#206 - How Great Leaders Scale Through AI, Curiosity & Culture | John Sampogna

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If you're doing something that you love, more often than not, you're gonna get out of the
bed with the right intention.

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And that is what's most important.

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You're gonna put yourself in a position to have more good days than bad days.

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And I think that's all you can ask for in life in any aspect of it.

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Hey you all, welcome back for another fun episode.

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This is gonna be good.

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the guest today, John, and I'll pronounce his last name properly, I promise.

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And if I don't, he'll correct me.

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Um I just I'm so excited to sit down for podcasts and we'll talk for the next forty-five
to fifty minutes about people with a good attitude.

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And the energy that John's had on the first 10 minutes has just been good.

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Uh I came out of a personal leadership meeting inside one of the companies I run.

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I'm coming out of it to the podcast, and it just seems like every conversation that I'm on
right now.

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With leaders inside my company, with an event I just held called Worth It, where we had
entrepreneurs from around the country come in.

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It's the attitude of an individual is what matters most.

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And you can really work with that and build and grow and overcome and problem solve.

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But when someone just doesn't have a good, inherently positive, good attitude, you just
can't do much with it.

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So I'm pumped today to talk to John Sampogna He's the co founder and CEO of Wondersauce a
business acceleration agency.

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Helping brands grow and evolve.

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Over the past fifteen years, he's led work for companies like Nike, L'Oreal, and Grubhub
while scaling Wondersauce into a hundred plus person firm and earning a spot on the Inc.

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five thousand list.

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Fog week's acquisition by Project Worldwide, John continues to lead the company at the
intersection of creative technology and performance.

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So John, welcome to the necessary entrepreneur.

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All right, man.

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Was that an intro that was proper and acceptable?

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I think it was perfect.

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All right, man.

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I like because perfection's tough to obtain.

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Um, what do you what's your relationship with performance and perfection?

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What do you where do where do you land with that?

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I mean, I I don't think it's anywhere near perfection, but I think that you have to
constantly be pushing yourself to learn and to evolve as a person, both professionally and

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and personally.

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And when things start to get more comfortable and r the routine starts to feel really
predictable, I think it's important to to shake things up because you're you're gonna get

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stale and bored and ultimately lazy.

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So anything you could do to of to fight

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Being lazy I think is good.

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It's good to be lazy in certain aspects of life sometimes, but not not all the time.

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Through this journey of you starting the company at a young age and then selling it and
then maintaining the CEO role and growing, are there moments you could reflect on?

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Like 'cause I think we get to our I mean, you're not quite, you're just going over the 40
hurdle and over the bridge.

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I've been there for seven years here at 47.

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But are there moments that you can we start to lose our ego more, I think.

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That the best ones of us do.

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And you're more interested in getting it right for for you and your team than you are
being right.

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Can you reflect back over the past twenty say years and reflect on those moments of
boredom?

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Reflect on were there moments of laziness, or did that not exist in you?

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And if it didn't exist in you when you saw it maybe setting in the companies you're
running or the groups you're you're running with?

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I think like early on in my career it it was never it was never an option.

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I I mean I started working um right before like the financial crisis and I I remember
vividly um the day that there were like layoffs at the firm I was working at and I

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remember just sitting there not really knowing what was going on and seeing people around
me just go into a room and leave and

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It was like a cycle that was going on for like hours.

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And I remember just being like, This is horrible.

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And thinking like, I must be next, right?

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And thankfully I I I was never I I was fine.

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but I mean, looking back, it was funny.

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I was I was making probably like thirty thousand dollars.

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Of course I was pro of course I was fine.

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but I remember I remember looking around and just being like, This is just cold and it was
a dose of reality.

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And I remember um it kind of set my mindset

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around this idea that you always had to be pushing yourself to be the best person um
within your group, within your within your agency or place of work or whatever you're

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doing, and to ask questions, to question things that you do that disagree with and develop
a point of view.

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And I remember, I mean, from twenty one to twenty five, twenty six, that was like my my
vibe with the two companies I worked in.

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I was constantly I thought of myself as better than I was at the time and I wanted to be
put on the most intense things.

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And I think that mindset led me to like the reality that for me to be truly happy, I need
to start something myself.

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Because I was never gonna be happy being restrained and having to follow someone else's
playbook.

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If I have so many complaints and gripe and gripes about like how I would do things
differently, at some point just do it differently.

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Because to your point earlier, you don't wanna be the person just complaining.

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You wanna be the person who's like leading change in a positive light.

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So

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Yeah, I I look back at that all the time and I'm just like, I think those early days kind
of set my my mindset.

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So doesn't that bring us all the way to 2026 with this intersection with AI?

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Right.

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I had an event last week.

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first one, it's always wacky when you do something for the first time, and events are hard
and to sell tickets.

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We called it worth it.

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It was here in Cincinnati.

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We had some awesome entrepreneurs come around for it.

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But one of the riffs I had on stage, it was a fireside chat environment.

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I was interviewing some folks, some were presentations by them, but I had about a three or
four minute riff.

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on you had it at twenty one and at twelve years old I had this moment.

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I grew up, we grew up financially poor.

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And I had this moment that I realized I was working for a landscaper pulling weeds and I
knew that it was my job to make sure I pulled the root because if I didn't, the customer

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that that landscaping company worked for was going to have an issue with the customer
saying you didn't do the right job.

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And ever since that day, since I was twelve years old, I realized like it's my when I get
paid to do a job, I need to finish the job.

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I need to do it all the way.

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But that's actually scaled to a different level and we'll talk about this.

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I want to hear your perspective with AI.

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But then because I established that mindset, because I arrived at that place on what my
job was, I inherently by default just ended up being one of the twenty percent.

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And one of the twenty percent was to your point, when all those people were being let go,
for some reason you were there.

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Yeah, it was a part of thirty thousand dollars, but I bet there were some people there
that made about what you made that got let go that day too.

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And so what I told people, I said, in the world of AI, if you want, don't worry about it,
worry about the level of employee or the whether the level of leader you are.

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Because if you are elite inside your job, inside your career, against the people that
you're doing the same job with or against, if you stand out and you're more valuable to

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the entity, whatever the entity is, if they do for some reason let you go, other people
are going to know about you and you will always have a career.

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Yeah, I agree.

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So we're gonna go ahead.

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Yeah, I I think that's well said and and it's spot on.

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I mean, you know, depending on how big of an impact you believe AI will have on the world,
it's going to have I mean it's going to have an incredible impact.

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And uh, you know, you read about you read about like the far exaggerated, maybe not even
exaggerated, but you read about like how it could take over everything and there'll be

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like

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government assisted living and all this stuff of like no one's gonna do anything.

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that if we put that aside for a second and just talk about like near term implementation
and what it's going to do across industries and sectors.

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I look at it like a tool.

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It's a guitar, it's a golf club, it's a computer, it's whatever you want it to be, but
like a golf club is different in my hand, the same club than it is in like Rory McElroy's

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hand, than it is in someone who'd never picked it up before.

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and the same thing could be said about AI.

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So while it will democratize a lot of things and make um aspects of the workplace
commoditized and approachable for the so anyone at any level can do it, I think the work

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that people get paid for, the intellectual property, the knowledge, the ideas that you as
an individual bring to the table, you could use AI as a tool to it enable that and empower

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that and make it even better than than before.

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So I think of it as a tool to make what makes you unique and special, accelerated and
stronger.

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Now, do I think part of what I'm saying is like wishful thinking?

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Maybe.

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But I just can't imagine um there being no level of original thought, uniqueness, and new
things that will mat like that that stuff has to matter.

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It will always matter.

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So

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You know, I I like I like to look at it as something that like you have to adapt, you have
to use.

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Um, but ultimately it's a tool and there's no such thing as a level play playing ground if
that makes sense.

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I think it still comes down to skill.

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I think let me try to say it in one sentence.

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I believe AI is gonna eliminate mediocrity.

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I think so too, yeah.

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Which is which is good.

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It's and here's why it's good, I guess.

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If someone only feels empowered to be mediocre in their job, they should be doing
something else anyway.

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Yeah.

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And I I also think that with any large change in

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industry that is technology led, whether it was like the advent of the computer or the
internet or social media or anything we've been going on this journey for the last thirty

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plus years, uh, it takes time for things to actually shake out.

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And people will have time to adapt and reinvent themselves.

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And I mean, the way I see it is it's already been two plus years that a lot of these tools
have been at a broad enough adoption where

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you should be pretty comfortable using them at this point.

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So I think that there's equal parts risk and opportunity that everyone can take advantage
of right now.

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And if you are stuck in a rut and bored with what you're doing, or you feel like you've
plateaued and you're not passionate, it's an amazing time to actually reinvent.

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So I think it's two sides.

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How are you asking the partners or employees at Wondersauce that you lead?

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How are you asking them to interact and engage with AI?

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the it's it's it's mandated.

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I mean you have to use it in in all aspects of what we do.

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I mean, if there there are there are there are efficiency angles where you could write
code faster, you could write copy faster, you could um develop creative vision faster.

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There are a lot of things that like if you put talent behind it and you know how to use it
correctly, you can accelerate valuable output.

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So there's like an acceleration angle that like

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It's also ubiquitous AI at this point.

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It's in everything we use.

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It's not like you have to like go to the AI machine now to do something.

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It's in it's in everything.

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Whether you're using, you know, um a Claude or an open AI or or Gemini or anything like
that, but it's it's also in like Adobe and Runway and Figma and GitHub and every tool we

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use, Slack.

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I mean, it's everywhere.

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So it's it's one of those things where um from an efficiency standpoint.

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you need to adapt it because you you just have to.

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And then from like a visioning standpoint, where I like to say like push creative output
that um like get to the valuable stuff faster.

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Like I mean, I'll tell you like now, like like my my workflow for writing decks and like a
compelling narrative.

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Like when I have to present something to someone, get approval on something, get buy in on
an investment, I used to write a deck outline.

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And would do it myself.

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And I always had like the ideas.

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I had I I'm I'm I've just been like, it's always been something I've been naturally good
at.

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I could develop ideas fast.

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And I would used to I used to give it to a team to validate.

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And they would come back and it would be like a kind of a back and forth ping pong battle.

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And then we would get a deck after a week and a half and then I'd go present it.

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I mean, now I could be on the treadmill.

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I'm I'm talking to Gemini or OpenAI on my phone, and I'm literally brainstorming.

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where I want to take my narrative.

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And then at the end of my of my of my run, I say, summarize everything we just talked
about.

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I take it when I'm done, I throw it into like a deep research report in Gemini where I
say, pick this apart.

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And I want any factual inaccuracies identified.

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And I want you to really z zero in on the interesting nuggets that I'm kind of talking
about.

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And I'll have my my literal like thought track.

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I'll have deep research to validate it.

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I'll take all of that.

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I'll throw it into something and say, now spit out the outline for me.

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And it it's literally like here's ten, ten slides.

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I say the headlines only.

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And then I'll look at that when I have a clear space and I'll rewrite them myself in the
way I want to actually present them.

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And I'll throw it into my my like John bot that I have that that I use to write stuff.

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Like that workflow on my best days, I can do that in under an hour.

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It doesn't require anyone's help.

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So when I bring that idea to my head of strategy or my head of technology or a group of
creatives, I'm giving them a coherent thought.

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Um, beginning to end with ideas that are factually accurate.

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And I'm like, what do you think about this?

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Let's push it.

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That is me taking something I've always done and leveling up my ability.

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It's still my ideas, still my narrative, but I'm using this tool to make it all faster and
better.

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So

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I don't see any I think that's amazing.

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Yeah, it's where the mediocrity is gone.

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Yeah.

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It's gone.

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It if you interact with it properly, it will level you up in all the deficiencies that we
all have and it will make it elite every time.

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And so I think what you said in the beginning about you just can't imagine a time where
unique and new thought doesn't matter.

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It so like we're gonna so are we all gonna settle and say like as of this moment there
will be nothing new.

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We're all gonna just gonna live off the same the same information that we've had up until
this point in history, and it'll just be slop on top of slop, slop, slop until it's just

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slop talking to slop and iterating like like no, of course not.

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There's

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Unless AI becomes

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It's own thinker.

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What you could.

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That's the debate, right?

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That that is the debate.

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I still think though that no matter what happens, there's no there's nothing that can
happen for it to turn off human thought.

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Um and also like just like thinking about what I do in terms of just marketing.

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Marketing, advertising, whatever, it is no matter what, it is trends based.

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And you know, as connected as everyone is, um, on their phones, now like a big trend is
like you go to a concert and you lock your phone in one of these lockers.

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You

202
00:15:57,045 --> 00:16:06,978
Wanna go to sleep at night, you want to manage your phone use, there's apps, there's tools
now to limit app distraction from your your your mental health.

203
00:16:06,978 --> 00:16:17,020
Um the second people get so pumped on digital art, I promise you there's going to be
something that comes out that's completely handwritten and that will be trendy.

204
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:21,932
So it's like it it's always going to be this this balance.

205
00:16:21,932 --> 00:16:27,105
And I think the idea is like analog isn't right, machine isn't right.

206
00:16:27,105 --> 00:16:33,703
What's right is somewhere in the middle, and you need to be versed in both, and you can't
be over leveraged on one side.

207
00:16:34,039 --> 00:16:35,922
Terminator two thousand twenty nine, right?

208
00:16:35,922 --> 00:16:42,161
Um what's your leadership style?

209
00:16:43,255 --> 00:16:44,275
Direct.

210
00:16:44,535 --> 00:16:59,770
direct and um you know I I'm I'm not gonna like mince words and I want people to succeed
in our structure.

211
00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:12,395
We've got an amazing retention rate and what I'm most proud of in terms of what we built
is our ability to grow people from within and they go on to do amazing things either

212
00:17:12,395 --> 00:17:14,296
within our walls or elsewhere.

213
00:17:14,296 --> 00:17:18,317
So I'm not saying I'm I'm far from perfect.

214
00:17:18,317 --> 00:17:30,662
you know, I lot it's taken a lot of reflection over the last fifteen years to dial back my
um sometimes abrasive behavior or um I'm too quick to react on something and maybe I shut

215
00:17:30,662 --> 00:17:37,565
down a really good idea because I didn't like the first 30 seconds of someone's kind of
talk track and I'm like, nope, don't like it.

216
00:17:37,565 --> 00:17:41,911
So I've reflected a lot personally that like you can be direct, but

217
00:17:41,911 --> 00:17:44,812
You also need to be an incredible listener.

218
00:17:44,812 --> 00:17:47,893
And that's something that I've really, really kind of tried to focus on now.

219
00:17:47,893 --> 00:17:51,514
Um, it'd be interesting to ask this question to some of my people.

220
00:17:51,514 --> 00:17:59,877
Um, but it's something that I've I've really tried is to is to listen and let people go
with things more autonomously.

221
00:17:59,877 --> 00:18:03,198
But it's always been direct.

222
00:18:03,198 --> 00:18:04,229
I don't want something to linger.

223
00:18:04,229 --> 00:18:05,639
If I see it, it's a problem.

224
00:18:06,797 --> 00:18:12,329
So it sounds like you forced yourself to have a relationship with self awareness at a top
level.

225
00:18:13,143 --> 00:18:13,703
You have to.

226
00:18:13,703 --> 00:18:15,034
I mean, I was never trained in this.

227
00:18:15,034 --> 00:18:25,232
I you know, w one one minute you're you're you're twenty six and you're talking to your
buddy at a bar about starting a company and then three years later you're managing eighty

228
00:18:25,232 --> 00:18:25,582
people.

229
00:18:25,582 --> 00:18:27,643
I mean, there's no there's no MBA for that.

230
00:18:27,643 --> 00:18:28,714
There's no training.

231
00:18:28,714 --> 00:18:30,175
You just have to figure it out, right?

232
00:18:30,175 --> 00:18:40,382
Um I w you know, there's there's you're you're you're forcing yourself to learn
operations, uh, the legal side of the business, you know, um the financial side of the

233
00:18:40,382 --> 00:18:41,483
business and

234
00:18:41,483 --> 00:18:44,027
Of course, all the interpersonal people stuff from HR.

235
00:18:44,027 --> 00:18:49,705
So you have no choice but to reflect on on your s your your style.

236
00:18:49,705 --> 00:18:52,689
You you don't know anything, so you have to you have to reflect.

237
00:18:53,175 --> 00:18:55,710
What's your best form of learning that you do?

238
00:18:57,847 --> 00:19:05,010
Honestly, I I I I always say this to people and it's like the weirdest answer, but I I
take inspiration from random things.

239
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:12,473
I I never was into like business books or um I never looked up to like leaders.

240
00:19:12,473 --> 00:19:16,115
I I looked up to like specific traits of people that I really liked.

241
00:19:16,115 --> 00:19:23,878
But I could like I I think of my people that I consider mentors and I I think like I liked
aspects of what they did.

242
00:19:23,878 --> 00:19:27,219
But in totality, I'd be like, nah, I don't really

243
00:19:27,339 --> 00:19:30,031
No, I'm not really interested in learn learning from you on that thing.

244
00:19:30,031 --> 00:19:31,301
Just just that.

245
00:19:31,782 --> 00:19:36,665
So I I got inspired by looking around and seeing something, and I'm like, that's really
interesting.

246
00:19:36,665 --> 00:19:38,205
I've never seen that before.

247
00:19:38,205 --> 00:19:44,769
And it could be like could be like a uh a deli doing something random.

248
00:19:44,769 --> 00:19:49,002
It could be like the weirdest stuff.

249
00:19:49,002 --> 00:19:55,135
It could be a billboard outside and the placement of the billboard along with the copy,
and I'm staring at it for a while and I'm like,

250
00:19:55,457 --> 00:20:02,649
And I try to like work myself backwards as to like, why did the person who decided to do
that or put it there, why did they do it?

251
00:20:02,649 --> 00:20:05,010
And I'm I try to kind of like work backwards.

252
00:20:05,010 --> 00:20:15,472
And I kind of like save all this stuff in my mind and I end up like applying stuff that I
learned from maybe like hospitality to like automotive.

253
00:20:16,393 --> 00:20:21,674
And it's a it's it's a I can't really connect the lot the line, but it's a dotted line in
my brain.

254
00:20:21,694 --> 00:20:24,599
So I I I just learn from observing in the real world and

255
00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:25,980
seeing how people interact with things.

256
00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:34,106
I think like if you're in advertising and marketing, it's about understanding human
behavior and why people like and dislike stuff.

257
00:20:34,226 --> 00:20:41,471
So it's why people love they love their this deodorant, don't like that deodorant when it
could be made in the same factory.

258
00:20:43,363 --> 00:20:48,435
So you're probably a guy who was always swaying upstream and didn't fit in a lot of
places, right?

259
00:20:49,579 --> 00:20:56,035
Yeah, ironically I I feel like I always got a w got along well with a with a bunch of
different groups of people.

260
00:20:56,035 --> 00:20:56,185
Right.

261
00:20:56,185 --> 00:20:57,691
Yeah, you weren't in a certain quick, right?

262
00:20:57,691 --> 00:21:03,328
You can hang with anybody, but you were probably misunderstood if you really got deep in
any of those places.

263
00:21:04,055 --> 00:21:04,416
Definitely.

264
00:21:04,416 --> 00:21:07,249
I'm still I'm s I'm a I'm a I'm a weird guy.

265
00:21:08,045 --> 00:21:10,678
But that means that that's true entrepreneurship, right?

266
00:21:10,678 --> 00:21:20,947
To to to have this way to think, to be really in you to have intuition at the next level,
to understand to search out new ideas and being willing to like strike out on your own and

267
00:21:20,947 --> 00:21:28,234
say, I'm gonna go down this path because I believe it's right, even though everyone around
me is telling me it's wrong, I'm gonna do this.

268
00:21:28,234 --> 00:21:29,865
Does that sound familiar?

269
00:21:30,517 --> 00:21:31,147
It does.

270
00:21:31,147 --> 00:21:36,289
And I I I always love looking at like consensus thinking.

271
00:21:36,289 --> 00:21:40,931
Um, it could be it could be in any aspect of of life.

272
00:21:41,031 --> 00:21:47,854
And when everyone is like really negative on something, I I'm like really trying to find a
positive on it.

273
00:21:47,854 --> 00:21:57,478
Where I'm like, maybe some smart people were negative on this, and then the rest are just
like jumping on.

274
00:21:57,518 --> 00:21:59,969
So it's probably not as bad.

275
00:22:00,097 --> 00:22:01,888
as everyone's making it out to be.

276
00:22:01,888 --> 00:22:11,593
And if you actually figure out something decent within this thing everyone's piling on,
there's probably an opportunity because no one else is focusing on it.

277
00:22:11,593 --> 00:22:16,636
So I think like it's a it's a really good kind of like hack for anything.

278
00:22:16,636 --> 00:22:29,973
Whereas like if every single person in your town I keep using like food as a if if every
single person in your town is jumping on like the um farm to table

279
00:22:29,997 --> 00:22:35,826
you know, organic or vegan thing or whatever, then like there's an opportunity somewhere.

280
00:22:35,826 --> 00:22:38,569
It's a bad example, but like

281
00:22:38,827 --> 00:22:41,362
There's an opportunity to fill a void that's not that.

282
00:22:42,173 --> 00:22:42,834
Exactly.

283
00:22:42,834 --> 00:22:52,198
Or and and to figure out a way to like turn whatever people are saying is negative into
something that is just a different version of that that's actually positive and

284
00:22:52,198 --> 00:22:56,263
compliments the stuff people do like, but it's approaching it from a different angle.

285
00:22:57,255 --> 00:23:03,199
Um, what are the characteristics that you love in the people that work with you um in the
company that you run?

286
00:23:03,199 --> 00:23:03,810
What do you love?

287
00:23:03,810 --> 00:23:08,703
What are some of the most that you're like, man, you see it and you're like, that's
somebody I can do something with?

288
00:23:09,445 --> 00:23:10,797
curiosity.

289
00:23:11,258 --> 00:23:17,597
Always like wanting to learn and and sort of like

290
00:23:19,275 --> 00:23:20,956
not afraid to just jump into something.

291
00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,715
Um, especially now, right, with AI.

292
00:23:23,715 --> 00:23:30,630
Like, there's no courses to take that we would take at least, um, on on on what's going to
make you viable.

293
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:33,681
The only thing that that's going to make you viable is figuring it out yourself.

294
00:23:33,722 --> 00:23:37,984
So I need people that don't look at that as work.

295
00:23:37,984 --> 00:23:42,726
That they're like on the weekends and at night they're geeking out on this stuff because
they think it's fun.

296
00:23:42,726 --> 00:23:45,751
And I don't care if they're do if they're using it to make like

297
00:23:45,751 --> 00:23:51,273
funny images of their friends or if they're using it to like organize their their personal
finances.

298
00:23:51,273 --> 00:23:56,736
Um, but they're using it and they're figuring out how to like work with agents and all
this other stuff.

299
00:23:56,736 --> 00:24:00,507
So like for me, curiosity was always really big.

300
00:24:00,507 --> 00:24:07,120
And I used to I remember this back in the day, like I used to read, you know, every single
day I would read like the New York Times.

301
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,061
I have my RSS feed back when RSS feeds were a thing.

302
00:24:10,061 --> 00:24:15,273
And I would read like, I would at least scan like hundreds of articles every single day.

303
00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:18,137
And I never looked at that as work.

304
00:24:18,137 --> 00:24:20,477
I just liked to know stuff.

305
00:24:20,778 --> 00:24:31,163
And I just think you need that today more than ever, because um you you need to be ahead
of the person next to you with something.

306
00:24:31,843 --> 00:24:35,805
Do you need to know how to process all this information that's coming at us too?

307
00:24:35,805 --> 00:24:44,832
We have more coming at us now about every subject and people trying to influence our brain
to believe what they believe, their perspective, buy their product.

308
00:24:44,832 --> 00:24:47,513
Do you need to have these skills more now than ever?

309
00:24:47,513 --> 00:24:56,469
And if you're curious and you're solving through those things in earlier years in your
life, maybe that's an ability that you have to process information as well.

310
00:24:57,813 --> 00:24:58,823
Yeah.

311
00:24:59,604 --> 00:25:06,469
It's funny and you have to be careful too with like what you're consuming and how accurate
it is and how factual it is.

312
00:25:06,469 --> 00:25:19,898
Um, but for me, like zooming out and identifying key themes, and even if you are getting
served something within like the algorithm that you're like, Why am I getting served all

313
00:25:19,898 --> 00:25:20,349
this stuff?

314
00:25:20,349 --> 00:25:22,420
And it's like zoom out for a minute.

315
00:25:22,420 --> 00:25:26,823
And I always say, like, look at look at like slow news, look at like

316
00:25:26,935 --> 00:25:29,039
The slowest stuff you can find.

317
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:34,408
Like stuff that maybe has to live in print in a magazine from a respected place.

318
00:25:34,408 --> 00:25:37,001
And like just zoom out for a minute and like

319
00:25:38,509 --> 00:25:46,444
Take a look at what they're covering topic-wise and get a feel for what's going on when
people actually have like a deadline and things have to like stop.

320
00:25:46,444 --> 00:25:55,070
And I'm not saying that's like that's like fact that's the the the Bible or anything, but
I do think it's important to like focus on some slow stuff once in a while.

321
00:25:55,070 --> 00:26:00,534
And that like you you're not always focused on like fast, fast, now, now, refresh,
refresh, refresh.

322
00:26:00,534 --> 00:26:07,459
Cause then you get yourself into this like, you know, death scroll rot state, which is
also like really unhealthy.

323
00:26:07,459 --> 00:26:07,979
So

324
00:26:07,979 --> 00:26:09,020
I think it's just balance.

325
00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:19,825
It's like a little bit of podcasts, a little bit of Instagram and TikTok, a little bit of
traditional news, a little bit of linear TV, you know, live sports, whatever you're into,

326
00:26:19,825 --> 00:26:31,521
but like curate your media mix in a thoughtful way and um try not to get over over
leveraged on any one source.

327
00:26:32,843 --> 00:26:33,703
Isn't that the truth?

328
00:26:33,703 --> 00:26:44,953
So with Wondersauce, I think you it's a what do you really how do you describe the term
business acceleration agency?

329
00:26:45,254 --> 00:26:46,815
It's a unique term.

330
00:26:47,061 --> 00:26:47,612
Yeah.

331
00:26:47,612 --> 00:26:53,717
Um, we help brands unlock their next stage of growth.

332
00:26:53,717 --> 00:26:55,619
And we do it through two paths.

333
00:26:55,619 --> 00:27:06,048
So the pat the first path is around like digital transformation, which is basically
working with the brands to rethink and rebuild their own infrastructure.

334
00:27:06,048 --> 00:27:10,232
So it could be a website, an app, or a net new idea.

335
00:27:10,232 --> 00:27:14,541
Things that like their customers use this brand for.

336
00:27:14,541 --> 00:27:15,712
So we help a lot with that.

337
00:27:15,712 --> 00:27:23,639
We do that for a lot of different types of brands, whether it's e-commerce businesses or
you know, a website or an app or whatever, but do a lot of that.

338
00:27:23,639 --> 00:27:26,681
And then we do a lot of um revenue acceleration.

339
00:27:26,681 --> 00:27:31,986
So basically working with a brand who is here and getting them to here.

340
00:27:31,986 --> 00:27:39,372
And that could be from one million dollars in revenue to 10 million, from 10 million to
100 million, et cetera, et cetera.

341
00:27:39,372 --> 00:27:42,915
And we basically use a mix of tactics.

342
00:27:43,703 --> 00:27:46,334
that drive both earned and paid attention.

343
00:27:46,334 --> 00:27:57,429
So we do a lot of creator and influencer content, we do brand content, um, a lot of paid
media beyond just like social and search.

344
00:27:57,429 --> 00:28:00,310
We do a lot of, you know, out of home and TV.

345
00:28:00,310 --> 00:28:11,465
Um, but basically we prescribe a mix of different types of marketing to um help brands get
to that next stage of of revenue.

346
00:28:11,465 --> 00:28:14,099
And we do it in a way that's it's measurable.

347
00:28:14,099 --> 00:28:19,156
So we can tell after like thirty, sixty, ninety, one twenty that we're on the right track.

348
00:28:19,156 --> 00:28:26,335
So we try and build a level of attribution so our we can make sure our work is is
impactful.

349
00:28:27,821 --> 00:28:37,582
Do you see a difference between marketing attracting eyeballs to a brand versus conversion
of that client?

350
00:28:37,582 --> 00:28:39,083
Are those different?

351
00:28:40,095 --> 00:28:40,873
Um

352
00:28:42,477 --> 00:28:46,888
Well, I would say within marketing there's there's a there's there's a few buckets.

353
00:28:46,888 --> 00:28:56,611
There's there's like on the performance lower funnel side where you're trying to get this
person to do something right now.

354
00:28:56,611 --> 00:29:07,054
Um so low like lower funnel tactics would be basically like Instagram ads that get people
to subscribe to this podcast.

355
00:29:07,054 --> 00:29:11,455
And your immediate action is basically like you're gonna pump some money into meta.

356
00:29:11,719 --> 00:29:20,105
And you're gonna set up your targeting and your goal is to get X amount of subscribers by
the end of next week.

357
00:29:20,105 --> 00:29:21,806
That would that to me is lower funnel.

358
00:29:21,806 --> 00:29:24,748
They may not know anything about your brand, they may not know you.

359
00:29:24,748 --> 00:29:30,332
So you have to go from like get them excited to get them to sign up very fast.

360
00:29:30,332 --> 00:29:40,973
So it's it's what's it's it's honestly uh what things like Instagram and TikTok are built
for, like immediate marketing type strategies.

361
00:29:40,973 --> 00:29:42,034
So there's a lot of that.

362
00:29:42,034 --> 00:29:45,846
And that type of marketing really took off during COVID.

363
00:29:45,846 --> 00:29:59,263
Um, every brand started basically transacting in this way where they started to use, like,
you know, our ROAS, our return on ad spend as this, our cost per acquisition number, our

364
00:29:59,263 --> 00:29:59,973
CAC.

365
00:29:59,973 --> 00:30:04,096
And they basically built their whole marketing point of view around that.

366
00:30:04,096 --> 00:30:10,423
And what a lot of brands forgot is that there's a s there's a complementary part to that,
which is on the awareness side.

367
00:30:10,423 --> 00:30:17,469
Where you're building a brand that has equity and value beyond the immediacy.

368
00:30:17,469 --> 00:30:20,973
You're doing things that don't have an immediate payoff.

369
00:30:20,973 --> 00:30:23,855
And this is traditional top-of-funnel marketing.

370
00:30:23,855 --> 00:30:27,008
It could be things like out of home.

371
00:30:27,008 --> 00:30:28,880
It could be stuff like this.

372
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,884
Like I would say, like me being on this podcast is awareness, right?

373
00:30:33,884 --> 00:30:35,734
I'm not, I'm not selling anything.

374
00:30:35,734 --> 00:30:37,143
I'm not um

375
00:30:37,143 --> 00:30:40,786
Talking about like why you need this website right now, blah, blah, blah.

376
00:30:40,786 --> 00:30:45,087
We're talking about general things within marketing and technology.

377
00:30:45,087 --> 00:30:51,923
And maybe one day, six months, eight months from now, someone listening will be like, that
guy, who is that guy?

378
00:30:51,923 --> 00:30:55,396
And they'll look up this episode and they'll say, and they'll maybe they'll email me.

379
00:30:55,396 --> 00:30:59,838
And like now, how the the how do you measure that in a neat and clean plan?

380
00:30:59,838 --> 00:31:01,039
It's really tough.

381
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:03,341
So like you need to have both.

382
00:31:03,341 --> 00:31:06,123
You have to have top of funnel and lower funnel working.

383
00:31:06,123 --> 00:31:06,923
So

384
00:31:06,923 --> 00:31:17,003
Eventually, if your top of funnel is working, it's going to help organically drive the
cost down of the lower funnel stuff because you're going to start getting people knowing

385
00:31:17,003 --> 00:31:27,202
your brand and repeat visiting you and visiting you for free because they associate you
with a category or a product or something.

386
00:31:27,343 --> 00:31:28,803
So you have to have both.

387
00:31:29,885 --> 00:31:32,657
Some brands are very overleveraged on one side right now.

388
00:31:32,737 --> 00:31:33,208
Yeah.

389
00:31:33,208 --> 00:31:37,195
Do you think it needs to be an even mix all the time or does that leverage need to change?

390
00:31:37,589 --> 00:31:40,660
It has to change based on the type of business and where the business is at.

391
00:31:40,660 --> 00:31:48,562
But, you know, I'd say right now, a lot of brands are really, really performance focused.

392
00:31:48,562 --> 00:31:57,004
And I understand why, but they're unintentionally like signing up for the fact that
they're gonna have to pay for every single customer forever.

393
00:31:57,004 --> 00:32:06,367
And the second you cover up their logo, they don't stand for anything because they've
never invested in the more lean back

394
00:32:06,367 --> 00:32:09,088
story narrative element of their business.

395
00:32:09,189 --> 00:32:11,530
Because it takes time, it takes patience.

396
00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:13,411
And there's not an immediate payoff.

397
00:32:13,411 --> 00:32:17,574
There's not this moment where you put twenty dollars into Meta and twenty dollars comes
out.

398
00:32:17,574 --> 00:32:20,115
This just takes time.

399
00:32:20,183 --> 00:32:21,023
Yeah.

400
00:32:21,544 --> 00:32:27,508
Is I'm sitting here listening and you talked about one area, one department, one part of
what your company does.

401
00:32:27,508 --> 00:32:33,832
And then I thought being in the CEO role and how someone grows and how you scale.

402
00:32:33,832 --> 00:32:43,919
And I think about the talent part because this place that I'm at, what I find is every
time I want to scale my business, no matter what you think it is, it's normally about

403
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:45,169
great people.

404
00:32:45,549 --> 00:32:46,310
Yeah.

405
00:32:47,607 --> 00:32:48,870
How have you done that?

406
00:32:51,895 --> 00:32:53,516
We are a people business.

407
00:32:54,276 --> 00:33:04,811
So our people are our IP and they are the people interacting with our clients and they're
coming up with our ideas and executing on our work.

408
00:33:04,811 --> 00:33:06,963
So without our people we are nothing.

409
00:33:06,963 --> 00:33:08,413
We are literally nothing.

410
00:33:10,477 --> 00:33:17,789
Having the right people is obviously crucial to our success and retaining them is even
more important.

411
00:33:17,789 --> 00:33:21,930
So for me, it it's a retention.

412
00:33:21,930 --> 00:33:28,352
Um it's a retention conversation versus um attracting new people.

413
00:33:28,352 --> 00:33:37,985
Uh we always are interviewing and we are always bringing people on, but if we're a hundred
people,

414
00:33:38,411 --> 00:33:40,952
And every single year thirty people leave.

415
00:33:41,232 --> 00:33:43,192
It's it's impossible to keep up.

416
00:33:43,192 --> 00:33:49,954
You're never gonna find the right thirty people every twelve months to to to fit in.

417
00:33:49,994 --> 00:33:51,255
It's gonna be chaos.

418
00:33:51,255 --> 00:34:00,327
And um I I remember like like during the pandemic when a lot of people were bouncing
through jobs, like we had a we had one year where our retention rate was like t our sorry,

419
00:34:00,327 --> 00:34:01,711
turnover rate was like twenty percent.

420
00:34:01,711 --> 00:34:04,278
It was all it was really high.

421
00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:05,889
So painful to

422
00:34:05,995 --> 00:34:06,896
on the recruitment side.

423
00:34:06,896 --> 00:34:09,337
So for me, it's all about retention.

424
00:34:10,399 --> 00:34:20,186
and that means you have to have a clear and honest dialogue with um your p your people,
understand what makes them tick, where they want to go, where they want to grow.

425
00:34:20,447 --> 00:34:30,034
And um I'm all about, you know, proactively um having those discussions around title,
salary, all that stuff.

426
00:34:30,034 --> 00:34:35,168
If if it if if it makes someone feel better about doing their job, um

427
00:34:35,245 --> 00:34:36,136
There's no reason to hide it.

428
00:34:36,136 --> 00:34:37,437
Let's just have a conversation.

429
00:34:37,437 --> 00:34:47,317
Because if you're hiding it, if you're not being upfront about it, that's when people
start to interview and they start to, you know, build build up um resentment or anything

430
00:34:47,317 --> 00:34:48,117
like everything like that.

431
00:34:48,117 --> 00:34:52,221
So uh I'm all in on on uh retention.

432
00:34:52,288 --> 00:34:52,638
Yeah.

433
00:34:52,638 --> 00:35:03,443
Um, what do you think your best habits are and strategies and tactics are to reinforce
retention at the level that you want?

434
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:23,253
I think it's it's understanding always that employment is a two way street and the
employer doesn't have as much control as they think they have.

435
00:35:23,253 --> 00:35:26,415
Um so

436
00:35:28,003 --> 00:35:38,292
Hearing someone out and listening, whether that's about themselves and where they want to
go, or a frustration they might have with how something's being run, or even their

437
00:35:38,292 --> 00:35:39,173
manager.

438
00:35:39,173 --> 00:35:50,812
So giving someone the opportunity to share feedback, but that is all stems from this idea
of like trying to create a culture that people actually feel comfortable having those

439
00:35:50,812 --> 00:35:52,563
conversations frequently.

440
00:35:54,385 --> 00:35:56,767
and I think it's just about.

441
00:35:58,147 --> 00:36:02,968
Creating an atmosphere that um put people in the best position to succeed.

442
00:36:02,968 --> 00:36:13,371
Um for us it's it was, you know, I remember, you know, the the whole shift from being in
the office every day to more hybrid.

443
00:36:13,551 --> 00:36:23,174
And when there was this push for everyone to go back to office, we we really kind of s
relied on our people to dictate what they wanted to do.

444
00:36:23,614 --> 00:36:25,734
Um, because the like everything changed.

445
00:36:25,734 --> 00:36:27,175
The world changed.

446
00:36:27,295 --> 00:36:28,135
And

447
00:36:28,427 --> 00:36:35,370
It would not be in our interest to throw in a mandate that we didn't think our people were
gonna believe in.

448
00:36:35,370 --> 00:36:38,191
So we relied on them to dictate things.

449
00:36:38,191 --> 00:36:42,813
And um we were fortunate enough to kind of strike something that works for everyone.

450
00:36:42,813 --> 00:36:53,857
So for me it's just about trying to create an atmosphere that puts people more often than
not in a position to succeed because, you know, also like we're not perfect, the world's

451
00:36:53,857 --> 00:36:58,249
not perfect, you're also gonna still be upset about some things we do and or don't do.

452
00:36:59,053 --> 00:36:59,823
Hmm.

453
00:37:00,507 --> 00:37:04,736
Can you go back to ten years ago when you sold the company and now you're the CEO?

454
00:37:04,736 --> 00:37:08,142
You're probably working for or with the people that you sold it to.

455
00:37:10,007 --> 00:37:13,188
So it's a tough question to ask about doing things different.

456
00:37:13,188 --> 00:37:19,181
But what insight did you have or do you have now that you didn't have 10 years ago?

457
00:37:19,181 --> 00:37:22,813
Like if you ever find yourself, because here's the narrative.

458
00:37:22,813 --> 00:37:25,324
Of course you're gonna be the CEO of Wondersauce forever.

459
00:37:25,804 --> 00:37:36,999
However, if you ever found yourself in another position where you built and scaled a
company and you were going to exit, what's the perspective now versus 10 years ago?

460
00:37:38,003 --> 00:37:41,604
We were we we I think we did it right.

461
00:37:41,604 --> 00:37:51,100
I mean we were we were wise beyond our years and we were very upfront with the people that
were um considering this deal.

462
00:37:51,260 --> 00:38:03,057
We said and we were very consistent, we said, you know, this is a full acquisition and
obviously like money is gonna play a part in this conversation, but we are thirty years

463
00:38:03,057 --> 00:38:04,788
old, thirty-one years old.

464
00:38:04,788 --> 00:38:06,829
We wanna build this thing still.

465
00:38:06,829 --> 00:38:07,879
We are

466
00:38:08,383 --> 00:38:17,839
We're less interested right now in like everything this has become where we're managing
the accounts receivable, our line of credit with the bank.

467
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:23,904
The founders were doing t too many operational things where we were not doing the fun
stuff anymore.

468
00:38:23,904 --> 00:38:29,067
And a big reason for the acquisition was like wanting that to be a thing in the
background.

469
00:38:29,308 --> 00:38:37,673
And it was important to us that we found a place that would allow us to continue this
growth story and have us feel.

470
00:38:38,009 --> 00:38:40,671
Um, like we were still controlling our destiny.

471
00:38:40,671 --> 00:38:51,320
And the place we um Project who who bought our company, um, it w what what stood out is
they owned at the time it was like 13 agencies and all but one still had the original

472
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,761
founder operating the business.

473
00:38:52,761 --> 00:38:54,813
So like the proof was in the pudding.

474
00:38:54,813 --> 00:38:57,225
They know how to retain founders.

475
00:38:57,265 --> 00:39:01,418
And um here I am ten years later.

476
00:39:01,418 --> 00:39:07,123
So I would say that if I ever was in a position again down the line to sell a business, I
would

477
00:39:07,123 --> 00:39:11,537
I think it's so crucial to be up front with your buyer.

478
00:39:11,537 --> 00:39:22,186
If if I'm if my if my narrative was, look, I don't want to do this anymore, but I've built
you a world class management team, so I don't matter.

479
00:39:22,186 --> 00:39:25,608
Let me show you that I don't matter when you're going through due diligence.

480
00:39:25,829 --> 00:39:30,493
It'd be good for them to know that before they buy us and I leave, you know?

481
00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:32,084
That that's how bad things happen.

482
00:39:32,084 --> 00:39:36,159
So I think it's just crucial whether you want to stick around or exit.

483
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:37,089
To just be up front.

484
00:39:37,089 --> 00:39:40,131
And I don't think people think about this stuff often.

485
00:39:40,131 --> 00:39:42,352
It's too financially driven, which I understand.

486
00:39:42,352 --> 00:39:44,373
That's a big piece of this.

487
00:39:44,373 --> 00:39:47,695
But the interpersonal side is so crucial.

488
00:39:47,695 --> 00:39:51,887
Because everything can go south if you if you feel like, you know, you're deceiving
someone.

489
00:39:52,757 --> 00:39:54,141
We're talking about communication, right?

490
00:39:54,141 --> 00:39:55,746
At a high level all the time.

491
00:39:55,746 --> 00:39:57,509
Whether it's comfortable or not.

492
00:39:58,899 --> 00:39:59,348
Exactly.

493
00:39:59,348 --> 00:40:00,429
Exactly.

494
00:40:01,351 --> 00:40:04,688
What belief about marketing did you have?

495
00:40:04,688 --> 00:40:10,889
There's gotta be something there that's been almost flipped on its end in a hundred and
eighty reversal over time.

496
00:40:10,889 --> 00:40:14,375
Is there something that sticks out that you don't have to dig for?

497
00:40:15,225 --> 00:40:20,927
Uh just that like anything, um, trends repeat.

498
00:40:21,288 --> 00:40:29,571
And when I kind of I alluded to it earlier, when something is swinging too aggressively
towards one side, start exploring the other side.

499
00:40:29,571 --> 00:40:36,754
It's and I don't care, like I don't care how disruptive a technology is, um, trends
repeat.

500
00:40:36,794 --> 00:40:42,156
You know, like we're living in a world now where like the nineties is like the is like the
coolest thing again.

501
00:40:42,156 --> 00:40:44,551
Everyone's like all obsessed with the nineties.

502
00:40:44,551 --> 00:40:47,210
And like having grown up in the nineties, it was cool.

503
00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:48,433
Like I remember it was the best.

504
00:40:48,433 --> 00:40:48,855
I was a kid.

505
00:40:48,855 --> 00:40:50,319
It was the always awesome.

506
00:40:50,319 --> 00:40:51,222
I miss it.

507
00:40:51,222 --> 00:40:52,284
But um

508
00:40:52,284 --> 00:40:56,559
my I wore my starter Cincinnati Reds jersey to a game last weekend.

509
00:40:56,841 --> 00:41:02,821
I have a starter Yankees jacket that like I basically had the same thing when I was a kid.

510
00:41:02,997 --> 00:41:05,135
Five years ago, people would have been calling me nerdy to wear it.

511
00:41:05,135 --> 00:41:05,912
I put it on work.

512
00:41:05,912 --> 00:41:07,233
They're like, man, that thing's cool, man.

513
00:41:07,233 --> 00:41:07,866
That's like retro.

514
00:41:07,866 --> 00:41:09,701
And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

515
00:41:11,820 --> 00:41:12,291
Wow.

516
00:41:12,291 --> 00:41:12,832
It's funny.

517
00:41:12,832 --> 00:41:14,305
Like things things repeat.

518
00:41:14,305 --> 00:41:21,117
And um like I remember being in the nineties and everyone was talking about like the
seventies.

519
00:41:21,137 --> 00:41:22,991
Like the seventies were cool.

520
00:41:23,221 --> 00:41:24,364
The nineties were fun, man.

521
00:41:24,364 --> 00:41:25,276
The nineties were fun.

522
00:41:25,276 --> 00:41:30,249
Before but before the crazy advent of the internet and social media and stuff.

523
00:41:30,249 --> 00:41:31,102
It felt free.

524
00:41:31,102 --> 00:41:32,965
Doesn't feel quite as free now.

525
00:41:34,259 --> 00:41:40,817
No, but I wonder if we were twelve and thirteen it might feel it might feel really free.

526
00:41:40,991 --> 00:41:42,181
Maybe too much.

527
00:41:42,922 --> 00:41:43,642
Probably.

528
00:41:43,642 --> 00:41:44,082
Yeah.

529
00:41:44,082 --> 00:41:48,843
Um so you were early on um as social as a growth lever.

530
00:41:48,843 --> 00:41:50,024
You saw it.

531
00:41:51,224 --> 00:41:52,995
But what what caused you to see it?

532
00:41:52,995 --> 00:41:58,514
Not obviously there were other people that did too, but what about your brain and the way
you think and the way that you weed and operate?

533
00:41:58,514 --> 00:42:03,208
I don't think it's just curiosity, but you saw it as a growth growth growth lever.

534
00:42:04,448 --> 00:42:05,189
Why was that?

535
00:42:05,189 --> 00:42:06,819
What'd you see that others didn't?

536
00:42:07,987 --> 00:42:09,268
how we grew up using the internet.

537
00:42:09,268 --> 00:42:21,138
I mean, I I was like 12 when we got America Online, and I was, you know, 13 and 14 on
Napster with my friends on in ninth grade.

538
00:42:21,138 --> 00:42:37,071
And we junior year of college, we got Facebook and met a bunch of people and, you know,
like I never thought of it as anything but things that

539
00:42:37,201 --> 00:42:39,402
exist in the modern economy.

540
00:42:39,442 --> 00:42:48,386
So of course there's going to be a role for brands to live there because brands want to be
where the attention is and that's where the attention is.

541
00:42:48,386 --> 00:42:55,509
So it was really fun back in like the early 2000s advising brands on like their social
media strategy.

542
00:42:55,509 --> 00:42:56,400
Like that used to be a thing.

543
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,251
Like here's your social strategy.

544
00:42:58,251 --> 00:42:59,311
Here's where you should be on.

545
00:42:59,311 --> 00:43:01,632
Like you should be on Twitter and this and that.

546
00:43:01,632 --> 00:43:02,893
Like that was fun.

547
00:43:03,677 --> 00:43:04,537
Hmm.

548
00:43:05,058 --> 00:43:13,264
The have you ever had a moment where inside running your current company, did you ever hit
a growth ceiling?

549
00:43:13,765 --> 00:43:15,476
And yet you couldn't figure it out?

550
00:43:15,476 --> 00:43:17,247
Okay, you've hit one.

551
00:43:17,247 --> 00:43:20,229
What what do you what do you think you have to audit to figure that out?

552
00:43:20,879 --> 00:43:24,171
It every it's y you'll see it's everything starts breaking.

553
00:43:24,171 --> 00:43:37,418
Um, you know, like your quality of work goes down, uh, people are unhappy, burnout's high,
you're as as a leader or a manager, you're you feel like you're just chasing random

554
00:43:37,418 --> 00:43:38,259
things.

555
00:43:38,259 --> 00:43:40,480
It it means your your system is completely broken.

556
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:46,123
Um, like I said, we grew from two people to a hundred people in the first three or four
years and we haven't grown since.

557
00:43:46,123 --> 00:43:50,077
We got up to like 120, 130, and it was

558
00:43:50,077 --> 00:43:51,738
It started getting too big, too sloppy.

559
00:43:51,738 --> 00:43:55,340
Um, the sweet spot is like for us eighty to ninety people.

560
00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:56,440
That's that's the spot.

561
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,063
And um I feel this, I I I say this all the time.

562
00:44:01,063 --> 00:44:05,285
We can we can double or tr and triple our revenue with the same exact team.

563
00:44:05,285 --> 00:44:07,747
It's just about the type of work we're doing.

564
00:44:07,747 --> 00:44:10,868
So scale for me is no longer headcount.

565
00:44:10,868 --> 00:44:18,032
It's it's it's about just proper proper revenue financial growth.

566
00:44:18,032 --> 00:44:20,125
And if I'm growing headcount.

567
00:44:20,125 --> 00:44:21,065
It's intentional.

568
00:44:21,065 --> 00:44:22,806
It's a very, very intentional thing.

569
00:44:22,806 --> 00:44:24,167
And I have a reason for doing it.

570
00:44:24,167 --> 00:44:28,409
And I might say, I am gonna add 10 people and they're gonna be focused on this.

571
00:44:28,409 --> 00:44:30,580
I have a carve out in my business plan in my brain.

572
00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:36,152
And for me to go to like from one hundred to two hundred, I'm not against it.

573
00:44:36,152 --> 00:44:38,573
But it would be it would be a very intentional thing.

574
00:44:38,573 --> 00:44:43,636
Um, versus, you know, 15 years ago, I you think growth is cool.

575
00:44:43,636 --> 00:44:46,097
That that's that's what it that's what I thought.

576
00:44:47,859 --> 00:44:53,649
With AI now in the mix in a significant way, what's your what will your next hire be?

577
00:44:56,085 --> 00:45:08,732
ah Someone that um someone that understands design and technology and could approach it
fairly balanced.

578
00:45:08,732 --> 00:45:24,020
So um basically someone who has elements of design and user experience architecture and
someone who also has a general understanding of code.

579
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:25,641
Um

580
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:30,725
There's like there's hybrid stuff going on right now where I think we're gonna have to
like

581
00:45:32,807 --> 00:45:37,599
rethink titles in the not so near future and and responsibilities.

582
00:45:37,599 --> 00:45:46,473
So I like the idea of more like T-shaped individuals that are like fairly legitimate in
two things.

583
00:45:46,473 --> 00:45:50,804
Like you don't need to be an expert in eight things, but like give me fairly legitimate in
two.

584
00:45:50,804 --> 00:45:54,126
Um so I I'm looking for that right now.

585
00:45:54,126 --> 00:46:01,885
Um whether it's design and tech, whether it's, you know, strategy and creative, whether
it's strategy and tech.

586
00:46:01,885 --> 00:46:04,089
So it's it's a it's kind of a mixture.

587
00:46:04,089 --> 00:46:06,033
Management and something else.

588
00:46:06,033 --> 00:46:06,823
So

589
00:46:07,487 --> 00:46:10,820
How do you approach competitiveness in your field?

590
00:46:10,820 --> 00:46:19,567
Like do do you take your eighty and ninety person firm and do you have a competitive angle
or bent or advantage over a twenty five hundred person firm?

591
00:46:19,567 --> 00:46:20,548
Or do you even think of that?

592
00:46:20,548 --> 00:46:21,929
What's your approach?

593
00:46:22,569 --> 00:46:34,942
Yeah, I mean, whenever you're going into a pitch and you understand who you're competing
against, I always I always spin our our advantage um in that situation and our

594
00:46:34,942 --> 00:46:35,722
disadvantage.

595
00:46:35,722 --> 00:46:42,799
I love basically going in and saying, Here's why you should work with us and here's where
we're not a fit.

596
00:46:44,445 --> 00:46:57,413
I have found that talking about your inefficiencies and why you wouldn't select my company
um actually helps answer a ton of questions and concerns on the other side of the table.

597
00:46:57,413 --> 00:47:00,175
Um and it very rarely backfires.

598
00:47:00,175 --> 00:47:05,418
And if it does, you're literally saying, if you want this, don't hire us.

599
00:47:05,418 --> 00:47:06,628
And they're like, I want that.

600
00:47:06,628 --> 00:47:08,169
So I'm like, that don't hire us.

601
00:47:08,169 --> 00:47:10,121
That's that's it wasn't a fit.

602
00:47:10,121 --> 00:47:11,081
And I can't I can't

603
00:47:11,081 --> 00:47:13,189
It'd be a disaster four months later.

604
00:47:13,533 --> 00:47:13,973
Yeah.

605
00:47:13,973 --> 00:47:20,337
So I don't want to like try and sugarcoat things or spin a false narrative just to win the
business.

606
00:47:20,337 --> 00:47:22,638
I'm all about making sure we can deliver.

607
00:47:22,638 --> 00:47:25,960
When we're in a pitch, like that's that's what I get most excited about.

608
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,232
It's like, can we like we we we can crush this, right?

609
00:47:29,232 --> 00:47:33,024
And one of my teams like, yeah, like this is right in the sweet spot.

610
00:47:33,024 --> 00:47:41,529
I I wanna go in with like the most bravado I can about just how confident we are that like
we can deliver this.

611
00:47:41,905 --> 00:47:48,665
And the ideas will be there, but more importantly, the execution will be such a layup and
you won't have to worry about anything.

612
00:47:50,065 --> 00:47:56,005
Is going into a pitch the same as an interview and I'm gonna ask it if that's a quick
answer, I'm gonna f ask a follow up question.

613
00:47:56,531 --> 00:47:57,488
It is, yeah.

614
00:47:58,645 --> 00:48:02,835
How would you interview now being the 41-year-old John?

615
00:48:02,835 --> 00:48:05,199
Imagine being interviewed for a job.

616
00:48:05,241 --> 00:48:07,325
What would what would be your approach?

617
00:48:08,186 --> 00:48:09,712
I if I ever had to

618
00:48:12,029 --> 00:48:20,053
I mean I I I can't not be myself and I can't speak I have to speak my mind and be honest
and if I don't like something I would say it.

619
00:48:20,053 --> 00:48:24,176
Um I have very clear boundaries in terms of like what I will and will not do.

620
00:48:24,176 --> 00:48:25,396
so

621
00:48:28,957 --> 00:48:29,572
What do you mean by that?

622
00:48:29,572 --> 00:48:32,220
Very clear, but and what do you what you will and what you won't do?

623
00:48:33,051 --> 00:48:47,625
Uh whether it's um like work I don't feel like doing anymore, like whether it's the type
of work or um like someone dictating too many rules about how I how I do my work.

624
00:48:47,625 --> 00:48:48,765
I don't want any of that.

625
00:48:48,765 --> 00:48:58,628
Um a work life balance, like I'm not just gonna like randomly ping pong the world for no
reason unless I have a reason to do it and I wanna do it because I I value like watching

626
00:48:58,628 --> 00:49:00,949
my my my daughter grow up.

627
00:49:00,949 --> 00:49:01,555
Um

628
00:49:01,555 --> 00:49:06,210
So I have boundaries and um I also have like I know what I can deliver.

629
00:49:06,210 --> 00:49:10,534
So if if I'm not a fit for someone, then I'm not a fit for someone.

630
00:49:10,534 --> 00:49:14,116
But hopefully I don't have to do that anytime soon.

631
00:49:14,214 --> 00:49:17,116
Yeah, right when I asked the question, you're like, I can't imagine this.

632
00:49:17,373 --> 00:49:18,898
No, it would be terrible.

633
00:49:20,287 --> 00:49:21,903
Are you almost unemployable then?

634
00:49:21,903 --> 00:49:24,018
Hopeful have this job forever?

635
00:49:25,353 --> 00:49:28,616
I would if I yeah, I would just start a bunch of other things.

636
00:49:29,278 --> 00:49:35,545
I would just I would I have I would I would I would do a bunch of different things to uh
to make ends meet.

637
00:49:35,545 --> 00:49:46,139
But I think it would be funny to work at like if some I would I mean I'm not saying I'm
unemployable, but maybe maybe close.

638
00:49:46,139 --> 00:49:46,869
You'd find out.

639
00:49:46,869 --> 00:49:57,505
Um, there was there's these shows on TV where they'll place extremely successful people, I
forget what it was called, but they'll drop them in a city and say you have like seven

640
00:49:57,505 --> 00:49:59,536
days to make a million dollars.

641
00:49:59,536 --> 00:50:04,339
And what that is, is that's basically saying, what would you do as a startup tomorrow if
you did it again?

642
00:50:04,339 --> 00:50:12,774
So let's say this gig ended, the marketing branding agency, the game's over, but you're a
serial entrepreneur and you're like, I have to start something else, like you just said.

643
00:50:12,774 --> 00:50:14,475
What would you do?

644
00:50:14,475 --> 00:50:15,381
What what would you do?

645
00:50:15,381 --> 00:50:19,154
Well, 'cause there's such a high failure rate in starting businesses.

646
00:50:19,571 --> 00:50:19,844
Yeah.

647
00:50:19,844 --> 00:50:21,365
uh

648
00:50:21,365 --> 00:50:25,678
I'm assuming really quick, you would do a lot of things to make sure that you succeeded in
one.

649
00:50:25,678 --> 00:50:27,021
So what would that look like?

650
00:50:27,775 --> 00:50:30,366
Well, the boring answer is like you can I can consult.

651
00:50:30,366 --> 00:50:45,410
Um I would I can I I I think like being able to quickly provide recommendations, ideas,
whether it's how to operationalize and fix an actual business and how it runs, or

652
00:50:45,730 --> 00:50:47,698
marketing and advertising and strategy services.

653
00:50:47,698 --> 00:50:49,321
I think I c I mean I I can consult.

654
00:50:49,321 --> 00:50:50,571
That's that's boring.

655
00:50:50,571 --> 00:50:55,533
But I I I think more more and more it'd be f I I would want to do like something offline.

656
00:50:55,533 --> 00:50:56,873
Um

657
00:50:57,031 --> 00:51:06,928
So, you know, I talked to my f I my my friends, my wife, we we were talking about doing
like a frozen yogurt store, um, just because we thought it would be fun.

658
00:51:07,128 --> 00:51:11,852
And it to me, it no matter what happens in the world, people need dessert.

659
00:51:11,852 --> 00:51:16,305
So um I I I think like something like that could be very fun.

660
00:51:16,305 --> 00:51:18,178
Um so I I don't know.

661
00:51:18,178 --> 00:51:25,461
I I I think that like there's just a lot of opportunity, no matter what, in the world to
do

662
00:51:25,587 --> 00:51:27,977
do stuff to make money as long as you approach it correctly.

663
00:51:27,977 --> 00:51:31,036
Um, so who knows?

664
00:51:31,533 --> 00:51:33,013
So let's get a final question.

665
00:51:33,013 --> 00:51:41,236
Great conversation today, but a final from John, the CEO of Wondersauce, the brilliant guy
who joined us with great energy today.

666
00:51:41,876 --> 00:51:46,927
There's an idea out here if you find the thing that you love, you'll never have to work
another day in your life.

667
00:51:46,927 --> 00:51:49,318
Okay.

668
00:51:50,318 --> 00:51:51,539
I know what I believe about it.

669
00:51:51,539 --> 00:52:00,041
I'm going restrain from what I believe about that to ask you your idea and your approach
with that idea and combining it what happiness means.

670
00:52:01,117 --> 00:52:07,921
And if that's a relevant thing to aspire to or worthwhile.

671
00:52:08,935 --> 00:52:09,335
Yeah.

672
00:52:09,335 --> 00:52:12,167
'Cause we spend a lot of time in our life working.

673
00:52:12,387 --> 00:52:17,591
So if if you're going to work, you should try and be happy.

674
00:52:17,851 --> 00:52:27,978
And you should not chase something because it's you know, it's lucrative if you hate it.

675
00:52:28,138 --> 00:52:33,561
So I think it's the it's a cliche saying, but it's so true.

676
00:52:33,642 --> 00:52:38,665
Do s if if you if you are doing something that you really enjoy, it is not gonna feel

677
00:52:39,023 --> 00:52:40,256
as much like work.

678
00:52:40,256 --> 00:52:41,199
It's still work.

679
00:52:41,199 --> 00:52:42,709
Let's be honest.

680
00:52:42,709 --> 00:52:43,420
See, there you go.

681
00:52:43,420 --> 00:52:45,043
There there's the new work.

682
00:52:45,715 --> 00:52:46,386
Yeah, it'd still work.

683
00:52:46,386 --> 00:52:48,167
Like I would rather be golfing.

684
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:50,450
And I'm okay saying that.

685
00:52:50,450 --> 00:52:55,415
I would rather be at a Yankee game than pitching business.

686
00:52:55,415 --> 00:52:57,447
Is that is that like a crime to say?

687
00:52:58,869 --> 00:52:59,559
It shouldn't be.

688
00:52:59,559 --> 00:53:00,350
It shouldn't be.

689
00:53:00,350 --> 00:53:09,196
And I think the narrative that some of these people who have become billionaires, that I
give them, man, I give them all their flowers about the receipts they have and say, you

690
00:53:09,196 --> 00:53:13,259
made a big impact in the world and you were influential on something really big.

691
00:53:13,259 --> 00:53:21,565
But to be so disingenuous to make that statement, where if there was someone sitting there
asking you if you ever had days at work where it felt like work.

692
00:53:21,565 --> 00:53:29,822
If you ever think about the deepest, darkest days when you were facing elimination and the
company was thriving where credit lines weren't there and banks are calling notes, those

693
00:53:29,822 --> 00:53:31,693
things happen frequently.

694
00:53:32,147 --> 00:53:32,838
Yeah.

695
00:53:32,838 --> 00:53:37,421
And it means why my hair was gray when I was twenty nine years old.

696
00:53:37,442 --> 00:53:39,523
Like it's work.

697
00:53:39,523 --> 00:53:40,945
It's stressful.

698
00:53:40,945 --> 00:53:46,770
As I I've had moments of like immense joy and happiness doing this.

699
00:53:46,770 --> 00:53:53,855
But I've also had the opposite end of the spectrum of like fear, pain, and ongoing stress.

700
00:53:54,616 --> 00:53:55,857
That's life.

701
00:53:57,705 --> 00:53:58,326
Yeah.

702
00:53:58,326 --> 00:54:05,113
So what where do we wrap that as find something you love and you'll never w you wouldn't
make that statement then.

703
00:54:05,113 --> 00:54:07,665
Then you'll never feel like you're working a day in your life.

704
00:54:07,665 --> 00:54:09,257
Like you wouldn't make that statement.

705
00:54:09,257 --> 00:54:18,223
I think as a general statement, it's it's okay to say because I think that like every
aspect of life has those those polar swings, right?

706
00:54:18,223 --> 00:54:24,668
Like you could not work and still have fear, joy, stress, all this stuff, right?

707
00:54:24,668 --> 00:54:26,829
So it's not completely tied to work.

708
00:54:26,829 --> 00:54:35,836
So the way I see it is just like if you're doing something that you love, more often than
not, you're gonna get out of the bed with with the right intention.

709
00:54:35,836 --> 00:54:38,111
And that is what's most important.

710
00:54:38,111 --> 00:54:41,871
You're gonna put yourself in a position to have more good days than bad days.

711
00:54:41,871 --> 00:54:45,027
And I think that's all you can ask for in life in any aspect of it.

712
00:54:45,461 --> 00:54:45,963
All right.

713
00:54:45,963 --> 00:54:47,627
So to wrap this up, here's what we wanna know.

714
00:54:47,627 --> 00:54:49,832
We wanna know what John loves.

715
00:54:51,079 --> 00:55:01,683
I love interacting with different people and hearing what makes people tick and get
excited and mad and all that stuff and I've uh I've made a profession out of it.

716
00:55:03,634 --> 00:55:05,656
Never an argument in your entire brain, huh?

717
00:55:05,656 --> 00:55:07,156
That's ever happened.

718
00:55:08,298 --> 00:55:11,039
Hey man, thanks for joining us all the way from New York City, man.

719
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:12,180
Great conversation.

720
00:55:12,180 --> 00:55:14,542
Thanks for highlighting what you do, why you do it, your businesses.

721
00:55:14,542 --> 00:55:19,205
I think very valuable today and it's great to great to sit down with you for an hour and
get to know you.

722
00:55:19,465 --> 00:55:20,141
Yeah, same here.

723
00:55:20,141 --> 00:55:21,301
Thanks a Mark.

724
00:55:21,301 --> 00:55:22,232
Thank you, ma'am.