#193 - Hiring Is Broken: How to Attract Top Talent in 2026 | Ryan Hogan

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There's three things that are really needed inside of any organization or for any, any
like entrepreneur or business leader.

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Number one is a business coach.

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Number two is a peer group.

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And then the third thing is some sort of framework.

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EOS like changed my life.

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Welcome back to another awesome podcast.

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And what you know about the necessary entrepreneur is when we're doing virtuals, it's all
happening on one day.

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So welcome back to our Thursday, whenever this comes out.

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But I'm pumped about today's guest.

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It's Ryan Hogan.

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Why I appreciate him in the beginning.

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Number one, we came on and I said, man, your audio is on point.

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Thank you.

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But number two, he has an easy name to pronounce.

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Sometimes names are tough.

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So Ryan Hogan, thank your parents for giving you an easy name.

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um

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He's a serial entrepreneur, a CEO and a former Navy officer who has built scaled and
transformed companies in deeply operational environments.

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Ryan's co-founded Hunt a Killer.

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What a cool name.

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A subscription based mystery game company that has become one of the fastest growing
consumer product brands in America.

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After identifying a systemic gap in how leadership and talent are deployed in growth stage
organizations, Ryan founded Talent Harbor.

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It's a firm focused on strategic talent solutions

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for rapidly scaling businesses.

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And if there's more, there is.

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What he does is he blends military discipline, founder grit, and people-centered
leadership in a way that reveals what it really takes to lead teams, scale culture, and

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operate with clarity in complex environments.

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Ryan, welcome to The Necessary Entrepreneur.

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Can you, can you come on and do all my intros?

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like I'll just, whatever I'm doing, you'll come in and do them.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah, man, absolutely.

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think I use this often, this self-deprecation move that I use.

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One day I may stop doing it, but know, Toby Keith's not with us anymore.

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I'm not just a country music fan, but you know, the song inside the song, I'm not as good
as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was.

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So if this is acceptable, I don't know if I could reproduce it, but man, I'm pumped about
having you on.

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The great energy that you have, us just getting to know each other, but you have such
breadth in what you've done.

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you know, from this experience of being in the military, but then scaling these businesses
and I call it a serial entrepreneur.

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Sometimes that's not the best connotation, but when you're scaling and building legitimate
things, it is.

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So I'm pumped to let you share with us what you've learned, talk about your current
business.

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But I think we're going to have a well-rounded conversation on what entrepreneurship used
to be, what it looks like to scale and sell, but then what it is in this fast evolving,

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growing technological environment.

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So

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I'm pumped to have you on,

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Yeah, no, I think we'll have some, some like great tidbits.

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Cause like one of things that's not in that intro is the bankruptcy.

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And that's like, you know, that's really, that was real lessons learned at the lowest
point in my life.

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And so we can cover a variety of topics.

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Yeah, what do you do with that then?

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mean, we attribute those when we're going through moments like that, it's massive failure
in every way in our brains, right?

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It's the ego death.

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It's what people were worried about.

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What people think about us.

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It's we fought so long and the dream didn't come to fruition for some reason.

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How do you look back on that moment now?

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Yeah.

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I love what you just said there where it's like the, ego death.

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And when I look at, kind of like who I am just as a human today versus then, like I had
this weird thing because I, started off enlisted.

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flew in the back of MH 53 echo helicopters.

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And then I went through this commissioning program, eventually became an officer, drove
ships for a few years.

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And now I'm the CEO of the unit out of Spokane, Washington.

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I'm actually flying out tonight to go do drill weekend.

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So 25 years of, of active duty experience.

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My first exposure to an organization was there's enlisted and there are officers and like,
those are the two types of people and officers had to be a certain thing, put on a certain

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face.

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And then there were enlisted that, that got the work done.

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Um, and so my first company, like I had this, I would, it was a zombie infested five K
obstacle course race company.

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So like the craziest, weirdest company you could imagine.

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And I would come in every day in a suit and.

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There was no rhyme or reason.

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I thought that's like who I had to be.

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That's, I thought that's how I had to show up.

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And it really took the, the bankruptcy and like the ultimate failure to be like, dude, you
just show up as a human and care about people and invest in their personal and

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professional life.

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and like the rewards from that are, it go far beyond the growth and the things that they
do for the organization.

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Um, you know, but for me that it was a very, very low moment.

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I think when people hear bankruptcy.

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When it went public, it was like, I'm so sorry for you, Ryan.

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And the reality is bankruptcy is, actually the easiest part.

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It after bankruptcy, everything goes silent.

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And what people don't see it's the 12 to 18 months leading up to the bankruptcy where
you're trying to sell the company.

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You're personally guaranteeing everything.

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You're, constantly raising money.

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You're doing all of these things because you have such as deep belief in the company.

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And you know, once it all goes away, it's a pretty hard, it's a pretty hard pill to
swallow.

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Is that because I'm not even saying this is bad.

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it because em our ego gets tied up in the current thing we're doing all the time?

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I think if you haven't experienced the like the ultimate failure or a failure of a
magnitude like that, yes.

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So my first company that didn't really scale, but the first one where we really put energy
into it, we raised some money, went out and bought $200,000 in t-shirts.

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And I had boxes in my two car garage going up to the ceiling.

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And I was like, if you build it, they will come.

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Nobody came and those t-shirts didn't sell.

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And that's why the zombie event came because I needed a way to move the t-shirts, but with
war, where, and then even with run for your lives, like the business was kind of my baby.

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Meaning like I was attached to the concept.

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I was attached to the idea and I had a lot of, a lot of emotion invested into like what we
were actually doing.

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The rebirth post bankruptcy.

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I don't, I don't care what we're doing.

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And what's interesting is like, and I'm sure we'll talk about hunt to killer a little bit.

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The most common question I get today is like, how do go from hunt to killer this like sexy
consumer brand doing really cool things to talent acquisition?

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And my response is simple.

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Like my passion has nothing to do with the, product or services that we're in.

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It has to do with the people that are inside of the organization solving hard problems
every day.

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So, um, yes, I think that is a short answer.

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Yes.

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I think it's a very hard thing.

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Yeah, and I guess it's a reset of what our identity means to us, Yeah.

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Yeah, like, and that's what I preach nowadays is like your, identity cannot be tied into
the brand.

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Like your identity cannot be the company.

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You have to understand what it is that you want out of life, what you want to accomplish.

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The business is just a vehicle.

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The only thing that business does is help you achieve whatever it is that you're trying to
achieve in life.

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And, you know, pre

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Pre-bankruptcy, that wasn't it.

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My only goal in life was that brand.

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My identity were those brands, ah but there was a fundamental shift after.

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Yeah.

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So, know, now this subscription model hunt a killer.

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Like we might jump all over the place.

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You know, sometime on podcast, goes from A to Z.

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I'm not an A to Z.

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We take the conversation right where, where it takes us.

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So that you start hunt, hunt, hunt a killer.

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It's not about, yeah, they haven't moved beyond the question yet about how are you this or
that?

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You're like, no, 2AM is a human.

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I'm going to take this human to whatever I do, whether I show up in the Navy on my
weekends.

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whether I start a company and it scales, right?

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I figured out what I'm doing, what my direction is, what did, then, honey killer, was
there a period of 12 to 18 months that you were scaling your personal growth, your own

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mindset as a leader?

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What happened in the 12 to 18 months?

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I just know from my past, those moments were so critical.

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What did it teach you about the community you were building, about retaining customers,
about...

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building equity inside the company from people feeling like they have ownership and a
sense of belonging.

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That 12 to 18 months I've found in my past, I learned the most in those moments.

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So it doesn't have to be your moment, but was that similar?

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Yeah, it was.

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And what's interesting is that there's probably two different 12 to 18 month periods for
me.

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And number one was post bankruptcy.

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And there was 12 to 18 months of like rebuilding who I was and trying to figure out like,
what do I want out of life?

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Who do I want to be?

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And that, that happened, and this sounds maybe a bit weird, but that happened through
journaling.

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One of the most amazing things that I discovered is like writing, not necessarily for
other people, but just writing for yourself and putting thoughts on paper or in today's

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environment on an iPad.

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the therapeutic outcome of that exercise was life-changing for me.

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And then with the 12 to 18 months, like once it was three years later, we launched a hunt
a killer and we had a similar philosophy, which was let's do a live event again, because

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we had just got done scaling run for your lives.

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That went from zero to about 6 million in 18 to 24 months.

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And then ultimately just crashed.

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But that's what we knew.

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So three years I was like writing and rebuilding and just kind of like figuring out who I
am in this, in this world.

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And then we launched, we launched Hunt a Killer and Hunt a Killer was the same sort of
thing of like, our event or our backgrounds are in events.

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So let's launch this as an event.

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And so initially it was, it was a live event.

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We transformed a 200 acre campground into a living crime scene and it was great, except we
couldn't scale it.

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And so like the very first thing was with run for your lives, we could put 15, 20,000
people through an obstacle course race in any given weekend with hunt a killer.

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We had to cap it at 600 people because you can't have a thousand people standing around a
fake crime scene, trying to investigate and interrogate suspects.

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And this was like some of the biggest transformations, which is we weren't attached to
the, to the business.

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And that allowed us to see things completely different.

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So it wasn't like, Hey, how do we do more events or how do we, how do we like, you know,
take the events and scale the events?

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It's like, Hey, we found product market fit.

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have something that people want.

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And what is that?

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We have armchair detectives.

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We've got this community of people that love solving crimes.

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Um, how can we develop a different product for them?

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And so that's, we pivoted in the subscription box, literally one day after the first
event, first event we spent a year putting together, I think we made like 10,000 bucks.

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I had a partner in it and so it'd be like 5,000 bucks for a year's worth of work.

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Like, like we're not going to be able to quit our day jobs.

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And we pivoted, like no questions asked, no emotional ties to like, this needs to be an
event company.

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And we got into subscription box and that was, that was history.

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Cause like after that, it was zero to 55 million at six years.

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But it wasn't like, wasn't like subscription box only, it was this constant evolution and
evaluation of like, where can we take this and what do we want to achieve?

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Yeah.

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So what, um, what do you do now with this entrepreneurial brain that's learned all the
hard lessons?

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What, what do you do?

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Do you create one idea at a time, stay focused on that, scale it, turn it over to other
people, maybe have an exit and do it again.

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Do you do that?

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Or do you have multiple systems operating at the same time?

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Mark, you're, you're asking a question right now that I am addressing in real time.

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Um, because for me, like I think where I bring the most value in organizations is zero to
one.

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Um, I can get it probably from one to three at that point.

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And obviously hunt to killer got very big.

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had an incredible leadership team around me that, that really helped kind of open up doors
that I wouldn't have been able to on my own.

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Um, but really like me being able to find product market fit as fast as humanly possible.

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And then getting out of the way is.

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kind of what I've been processing over the last probably three years.

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Um, but a lot of this is happening in real time, meaning that like the company, um, that I
co-founded called talent Harbor, like we are scaling very fast right now.

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And every month, like I'm thinking to myself, like, when, when do I need to step aside?

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Because I, my personality is great for pre-product market fit.

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It may be a little bit past that past that it becomes destructive because I need problems
to solve.

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And if there's no problems, then I wound up creating problems or like pushing the
organization past its, it's tipping point.

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um, you know, my hypothesis right now is, is I do a podcast and I've got all these other
things and I'm trying to figure out how to pour my energy into those things and then have

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that energy kind of go across different organizations.

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So you're talking about knowing oneself.

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Yeah, it's only taken 41 years, but we're still working on it every day.

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I was in Atlanta last week.

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I went to a conference with a friend of mine and for his organization and went to lunch
before I was flying out.

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And some of the guys that summer, his close networking group friends, Hey, we go to lunch
with us.

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I was like, guys, yeah, let me push you.

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We're back and all this stuff.

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And they were walking out there like, Hey, are you going to join his thing?

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And I went, what do you mean?

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Join this thing.

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And they're well, you're going to join the thing.

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I said, guys, I don't know how to say this, but I've had this revelation recently.

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I break things.

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And people that are around me, I'm positive.

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I'm very optimistic.

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bring massive energy to the thing.

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I believe we can do things far beyond what we've probably dreamt and envisioned.

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But I don't stop.

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Right.

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And so as you said that I went, I think this is what he's talking about.

213
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,702
And I even felt bad about myself.

214
00:14:15,702 --> 00:14:16,222
had a moment.

215
00:14:16,222 --> 00:14:19,665
It's like, man, I, I don't, I build things, but I did.

216
00:14:19,665 --> 00:14:22,066
saw his organization he's building and

217
00:14:22,102 --> 00:14:26,547
I will see the smallest micro improvements that can be made and I will challenge those.

218
00:14:27,149 --> 00:14:33,035
And the system isn't ready for that level of massive impact every day.

219
00:14:35,358 --> 00:14:36,760
You got to let it breathe.

220
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:45,006
I've done, ah I went to war college about three years ago and did all the personality
assessments and everything as a part of one of their programs.

221
00:14:45,006 --> 00:14:50,611
ah But just this week I re did a disc assessment and I got debriefed on it.

222
00:14:50,611 --> 00:14:52,913
ah And what was interesting.

223
00:14:52,913 --> 00:14:56,086
So I'm very high in the DI very, very low on the SC.

224
00:14:56,086 --> 00:14:58,097
And I don't know.

225
00:14:58,358 --> 00:15:03,302
I don't know what all of these things mean, but the, feedback that I got was.

226
00:15:03,768 --> 00:15:09,721
High D and high I are incredible for organizations only for a certain period of time.

227
00:15:09,721 --> 00:15:11,502
And otherwise they become destructive.

228
00:15:11,502 --> 00:15:14,123
uh And so you're absolutely right.

229
00:15:14,123 --> 00:15:17,445
Like we made mistakes last year with, with talent Harbor.

230
00:15:17,445 --> 00:15:22,978
So, you know, our, our core issue right now is that we've got this unique model where it's
subscription based.

231
00:15:22,978 --> 00:15:27,210
took subscription from, uh, from, uh, hunt a killer.

232
00:15:27,438 --> 00:15:30,038
And we said, Hey, let's move that, move that into business service world.

233
00:15:30,038 --> 00:15:31,738
Hunter killer spent like a million bucks on recruiting.

234
00:15:31,738 --> 00:15:33,478
I was like, what a stupid industry.

235
00:15:33,478 --> 00:15:36,438
Sorry if there's any recovering recruit or current recruiters out there.

236
00:15:36,438 --> 00:15:43,817
Um, but like there's ways to do things differently in an industry that has not
historically changed over the last 50 or 60 years.

237
00:15:43,817 --> 00:15:53,158
Um, but our biggest issue, which isn't like no, no, uh, no surprise is that like our
clients don't stay with us for the longterm.

238
00:15:53,158 --> 00:15:55,658
Once we find them a role, then they put their account on pause.

239
00:15:55,658 --> 00:15:57,464
So we have this constant churn.

240
00:15:57,464 --> 00:16:04,088
And we were trying to solve for this last year and we, we layered in staffing and I was
like, listen, we're just going to use the same machine we have right now.

241
00:16:04,088 --> 00:16:11,121
And we're just going to layer in staffing and like, you know, the amazing recruiting that
we do, we can just translate that into, into some sort of staffing model.

242
00:16:11,141 --> 00:16:16,704
And like, almost broke the organization last year because the organization was not ready
for that.

243
00:16:16,814 --> 00:16:20,116
and like, do we get into that or do we like solve the churn issue and all those things?

244
00:16:20,116 --> 00:16:26,130
We will eventually, but like we need to get the systems and people and all these different
things in place.

245
00:16:26,130 --> 00:16:27,148
um

246
00:16:27,148 --> 00:16:30,572
you know, before a knucklehead like me brings in a hundred good ideas.

247
00:16:30,572 --> 00:16:31,642
Yeah, right.

248
00:16:31,963 --> 00:16:39,269
I heard somebody, I don't know if it was Jeff Bezos or somebody spoke to this and he said,
man, I'll have a hundred great ideas all the time.

249
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:43,332
And someone in the organization, someone on his board said, yeah, that's the problem.

250
00:16:43,673 --> 00:16:47,042
We need to, we need to work out the ideas you already had that were great.

251
00:16:47,042 --> 00:16:48,817
I think that's what we're sitting here talking about.

252
00:16:48,817 --> 00:16:49,597
Yep.

253
00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:51,887
I don't know if you use a strategy for that.

254
00:16:51,887 --> 00:16:58,489
Like one thing that we've been doing, um, not necessarily since then, but, but, we've been
doing for a while is parking lot.

255
00:16:58,489 --> 00:17:01,801
And so like, if there's something and we're like, Hey, that's got some links.

256
00:17:01,801 --> 00:17:03,331
So we put it the parking lot.

257
00:17:03,331 --> 00:17:08,643
And for, for my brain, at least like, it helps to know that it's in the parking lot.

258
00:17:08,643 --> 00:17:12,885
Like I won't continue to think about it because I know it's captured somewhere and I know
eventually we'll come back.

259
00:17:12,885 --> 00:17:18,287
But if, historically, if I haven't captured it somewhere, then I'm just constantly like,
we should do this.

260
00:17:18,287 --> 00:17:18,948
We should try this.

261
00:17:18,948 --> 00:17:19,638
We should tweak this.

262
00:17:19,638 --> 00:17:20,204
We should.

263
00:17:20,204 --> 00:17:22,520
you know, whatever the case is.

264
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:31,695
So when you hired em your, you don't want to call it recruiting, when you hired, when you
built talent Harbor up, when you launched it is the fundamental problem.

265
00:17:31,695 --> 00:17:38,048
I'll throw it out here since you said, Hey, if there's any recovering recruiters out here,
em but are you trying to solve the problem?

266
00:17:38,048 --> 00:17:39,149
What I've seen from afar?

267
00:17:39,149 --> 00:17:47,474
I have never used a recruiting company one time for my companies because I stood back and
I identified and saw a problem.

268
00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,285
I said, Hey, wait a minute, hold on.

269
00:17:49,285 --> 00:17:52,406
You're bringing candidates based upon resumes.

270
00:17:52,962 --> 00:17:55,243
This company is saying we need them be able to do this.

271
00:17:55,243 --> 00:17:57,234
This is what we expect their education to be.

272
00:17:57,234 --> 00:18:00,186
This is what the past you're hiring based on a resume.

273
00:18:00,186 --> 00:18:06,830
And what I found in my businesses, those resumes now in 2026, they don't translate.

274
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:17,616
And, and so what I've consistently saw was, okay, let's say somebody makes $220,000 a year
as whatever position that recruiting company is incentivized to place someone.

275
00:18:17,967 --> 00:18:20,610
they're not, they're not incentivized.

276
00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:27,553
for what the performance looks like over five or 10 years.

277
00:18:27,553 --> 00:18:33,736
I've never even talked about this because I'm not insulting people in their business, but
they make huge commissions.

278
00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:39,699
These recruiters are making 75 or 100 % of the first year salary in these situations from
what I saw.

279
00:18:39,699 --> 00:18:47,608
And I went, hold on, companies, all of us, if you find someone that's gonna be integral in
my company, that is gonna perform the functions.

280
00:18:47,608 --> 00:18:53,002
but that's also going to be this cultural fit and help us lift up the company and grow and
be here for a decade.

281
00:18:53,002 --> 00:18:56,845
I'll give you a two year salary if you could guarantee me those outcomes.

282
00:18:56,846 --> 00:18:59,117
And what I, what I found though, I talked to some recruiters.

283
00:18:59,117 --> 00:19:00,708
I want to hand it back to you.

284
00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:06,393
Here's the thing that was really nasty and dirty that really irritated me that I found out
about the business.

285
00:19:07,494 --> 00:19:11,077
They keep that person that they placed in the job.

286
00:19:11,077 --> 00:19:14,880
They keep them in their pipeline for other positions too.

287
00:19:15,441 --> 00:19:17,536
And I went, that is.

288
00:19:17,536 --> 00:19:18,847
unacceptable.

289
00:19:20,524 --> 00:19:27,407
So the cultural thing about like, is this the right human to come work at this company?

290
00:19:27,489 --> 00:19:28,390
So.

291
00:19:28,952 --> 00:19:29,393
Yeah.

292
00:19:29,393 --> 00:19:30,004
uh

293
00:19:30,004 --> 00:19:34,398
You just listen like number one, uh love you as the hype man.

294
00:19:34,398 --> 00:19:38,261
And then number two, if I could just bring you in on all my sales pitches, like that would
be great too.

295
00:19:38,261 --> 00:19:40,593
At this point, you just, that's it.

296
00:19:40,593 --> 00:19:42,765
Like the recruiting industry is broken.

297
00:19:42,765 --> 00:19:49,951
When, when you start to think about contingent based recruiting, regardless of the
percentage, but let's just look at contingent based business model recruiting where the

298
00:19:49,951 --> 00:19:52,873
recruiter does not get paid unless they place.

299
00:19:53,814 --> 00:19:58,754
Incentives are not aligned or interests are not aligned at that point because

300
00:19:58,754 --> 00:20:04,377
When a recruiter comes in, just because you sold or you signed a contract, that doesn't
mean they've closed you.

301
00:20:04,377 --> 00:20:10,169
What they're, they are salespeople and what they're trying to do is close one of their
three.

302
00:20:10,169 --> 00:20:10,929
Usually it's three.

303
00:20:10,929 --> 00:20:20,363
What'll happen is they'll go to market very quickly, collect three resumes, give you
three, and then they start selling you on why one of those three is the best candidate

304
00:20:20,363 --> 00:20:24,625
that you've ever seen because they don't get paid until you actually hire.

305
00:20:24,625 --> 00:20:26,486
And the other problem here is

306
00:20:26,764 --> 00:20:31,678
only about 50 % of the searches they do, do they actually make a placement?

307
00:20:31,678 --> 00:20:39,134
And so what you're doing with that huge retainer is you're subsidizing all the free work
that they did for all their other clients or all the other people that at least signed

308
00:20:39,134 --> 00:20:39,785
contracts.

309
00:20:39,785 --> 00:20:42,177
um The recruiting industry is broken.

310
00:20:42,177 --> 00:20:46,690
There's a fact, you talked a little bit about getting hiring right and getting hiring
wrong.

311
00:20:46,771 --> 00:20:50,764
The reason I focused so much on the model is because all the recruiters say the same
thing.

312
00:20:50,764 --> 00:20:55,342
It doesn't mean that they're all the same level, but let's just assume that they were.

313
00:20:55,342 --> 00:20:57,282
And that recruiting is a commodity.

314
00:20:57,282 --> 00:21:00,962
It's not, but it's very hard to go into an organization with like, we're better.

315
00:21:00,962 --> 00:21:01,402
Why?

316
00:21:01,402 --> 00:21:02,522
Because this is our process.

317
00:21:02,522 --> 00:21:03,722
Well, that's what the last shop said.

318
00:21:03,722 --> 00:21:04,062
Okay.

319
00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:07,582
Well then we've got a different model that actually aligns interests.

320
00:21:07,582 --> 00:21:08,482
So believe us there.

321
00:21:08,482 --> 00:21:11,482
And then if you like us, we know, obviously know you'll come back to us.

322
00:21:11,482 --> 00:21:15,502
But when I've gotten hiring wrong in the past, it's, it's not because I couldn't read a
resume.

323
00:21:15,502 --> 00:21:17,722
It's because I brought in the wrong human.

324
00:21:17,722 --> 00:21:21,642
They were not aligned with the core values or core behaviors of the organization.

325
00:21:21,642 --> 00:21:24,022
And that's 50 % of the battle.

326
00:21:24,022 --> 00:21:24,908
So when.

327
00:21:24,908 --> 00:21:32,676
When recruiters are going out there, if they're not asking you like, what are your core
values and what are some of the actions and decisions that actually exhibit that core

328
00:21:32,676 --> 00:21:33,046
value?

329
00:21:33,046 --> 00:21:35,149
And they're not diving deep into that.

330
00:21:35,149 --> 00:21:44,128
All they're doing is just going to indeed LinkedIn, grabbing a few resumes and then trying
to collect a quick 50 grand, um you know, for sending them or forwarding them to you.

331
00:21:44,312 --> 00:21:47,731
Do you like the best dating app for recruiting?

332
00:21:47,768 --> 00:21:51,880
Basically, basically it's so funny you say that because I'm not a recruiter.

333
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,852
Like I, I know, I know what's wrong with the industry, but I am by no stretch of
recruiter.

334
00:21:56,852 --> 00:21:59,283
Um, I partnered with an amazing recruiter.

335
00:21:59,283 --> 00:22:02,404
So I'm like the, visionary, the business, the strategy.

336
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,346
And she's like, we built an entire proven process around 25 years.

337
00:22:06,406 --> 00:22:07,787
She says what you just said all the time.

338
00:22:07,787 --> 00:22:10,608
She was like, recruiting is basically like a dating service.

339
00:22:10,608 --> 00:22:16,010
Um, and that's, that's the reality is like, you're trying to find the right fit for the
organization.

340
00:22:16,108 --> 00:22:29,451
seems like maybe professional managers obfuscated their responsibility of developing the
organizations and they outsourced it to recruiters and paid them big money versus maybe

341
00:22:29,451 --> 00:22:39,881
taking your SaaS model and letting you give them the best information, the best candidates
to utilize to do the hiring the way that they should be doing it, which should be integral

342
00:22:39,881 --> 00:22:41,842
with what the culture is of their company.

343
00:22:42,158 --> 00:22:42,958
100%.

344
00:22:42,958 --> 00:22:45,841
Like looking at resumes is cheap.

345
00:22:45,982 --> 00:22:53,208
Anybody can look at a resume and say like, Oh, like, do they have this many years
experience in this industry, whether it's the Jason or the actual industry?

346
00:22:53,208 --> 00:22:53,618
Great.

347
00:22:53,618 --> 00:22:53,929
Okay.

348
00:22:53,929 --> 00:23:00,074
This person is qualified, qualified, or qualifying candidates, 10, 15 % of the battle.

349
00:23:00,074 --> 00:23:02,156
Like what questions are you asking?

350
00:23:02,156 --> 00:23:04,278
Do they have the core traits, the core behaviors?

351
00:23:04,278 --> 00:23:05,469
What did they actually accomplish?

352
00:23:05,469 --> 00:23:07,281
Like we focus on sales roles.

353
00:23:07,281 --> 00:23:09,026
And so like, we want to know like,

354
00:23:09,026 --> 00:23:11,137
What did they accomplish at their last organization?

355
00:23:11,137 --> 00:23:12,258
What tools did they use?

356
00:23:12,258 --> 00:23:13,589
What strategies did they use?

357
00:23:13,589 --> 00:23:14,260
Are they a hunter?

358
00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:14,990
Are they a farmer?

359
00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:16,992
Are they used to leads coming to them?

360
00:23:16,992 --> 00:23:18,333
What was the value proposition?

361
00:23:18,333 --> 00:23:19,673
What was their pitch?

362
00:23:19,814 --> 00:23:22,055
Like that is good recruiting.

363
00:23:22,055 --> 00:23:27,499
And the other thing that we haven't talked about is real recruiting is not posting uh on
job boards.

364
00:23:27,499 --> 00:23:37,634
Like that was true both 10 years ago and it's even more true today because what's
happening is that there are like three top platforms for candidates, AI platforms.

365
00:23:37,634 --> 00:23:47,088
They go in, they put their resume, the AI platform looks at the resume, cleans it up, and
then searches all the job boards that are open, that it thinks align, and it'll go out and

366
00:23:47,088 --> 00:23:49,119
apply you to a thousand different jobs.

367
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:55,321
Then you've got companies, same thing, which they've got AI in there, and the AI is
reviewing all these resumes.

368
00:23:55,882 --> 00:23:58,353
Job boards is not where you find talent.

369
00:23:58,353 --> 00:24:04,545
Where you find talent is databases, and then going after, it's called active outreach to
passive candidates.

370
00:24:04,545 --> 00:24:06,646
But once you know what you want,

371
00:24:06,646 --> 00:24:08,989
You go hunt, you go find that person.

372
00:24:08,989 --> 00:24:17,484
Cause that person that, that diamond in the rough is probably not logged into LinkedIn out
of the millions of job descriptions that are out there.

373
00:24:17,484 --> 00:24:21,045
They already have a job and they're doing that job very well for someone else.

374
00:24:21,634 --> 00:24:28,108
That's a hot take and every time I say that online I get like just eviscerated but it's
the reality.

375
00:24:28,238 --> 00:24:29,599
the best hires have come from there.

376
00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:36,373
uh Two years ago, I'm sitting at a Cincinnati Bengals game, some attorneys we do business
with, you know, he's like, hey man, I got an extra ticket.

377
00:24:36,373 --> 00:24:36,823
You want to come?

378
00:24:36,823 --> 00:24:38,283
I was like, sure, I'll come.

379
00:24:38,344 --> 00:24:41,986
And there was a girl that was dating his son that was at the game.

380
00:24:41,986 --> 00:24:43,826
I had never met her before.

381
00:24:44,127 --> 00:24:45,878
After the game, I'm with him for three hours.

382
00:24:45,878 --> 00:24:51,211
After the game, I text him and I said, tell me she's not as talented as I believe she is
as a human.

383
00:24:51,211 --> 00:24:57,074
And he went, dude, if I had a role inside my company right now at hire, and I said, will
you put me in contact with her?

384
00:24:57,674 --> 00:25:00,224
I didn't have a role designed for her when I met her.

385
00:25:00,224 --> 00:25:03,484
I'm just looking for quality people all the time.

386
00:25:04,418 --> 00:25:05,449
That's your job.

387
00:25:05,449 --> 00:25:06,109
That's my job.

388
00:25:06,109 --> 00:25:07,079
That's your job.

389
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:11,940
Art, it's so interesting how we think about recruiting because it's like have a need, need
to go find somebody.

390
00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:21,545
The reality of your nice job is every time we go to a networking event, every time we're
just out in public, we're evaluating people of like, would they be good for the team?

391
00:25:21,545 --> 00:25:23,662
That's great recruiting.

392
00:25:23,662 --> 00:25:24,122
That's it.

393
00:25:24,122 --> 00:25:31,962
so, you know, I'm starting to realize I was in a room about a month ago with one of the
gurus of marketing and all this went to dinner with them, me and eight or nine people, the

394
00:25:31,962 --> 00:25:37,162
guy that was shooting content that night, somebody else had contacted and they brought him
in from Florida.

395
00:25:37,662 --> 00:25:40,942
I saw him, a 27 year old guy, just quality and on fire.

396
00:25:40,942 --> 00:25:42,402
I went, man, that guy's quality.

397
00:25:42,402 --> 00:25:46,162
He just happened to come up to me afterwards and he's like, Hey man, can you tell me a
little more about you?

398
00:25:46,162 --> 00:25:47,862
Like you were one the most impactful people in the room.

399
00:25:47,862 --> 00:25:49,502
Like tell me about what you have going on.

400
00:25:49,502 --> 00:25:51,942
And we sit in there and we're talking just so happens.

401
00:25:51,942 --> 00:25:53,422
I'm going to Atlanta for an event.

402
00:25:53,422 --> 00:25:55,362
A week or no, a month later.

403
00:25:55,362 --> 00:25:56,162
And I reached out to him.

404
00:25:56,162 --> 00:25:57,362
like, Hey man, can you come do this?

405
00:25:57,362 --> 00:25:57,962
My team's busy.

406
00:25:57,962 --> 00:25:59,322
You want to, he's like, absolutely.

407
00:25:59,322 --> 00:26:04,822
I'm flying to Miami tonight and I'm flying back tomorrow night looking at this huge led
screen.

408
00:26:04,822 --> 00:26:09,222
I think I'm going to buy for my auditorium and him and his team of AI folks and what
they're building.

409
00:26:09,222 --> 00:26:11,622
They're driving down from lunch from Palm beach.

410
00:26:12,162 --> 00:26:12,702
Right.

411
00:26:12,702 --> 00:26:18,442
What, what do I identify in the room was this guy is talented, but here's what talent is.

412
00:26:18,442 --> 00:26:20,622
It's the way he thinks it's his mindset.

413
00:26:20,622 --> 00:26:22,182
It's the problem solving.

414
00:26:22,182 --> 00:26:23,442
It's the attitude.

415
00:26:23,822 --> 00:26:24,863
It's all the stuff.

416
00:26:24,863 --> 00:26:27,124
And so here's a question I have.

417
00:26:27,986 --> 00:26:31,528
We used to think intelligence was an MBA from Wharton.

418
00:26:31,689 --> 00:26:36,673
We used to think that if you went to an Ivy League school, you're just smarter, you're
better, you're more prepared.

419
00:26:36,673 --> 00:26:38,574
You have the DNA.

420
00:26:38,955 --> 00:26:41,467
What do you think intelligence and smarts really is?

421
00:26:41,467 --> 00:26:43,599
Because I've been talking to people like, are they smart?

422
00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:45,040
I what are you asking me?

423
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:45,791
What is smart?

424
00:26:45,791 --> 00:26:52,156
Because I have my definition of smart and it doesn't align with the way that we used to
give people the smart term.

425
00:26:52,706 --> 00:26:57,900
That's, I mean, when you think about, actually, let me start with this.

426
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,783
Some of the best hires I've ever made had zero college education.

427
00:27:01,783 --> 00:27:02,964
They were just hustlers.

428
00:27:02,964 --> 00:27:04,185
They were just problem solvers.

429
00:27:04,185 --> 00:27:07,258
Like to me, to me, it's about care and effort.

430
00:27:07,258 --> 00:27:12,002
Those are two uh intangible traits that you cannot train for.

431
00:27:12,002 --> 00:27:18,547
You know, if there's some background experience and maybe they have some process, like
maybe that means as an organization, you have to train them a little bit less.

432
00:27:18,547 --> 00:27:22,550
But if they've got care and effort, like whether you have to spend a week, a month.

433
00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:25,567
maybe a few months, like training them and bringing them up the speed.

434
00:27:25,567 --> 00:27:29,488
I would take that all day long over some sort of college degree.

435
00:27:29,588 --> 00:27:35,199
The, the thing with, with degrees is like, one thing it does show is, is like they've put
in the effort.

436
00:27:35,199 --> 00:27:41,361
They've, they've went through the steps, but I never look at like where they went to
school as like their level of intelligence.

437
00:27:41,361 --> 00:27:46,092
It's just like, you know, they put in the effort and they're up there and, and that is
what it is.

438
00:27:46,092 --> 00:27:51,982
But I've never seen that the deciding factor between like a successful hire or an
unsuccessful hire.

439
00:27:51,982 --> 00:27:52,482
Yes.

440
00:27:52,482 --> 00:28:00,782
mean, wouldn't you like somebody in an organization that's been there for five years and
they've consistently improved and received promotions, gone to new levels, built teams

441
00:28:00,782 --> 00:28:06,142
like that's an exact, we're a world practical application of that's what they're going to
do in your business.

442
00:28:07,174 --> 00:28:09,825
What a great point because we were just talking about resumes, right?

443
00:28:09,825 --> 00:28:14,216
And like you're looking for industry experience and you're like, okay, like, do they have
the industry experience?

444
00:28:14,216 --> 00:28:20,158
That's something that most business owners won't look at in the resumes, which is like,
where did they start and where did they finish?

445
00:28:20,158 --> 00:28:21,768
Because that is a very telling thing.

446
00:28:21,768 --> 00:28:23,889
If they were in an organization, let's say they were an account manager.

447
00:28:23,889 --> 00:28:32,561
Um, if they were in an organization for six years and the only title that they carry for
that six years was account manager, like that's going to be one of the first questions I

448
00:28:32,561 --> 00:28:35,514
ask is like, you spent a lot of time in this role.

449
00:28:35,514 --> 00:28:36,172
what?

450
00:28:36,172 --> 00:28:36,713
What happened?

451
00:28:36,713 --> 00:28:37,334
What did you do?

452
00:28:37,334 --> 00:28:38,605
Things like that.

453
00:28:39,127 --> 00:28:44,715
there's so many like micro signals on resumes that you can look for that go far beyond
that.

454
00:28:44,715 --> 00:28:46,058
This was my college.

455
00:28:46,058 --> 00:28:47,089
This was the job.

456
00:28:47,089 --> 00:28:49,452
And these were like the years of those 10 years.

457
00:28:49,452 --> 00:28:49,763
Yeah.

458
00:28:49,763 --> 00:28:57,883
How does this conversation about intelligence, education, experience, how's this line up
with your experience of 25 years in the Navy?

459
00:29:01,772 --> 00:29:02,202
Yeah.

460
00:29:02,202 --> 00:29:08,427
Um, I, I don't know this is going to be the answer that you're looking for.

461
00:29:08,722 --> 00:29:12,411
I do think there needs to be a healthy, a healthy dose of both.

462
00:29:12,411 --> 00:29:15,447
And meaning like, if you look at my military career, I started off enlisted.

463
00:29:15,447 --> 00:29:19,677
I flew in the back of helicopters for the first eight years, got into a commissioning
program.

464
00:29:19,677 --> 00:29:26,623
As a part of that commissioning program, I went, um, to the university of Maryland, went
to the business school there, um, and then got my commissioning.

465
00:29:26,623 --> 00:29:30,606
After that, after that I went to, uh,

466
00:29:30,606 --> 00:29:31,586
Naval War College.

467
00:29:31,586 --> 00:29:33,986
And I spent 10 months in Naval War College getting my masters.

468
00:29:33,986 --> 00:29:40,066
And like, if you were to look, if I ever had a resume, like what you would see in my
resume is like, started as E1.

469
00:29:40,066 --> 00:29:41,206
I was E1 twice, by the way.

470
00:29:41,206 --> 00:29:44,366
That's a story over beers, not necessarily for this podcast.

471
00:29:44,646 --> 00:29:46,326
But I was an E1 twice.

472
00:29:46,326 --> 00:29:47,806
And now I'm an 04.

473
00:29:47,806 --> 00:29:49,366
And so like, there's this career progression.

474
00:29:49,366 --> 00:29:50,126
What did I accomplish?

475
00:29:50,126 --> 00:29:50,646
Where did I start?

476
00:29:50,646 --> 00:29:51,186
Where did I go?

477
00:29:51,186 --> 00:29:54,846
And then speckled all throughout there between the lines is like,

478
00:29:54,914 --> 00:29:57,055
the pursuit of professional development.

479
00:29:57,055 --> 00:30:04,158
Because I think that that is incredibly important when you're looking at a resume or a
candidate or something like that.

480
00:30:04,158 --> 00:30:06,459
Not just like, did they get it?

481
00:30:06,459 --> 00:30:07,500
Did they want it?

482
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:10,161
And did they excel at their last job?

483
00:30:10,161 --> 00:30:12,862
But it's like, are they thirsty for more knowledge?

484
00:30:12,862 --> 00:30:16,143
And are they continuing to develop themselves on a professional level?

485
00:30:16,143 --> 00:30:19,604
That can come through like mastermind groups, Vistage groups.

486
00:30:19,765 --> 00:30:22,956
It can come through any real type of continuing education.

487
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,903
But I do think that there's an importance for having some of those bullet points on a
resume.

488
00:30:29,678 --> 00:30:38,038
So as a part of Talent Harbor, you really base this system on EOS, which is an
entrepreneurial operating system.

489
00:30:38,038 --> 00:30:39,138
Go deep into it.

490
00:30:39,138 --> 00:30:43,238
I mean, there are people that have opinions on EOS all over the place, right?

491
00:30:43,238 --> 00:30:50,698
I'm not somebody who is, we don't operate with any of that framework, but as a part of
EOS, right?

492
00:30:50,698 --> 00:30:55,358
You'll find a lot of the things inside my company, but I haven't embraced the structure in
those areas.

493
00:30:55,358 --> 00:30:57,518
A lot of people who've been on the podcast has.

494
00:30:57,658 --> 00:30:59,426
Give us a high level,

495
00:30:59,426 --> 00:31:01,150
I'm exposure to EOS.

496
00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:02,552
What's your experience?

497
00:31:02,552 --> 00:31:05,979
What you've seen the benefits and then why is Talent Harbor?

498
00:31:05,979 --> 00:31:10,196
Why is it based upon EOS like an US centric organization?

499
00:31:11,566 --> 00:31:19,903
So a lot of this stuff comes out of, comes out of the bankruptcy conversation, which is
there were three kind of, and this is all retrospect.

500
00:31:19,903 --> 00:31:23,346
So I wasn't living in that company saying, these are the three ingredients that I was
missing.

501
00:31:23,346 --> 00:31:31,104
Like this has all been, you know, 10, 12, 15 years of, of a personal and professional
journey to, to come to realize this.

502
00:31:31,104 --> 00:31:37,109
There's three things that are really needed inside of any organization or for any, any
like entrepreneur or business leader.

503
00:31:37,109 --> 00:31:38,846
Number one is a business coach.

504
00:31:38,846 --> 00:31:45,650
Um, it's critical to have someone that can, that can talk to you, tell you like speak the
truth and say things that your team won't tell you.

505
00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:47,472
Number two is a peer group.

506
00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:53,876
So a group of people that have been there, done that, that can help you like find the
minds before you actually step on it.

507
00:31:53,876 --> 00:31:55,407
Um, game changer.

508
00:31:55,407 --> 00:31:56,898
And I had both of them through Vistage.

509
00:31:56,898 --> 00:31:57,668
I'm still in Vistage.

510
00:31:57,668 --> 00:32:01,300
I'm also an EO, but, um, been in Vistage for nine years now.

511
00:32:01,341 --> 00:32:04,002
And then the third thing is some sort of framework.

512
00:32:04,002 --> 00:32:07,873
So it doesn't matter if it's EOS, like it sounds like you've got your own framework.

513
00:32:07,873 --> 00:32:10,484
It's just that EOS like changed my life.

514
00:32:10,484 --> 00:32:17,946
ah And we had a professional EOS implementer that came through our group about eight years
ago with Vistage, that's how I found out about it.

515
00:32:17,946 --> 00:32:21,327
We self-implemented, transformational for the company, which was great.

516
00:32:21,327 --> 00:32:25,589
ah And that was probably around like the five to 7 million mark.

517
00:32:25,589 --> 00:32:29,782
Once we got to 15, we were like, we can afford to go get another, or.

518
00:32:29,782 --> 00:32:33,315
We can afford to actually bring a, an implementer inside of the organization.

519
00:32:33,315 --> 00:32:37,247
So we went from self implementing, to bringing in an expert.

520
00:32:37,287 --> 00:32:39,689
And, I, I'll never forget this day one.

521
00:32:39,689 --> 00:32:42,601
She was like, you know, we were cocky and we were like, we know what we're doing.

522
00:32:42,601 --> 00:32:43,592
We've been self implementing.

523
00:32:43,592 --> 00:32:45,263
She was like, what the hell are you guys doing?

524
00:32:45,263 --> 00:32:47,594
When she looked at our VTO and everything else.

525
00:32:47,635 --> 00:32:52,498
And we went through a completely different, incredible transformation as an organization.

526
00:32:52,718 --> 00:32:58,252
Because like what EOS does is in very simple terms, when I was studying business.

527
00:32:58,466 --> 00:33:06,451
We would learn about vision and mission and values and like all these like fundamentals,
but there was nothing that ever actually like tied all of these things together.

528
00:33:06,451 --> 00:33:16,917
And the thing that business operating systems like EOS do is they take all of these things
that are very normal, um, like very natural concepts that have been taught for

529
00:33:16,917 --> 00:33:18,118
generations.

530
00:33:18,118 --> 00:33:25,790
And it brings them into like a systematic framework so that the organization can set the
right goals, get the right people working on the right things.

531
00:33:25,790 --> 00:33:31,531
Um, and make sure that everybody in the organization understands why you exist, the core
behaviors that drive that.

532
00:33:31,592 --> 00:33:43,595
Um, and then why that's so important for us today and what we do is like, if we go and we
recruit for an organization that's running on EOS, we already know so many things to be

533
00:33:43,595 --> 00:33:44,275
true.

534
00:33:44,275 --> 00:33:51,917
We know they have a VTO, a vision traction organizer, and they've got documented a vision,
a documented niche, a documented core values.

535
00:33:51,917 --> 00:33:55,032
And that's, we were talking about this earlier, but that's half the battle.

536
00:33:55,032 --> 00:34:02,906
So if we walk into an organization and they don't know their core values and they're just
kind of all over the place, it's impossible for us to do good work.

537
00:34:02,906 --> 00:34:07,859
Another recruiting shop would take that all day long and they'll go get three resumes
based upon the experience.

538
00:34:07,859 --> 00:34:09,129
They'll try and sell you on it.

539
00:34:09,129 --> 00:34:09,720
Not us.

540
00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:14,812
Like we'll say, we can't help you because we understand that over half the battle is
finding the right human.

541
00:34:14,812 --> 00:34:23,872
And if you don't understand like why your organization ticks or the core behaviors that
are driving those, those factors, then like, it doesn't matter who you use.

542
00:34:23,872 --> 00:34:27,207
It's not going to be a successful placement.

543
00:34:27,307 --> 00:34:28,338
Yeah, I agree.

544
00:34:28,338 --> 00:34:36,492
When I went to this event to support, you know, somebody who's become a friend and he's
building his organization and his brand and it's doing this for folks and somebody asks

545
00:34:36,492 --> 00:34:38,723
you to say, Hey, are you going to become a member of this and do this?

546
00:34:38,723 --> 00:34:50,119
said, Hey, listen, I'm not going to, but I will support him and what he's building all day
because the three days that I sat through and engaged and saw from the outside, it's

547
00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:51,329
positive and it's good.

548
00:34:51,329 --> 00:34:53,363
So what I will say is.

549
00:34:53,363 --> 00:34:55,653
Everyone needs to find something like this.

550
00:34:55,653 --> 00:35:00,444
They need systematic structure, whether it's one organization can do those or a group of
people.

551
00:35:00,444 --> 00:35:05,535
Cause what I told them is I said, y'all, it's very hard for us to find the system we need
in our hometown.

552
00:35:05,535 --> 00:35:06,995
It's very hard.

553
00:35:06,995 --> 00:35:14,657
And usually the networks that we built, they're not big and strong enough yet that we have
our own board of directors and resources in our personal network.

554
00:35:14,697 --> 00:35:16,917
So you got to go find a system to do it.

555
00:35:16,917 --> 00:35:21,528
And if you find a system that's positively influencing you that has those three tiers,

556
00:35:21,528 --> 00:35:23,128
go all in because there's many of them.

557
00:35:23,128 --> 00:35:25,190
I said, guys, this doesn't be my thing, right?

558
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:27,591
It doesn't have to be, but, this is a good thing.

559
00:35:27,591 --> 00:35:29,502
So I'm a hundred percent on board with what you're saying.

560
00:35:29,502 --> 00:35:41,169
Um, take me through how you evaluate personally, which, goes all it also into, um, your
recruiting platform.

561
00:35:41,169 --> 00:35:44,991
How do you evaluate a hire for a culture fit?

562
00:35:44,991 --> 00:35:47,522
And, and, and a part of that is what are the red flags?

563
00:35:47,522 --> 00:35:49,333
Do you think we ignore us?

564
00:35:49,333 --> 00:35:50,583
Founders ignore.

565
00:35:50,583 --> 00:35:52,156
when we're trying to do that.

566
00:35:53,964 --> 00:35:54,575
Yeah.

567
00:35:54,575 --> 00:35:59,818
Usually what we ignore is, our, is our, well, maybe we pay too much attention to it.

568
00:35:59,959 --> 00:36:03,472
When I've gotten hiring wrong in the past, like my gut told me to hire that person.

569
00:36:03,472 --> 00:36:14,091
And it's because like, felt some sort of like chemistry or connection or like something,
something was there and I avoided anything else, like any part of the evaluation or any

570
00:36:14,091 --> 00:36:15,192
part of the questionings.

571
00:36:15,192 --> 00:36:22,037
so I think one of the reasons recruiters are good is because they're kind of that first
filter and they have no emotional.

572
00:36:22,037 --> 00:36:23,238
uh

573
00:36:23,862 --> 00:36:27,900
ties to this, like, didn't meet the criteria, yes or no.

574
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:32,539
And so the founder or the hiring manager will never even see those people.

575
00:36:32,539 --> 00:36:34,182
um

576
00:36:35,788 --> 00:36:36,680
Yeah.

577
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,274
What, what was the, what was.

578
00:36:38,274 --> 00:36:41,506
The first one is like, do we evaluate a hire for a culture fit?

579
00:36:41,506 --> 00:36:42,276
Yeah.

580
00:36:42,276 --> 00:36:48,460
Without, because we ignore the red flags when we're trying to go through this, but like,
what's the real approach to do that for a cultural fit?

581
00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:50,661
So if it shouldn't be like, I like them.

582
00:36:50,661 --> 00:36:54,123
And cause that's, that's when we get hiring wrong, like, they're like me.

583
00:36:54,674 --> 00:36:56,005
I could, I could go right.

584
00:36:56,005 --> 00:36:56,725
That's bad.

585
00:36:56,725 --> 00:36:58,318
And that's usually who we hire.

586
00:36:58,318 --> 00:36:58,778
Yes.

587
00:36:58,778 --> 00:36:59,699
Yeah.

588
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:08,225
And I think like what we do here at Talent Harbor is we, we create a whole list of
questions specifically around those core behaviors.

589
00:37:08,225 --> 00:37:13,919
The reality is like, there is a lot of, there's a lot of like nuance to hiring.

590
00:37:13,919 --> 00:37:16,411
So there's some things that are very binary, very black and white.

591
00:37:16,411 --> 00:37:17,692
Do they have this experience?

592
00:37:17,692 --> 00:37:19,523
Do, did they answer this question?

593
00:37:19,523 --> 00:37:19,783
Right.

594
00:37:19,783 --> 00:37:21,635
Did I get some red flags off of this one?

595
00:37:21,635 --> 00:37:26,530
The reality is like culture fit is really hard because what you're evaluating is like.

596
00:37:26,530 --> 00:37:30,193
the things that they're saying versus the things that like, you believe them?

597
00:37:30,193 --> 00:37:38,800
So I'll give you some examples of this, which is number one, we don't give away the core
values right out of the gate because we're trying to get a sense of who that human is.

598
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:47,707
We might say like, what are some values that you hold very high when you're operating on a
team or amongst your other teammates?

599
00:37:47,707 --> 00:37:52,021
And what we're doing is we've got a list of call it three to seven for that organization.

600
00:37:52,021 --> 00:37:53,902
So we know what we're generally looking for.

601
00:37:53,902 --> 00:37:56,280
And we're just trying to see if like,

602
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,114
there's some spirit or essence between what they're saying and what we already know.

603
00:38:01,174 --> 00:38:02,586
And then after that, we go deep.

604
00:38:02,586 --> 00:38:06,579
And so this is where we do start getting into the organization's core values.

605
00:38:06,739 --> 00:38:16,177
Number one for us is go-givers, meaning that like, we just have this deep belief that if
we continue to put value in the world and create amazing relationships that like the

606
00:38:16,177 --> 00:38:18,910
universe, the universe will repay.

607
00:38:18,910 --> 00:38:24,054
And we do that without any expectation for reciprocation.

608
00:38:24,334 --> 00:38:29,987
And so we might go in there and might be like, you know, Hey, uh what would go giver mean
to you?

609
00:38:29,987 --> 00:38:31,448
Like what is in your core?

610
00:38:31,448 --> 00:38:32,839
What does that mean to you?

611
00:38:32,839 --> 00:38:39,032
And as we start going deeper and deeper, like we're getting deeper into that specific core
value.

612
00:38:39,032 --> 00:38:40,813
So it might be like, okay, great.

613
00:38:40,813 --> 00:38:41,654
That sounds amazing.

614
00:38:41,654 --> 00:38:52,834
Now give me an example of an action or behavior or a decision, something in your past
professionally where you exhibited that core, that core value and

615
00:38:52,834 --> 00:39:02,180
This is where it gets nuanced because you have to be able to grade, judge, determine
whether what that person telling you is correct or not.

616
00:39:02,180 --> 00:39:03,461
But I'll give you some indicators.

617
00:39:03,461 --> 00:39:05,892
Number one is they will light up.

618
00:39:05,892 --> 00:39:09,204
they, you will see their facial expressions light up.

619
00:39:09,204 --> 00:39:10,705
You will see them get energy.

620
00:39:10,705 --> 00:39:15,688
um And generally like that's a good tell that they're not completely full of crap.

621
00:39:15,688 --> 00:39:18,638
The other thing is how detailed is the story?

622
00:39:18,638 --> 00:39:23,464
em And if it's not detailed enough, then you can start asking follow-up questions to get
them to go deeper.

623
00:39:23,464 --> 00:39:26,837
And you're trying to figure out like, is this story true or not?

624
00:39:26,837 --> 00:39:34,517
And the more details there are with the story and the more they light up, the more it
probably is that like they're being, they're being honest about whatever line of

625
00:39:34,517 --> 00:39:35,788
questioning that is.

626
00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:42,560
I'm going to try to reduce recruiting and hiring down to one statement and I'll let you
expand on it or say it's wrong.

627
00:39:43,023 --> 00:39:48,532
In hiring, the only thing I'm trying to do is figure out how people make decisions.

628
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,570
I like it.

629
00:39:56,670 --> 00:39:58,471
Let me, let me ask you this.

630
00:39:59,011 --> 00:40:07,393
The way they make decisions, like, can you, can you derive, cause so when I think of
decisions and I agree with you here, like, because if I can figure out how someone makes

631
00:40:07,393 --> 00:40:08,804
decisions, I can figure out most of it.

632
00:40:08,804 --> 00:40:11,834
can figure out their, ethics, their morals.

633
00:40:11,864 --> 00:40:15,915
I can figure out their kind of decision-making process in that.

634
00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:25,128
one of the things that I care equally about is the effort that they're going to put into
it.

635
00:40:25,344 --> 00:40:36,237
Meaning that like, even if their decision was all jacked up, if I know that they are going
to operate very fast and be unafraid to fail, um, and they're going to figure it out,

636
00:40:36,237 --> 00:40:37,367
like, I love that.

637
00:40:37,367 --> 00:40:48,781
So as long as, as a part of like your hypothesis there of like, I just want to know how
they make decisions, as long as however you interview and, and, um, vet, as long as you're

638
00:40:48,781 --> 00:40:53,702
getting a sense of like how much hustle and grind and.

639
00:40:54,306 --> 00:41:03,276
This sounds weird, but kind of like bravery, ah because there's a lot of people that are
afraid to fail and those types of people will hold your organization back.

640
00:41:03,276 --> 00:41:08,782
Um, cause you'll never move and they won't make decisions because they, don't want to make
the wrong one.

641
00:41:08,782 --> 00:41:16,020
I would rather have someone make the wrong decision and then course correct, you know, the
next day versus take three weeks to make that decision.

642
00:41:17,708 --> 00:41:18,338
Okay.

643
00:41:18,338 --> 00:41:21,580
I'll continue to, to, to, vibe around this.

644
00:41:21,580 --> 00:41:24,562
And the reason why I've arrived there, cause you're not wrong.

645
00:41:24,562 --> 00:41:27,243
mean, it's like, what are you going to do after you make the decision?

646
00:41:28,444 --> 00:41:36,509
But if I can find out how people make decisions, if I can figure that out, I can realize
if the way they make the decisions as it fit culturally into our company, but does it fit

647
00:41:36,509 --> 00:41:38,089
this role as well?

648
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:43,352
And then, but also what I've found is we all have these seasons in our life.

649
00:41:44,473 --> 00:41:46,274
And those seasons.

650
00:41:47,148 --> 00:41:54,812
A lot of times affect how all in you are, how much effort you're giving right now, what
your mood or your attitude is.

651
00:41:54,812 --> 00:42:00,225
mean, there's a lot of tough things that happen in our lives that could affect how they
show up.

652
00:42:00,225 --> 00:42:09,270
But usually what's not going to change is the level of intelligence or brilliance or
decision-making that that person possesses that they're currently, I'm not talking about

653
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:09,991
ability.

654
00:42:09,991 --> 00:42:12,492
I'm talking about what their capability is.

655
00:42:13,373 --> 00:42:15,694
That's why, that's why I went there on it.

656
00:42:16,182 --> 00:42:16,642
love it.

657
00:42:16,642 --> 00:42:22,617
And like, I have a very real example of someone that I've been trying to recruit for the
last 12 months.

658
00:42:22,617 --> 00:42:24,728
I'm sure she uh won't listen to this.

659
00:42:24,728 --> 00:42:26,369
uh Hopefully not.

660
00:42:26,369 --> 00:42:28,250
Cause then, then I'm in big trouble.

661
00:42:28,251 --> 00:42:30,412
But if she does happen to catch it, I'm, still trying.

662
00:42:30,412 --> 00:42:38,368
um When I met her, and this is what was so incredible about what you just said is that's a
place that they were at in their life.

663
00:42:38,368 --> 00:42:45,122
But I saw exactly what you just described, like the decision-making process and, and from
the

664
00:42:45,752 --> 00:42:48,623
Four or five conversations that I've had with them.

665
00:42:48,623 --> 00:42:54,004
um I know who they are and I know what their capability is.

666
00:42:54,044 --> 00:42:58,916
And it was like the way that they were showing up at that point was just based upon a
season in their life.

667
00:42:58,916 --> 00:43:01,442
And I got an understanding of like why they were there.

668
00:43:01,442 --> 00:43:03,207
I love what you just said there.

669
00:43:03,207 --> 00:43:10,689
One question for you, like, what would you do in that case if they weren't in the season
where they were willing to give all, but you knew that they were the right person?

670
00:43:10,689 --> 00:43:13,590
Like, would you pull the trigger then or what would you do?

671
00:43:13,612 --> 00:43:15,003
go deep I think into the season.

672
00:43:15,003 --> 00:43:21,346
Like I go very vulnerable when I'm serious about bringing somebody on that's going to be
high impact for my companies.

673
00:43:21,406 --> 00:43:27,690
I set the stage real quick to go into an environment about um the things that do make them
tick.

674
00:43:27,690 --> 00:43:31,452
Once I establish like A, this person sees around corners.

675
00:43:32,213 --> 00:43:40,977
It's like if I have somebody that sees around corners that can project the things that are
already going to happen beyond what's happening right now, that's special unique ability

676
00:43:40,977 --> 00:43:42,568
and talent that they have.

677
00:43:42,592 --> 00:43:47,915
And so I go to figure out and say, because let's go back to the moment when during your
bankruptcy, right?

678
00:43:47,915 --> 00:43:53,588
Or go, go back to 2008 when my real estate company, was all in on three weeks away from
bankruptcy and losing everything.

679
00:43:53,588 --> 00:43:54,939
I'm behind on all my bills.

680
00:43:54,939 --> 00:43:55,990
Credit scores suck.

681
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:56,550
Right?

682
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:59,242
The only thing I knew how to do right then let me go sell something.

683
00:43:59,242 --> 00:44:03,354
So maybe I can catch up on some bills so this dream can come to fruition.

684
00:44:03,354 --> 00:44:10,588
What I know is, is that you touched on it earlier, like give me people who have come
through the fire.

685
00:44:10,722 --> 00:44:19,805
But what I, but what I accept about the fire is all the decisions that are being made in
the fire and, and, all the behavior, it's not going to be awesome because you're actually

686
00:44:19,805 --> 00:44:24,166
as a human, like you're learning if you're going to be forged coming out of that.

687
00:44:24,666 --> 00:44:29,027
Like, is this person going to come out of it and be stronger, a stronger version of
themselves?

688
00:44:29,027 --> 00:44:31,868
And if that's the case, it's going to be because we made a lot of mistakes.

689
00:44:31,868 --> 00:44:33,168
wouldn't make again.

690
00:44:33,348 --> 00:44:33,869
Right.

691
00:44:33,869 --> 00:44:39,064
And in those seasons, the thing I am happy about is that I had the resilience that I kept
going.

692
00:44:39,064 --> 00:44:44,517
But if someone would have talked to me in those seasons, I probably would have been like a
blubbering idiot.

693
00:44:44,537 --> 00:44:45,318
Yeah.

694
00:44:45,318 --> 00:44:45,988
Right.

695
00:44:45,988 --> 00:44:49,540
And what would have probably come out of me was just like survival.

696
00:44:50,020 --> 00:45:00,386
So I try to find out who they are as a human, because if I believe in my organization and
I would hold myself to high esteem as a leader, then I'm to be part of the catalyst that

697
00:45:00,386 --> 00:45:02,107
like reawakens them.

698
00:45:02,227 --> 00:45:06,109
That is going to give them environment to really fulfill what I see as their capability.

699
00:45:06,109 --> 00:45:07,660
So, um,

700
00:45:09,130 --> 00:45:10,461
I appreciate the hardships.

701
00:45:10,461 --> 00:45:12,352
appreciate when someone's actually going through it.

702
00:45:12,352 --> 00:45:19,557
And if they can be vulnerable and tell me about what they're going through it, I will sit
down and say, Hey, listen, we don't want to have this reflective thing that we beat up on

703
00:45:19,557 --> 00:45:22,470
ourselves, but knowing what you know now, would you do the same thing again?

704
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:24,000
Yeah.

705
00:45:24,661 --> 00:45:25,642
And then work.

706
00:45:25,642 --> 00:45:26,192
That's it.

707
00:45:26,192 --> 00:45:36,169
Work through that process because the best human beings to lead organizations, it's not
that I'm looking to change every day, but I walk into a room and I walk into a company,

708
00:45:36,169 --> 00:45:37,630
show me where I'm wrong.

709
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:39,634
Show me the errors that I have.

710
00:45:39,634 --> 00:45:41,178
Show me the weaknesses that I have.

711
00:45:41,178 --> 00:45:42,782
Because the ego's gone.

712
00:45:42,782 --> 00:45:44,827
I want to take that and crush and grow right now.

713
00:45:44,827 --> 00:45:47,812
I think this is the core of what I'm talking about.

714
00:45:48,334 --> 00:45:53,418
You know, what's interesting, we just had a conversation about this internally, maybe
about a month ago.

715
00:45:53,679 --> 00:46:03,087
We've, we've been hiring from a, from a certain shop and we've started to do some analysis
or some assessment of like, is that?

716
00:46:03,087 --> 00:46:09,543
And what we've realized is the, one of the shops is like incredibly cutthroat and it's
just churn and burn.

717
00:46:09,543 --> 00:46:12,135
so like, there's people that make incredible money at this firm.

718
00:46:12,135 --> 00:46:16,168
Um, but at the end of the day, like they're selling their soul to get there.

719
00:46:16,266 --> 00:46:17,567
and it's burning folks out.

720
00:46:17,567 --> 00:46:26,425
And what's interesting is like, we've kind of developed this hypothesis and like, this is
going to sound stupid because adversity is probably the biggest reason that I'm where I'm

721
00:46:26,425 --> 00:46:34,781
at today, which is like, if I didn't experience those things and like be able to get back
up, then like, you know, I won't say I'm numb to things at this point, but I can tolerate

722
00:46:34,781 --> 00:46:36,282
quite a bit of.

723
00:46:38,004 --> 00:46:38,965
Yes.

724
00:46:39,365 --> 00:46:40,370
Incredibly.

725
00:46:40,370 --> 00:46:42,861
a high threshold and not, not like braggadocious.

726
00:46:42,861 --> 00:46:50,175
It's because I've made so many stupid decisions in the past that I put myself in positions
where like it was either keep going or, or give up, guess.

727
00:46:50,175 --> 00:46:59,019
Um, but it's like, if you can find those things where like someone pushed through, like it
may not have been the culture for them, but like they've already had that adversity in

728
00:46:59,019 --> 00:46:59,959
their lives.

729
00:46:59,959 --> 00:47:05,542
And maybe that's not the culture that they're looking for, but they've been through it and
they've, they've been able to succeed.

730
00:47:05,622 --> 00:47:06,422
Um,

731
00:47:06,458 --> 00:47:06,858
I don't know.

732
00:47:06,858 --> 00:47:14,984
We just have this interesting hypothesis internally right now with like where we're doing
our own searches and the organizations that we're, we're targeting because we're getting

733
00:47:14,984 --> 00:47:18,466
world-class talent right now, which is, which is pretty incredible.

734
00:47:18,466 --> 00:47:24,906
Yeah, are you finding you're getting the world-class talent from the people that went
through the churn and burn or that's bad?

735
00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:35,803
No, that went through it because like what, and came through the other side, I should say,
like went through it, succeeded, but ultimately at some point hit a brick wall because

736
00:47:35,803 --> 00:47:40,354
like the, was just way too much.

737
00:47:40,794 --> 00:47:47,176
their ability to be successful in an enterprise like that and face that adversity, like
everybody's going to burn out at some point.

738
00:47:47,176 --> 00:47:54,542
And I'd almost make an argument that, you know, my bank, I wrote a blog on this a long,
long time ago, was part of the self therapy.

739
00:47:54,542 --> 00:47:57,242
But like I wrote this blog and the title was I chose to fail.

740
00:47:57,242 --> 00:48:01,362
And the whole premise was like, you can go pretty low.

741
00:48:01,502 --> 00:48:08,342
Like folks, folks out there, there's a guy I'm talking to right now and helping him work
through some, cashflow issues.

742
00:48:08,502 --> 00:48:10,422
And, and he was like, it's all over.

743
00:48:10,422 --> 00:48:12,102
And I was like, what have you missed any payments?

744
00:48:12,102 --> 00:48:12,722
And he's like, no.

745
00:48:12,722 --> 00:48:15,462
And I was like, dude, you're like 18 months from it being all over.

746
00:48:15,462 --> 00:48:23,724
Like every time I thought there wasn't another level, we dropped down and be like, okay,
well, this is still uncomfortable, but like we're not dead yet.

747
00:48:23,724 --> 00:48:29,058
And I think a lot of business owners don't understand, not that that should be the goal,
but a lot of business owners don't understand that.

748
00:48:29,058 --> 00:48:35,482
Like you kind of choose to fail because like you either throw in the towel and say like,
this is it, or you just keep fighting through.

749
00:48:35,482 --> 00:48:44,369
uh So anyhow, long winded, like, you know, I think having that adversity, being able to
persevere through it is incredibly important.

750
00:48:44,369 --> 00:48:46,560
And those are some folks that we look for.

751
00:48:46,606 --> 00:48:51,986
Yeah, I heard a lady, I don't know who she was, but she was one of the first early like
first 30 hires at Apple.

752
00:48:51,986 --> 00:48:56,646
And people were, know, there's this big, it's a conundrum about was Steve Jobs good or was
he bad?

753
00:48:56,646 --> 00:49:05,006
We can come up with all these things, all these iPhones we have in the technology without
a forward thinker who is determined as him, who's crazy as him.

754
00:49:05,006 --> 00:49:06,806
We don't have the thing, right?

755
00:49:06,806 --> 00:49:08,186
But what did it take?

756
00:49:08,186 --> 00:49:09,666
How many things did he break?

757
00:49:09,666 --> 00:49:12,986
How many people did he ruin to get there, right?

758
00:49:12,986 --> 00:49:15,702
But there was a lady, one of the first 30 hires.

759
00:49:15,702 --> 00:49:20,587
And she talked about, she's like, listen, he was the most difficult person that I ever
worked for.

760
00:49:20,808 --> 00:49:24,331
And most days that I worked for him were not fun.

761
00:49:24,652 --> 00:49:26,814
And she said something like she's a percentage.

762
00:49:26,814 --> 00:49:31,279
She's like, broke 85 % of the people that worked for him and came through the company.

763
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:37,756
But for the 15 % that weren't broken like me, it gave me the life I have.

764
00:49:39,842 --> 00:49:43,283
That's tough to put that together and deal with.

765
00:49:43,524 --> 00:49:47,445
But then I take back and I'm like, okay, there's personal responsibility here.

766
00:49:48,186 --> 00:49:52,989
There's personal responsibility and choice to say, how much do I want?

767
00:49:52,989 --> 00:49:54,929
What's the type of life I wanna live?

768
00:49:54,929 --> 00:49:57,381
What threshold of pain am I willing to accept?

769
00:49:57,381 --> 00:49:59,752
How deep am I willing to go on self-awareness?

770
00:49:59,752 --> 00:50:04,608
How exposed am I willing to make my ego because I want the exchange for this life?

771
00:50:04,608 --> 00:50:10,986
and we shouldn't tear down organizations or situations or new startups just because we
don't like it or we don't fit there, right?

772
00:50:10,986 --> 00:50:14,109
There's a personal responsibility to choose.

773
00:50:14,310 --> 00:50:15,180
Yes.

774
00:50:15,438 --> 00:50:23,998
And like, have this conversation a lot of like, there's no, there's no good or bad or
right or wrong when it comes to company culture.

775
00:50:23,998 --> 00:50:27,338
Like, you know, and Apple's an example of that.

776
00:50:27,338 --> 00:50:29,258
Tesla's an example of that.

777
00:50:29,298 --> 00:50:32,778
SpaceX, like you've got these like maniac founders.

778
00:50:33,098 --> 00:50:38,818
You said this earlier, like without that, we would not have much of the things that we
have today.

779
00:50:38,958 --> 00:50:40,278
And then you've got the opposite side.

780
00:50:40,278 --> 00:50:44,302
Like, I don't know why I always think about Zappos in this, but like Zappos used to be
like, oh, like.

781
00:50:44,302 --> 00:50:49,382
It's all customer centric and oh, if you don't want to be here after three months, we'll
pay you 25,000 to like literally just go away.

782
00:50:49,382 --> 00:50:53,262
If you don't want to be a part of this culture, there's no right or wrong in this.

783
00:50:53,262 --> 00:50:58,822
And it's really a matter of like what drives innovation and what makes that organization
successful.

784
00:51:00,182 --> 00:51:04,722
I have, I have thought about this though a lot lately and I haven't come to a conclusion.

785
00:51:05,682 --> 00:51:13,882
What types of organizations have been developed and been like incredibly successful from
an innovation other standpoint where it did not have.

786
00:51:14,242 --> 00:51:15,748
that type of culture.

787
00:51:18,125 --> 00:51:19,126
There aren't

788
00:51:21,504 --> 00:51:24,408
I've been like brainstorming on this for for the last couple months

789
00:51:24,408 --> 00:51:25,098
There aren't many.

790
00:51:25,098 --> 00:51:29,300
And, and, and so I don't have an answer to, it good or not?

791
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,120
I just look at, and I'm, I'm trying to get, but I'm just looking at data.

792
00:51:33,522 --> 00:51:36,853
And the thing is like, well, don't you have empathy for the tough?

793
00:51:36,853 --> 00:51:44,697
It's like, well, kind of, but we're forged the future great sword to go into battle is
forged out of these failures and bad experience.

794
00:51:44,697 --> 00:51:46,587
We've all had, we all have had.

795
00:51:46,668 --> 00:51:46,938
Right.

796
00:51:46,938 --> 00:51:52,460
If you're saying the tough parts of your life, you couldn't have been this person talking
today with the mindset.

797
00:51:52,460 --> 00:51:56,814
with now having the understanding to go start these other companies that are benefiting
society.

798
00:51:56,814 --> 00:51:59,836
What I know is I'm going to attribute this with parents today.

799
00:51:59,896 --> 00:52:02,238
What I, it seems like what parents always want.

800
00:52:02,238 --> 00:52:08,142
I'm going to get parents always want their kids to just level up and they want their wife
to be better than theirs.

801
00:52:08,263 --> 00:52:10,985
You hear that generation after, okay, great.

802
00:52:10,985 --> 00:52:12,202
That's awesome.

803
00:52:12,202 --> 00:52:20,802
as companies, the best companies, we want to lift people up and let me give you a vehicle
that also gives customers and clients what they want, but also improves your life and

804
00:52:20,802 --> 00:52:26,437
allows you to develop and allows you to maybe create financial independence and you to
have a better family.

805
00:52:26,738 --> 00:52:34,196
But here's the problem where we're at in society now with families, with parents, with
kids, and with leaders now coming up.

806
00:52:35,790 --> 00:52:41,055
part of what they mean where they want their kids or people to have a life better than
theirs.

807
00:52:41,817 --> 00:52:55,441
country is so rich now and it is so filled with opportunity and easier than it's ever been
to live a good life that a part of the thing that they're saying about I want them to have

808
00:52:55,441 --> 00:52:58,814
a better life is they're removing the adversity.

809
00:53:00,726 --> 00:53:06,390
and how we've become who we are sitting here is through the adversity.

810
00:53:07,092 --> 00:53:18,201
So it is very admirable that the goal of wanting people to have a better life, to make
their life easier, but the only way my life has become easier is by me improving myself as

811
00:53:18,201 --> 00:53:20,463
a human and going through hard moments.

812
00:53:20,463 --> 00:53:24,166
I don't know how we can replace this experience and have the same outcome.

813
00:53:24,940 --> 00:53:27,131
No, I, and frankly, I don't think you can.

814
00:53:27,131 --> 00:53:30,093
that I, I've been trying to figure this out.

815
00:53:30,093 --> 00:53:33,745
One, this is such a relevant and like topical conversation.

816
00:53:33,745 --> 00:53:36,797
Cause like, I even think about that with my own organization.

817
00:53:36,797 --> 00:53:44,842
And I think where I've like fallen on the spectrum is like, I think there's a way to have
like care and empathy, but also like a high expectation.

818
00:53:44,842 --> 00:53:51,936
And that's, that's kind of the balance that I've had is like, we will care, we will have
empathy and we will pour into you.

819
00:53:51,936 --> 00:53:52,396
Like.

820
00:53:52,396 --> 00:53:54,016
We will invest in your professional develop.

821
00:53:54,016 --> 00:53:56,327
We'll have an understanding of what's going on in your personal life.

822
00:53:56,327 --> 00:53:57,167
We will support.

823
00:53:57,167 --> 00:54:01,389
We will be there to support you while at the same time, the expectation is this.

824
00:54:01,389 --> 00:54:05,430
uh and like times aren't always, um, you know, great.

825
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:15,473
Um, we went through a growth spurt in, uh, probably November, December, and like, was
stressing out the organization and like, you know, like I could have said, pull back or

826
00:54:15,473 --> 00:54:16,479
like, let's do this or let's do that.

827
00:54:16,479 --> 00:54:18,874
I'm like, no, like this is.

828
00:54:19,352 --> 00:54:23,185
this is why we do all the other stuff is so that we rise to these moments.

829
00:54:23,185 --> 00:54:25,848
And everybody got through and we got through and it was great.

830
00:54:25,848 --> 00:54:30,261
But I just, think about that often of like, you know, do you have to be a dick?

831
00:54:30,261 --> 00:54:33,935
Do you, do you have to be like hard to like get someone through?

832
00:54:33,935 --> 00:54:36,687
And I don't even know where I fall on that today.

833
00:54:36,687 --> 00:54:38,162
Cause especially the military.

834
00:54:38,162 --> 00:54:44,165
Yes, so we're talking about the leadership, What is the perfect leadership style?

835
00:54:44,425 --> 00:54:46,526
Is it a John Maxwell book?

836
00:54:47,326 --> 00:54:53,249
Is it listening to some of the most hard and rigid David Goggins podcasts?

837
00:54:53,249 --> 00:54:54,169
Right?

838
00:54:54,210 --> 00:54:56,651
I think everybody's searching for the truth and right.

839
00:54:56,651 --> 00:55:01,473
And unfortunately, if you're leading an organization, you got to go out and find it.

840
00:55:02,253 --> 00:55:04,226
I think you have to, you have to

841
00:55:04,226 --> 00:55:11,123
decide what your template is and stamp the company, whether I'm right or wrong, I'm
standing up in a sales meeting the other day and there's 50 or 60 people from my company

842
00:55:11,123 --> 00:55:11,573
there.

843
00:55:11,573 --> 00:55:19,200
And I said, you all, what we have to understand is my job and my role as a CEO is to
create an environment for excellence to occur.

844
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:28,879
And that excellence to occur is every one of us showing up every day and realizing our
first job as this company, it is to lift us up and make sure that we are going out into

845
00:55:28,879 --> 00:55:29,750
the marketplace.

846
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:32,951
and delivering an elite level of whatever we say we're doing.

847
00:55:32,951 --> 00:55:34,912
That is job number one.

848
00:55:35,432 --> 00:55:36,773
Here's job number two.

849
00:55:36,773 --> 00:55:42,275
We just happen to be a company when hard things are going on, we step next to you and put
our arm around you and lift you up as well.

850
00:55:42,275 --> 00:55:44,796
But that is not our exclusive job.

851
00:55:45,057 --> 00:55:47,898
Our exclusive job is what the job of this company is.

852
00:55:47,898 --> 00:55:53,440
It is for us to excel in that role to make sure we execute and we perform on what that is.

853
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,962
And thankfully, we have a culture that also celebrates us and picks us up in hard times.

854
00:55:57,962 --> 00:56:00,088
It's not the second one first.

855
00:56:00,231 --> 00:56:01,613
I don't believe so.

856
00:56:03,224 --> 00:56:06,152
People could argue with me, I'm open for debate on it.

857
00:56:06,528 --> 00:56:12,731
Why I want to like, that's, that's like where I'm starting to cut.

858
00:56:12,731 --> 00:56:19,673
Like that's the conclusion I've been, and I told you this earlier of like, I've been
thinking about this long and hard over the last few months of like, you know, what

859
00:56:19,673 --> 00:56:29,107
organizations out there that had like a soft is, is not a, it's probably not the best
word, but like they leaned more on care and empathy than they did to driving innovation

860
00:56:29,107 --> 00:56:36,470
and like you, and obviously the question for you was in the moment, but I've spent three
months on it and like, I've not been able to identify where it was like, you know,

861
00:56:36,736 --> 00:56:40,498
It was all about just like Care Bears and rainbows and everything else.

862
00:56:40,498 --> 00:56:47,492
Like, no, like the organizations that succeed are the, are the ones that like are, forged
and, are battle tested.

863
00:56:47,492 --> 00:56:50,234
Um, and then that makes me ref.

864
00:56:50,382 --> 00:56:57,247
You know, this is how I know how because we're as leaders being held accountable for
everybody's performance.

865
00:56:58,708 --> 00:57:04,312
Our employees are holding us accountable for making sure we maintain and grow this company
that they can thrive in.

866
00:57:04,773 --> 00:57:09,616
The consumers are holding us accountable to deliver a plus in everything that we do.

867
00:57:10,137 --> 00:57:14,460
We are, we are evaluated in our jobs on the performance of the company.

868
00:57:15,401 --> 00:57:17,022
First, first, that's it.

869
00:57:17,250 --> 00:57:19,241
then it was a great place to work and all that.

870
00:57:19,241 --> 00:57:24,598
There is no great place to work and us to care about each other if we are not performing
at Nextelola.

871
00:57:26,498 --> 00:57:27,318
Yeah.

872
00:57:27,319 --> 00:57:33,523
Like I probably have a great example from, from hunt to killer days, like for, for your
audience, like go to, go to glass door.

873
00:57:33,523 --> 00:57:35,804
Like you will see some ridiculous things about me.

874
00:57:35,804 --> 00:57:38,286
And I don't, I don't think I'm a tyrant.

875
00:57:38,286 --> 00:57:47,142
I do think that there was a certain point in the organization where we crossed that
threshold of like, we went from like being incredibly performance focused and like, what

876
00:57:47,142 --> 00:57:54,667
are we here to do and what are we going to do to like, we were way too much on the it's
all about care and this is a great place to be.

877
00:57:54,667 --> 00:57:55,998
and like.

878
00:57:56,108 --> 00:57:59,723
What was interesting about that is once that dynamic started to shift...

879
00:58:01,474 --> 00:58:04,698
the culture was really no longer there.

880
00:58:04,698 --> 00:58:11,212
And yeah, I don't know how much I have to say on that, but it's interesting as we kind of
process this in real time.

881
00:58:11,212 --> 00:58:14,504
Yeah, I think what we can finish on this and because we're wrapping up our time.

882
00:58:14,504 --> 00:58:17,246
mean, I could sit here and go on this stuff for an hour or two, man.

883
00:58:17,246 --> 00:58:18,231
I think it's awesome.

884
00:58:18,231 --> 00:58:21,195
The mindset and perspective that you have and relevance to the world.

885
00:58:21,195 --> 00:58:24,358
But, you I just.

886
00:58:29,006 --> 00:58:31,766
I do love when people live better lives.

887
00:58:32,266 --> 00:58:38,466
I I love seeing people win, I have a very, I have a growth mindset.

888
00:58:38,466 --> 00:58:41,846
There's nothing about anything scarce in my mind at all.

889
00:58:41,846 --> 00:58:43,406
Like at all.

890
00:58:44,446 --> 00:58:46,086
It is.

891
00:58:47,884 --> 00:58:52,678
I think kindness is giving honest, feedback.

892
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:58,423
Because without it, there's no growth of people that I'm responsible to lead.

893
00:58:59,605 --> 00:59:06,150
I can do it in a caring, kind way, but if that person isn't willing to go down the
journey, it's not gonna feel kind.

894
00:59:07,758 --> 00:59:10,398
And you don't do it overnight with one big meeting.

895
00:59:10,398 --> 00:59:14,338
You do it in small incremental steps in every interaction you have with that human.

896
00:59:14,458 --> 00:59:22,078
But if you lose transparency and honesty and a com and within a company and all of a
sudden you give them a pink slim one day and they're looking around, they're like, what?

897
00:59:22,078 --> 00:59:23,618
That wasn't kind.

898
00:59:24,998 --> 00:59:25,602
So.

899
00:59:25,602 --> 00:59:27,333
That's that was, that was me by the way.

900
00:59:27,333 --> 00:59:32,388
Like, like, and I, I've gotten coached on this and I continue to work on this to this day.

901
00:59:32,388 --> 00:59:40,735
My biggest issue, probably some of my early companies was that exact thing, which was
like, I tolerated because I didn't want to have the tough conversations.

902
00:59:40,795 --> 00:59:42,177
I tolerate a lot.

903
00:59:42,177 --> 00:59:43,378
And what's the next step out it?

904
00:59:43,378 --> 00:59:46,600
Like once it gets to that point, there's no, there's no coaching anymore.

905
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:47,722
It's just down.

906
00:59:47,722 --> 00:59:51,485
And so the, situation you just talked about, like I've lived that with friends.

907
00:59:51,485 --> 00:59:52,345
I've lived that.

908
00:59:52,345 --> 00:59:53,446
uh

909
00:59:53,934 --> 01:00:02,894
And that's not the place, like, that's why like, you know, more frequent conversations and
coaching is like so important to me this day is cause I don't want to get back to a place

910
01:00:02,894 --> 01:00:04,534
of where here's a pink slip.

911
01:00:04,534 --> 01:00:05,294
It's a surprise.

912
01:00:05,294 --> 01:00:07,782
And you've been screwing up for the last three months.

913
01:00:08,142 --> 01:00:12,762
Um, what a way to end it since I'm going to hand it back to you cause we're not going to
up on screwing up, right?

914
01:00:12,762 --> 01:00:14,742
But I'm going to hand it back to you.

915
01:00:15,182 --> 01:00:22,702
Um, you know, everybody's going to, from our audience is going to find out about you as we
collaborate and put posts out and all micro content, but I'm going to hand it back to you

916
01:00:22,702 --> 01:00:23,962
to wrap it up.

917
01:00:23,962 --> 01:00:25,642
We're here in 2026.

918
01:00:25,642 --> 01:00:27,902
There's just craziness happening around AI.

919
01:00:27,902 --> 01:00:29,942
There's efficiency all over our world.

920
01:00:29,942 --> 01:00:32,042
We're saying that human engagement is still going to win.

921
01:00:32,042 --> 01:00:33,642
And it's number one.

922
01:00:33,642 --> 01:00:36,522
I think everyone is, um, there's a of people were scared.

923
01:00:36,522 --> 01:00:37,976
There's a lot of people confused.

924
01:00:37,976 --> 01:00:44,768
But I look at it as what an opportunity to change your life in a shorter timeframe than
was ever possible for the average human.

925
01:00:44,768 --> 01:00:53,051
But I want to hand it back to you to say, Ryan, give us the state of the union as we wrap
up for how you're seeing where we're at right now here in 2026.

926
01:00:53,051 --> 01:01:00,454
It can be what you're excited about, what you see as the future or just whatever you just
thought about this morning.

927
01:01:00,706 --> 01:01:05,118
Yeah, I think, well, since you brought up the AI thing, I'll talk about that just real
quick.

928
01:01:05,118 --> 01:01:13,106
You know, there's a lot of fear that's being, um that's coming from this whole notion of
AI.

929
01:01:13,352 --> 01:01:17,764
When we think about AI, we think about how do we make uh our teammates lives better?

930
01:01:17,764 --> 01:01:19,275
How do we serve our clients better?

931
01:01:19,275 --> 01:01:26,208
um What platforms exist that we can take off the shelf that already have AI included and
things like that?

932
01:01:26,724 --> 01:01:33,274
I'm not going to say AI is a nothing burger because it's already had massive impacts and,
and, know, massive innovation on everything that we do.

933
01:01:33,274 --> 01:01:45,868
I will say that a lot of the hype that's been driving this fear has been coming from the
people that need to go raise the money to continue to build servers and, and build, uh

934
01:01:45,868 --> 01:01:48,109
empower infrastructures and everything else.

935
01:01:48,109 --> 01:01:54,958
You know, I think, I think the day's coming where, where there's going to be a lot of
things that we do on a daily basis.

936
01:01:54,958 --> 01:02:03,770
um That AI is gonna be taken care of look We used to write we used to do our balance sheet
and checkbooks or we used to like write down Logs and a PNL and a paper then we did it in

937
01:02:03,770 --> 01:02:07,141
Excel then we did it in QuickBooks online So will things continue to evolve?

938
01:02:07,141 --> 01:02:09,102
Yes, will they evolve faster?

939
01:02:09,102 --> 01:02:12,463
Most likely is the world over tomorrow and all jobs going away?

940
01:02:12,463 --> 01:02:20,805
Absolutely not and I think that organizations that can like stay focused on what they're
doing and then kind of take things that are happening and and bring them into their

941
01:02:20,805 --> 01:02:23,596
organization are the ones that gonna be winners

942
01:02:23,970 --> 01:02:31,476
Frankly, think some of the ones that are gonna be losers are gonna be the ones that are
like going and building 50 AI agents thinking that all this stuff's gonna solve all their

943
01:02:31,476 --> 01:02:36,159
problems tomorrow um because they're gonna lose focus on why they exist in the first
place.

944
01:02:36,159 --> 01:02:40,101
So I think technology and AI is an enhancement, not a replacement.

945
01:02:40,101 --> 01:02:42,084
That's just my humble opinion next year.

946
01:02:42,084 --> 01:02:45,386
Maybe we're all fired and robots have taken over the world.

947
01:02:45,634 --> 01:02:48,689
and they'll change what this podcast, what was said in it.

948
01:02:48,967 --> 01:02:50,014
There we go.

949
01:02:50,014 --> 01:02:51,701
gosh, then they're coming after me.

950
01:02:52,193 --> 01:02:54,937
Ryan Hogan, Hey, I appreciate you being on, man.

951
01:02:54,937 --> 01:02:56,088
This was awesome.

952
01:02:56,088 --> 01:02:57,184
Yeah, thanks for having me, Mark.

953
01:02:57,184 --> 01:02:58,862
This was a really fun conversation.

954
01:02:58,862 --> 01:02:59,342
Awesome, man.

955
01:02:59,342 --> 01:03:00,198
Thanks a lot.