these drivers into our infrastructure network. So by making this way, we can actually build the largest driver network without spending too much money. So past three months here in New York, I visited ~ LaGuardia Airport parking lot and JFK Airport parking lot and talked to the drivers. And over this three month of period, we've acquired over fifty thousand drivers.

22:11 Drivers actually keep on joining us. And then they're like, We need the competition. We need the new app. And then Jira Sand Commission sounds good, but And also we need to bring more writers for them, but this is really working. So that's that's how we we built the whole system. So JeroPos and Commission didn't come ~ by itself. It actually comes together with the blockchain infrastructure underneath of it. And then these two combined together, we're building actually one largest driver network. That's awesome. So as a consumer, is it as simple as would we feel something different? There's a there's a bunch of ride sharing companies now, but the two big ones, would we f if we have the Tata app, right? So we have the app and is there a different experience or is it something that we can be familiar with to the consumer to the user base?

23:02 It feels like, this is good, and I like participating in it because more money's going back to the driver. What's the what's the call to action for the consumer? So ~ again, like user experience in terms of application usage is exactly the same. You just call the call and then you get matched, and then you you you go from A to B and then you pay the service fee. ~ drivers, on the other hand, like no commission here, driver actually take a hundred percent of their income here. So that's the big difference. And then ~ with this process actually users also can save their cost though. So now like I I gave an example. There's one case that here for example here in New York, one driver actually telling me told me the story that ~ his customer actually from New York to like a one hour and a half ride outside of New York State and then he received a hundred fifty dollar, but customer paid three hundred fifty dollars.

23:59 So this is actually like real problem here in New York and not just only New York, maybe ~ whole US market here. ~ but driver side, for example, ~ we can uplift their income. For example, in this case, we can actually charge lesser, let's say not three hundred fifty, maybe two hundred fifty. Yeah. And then we give driver like over two hundred and two to thirty. We just we need to pay to a certain amount of tax. So after deducting the tax, we can give actually we can make everybody happy. So that's the mechanism. D can is the driver in control of that price at all, or are you in control of that? So we set the pricing table. ~ drivers don't set the price he on our system.

24:43 So we calculate the ~ the routing and the minutes and then we set the price and then with this pricing table we don't take any commission. So how many cities? So if I fly to Miami, is it in Miami? Is it in New York? Is it in Boston? Where are we at? Are we just New York City? Where are we at? So now we're in New York, but also Denver. We are actually servicing together with the Cooperative Colorado. This is actually a new experiment actually we did here in US for the first time. So we're not going with our service brand. We are actually giving them support of our software and then let them run their s our system and then those drivers group in Colorado, they can actually run the service and and the service is growing every single day.

25:30 That's awesome. How many is this in South Korea as well? I bet you activated in Seoul. Not yet. ~ so actually I'm a Korean. ~ happen to be I'm the founder of Korean but Singaporean companies. Our headquarters in Singapore. So we're servicing in Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, ~ where else? ~ Thailand, Hong Kong. Wow. Okay. Awesome. So what do you think this becomes? So you're trying to get to a tipping point, right? Where It just is adopted. Everyone knows about it. When do you think that happens? Like you have these goals on the when when does it become adoptable and consumers are downloading app and knowing because to a consumer, if it's the same service, but it's like maybe I save twenty percent, you know that's a big draw for a consumer spending.

26:19 It is. Right. ~ so again, like our playbook is actually different from those big giant platforms. When they go into the new market, what they do is actually they burn billions of dollars, right? To make everybody know about your service. But we don't do that. What we do, we build the ours ~ use let's say driver base first and then let drivers become the marketer. Because Because they're the one who's actually ~ running their own business on top of our software. So they're the one who's talking to their friends and families. If they're making more money using your service, they would want everybody they know to log in and grab from that. Exactly. Okay. Yeah.

27:00 So like you mentioned that ~ twenty percent are cheaper, for example, then Rider. They what they need to do is actually they need to try our service one or two times. And that's it. So we don't even need to keep on giving coupons and promotions to the users. They can just simply download the app and try one or two times. To to initiate such activity we need to spend certain amount of marketing budget, but it's not ridiculous amount of marketing budget. I'll you may be surprised at how much money that we are spending for the marketing. It's very marginal. Very small. So what do you do? Let's talk about the metaphorical elephant in the room.

27:40 So I was in Atl I was in Atlanta Okay. and I ordered a ride from one of your competitors. Yeah, okay, a big giant, yeah. And a driverless car showed up known as a Waymo. And it's the first time I'd ridden in one. And my brain first went, Wait a minute. But I said, Okay, let's go, I'm adventurous. Okay. Yeah. After it, for the next three days, I was there for a conference. After that, inside that app, there was something I could check that I choose a Waymo more frequent if it's available versus a human driver because Mm-hmm. It became very comfortable.

28:21 So what does K running Tada, what do you do in this new world of this driverless thing coming online? Does that concern you as an entrepreneur? Where's your brain at? I don't concern at all. Actually, I I think this is actually inevitable future. It's gonna happen anyway. You can't stop this. So it's gonna happen anyway. And then look at yourself. Like you prefer that quiet, like driverless car. Like you want your own privacy, right? So it's gonna happen anyway. But my next question to you and then to other people as well who's gonna own this vehicle? Who's gonna maintain this vehicle?

29:03 Like, is there anybody who thought about the ~ unit economics of this AV? As of now, ~ per AV we need actually ~ two point five people to maintain one vehicle. Right hailing vehicle is just only one driver that you you as an owner you maintain your own vehicle, right? But AV unit economics is not there, but unit economics of AV is going to be become like a one person can maintain a whole vehicle. It's gonna happen anyway. But again, they'll go back to the question, who's gonna own the vehicle? My my my answer for that is drivers.

29:45 Hmm. By helping drivers to own A V, then we can actually reduce the ~ operational cost. We can reduce the maintenance cost at all. So you you as a driver, for example, you purchase one A V, which for example, let's say there's Tesla Nova Taxi, the price wise is like less than twenty thousand dollars, right? Yeah. You can own this robot, right? You can just buy one and then you can let it You can let this vehicle work for you during the day. And then after finishing finish working, then it can come back to your home. And then you clean the car and you charge the car.

30:26 Whenever you need, you can use it. So ownership of this vehicle, A V, I believe that this should be distributed to the drivers and individuals. And then eventually this will ~ you know, demolish the wall between the drivers and the users. And then eventually All users gonna be the owner of AV. So that's the future that I'm looking into. And also this kind of vehicle ownership ~ program or ~ tokenized ~ asset program that we are actually experimenting in ~ Southeast Asia Asia and Japan. So we are actually tokenizing the vehicle ownership or vehicle cash flows ownership and piecewise it and selling that to the investors in Japan.

31:10 So for example, let's say drivers in Cambodia, they need a vehicle, but they don't have any credit history. But we know how much money that they're making through our platform. So we help them to get a vehicle and then we rent this vehicle to the drivers and then this cash flow, we are actually selling this cash flow as a tokenized product to Japanese investors. APY is like eighteen percent. huge. Yeah. That's huge. So good. So what do you think that you being the entrepreneur that you are, ~ you're never gonna quit. Your family made all those sacrifices to prop you up. Because even if you sold one that become that became economically just outrageous in the value, you sold it, someone came and offered you a check that's just astronomical, you're gonna do it again.

32:00 Is I think so. Maybe not. Would you do it again? Are you in a place in your life where you wouldn't become an entrepreneur again? Well, ~ you know, you probably you've you've heard about this like from many other entrepreneurs. It's like is that building the company and then being an entrepreneur is kinda like a drug. You cannot quit. So once you do it, you you're gonna keep doing it. So I would say ~ yeah, I would say I would do it again. But it caused your gray hair. I know. So maybe like I can be more efficient if I do the second time. Makes sense. What do you think where where the economy has with tech?

32:42 We just talked about Waymo's, driverless cars, AVs, right? That really personally touches your space and your entrepreneurial adventure. It's right there. Most of us, most of us are we're finding ways to utilize it and integrate it into business. But what does the forward thinking K what do you spend much time thinking about 2036? Because you just thought ahead to say Who owns the car? I hadn't thought about that yet. Right. You're th but but you're thinking ahead because it affects your business. Are you thinking ahead in 2036 about the world that us entrepreneurs are going to live in? Have you thought about that? too, but like not the broad scale.

33:25 But I do think about like in two thousand thirty, two thousand thirty six, then like how is the ~ the transportation industry gonna be at? And then especially here in US market, ~ with the Waimo and then Tesla, it's going to be completely different landscape by that time. But the core question is ~ always like I my belief is ~ The technology development should give a benefit to the people, not just one or two, you know, biggest capital owners. So my answer for that, like AV, who's gonna own the AV?

34:06 I would rather ~ have the future that ~ those kind of ownership distributed to the individuals so that they can be the part of this ~ you know trajectory. And then We don't have to worry about them to being left behind. So they can be the part of this actually whole growth and the social development. So that's That's how you see it. So you think your platform, you're already thinking ahead. You're thinking because you're you're already connecting some investors in Japan that want to actually buy the normal car. You're thinking in the future your platform will still be something how it's evolving. You'll have the investor who will buy the A V, then will lease it or rent it to the user, the person who operates at they wash it at night, they maintain it. You think that your service can be the platform that all of that can work through.

34:57 That's right. Yeah. So that's actually what we are currently doing. So in Singapore, for example, in Singapore there is a small island attached called the Sentosa Island. This Santosa Island, we're gonna run this two autonomous you know, shuttle, I would say, ~ on-demand shuttle for six people can fit in. So there are two vehicles we're gonna run, but per vehicle is like f very expensive, like a million dollars. So but this vehicle, we want to distribute the ownership of this vehicle. To our drivers in Singapore and also allow investors to join the ownership of this vehicle. By setting this way, then we can actually distribute this future cash flow or benefit to those participants and the people.

35:41 So we're expand we we are actually running it and experimenting it. And then if this works well, then we're gonna go at scale. Hm. At scale that means in Asia, possibly here in the US. Does that same model work here? I think so. ~ but we we need to actually comply the rules of those kind of tokenization, asset tokenization. But if we go with this ~ you know, lease and rental and cash flow tokenization, that's a little bit easier than asset tokenization. But here in New York, I ever since I started the business here, ~ running the service and then many drivers and the industry stakeholders they're asking questions about, you know, how we can actually you know, tokenize those assets.

36:27 Even those big giant ~ in insurance companies actually they're they want to package something together with us. So it's this is not just the ~ like simple demo. This is like a real world business being connected to this ~ new world and new level of technology of blockchain. Hmm. So the tokenization are these tokens that you create that are just out on the blockchain that everybody has a percentage ownership in? What's that look like? So ~ so those drivers and then users and they can also earn based on the their contribution. That's the that was the initial design back in 2018. But nowadays we are changing we are actually going to introduce a new concept next week. ~ this new concept comes with the ~ agent teching as well.

37:14 So but I cannot give you the detail as of yet because we're gonna send out the PL next week. But this whole ~ users actually ~ as a ~ let me put it this way. ~ as an investor, you hold the equity of the company, right? So then as a as an equity equity holder, you get to ~ see the information of the company and then you get the dividend. And then you can also participate there's some decision, certain level of decision of the company. But as a token holder on for for the network, and then you can participate the decisions. you can also ~ enjoy the benefit of let's say the value growth of whole network by holding this token. That that's the concept that we are introducing and then we've been running for past fourteen years, yeah.

38:06 Mm. So good. So fourteen years. Yeah. That's a long time. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Look at me, like my three hairs. You've taken most of it off. I know. So so again, like this the reason why also why I shaved my actually I had a long hair used to be, but I was like, okay. I don't want to waste my time to set my head. So I was like, okay, fine, I just shaved it. Let it go. ~ so you mentioned, I think, a son earlier. It means he's a teenager now. Right. Right, he is, yeah. So what is his experience in this new world of tech versus how we grew up? Like how tell when you look at him, how's he living? What's he experiencing?

38:52 What's he what's this tech world doing for him in these next generations? It's like ~ these teenagers and ~ they're so natural to use the tools and you know technologies. It's like right-heading service and application use is like so natural. It's just simple and that they just use it. And then, you know, the Chat GPT and Cloud and this old AI tool, it's literally changing how they do the study, how they find the answers, how they solve the problems. So that became a like new normal. Like Don't you remember like back in like let's say twenty, thirty years ago? We were like, what's my call? Not twenty, let's say thirty years ago, for example, there was no smartphone, right? We use a pager or land light phone, right? But all of a sudden, iPhone introduced on two thousand ~ seven and eight, and that changed the whole, you know, perspective of how to use the internet and then you know services.

39:54 Th those kind of moments already happen ~ when ChatG the open AI introduced ChatGPT and the Mart Teenager is actually adapted, like without having any problem. So that's the situation, like Do you think this will be an app based world 'cause that's what we've been in? Or do you think we're gonna be off we're gonna be off app, aren't we? Yeah. So again, like next week we're gonna introduce the new way of ride hailing. Which means you're not gonna need your application at all. So what I see, what I'm expecting, especially here in New York, San Francisco and then those metropolitan cities here in the United States, ~ in five years I would say people wouldn't use an application. You don't need application.

40:41 You just need to have a small agent. on your phone or on your computer, maybe on your body. You never know. But again, you won't use a application. How do you see what would be as simple as ~ maybe I'm wearing glasses, maybe it's something embedded in my brain that Elon's worst? Yeah. Yeah. In our I can't comprehend just thinking of it and it happening. How however it'll will it be as simple as, Hey, can you get me the best value ride share that can take me from where I'm at now to this address? Right. So this is actually very passive way of using your agent. You're actually asking to your agent, How can I go from A to B? Right?

41:26 But your agent, you should not ask your agent. Your agent should tell you, Hey Mark, you have a meeting with K four fifteen in Manhattan Times Square. And now you're at the office on in downtown. I think you gotta you gotta get a cat right now. You gotta get a car. Do you omit a call? And then what you need to do is just simply say yes, and then your car is on your doorstep. And then you go for the meeting. That's it. What's that world gonna look like from a business owner from marketing and branding being the one that that system selects? So this is actually a very, very ~ important question.

42:09 ~ by the time that people wouldn't carry ~ application, branding and marketing is not gonna not gonna need it, I think. What kind of business can survive with these kind of changes? You gotta have an infrastructure that AEI cannot replace. On our case, We have largest driver network. This largest driver network cannot be replaced. Even after A V became a new normal in this industry, ~ it's gonna take some time, like five years, then ten years, to change all vehicles. We have billions and billions of vehicles around the world.

42:51 You cannot replace every vehicle to A V as of yet. So while we are progressing into that direction, ~ it's it's gonna happen that way. And then Marketing and branding, your application name, it doesn't really matter. Like your skill, your agent, you need to actually build the right message or right hook for the agent to find you your service well. It's like different level of marketing on different level of let's say connecting. How are we gonna get to know how is my agent gonna get to know that agent that then makes the decision that that's the ride share or the card that shows up to get me?

43:37 So again, like here's the thing. ~ you your agent knows your preference. You prefer, let's say, even if it's expensive, I I prefer the privacy. I wanna A V. Then your agent will call way more. Right? And my agent in on the other hand, I don't care those kind of things. I need to save money. So give me a cheapest, but with the decent quality. Like now, like we're sharing the driver pool together with the big giants, right? So then our service is cheaper, but quality is the same. Then my agent is like looking for those options and then give me the option of our service through and ta da, and then I can just use that service.

44:23 So again, our question ~ is is more like our view ~ and our question is actually based on our knowledge and experience. what your question is actually we are actually asking to the question and then to agent and then can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? That's actually like very outdated question. Mm. Like our teenagers and then they are going to use this Asian in a different way. They wouldn't even ask a question. Their Asian will ask question to them and then it's going to be proactive Asian. That's gonna happen for sure.

45:05 Hm. If it's not working off of a calendar that you have input, is it do you think it's just gonna know you? It's gonna know your habits. It's gonna know you based on the location that you are. It's just gonna know. Yeah, it's it's it's gonna know it. So even even now, even now, our service and those big giant service users and and they do have a data, they know your pattern. Even now, right? That's what AI is. That's what AI started decades ago, that's what AI was. Yeah, exactly. Machine learning. Machine learning is the is the beginning and then now Neuralink, like the high throughput is actually changing the whole experience now right now. So I mean it's gonna it's gonna happen.

45:51 You can't you can't deny this. It's it's ~ but one thing for sure is if you embrace this hundred percent, your life is going to be much easier. So what do you think then I then I'm thinking about a business owner? Then the ones who are gonna win are the ones who are correct on predicting what the future is. And then build right then right and then building a business for it. Right. Yeah. Right? You could do that, yeah. So so No, g go ahead with it. Take that idea. Is that is that the business owner's gonna win? We're gonna have to be good at prediction models to say we think consumer and human behavior is here because What Steve Jobs said when he was building products and Apple products, I remember he was talking to his was it Johnny Ivier?

46:40 Yeah. He said he would go and talk to him and he would say, We're not solving for what humans tell us they want. I'm solving for what they don't know they want yet. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's the that's the the way that you can actually make the ~ like really, really enormous change. But as a as a small potato entrepreneur, I'm trying to solve the core problem, ~ like known problems first. And then while I'm solving this known problem, s then I was actually thinking a hey, like what would happen in five years later. So that's why like I was explaining you that that this Asian hailing Asian thing is going to change the whole experience of people.

47:25 And then I'm telling to my team members that like now we're caring about our brand design and our application design or whatever it is, but five years later it's going to be obsolete. Like no one's gonna use it. Maybe ~ grandpa, grandma are gonna use your application, but those teenagers, they wouldn't. Yeah. What do you think will happen? Me being in the real estate business, talking about entrepreneurship. So do you do you own a home right now, a family home? Do you all own or do you rent? Is that okay? Is that too personal? no it's okay. So but I don't own the S She you rent. If you were gonna buy an apartment, if you were going to Mm-hmm.

48:05 How would you start that process? I I was very simple. So even now I'm gonna ask I have actually six different agents. I do the six different jobs. So I'm gonna do my ~ the chip of step agent. So gonna start like this. Sora, I need I need a house ~ in New York, but I also need to ~ have an a good ac education access, but also I I'm looking for the safe area. Like all those kind of criteria I give to my agent and my agent gonna sort the information out and then give it to me. Right? But as of now, those kind of let's say platforms, they don't share the information.

48:47 Mm-hmm. There's no data that they can actually pull easily. So as of now, this agent ~ usage may not work, but at the certain level that I can get starting information. And then based on this information, as of now, I would ask you, hey Mark, so I got this information and these areas is actually my you know, my candidate area. So can you help to ~ search for or good horse for me? Then that's how I'm going to do right now. But let's say five years later and even more years later, let's say you, Mark, as a industry player, you build this ~ infrastructure database.

49:29 You allow this database to be plugged in by those AI engines. Right? Then these AI engines can do much more job. But you as an infrastructure provider, you don't even need to ~ answer the call. Your engine, your infrastructure gonna do the job for you. Mm-hmm. That's the future thing. You gotta build that up. Yep, so at what point do you think we interact as humans in that? The future, well not right now. In in five or ten years, at what point does the human touch the human? The deal closing. That very, very delicate you know, neance and ~ you know communication that can only be done by human.

50:16 The closing the deal is going to be carried by human for sure. But the whole process can be done by agent and the AI. So good. Through your entrepreneurial journey, we talked about earlier why you weren't gonna quit and the inspiration behind it and the whys and stuff. ~ What do you what's the where does your purpose come from? I know you said you want to give more money back, but this came from if we can't compete with the big companies the way they're doing it, why? We have to do something different. What was the driver for coming up with the idea to give almost all the money back to drivers? Was it just because we need to do that to be different to have a business that succeeds? Or was there something else?

51:03 Well so I would say yes for what you just said, but but that's not the core reason. What I would say ~ is I don't know, it's maybe I'm too sentimental, but okay. That's it. ~ Yeah, okay. So so I I don't know, like but I personally ~ prefer to ~ make people around me To be rich. So now I have, for example, here in New York, I in my pocket, like my friends and drivers, like 50,000 drivers on my pocket. I want them to be rich. So whenever I go to JFK, JFK parking lot, and then I talk to, hey Jimmy, I'm here. Like you made a lot of money last week, so you bought me a sandwich. That's what I'm looking for.

51:58 This is a human relationship. This cannot be replaced by AI. So these kind of relationships that are valued the most. So that to make this relationship is ~ you know abundant, you gotta help them to be rich. Then if you do the job or you if you run the business like typical way, you cannot make them rich sooner. Right? You gotta go extreme. So that's why like I give everything to them. Hm. Do people think you're crazy? They do, yeah. And sometimes ~ actually at the beginning stage of our our opening service of each cities, they see me as a scammer.

52:42 It's very typical. It's the very typical reaction. Jero Person Commission is too good to be true, right? Everybody thinks that like, ~ Jero Person Commission? Hmm. Sounds suspicious. Sounds fissy. And then they're like, they're gonna change their their policy once they gain the, you know, traction. Which we did not. Yeah. Hmm. Who's your this Jimmy? Is that one of your biggest success stories? Is that one of your friends now? Is that a real guy? Or is that somebody made up right now? It's a it's a real guy. Real guy in Singapore. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. He needs to give you testimonials. He needs to document. I'm sure you're doing that with these fifty thousand drivers. You're having them set you're having them say, like, hey, why does this make sense?

53:24 Why have you appreciated this? How has this helped versus right? I mean that that's how you're gonna you have to have these receipts to carry out in the world to say, No, I actually have receipts from what I've done. Yeah. So I do actually ~ I did interview many of drivers here in New York and at JFK parking lot and LaGuardia Airport parking lot. So I interviewed them and then they gave their perspectives and then they appreciate what we are trying to do. But now like we are in the in the in the timing of delivering the real result, like ~ attracting more users and the demand for the drivers. And then ~ While there are some drivers appreciating what we are doing and then also some drivers also complaining as well.

54:05 So that's actually a very normal process. So at the beginning stage, zero percent commission is actually very much promising for them and then drivers are joining the platform. And then after opening the service, we are not buying cash. So demand is not gonna come like, you know, enormously at the beginning. So then drivers actually start having a question and then start complaining. And then somehow People start trying one and two and three and hundred and then it's actually start taking off. And then drivers actually start believing it. And then that we grow even further. So that's how so every market we we do this way. Yeah. Yeah. How many rides are you is this something 'cause it's private.

54:45 Do you talk how many rides have you already had in two thousand twenty six? Do you talk about these numbers? Do you keep that private? Two well, two thousand twenty six, like what, it's like a couple couple tens, hundreds of millions? So quite a lot of trips we did overall, like a whole world. Yeah. So you already you're you're developing the receipts and the proof that hey, this really works. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So the whole model is really working. Yeah. Yeah. So your biggest unlock now is signing up drivers to the platform, correct? Like that's the marketing push. Right. So that's actually relatively easy job. But that next one is actually convincing riders to come to our platform.

55:27 Cause drivers, you know, when you are when you are having a headache, you immediately think that, I need a tyranny, right? So we're actually giving the painkiller to our drivers. Jeroperson Commission is actually a very good, extremely good painkiller for them. But riders, jero person commission for what? What am I getting? Correct. So we need to actually explain them. Because of zero zero percent commission, we can lower the fare like twenty percent. You can save, let's say, ten dollar, twenty dollar for your martini tonight. Then they need to try the service, right? So that needed time.

56:08 Are there drivers who will use and work on multiple platforms? Can they do it? Is it illegal for what the agreements they sign for these other if they drive so they they can they can drive for all the platforms? Of course, of course. We don't force anybody. It's a open platform. If you don't wanna work with us, that's totally fine. If you wanna work for the other platform, that's totally fine. If you wanna work for both, totally fine. It's a free market, yeah. Hm. What do you think the response is going to be from your SWOT analysis? What do you think the response is from the big players? They have all their money. What's their defense mechanism? What what do you think they do and react as you continue to grow?

56:51 ~ what they are gonna do is ~ two things. First immediate thing is they're spending money to slow down our acquisition of demand. So make people believing that their price is relatively cheap or similar like us. So that's the like one of their tactics for sure. And second one ~ is going to be they're gonna play with the pricing. You know, back in we're I'm here in Cincinnati. It's in Ohio, where Ohio and Kentucky come together. Mm-hmm. We had this same thing happen in the nineteen nineties. So we had an it in the airline business.

57:33 Sure. It's proven everybody can go out there. So there was the biggest, the largest regional carrier, regional airline, the entire country was a company called Com Air. I don't know if you know the story. And and so Com Air was out of C BG, and because of that At some point in the nineties, I believe, that the Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky International Airport had more flights than any other airport in the country before Atlanta took yes. So then Delta acquired Calm Air. And then because of that, then they dominated, I think something like 70 or 80% of the flights coming out. And then they acquired Northwest Airlines. And so then Cincinnati stopped becoming a hub.

58:15 Northwest became a hub or Minneapolis became a hub because that's where ~ Northwest was out of, and then Atlanta was. And then they reduced and cut a ton of flights. But here's what happened though in the early 2000s. Every time a discount airline Would try to come into Cincinnati and start flights, Delta would slash their prices on the same routes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right? And so it was all temporary. It was all temporary. And it's a it's a disaster from consumers because then the moment that the discount operator airline had to shut down, what do you think Delta did with their prices then? That's it. 100%. So the model for the discount airline said, let me always be a discount alternative for you, the consumer. If we survive.

58:58 We're gonna balance it. Not only are we gonna give you a better option, Delta's gonna have to bring their prices down some. Yeah. Right. So I don't know if that's similar to what we're talking about, what they'll try to do, but I'm sure it is. It is the same thing, but the point is we can survive. The point your story point was they didn't survive. If they managed to survive, it w it would have been a different story. Delta cannot do it forever. Corrected now and now yeah, now there's Frontier, now there's Allegiant, now there's South West. So eventually consumers won. Mm-hmm. Yep. That's right. Yeah. That's why we are ~ you know, putting ourselves into the center of as a network and infrastructure. So as long as we manage our operation lean and efficient, but also at the same time those convincing the drivers as a network owner together, we're not gonna die.

59:58 Yeah. So good. So right now in this country, anybody who wants to use Tata, can we just use it where? Just in New York City and Denver right now? Right. So now New York City is through Denver or through users can use it as well. ~ we're looking into ~ expansion for fourth quarter into ~ D C and Philadelphia and Boston. We are looking into it and then we're applying the license right now. Yeah. Okay, so it's coming. Yeah, it is coming. Okay. So so right now you can download the through app in Denver and New York City and use it and engage with your company right now. Yes, that's right. Okay. And then in the fourth quarter, third and fourth quarter, when they come to D C and Boston, when they come to those cities, will it be instant, right? The moment that you launch, download the app, use it there.

1:00:45 And it'll feel from a consumer standpoint, we can usually, based on what we used to pay, because the big boys might they might drive down prices, but But based on what we used to pay, it'll look like it's more favorable and more affordable for us. Exactly. Yeah, it's gonna happen that way. ~ so before opening service, so the here's the process. We apply for the license, we get the license. While I'm getting the license, what I do is actually I'll go to DC and then start talking to drivers. Like maybe a month. DC should be a month should be good enough. And then make everybody's ready and the driver's ready and then once we open service then it's just happening like full of months.

1:01:27 Yeah. All right. So here's a so here's a a question that a a pointed question about the future of this. So as a consumer, let's say we download through, we're using the through app. At some point you gain market share of eight to ten to fifteen percent. Mm-hmm. What drivers said, hey, it's all great now, but you're gonna take it back in the future. Now as consumers, how can we have the confidence that then the prices don't then go up once you've established, once we're bought in? that all of a sudden you don't change from being a good, better option for us to look similar to the other providers. Wow.

1:02:07 The promise would be good enough to convince people that I promise you we're not gonna raise the price. This is it's it's just simple words, right? But what we're trying to do is actually we record all this information into blockchain. Once you implement this into the let's say smart contract and such information, it it cannot be changed without having the public consensus. So those kind of ways that we can actually implement into it. So but again, like our past track record. For example, like since two thousand you know, ~ eighteen and until now, we're the cheapest player in Singapore. Yeah. And in all other region as well. So we the point is like we don't have any motivation to increase the price.

1:02:51 Cause we don't take cut of a percentage, right? So increasing the price, ~ the motivation of increasing the price is actually those big giant platforms. They do have a lot because they need to take a lot of commission. So that's the way they can actually make a profit. And then with that profit, they're gonna buy a lot of A V and then they're gonna dig the drivers. Here you go. So the big question to wrap this up, even though you want people to go to the website, check out the app, even if it's not to your city yet, it's coming. ~ then how do you guys make money? Very good question. So every single transaction of the trips there is a small fixed fee. So fair below twenty dollar, for example, below twenty dollar fifty cents, fair above twenty dollar, one dollar.

1:03:38 That's that simple. Makes sense why you have fifty thousand new drivers. Exactly. Yeah. So good. all right, give us your final sales pitch for drivers, for consumers to use it, other than just Kay just being such a nice guy, other than he's not going to quit, other than he's gonna fight and it's on the blockchain and we're not gonna change pricing. Give us the why because what's so important now, which we found with consumers, Main Street businesses are becoming so much more relevant and important and valuable to us than Wall Street businesses. And so Give us the pitch on why to engage, participate, partner, ~ why you versus all the other folks in the same business?

1:04:28 Okay, let me put it this way. if you care your family, your uncle or your father or your mother, you need to actually be aware of what you're using. If you use one service that actually extracting a lot of money from contributors pocket and then make themselves rich, that's not gonna change the whole world. That's gonna change only those rich persons' life. But if you manage to find the right service, but same quality of service that you're gonna get, but in a way you can actually support the your uncle, could be your uncle or your friend's uncle.

1:05:14 Those people can also make a good living and you can also enhance the livelihood of those drivers. Right? But also at the same time, you can save. I win for everybody. Hmm. All right. This is good. All right, man. The ~ I'm pumped to watch it evolve. I'm glad we finally got to talk. We had trouble connecting, but ~ this is good. Is the best way to keep up with what's happening with your company, if you're not in our city, jump on your website, follow you on social. What's the best way we can track what you're building to watch when you're coming coming to one of our cities? Hm, so we do or we do have actually a TikTok channel and then ~ X ~ account and ~ Instagram channel. And actually I've got ~ getting a lot of messages from drivers from Chicago, Minneapolis, and then what they're saying is like can you bring our service ~ you know, Kay, can you bring your service to my city and then I'm willing to help you. So that's the message that I'm getting.

1:06:14 So any drivers from your town, for example, just let me know. And then For sure like we're gonna go there. Hundred percent sure. percent sure. Only to the big cities? Only to the No, it's not no, it's not only to the big cities. So now like New York is the very it's like really, really big is the challenge for us. And after New York, expanding to other cities and you know, states is just only a matter of time. Awesome. All right, man. I'm glad we finally got to connect. Much, much, much success on yeah, much success on what you're building and helping other people become wealthy and developing more entrepreneurs. And ~ good job sticking with it, man. You you did something during that during that period when it was really hard and it looked like your business couldn't survive.

1:06:57 ~ kudos to your family, kudos to you, your business partners, that you stuck with it because every entrepreneur, everyone I know goes through a moment like that, if not multiple. Yeah. A lot wave the white flag a lot quit, but those that continue on, they end up usually building something very beneficial for them and their families, but then building a special product for the marketplace. So so kudos and a high five for you sticking with it and building this, man. Sure. Thanks Mark. And I I I really, really appreciate your ~ question. This actually ~ I enjoyed this conversation a lot. And then you touched the very, very you know, critical points of what I have inside. So I really appreciate You're welcome, man. Thank you for taking the time.

1:07:40 Now get back to work. We need this in Minneapolis and Chicago. All Sure. Sounds good. All right. right, man. Thank you.