#183 - Turning Creativity Into a Business with Tim Packer

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If you say, don't want to do that, just replace that with, I don't want it bad enough.

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All right, you all welcome back for another episode.

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I love when we have different and unique perspectives on entrepreneurship.

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And today we're going to be bringing an artistic and creative bent to what we're talking
about, but still founded in entrepreneurship, business growth.

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And at the end of the day, how can we help people positively change their lives?

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So today's guest, finally someone who doesn't have a difficult name for me to pronounce.

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So Tim Packer, thank your parents and previous generations for making it easy on me.

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Tim's a professional artist, creative business mentor and founder of the Tim Packer Art
Academy.

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Tim's a former police detective who made the leap into entrepreneurship and went on to
build a multimillion dollar art business by mastering not just the creative side of his

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craft, but the business side as well.

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Today, he helps artists around the world build sustainable, profitable careers.

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And he's also the author of the recent best seller hitting the tops of charts.

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You can sell your art.

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which challenges the idea that success and creative work is about talent alone.

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think I said that wrong.

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It's not just about talent alone.

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It's to be good.

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And so I'm excited to dig into the systems of mindset shifts and the real world mechanics
behind turning creativity into a viable business.

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Tim, welcome to the necessary entrepreneur.

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thanks for having me.

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I'm excited for this conversation.

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So we'll get into the book at some point.

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I'll weave it in.

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You're having massive success at launch.

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We'll talk about where they can get it, all that stuff, and we'll tag it in the shows.

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But what is so wrong about creatives and artists making money and making a living and not
starving?

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What's so bad about that?

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problem is out there in the artistic community, for some reason, I don't know how this
ever got started, that somehow if you are successful financially, that you are somehow

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selling out.

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That somehow it should not be about money.

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Money should never enter the conversation.

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And art is pretty much the only field where there is that kind of feeling.

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And then on the other hand, there's the feeling that, you can't make a living from your
art because so many artists are starving.

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And so like...

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I'm here to say that yes, you can make a very, very good living from your art.

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And if you do so, you should be proud of that.

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You should not be shy or embarrassed or apologize for making a very good living from your
art.

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And it's the only, one of the only, guess the music it is a little bit too.

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You get people kind of, you know, it's like if you discover that indie band that you
really love, for a lot of people, as soon as they blow up, their fans are not happy.

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It's like, now they've sold out.

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It's like, no, everyone else just realized what you did early on, that they love the
music.

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But we don't kind of criticize any of our other people.

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don't criticize, you know, again, Adele for being so successful, right?

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Taylor Swift.

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We don't criticize Tiger Woods for making millions from golf or baseball players or hockey
players or any sort of athletes.

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But somehow in the creative world, there's this thought that money should never enter into
it.

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ah And I'm here to say that's wrong in my belief and that's why so many artists are
starving.

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Do you think that this has happened?

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We won't delve too much into mindset and philosophy and all that, but is this happened
because they haven't achieved it yet and it feels like some threat or some fear that

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they're going to be out of that.

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They're not good enough because their thing isn't selling.

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It's a self-fulfilling prophecy almost for sure.

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mindset.

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If you don't believe you can make a living from your art, you won't, right?

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If you don't believe you can be successful, if you do believe you can be successful, you
will.

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But there is a real kind of thing that permeates the whole arts.

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Like, I have so many people, adults now, that are in my art academy that when they were
young, you know, they had a real interest in art.

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And they were discouraged from pursuing it in any meaningful way because the common wisdom
was you are not gonna be able to make a living from it, right?

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From guidance counselors, from parents, whatever.

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And it's simply not...

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Not true.

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What do we make though of all the, for me being an outsider in the art world, if you gave
me a pencil, piece of charcoal or a paint brush, you do not want to see the outcome.

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I'm telling you, you don't.

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I'm sure if I spent more time, I would get a little bit better, but I have a brother that
you give him a pencil and the things he creates is just, he was born this way.

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But what do we make of people in the past, these really well-known artists?

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that they didn't make any money and they were poor while they were living.

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Yeah.

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But once they were dead, it caught on in their paintings became worth millions.

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Like, should we, should we take solace in that?

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Should we be okay with that?

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Should artists be like, well, I might be poor now, but someday when I'm gone, no, it'll be
worth millions.

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Absolutely not.

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The reason those stories came about, and Van Gogh was the one everybody talks about the
most, like his life was so miserable, he killed himself, right?

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But it's funny, he's the one a lot of artists hold up to as some kind of noble example.

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It's like, that's not who you want as a role model.

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The reason that happened, that happened many, many times over the course of the years was
because there was gatekeepers, right?

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There was people that had the ability to either have you work

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Shown or not shown.

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And for him, was Goop Eels.

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His brother actually worked for one of the biggest art dealers in Europe, but he couldn't
even get Goop Eels to carry Vincent's work.

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But once Vincent died and his brother's wife actually went around, collected a bunch of
his stuff, put a show on, once people saw his work, that's why he took off, because people

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loved the work.

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Well, now there's no gatekeepers.

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We have social media.

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We have art festivals where you just pay your money and you hang up your work.

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So you have the ability to get your work out there in front of people.

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um And then the public decides.

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And that's one of the biggest things, I think, too, that artists don't understand is that
there's no one art world.

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There's a bunch of different art villages.

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And one art village is the village of contemporary museums, universities, where
postmodernism dominates.

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That's where you have a banana duct taped to the wall.

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That's where you have the meat dress.

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That's where you have, there was an actual exhibition in a very well-known gallery in
London of invisible works of art, right?

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Where people just come and talk about it.

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And it's all about what did the artists think?

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What did the artists feel?

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But here, people don't actually buy the work hanging in their homes.

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There's government grants or when they are big purchases, it's by kind of big
institutions.

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And I'm not in that village.

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I live in the village that I call commercial sales.

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And that is the village where real people

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buy my art or buy my prints to take them home and hang them on their walls in their home
or in their offices.

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And that is a huge village.

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And I think that's the village that most of us, we start, you know, if you're drawn to
art, you want to start painting and drawing, that's what you want to be doing, right?

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You want to be going in there and creating work that you really love.

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And here's the thing about the village of commercial sales, that despite all of the kind
of

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pressure over the last 50, 60 years to push postmodernism, conceptual art, know, pile of
bricks with a feather on it type of thing.

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The vast majority of the public and the art buying public still values the things that we
as a civilization have valued in artists since the dawn of time.

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They value skill, they value beauty, they value craft, they value mastery.

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And in this world, it's not about what I thought or what I felt when I was creating the
work.

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It's what you feel when you see it or what the public feels when they see it.

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And the fact now that we have with social media, again, with art festivals, all of these
ways to get your work seen, that the public decides who is successful and who is not.

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It's not some art critic, it's not an art professor.

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ah And so just understanding that is huge.

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Because what happens with lot of artists is they're like, maybe they went to university
and they got a degree kind of focusing on post-modernism.

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And so they're like, okay, well,

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I want to show a little bit of skill in my work here, but it's also some deeper meaning.

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I want to comment on, you know, on capitalism or whatever.

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So they show work with a little bit of meaning and a little bit of skill and nobody bites
because there's no village that appreciates that.

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You're either all in on the, on the, postmodernist village, or if you're all in on
actually creating work that people want to buy, then that's a conversation now, but what

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do you need to do and what does your art have to do to actually get enough people to love
your work?

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that you can make a good living.

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So what has to be done?

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oh it just aware?

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Is it start out with just awareness?

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want to know.

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out with awareness that that's what you need to do.

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And so again, what is this, what does this community value?

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All those things I talked about, right?

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Mastery, craft, skill.

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um So you need to master all of the skills first.

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You need to master drawing, you need to master composition, you need to master color, you
need to master different brush techniques, all of that kind of thing.

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You just have to become incredibly skillful.

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And then you need to find a way to create work that people absolutely love.

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where it stops them in their tracks and they just go, my God, I want to have that with a
unique voice.

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And it's the same as in music, right?

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If you watch American Idol, you watch The Voice, there's all kinds of these people come
on.

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They've got beautiful technical voices and they all kind of sound the same.

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And they end up just being corporate singers.

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But then you see someone that comes in that might not even have as much skill technically,
but they've got a unique voice and a unique sound that as soon as you hear it, you go, my

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God, and if that's what you want,

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That's the only person that does it.

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You need to develop that within your art too.

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So you need to have great work with a unique voice.

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And we define great work in this village as work that stops people in their tracks, takes
their breath away.

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It inspires that biblical feeling of coveting, right?

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They just see it and go, I want to take that home with me.

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If you can do that with a unique voice, you can make a very good living as an artist.

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you until or unless you do that.

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It's going to be like you're always just pushing a boulder up a hill.

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And most artists stop before they get there and they spend their whole life trying to
market their, eh, pretty good work.

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And the problem is there's a million artists out there creating, eh, pretty good work.

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And then it just comes down to who's the best value, who's the cheapest, and that's the
only way you have to differentiate.

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Yeah, you don't want to be a commodity, right?

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That's what it seems like so many are.

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And it's just like, think of it this way, anything, if you wanna make your living doing
anything that people actually do as a hobby, you need to be great, right?

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You talked about mastery.

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You can't be really good and make a living on the PGA Tour.

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You can't be really good and make a living as a professional athlete or as a musician.

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You gotta be great, right?

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You can be really good as an accountant and make an incredible living because you don't
have people giving away doing your tax returns for free on the weekend.

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But there are all kinds of, we all know artists, friends who are hobbyists or even people
early in their career who are giving art away.

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There's people at art festivals that are selling paintings for a hundred or two hundred
dollars.

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So there's no lack of low cost art out there for people.

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You're competing with people, like I say, who are just giving it away.

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So you need to be great and people don't pay and they're not going to pay a lot for just
pretty good or moderately competent.

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so that's the biggest thing.

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You touched on something where you said become, need to master all these different
categories and areas, but then you need to figure out what people want.

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Yes.

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See that.

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think there would be, correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm not, I'm not in the system of,
you know, all the artists in the world.

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A lot of people would say that's not authentic.

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Come on, Tim, that's not authentic, but you're meeting the market.

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There's something called product market fit.

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Yep.

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And if a business talks about product market fit.

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You're making an argument, correct me if I'm wrong, that an artist needs to the same
thing.

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Yeah, that's the thing.

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It's not about you just doing what you love without regard to whether people appreciate
it.

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That can be a wonderful hobby.

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But let's be clear, it's a hobby.

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If you want to make a living from your art, you need to, but you do need to find a way
where three things can happen.

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Where you love the process of creating the work more than anything else.

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Where you love and are proud of the work and enough of the public, Capital L loves the
work.

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that they are gonna buy your work and at a rate that you can't keep up with.

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And there is a way to do all three.

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You don't wanna get into a situation where you're just kind of chasing a market.

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You go, oh, Western art's big.

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I don't really like Western art, but I'm gonna do that to make a living.

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No, that's not it at all.

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But what you do need to do is once you've mastered all these skills, you seek out
influences.

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This is just like music, right?

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Some of the best people now,

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It's like when you talk about their history, they had all kinds of influences.

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They played maybe classical music when they were a kid.

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They took lessons and then they were in a garage band playing punk.

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And then they were in the university band and they played in a country band for a while.

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And then they tried something else.

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And then all of these influences that led, because your skill, what we call talent is
really just four things.

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It's your skill, your knowledge, your experience and your creativity.

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And so seeking out all of these influences and spending time there, you're increasing your
skill, you're increasing your knowledge, your experience and your creativity.

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And then what you need to do is every once in a while you go in into what's called pure
process mode where you're saying, okay, I've now amassed all of this stuff, all of these

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skills, knowledge, experience.

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Now I'm really gonna push my creativity and just try and put these things together in
different ways.

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Try different subject matters.

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Try kind of just, well, what if I did this?

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What if I took this thing I learned from this artist, but I matched it with what I learned
over here from this artist?

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What if I put those two things together?

209
00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:34,761
And you're just playing that what if game.

210
00:14:34,761 --> 00:14:36,541
And that's called process.

211
00:14:36,541 --> 00:14:44,735
And the important thing about process mode is when you're in process mode, you're doing
something you don't know how to do that you've never done before.

212
00:14:44,735 --> 00:14:46,846
And there's a very good chance it will fail.

213
00:14:46,898 --> 00:14:53,541
Um, and so what you need to know when you go into process mode is that failure is a likely
outcome and it's okay.

214
00:14:53,541 --> 00:14:56,602
You need to give permission for the thing to fail.

215
00:14:56,602 --> 00:14:56,952
Right.

216
00:14:56,952 --> 00:15:01,924
If you go, you go, what if I try this, try this, try that, and you painted dogs breakfast.

217
00:15:01,924 --> 00:15:03,935
It was a successful painting exercise.

218
00:15:03,935 --> 00:15:04,595
Cause guess what?

219
00:15:04,595 --> 00:15:08,927
You just learned what not to do next time when you end up in this situation.

220
00:15:08,927 --> 00:15:12,549
But when you're in that process mode, that's where you have breakthroughs, right?

221
00:15:12,549 --> 00:15:16,480
That's where you'll make create a painting better than anything you've ever done before.

222
00:15:16,494 --> 00:15:21,055
Or the painting may fail, but you go, wow, what happened in this little corner?

223
00:15:21,055 --> 00:15:22,236
I really like that.

224
00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:25,258
Okay, now I'm going to kind of focus on that.

225
00:15:25,258 --> 00:15:30,900
And when you're doing all of this stuff, you're keenly focused on three things.

226
00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,821
How much did I love the experience of creating that in that way?

227
00:15:34,821 --> 00:15:36,942
How much did I love that process?

228
00:15:37,002 --> 00:15:39,823
How much do I love the finished work?

229
00:15:40,004 --> 00:15:42,865
And then what's the reaction of other people who see the work?

230
00:15:42,865 --> 00:15:46,376
And you let those three things guide you.

231
00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:48,631
And you're always digging deeper.

232
00:15:48,631 --> 00:15:49,591
You're digging deeper.

233
00:15:49,591 --> 00:15:52,913
First of all, where you love the process and you love the finished work.

234
00:15:52,913 --> 00:15:58,515
But then you put that work out in front of the public and it's like if they just go out,
that's nice.

235
00:15:58,515 --> 00:15:59,836
Then this isn't it.

236
00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:08,369
So it's like back into process mode, back pushing your creativity until you reach that
thing where you go, wow, I love this.

237
00:16:08,369 --> 00:16:09,660
I love the process.

238
00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:13,142
And then you put it out there and then the world goes crazy over it.

239
00:16:13,142 --> 00:16:14,686
And then if you want.

240
00:16:14,686 --> 00:16:16,857
you can ride that pony into the sunset.

241
00:16:16,857 --> 00:16:17,357
But that's it.

242
00:16:17,357 --> 00:16:19,088
You need to love what you're doing.

243
00:16:19,088 --> 00:16:20,018
So it is authentic.

244
00:16:20,018 --> 00:16:21,689
You're not chasing something else.

245
00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:27,271
You're just trying to find it's like, it's like if you're if you're the boss, you're
trying to find Bruce Springsteen, right?

246
00:16:27,271 --> 00:16:28,632
You can start out.

247
00:16:28,632 --> 00:16:34,554
you're trying all this stuff to kind of find out who you are, or whether it's Bob Dylan or
whoever.

248
00:16:34,656 --> 00:16:40,549
I one time, I saw an interview one time with Charlie Rose was interviewing Phil Collins.

249
00:16:40,549 --> 00:16:41,619
I'm going to date myself.

250
00:16:41,619 --> 00:16:47,292
He's, he's, know, people now in their twenties and thirties probably don't know who he is,
but he was a really good singer.

251
00:16:47,292 --> 00:16:52,144
um So good.

252
00:16:52,144 --> 00:16:58,437
But Charlie Rose asked him, and this, this actually is a metaphor for what artists should
do and what you're arguing.

253
00:16:58,437 --> 00:17:01,718
Charlie Rose ripped off like eight of his top songs.

254
00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:09,137
ripped him off and all of us would know him and he said, hey, of all these songs, which
one was most impactful and do you like the most?

255
00:17:09,439 --> 00:17:11,981
And Phil Collins said, none of them.

256
00:17:12,382 --> 00:17:16,466
He said, they're just the audience and crowds favorite, so I play them.

257
00:17:16,642 --> 00:17:17,343
Yeah.

258
00:17:17,343 --> 00:17:18,183
Yeah.

259
00:17:18,183 --> 00:17:20,565
You could see, so I'll tell you a little thing.

260
00:17:20,565 --> 00:17:26,078
um You can see behind me, I've got a picture and in my thing that I'd become known for.

261
00:17:26,078 --> 00:17:32,293
I'm very, very big part of the business is teaching other artists, but I'm still very
involved in creating painting, selling paintings, selling my prints.

262
00:17:32,293 --> 00:17:34,694
And I've had a very good career on that.

263
00:17:34,835 --> 00:17:40,719
And the thing that I have really become known for is the sun shining through the trees.

264
00:17:40,719 --> 00:17:42,570
That's been my motif.

265
00:17:42,570 --> 00:17:45,912
I am in people always say you are a master at painting a light.

266
00:17:45,912 --> 00:17:47,993
People often think like, you have a flashlight?

267
00:17:47,993 --> 00:17:51,344
Like, how do you make that shine so bright and everything?

268
00:17:51,424 --> 00:17:59,928
And I do, and that's also why you need to love the thing that the public goes crazy over,
because when it hits, you're going to be asked to do a lot of it.

269
00:17:59,928 --> 00:18:04,310
um And I remember an interview with Rod Stewart.

270
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:06,801
so again, because music and painting, there's so much in there.

271
00:18:06,801 --> 00:18:09,492
And the interview asked him, do you ever get tired of playing Maggie Mae?

272
00:18:09,492 --> 00:18:12,533
um And he said, yeah, you know what?

273
00:18:12,693 --> 00:18:14,476
There are certain songs.

274
00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:18,107
that, you know, I'd be okay not playing them for a while.

275
00:18:18,107 --> 00:18:26,429
But he said, you know what, these people that out there that buy my music and come to my
concerts, they've given me a fabulous living because they love my music.

276
00:18:26,429 --> 00:18:36,052
And I know there may be a person out there that's waited their whole life to be able to
afford a ticket and get a ticket when I happen to be in their town.

277
00:18:36,412 --> 00:18:39,573
And that person wants to hear Maggie Mae.

278
00:18:39,573 --> 00:18:42,654
So I am going to play Maggie Mae.

279
00:18:42,702 --> 00:18:52,282
And so a few buddies of mine we talk about it and it's like, you know I'll do another
painting with the Sun in it and they're like Maggie Mae It's like you're darn right Maggie

280
00:18:52,282 --> 00:18:59,362
Mae buddy because the same thing someone may have been waiting my works not cheap and
someone may have been waiting a long time It's like, okay We're ready to plunk out a few

281
00:18:59,362 --> 00:19:07,922
thousand dollars on an original and they've been following my career Maybe they bought
prints or whatever, but they really really want what I'm known for which is the Sun coming

282
00:19:07,922 --> 00:19:12,822
through the trees So I'll do that it wouldn't have been a

283
00:19:13,069 --> 00:19:18,330
authentic if I thought, this is a motif that I think can make money.

284
00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:20,890
It was something that organically happened.

285
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:26,410
And when I painted the first Sun through the trees, I actually thought this might be the
best painting I've ever done.

286
00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:29,910
And then when it got seen, the reaction was over the top.

287
00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:40,120
And then the first time I actually had a body of work of this subject matter in this
style, I went from making about 25,000 total sales a year before

288
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,521
to doing 28,000 sales in a weekend of this work.

289
00:19:43,521 --> 00:19:48,734
And that's what I mean about the public not being shy once you hit that thing.

290
00:19:48,734 --> 00:19:57,397
And then I'd made a very good career on kind of continuing just to kind of dig deeper on
that theme and put that work out there.

291
00:19:57,777 --> 00:20:01,479
And then now into the teaching and the online academy and everything else.

292
00:20:01,479 --> 00:20:04,040
But it's like, this is still what I love doing.

293
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,302
Every year I give myself about three weeks or a month where I go back into process mode.

294
00:20:09,344 --> 00:20:11,816
often think, I don't know, maybe there's something else.

295
00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:19,733
Maybe there's something else that I could do that would be even better that I would love
more and the public would love more.

296
00:20:19,733 --> 00:20:29,772
So every year I give myself about three weeks or a month where I just go into that pure
process mode and I'm in the studio and I'm just trying stuff, playing around, you know,

297
00:20:29,772 --> 00:20:32,144
and just trying to push that creativity.

298
00:20:32,144 --> 00:20:37,618
And to date, I still haven't found anything that I love painting as much as...

299
00:20:37,922 --> 00:20:38,854
the stuff that I do.

300
00:20:38,854 --> 00:20:42,911
And so if I ever do, you'll never see any more of the sun coming through the trees.

301
00:20:42,911 --> 00:20:47,188
But in the meantime, it's like, yeah, I'm to sing Maggie Mae.

302
00:20:47,426 --> 00:20:51,049
How long had you been an artist?

303
00:20:51,049 --> 00:21:02,607
Not saying the eight year old Tim, but how long do you really think that you saw yourself
as quality and skilled from the time that moment happened to when you painted the sun

304
00:21:02,607 --> 00:21:06,640
through the trees and you went, wow, this might be the best painting I've ever painted.

305
00:21:07,882 --> 00:21:09,032
period of time?

306
00:21:09,046 --> 00:21:19,446
So I studied art as a kid in high school, commercial art, took graphic design in college,
and then at 21 just kind of made the decision I'm not talented enough to be an artist.

307
00:21:19,446 --> 00:21:21,786
I should have just put a yet on the end of that.

308
00:21:21,786 --> 00:21:26,646
would have been a lot more accurate, because I'm a heck of a lot more talented than I was
then.

309
00:21:26,646 --> 00:21:32,546
But I got really serious about my painting probably around 1996.

310
00:21:32,718 --> 00:21:35,870
m and then started doing it as a bit of a side hustle.

311
00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:40,263
I was a high realism portrait painter and I actually started doing a lot of commissioned
portraits.

312
00:21:40,263 --> 00:21:49,799
I quit the police force in 2000 and I was painting full time for five years until that
force window came out.

313
00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:53,231
The first two years I was doing a lot of commissioned portraits.

314
00:21:53,231 --> 00:21:58,134
oh I started painting people because when I was getting back into art and you know.

315
00:21:58,252 --> 00:21:59,413
I'm an analytical guy.

316
00:21:59,413 --> 00:22:03,046
was a detective in our commercial crime unit investigating frauds over $2 million.

317
00:22:03,046 --> 00:22:04,977
So like I'm a research guy.

318
00:22:04,977 --> 00:22:07,389
It's like, I'm going to get back serious about my art.

319
00:22:07,389 --> 00:22:08,631
What should I paint?

320
00:22:08,631 --> 00:22:11,513
You know, and all everything that I read and said, well, paint what you love.

321
00:22:11,513 --> 00:22:14,795
So it's like, well, I had two young boys who were like three and five years old.

322
00:22:14,795 --> 00:22:16,897
So I started doing paintings of my boys.

323
00:22:16,897 --> 00:22:19,529
And then that led to me doing portraits of other people.

324
00:22:19,529 --> 00:22:28,044
And then when I left, I thought I was going to make my living as a commissioned portrait
painter only to realize that while I loved painting people,

325
00:22:28,044 --> 00:22:31,956
the way I wanted to paint them to create like a good piece of art.

326
00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:36,348
I hated painting other people's people the way they wanted me to paint them.

327
00:22:36,348 --> 00:22:39,139
And all of a sudden it had turned into a job.

328
00:22:39,259 --> 00:22:41,880
And so that was two years after I left the force.

329
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:52,595
um And then I spent about three years where I was painting portraits about half of my time
and the other half, was totally in that mode of seeking out influences, trying to learn

330
00:22:52,595 --> 00:22:54,006
what I could learn from them.

331
00:22:54,006 --> 00:22:54,510
And then

332
00:22:54,510 --> 00:22:58,651
and then spending time in process trying to create something unique for me.

333
00:22:58,651 --> 00:23:03,273
And so it was like a five year process after I was full time until that happened.

334
00:23:03,273 --> 00:23:06,254
But the thing is too, I had no idea what I was doing.

335
00:23:06,254 --> 00:23:10,375
Now I can actually articulate what happened and how I got there.

336
00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:20,844
I've had a number of students that have been able to make that kind of leap in one to two
years by kind of following this process of seeking, like mastering the skills.

337
00:23:20,844 --> 00:23:22,955
looking out the things that I call dominoes, right?

338
00:23:22,955 --> 00:23:25,316
Like what's the one thing, this isn't business too.

339
00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:34,400
What's the one thing that you're not really good at right now that if you could master
that would have the biggest impact on you and your business and career going forward.

340
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:42,683
And we often tend to just avoid things that bring up that weakness as opposed to say, no,
I need to tackle that and make that a strength and master it.

341
00:23:42,683 --> 00:23:49,306
And so kind of doing this process, you can really fast forward um the timeline.

342
00:23:49,306 --> 00:23:50,996
I spent a lot of time

343
00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:55,573
focused on things that really didn't move the needle at all and that really were a waste
of time.

344
00:23:55,573 --> 00:24:02,278
And a lot of time following advice that I believe now is just inherently wrong that I hear
artists getting all the time.

345
00:24:02,695 --> 00:24:12,097
What when you painted the first one the Sun through the trees and you said this might be
the best painting ever You know why what about it that you felt that and obviously you

346
00:24:12,097 --> 00:24:14,371
were right What about it?

347
00:24:14,371 --> 00:24:19,884
What happened that you looked at that and said it's not just a feeling is it or is that
all it is?

348
00:24:19,884 --> 00:24:21,894
No, well, was.

349
00:24:21,894 --> 00:24:24,757
I just went, wow, that is so much better.

350
00:24:24,757 --> 00:24:32,202
Like, just know that, like, I'd spent, by this time, I was, I think at that time, I was
president of the Canadian Watercolor Society.

351
00:24:32,202 --> 00:24:35,684
So I'd associated with a lot of really great artists, right?

352
00:24:35,684 --> 00:24:37,445
And I knew a lot of really great art.

353
00:24:37,445 --> 00:24:46,486
And I know that feeling when the painting, you know, it's just like, you know, the first
time you hear a song that you often, you know, that's gonna be a hit.

354
00:24:46,486 --> 00:24:46,776
Right?

355
00:24:46,776 --> 00:24:47,737
You just know it.

356
00:24:47,737 --> 00:24:53,853
And it's the same thing when you see a painting that just reaches out and makes you just
feel something.

357
00:24:53,853 --> 00:24:57,497
That was the first time I'd ever created a piece that did that to me.

358
00:24:57,497 --> 00:25:06,305
One of my own pieces and me going, my God, is, that's up and that's up there with the
artist whose work I do put on that pedestal.

359
00:25:06,305 --> 00:25:07,206
Right?

360
00:25:07,206 --> 00:25:11,590
And so again, I thought that, but it really, it...

361
00:25:11,778 --> 00:25:14,870
Whether I felt that or not didn't really matter until the public decided.

362
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:18,021
And so the story there is I was doing an art festival.

363
00:25:18,021 --> 00:25:24,985
um And at the time, I was all over the map creatively because I was in that process mode.

364
00:25:24,985 --> 00:25:31,669
um And so if you came into my tent, you would see some watercolor portraits, some oil
portraits.

365
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:40,116
You'd see some landscapes, some still lifes, some of them very impressionistic, some of
them surreal, some in casein, some in oil, some like...

366
00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:43,649
every all over the map people would often ask me is this all your work?

367
00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:54,697
And I said yeah, I'm because I'm trying to find that voice right so this particular show
that piece was there and the they opened the show at like 10 o'clock a couple walked into

368
00:25:54,697 --> 00:26:04,485
my booth like five after 10 they bought that painting and then the best thing that ever
happened to me in my career they said we've got a we just got here and we want to shop so

369
00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:08,296
is it okay if we just leave it we'll pay you now and we'll come back.

370
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:11,032
I could have sold that painting every five minutes.

371
00:26:11,032 --> 00:26:13,913
Everybody that came into my booth just went, my God.

372
00:26:13,913 --> 00:26:15,274
And then it's like, sorry, it's sold.

373
00:26:15,274 --> 00:26:16,054
Sorry, it's sold.

374
00:26:16,054 --> 00:26:19,937
And then, and then what happened is they were so disappointed that piece was sold.

375
00:26:19,937 --> 00:26:21,397
They just walk out of my booth.

376
00:26:21,397 --> 00:26:27,661
So I finally, about half an hour, I took it down and wrapped it up because people weren't
looking at my other work.

377
00:26:27,661 --> 00:26:31,643
So, I mean, but that's the kind of reaction that you have to have to the work.

378
00:26:31,643 --> 00:26:36,556
Um, and then the next, the next thing was there was a charity auction.

379
00:26:36,846 --> 00:26:40,466
fundraiser for the Burlington Art Center, big art center here.

380
00:26:40,466 --> 00:26:42,526
And this was like a black tie affair.

381
00:26:42,526 --> 00:26:50,106
This was this was something that Robert Bateman, who's famous Canadian artist, famous
internationally, may have heard of him, does a lot of wildlife.

382
00:26:50,166 --> 00:26:54,506
His he had actually been involved in in supplying funding to get this started.

383
00:26:54,506 --> 00:27:03,608
And he always donated a small either original or pencil sketch for the auction that would
go for like $5,000 or whatever $7,000.

384
00:27:03,608 --> 00:27:07,939
But so there was well-heeled people here, you know, looking to spend money.

385
00:27:07,939 --> 00:27:12,360
And so I put two pieces in this new style into that auction.

386
00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:17,982
They both sold at auction for double what I was charging for my work at that point.

387
00:27:17,982 --> 00:27:27,114
And the next morning, one of the ladies that was involved in the, um, the fund, the
committee, she called me and asked me if she could commission a piece at the price that I

388
00:27:27,114 --> 00:27:29,385
put on them, not the auction price.

389
00:27:29,385 --> 00:27:33,290
And so was kind of like, okay, that's the, that's what it looks like.

390
00:27:33,290 --> 00:27:35,512
right when you find that thing.

391
00:27:35,512 --> 00:27:47,872
ah And then I very quickly went from, that first year where, um again, I think that first
year that the style came out, I went from making 25,000 the year before to probably making

392
00:27:47,872 --> 00:27:48,882
about 50,000.

393
00:27:48,882 --> 00:27:57,719
And then within a few years, I was up into six figures and then multiple six figures
without me really doing anything business wise.

394
00:27:57,719 --> 00:27:58,878
It was just that.

395
00:27:58,878 --> 00:28:01,870
As people saw the work, more galleries wanted to carry my work.

396
00:28:01,870 --> 00:28:05,522
More people wanted to buy my work as the demand went up, the prices went up.

397
00:28:05,522 --> 00:28:10,585
So my prices went up by five times over the course of the next five or six years.

398
00:28:10,585 --> 00:28:14,787
So even with just doing the same amount of paintings, my income was growing dramatically.

399
00:28:14,787 --> 00:28:23,422
Um, and then I started looking at, at, at, you know, but at that point, I'm still trading
time for dollars, right?

400
00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:27,962
It's like, as soon as you stop painting, the faucet gets turned off.

401
00:28:27,962 --> 00:28:31,504
And so that's when I got into doing limited edition prints of my work.

402
00:28:31,504 --> 00:28:39,387
So we, started self publishing just small and then, and I was actually picked up by one of
the big publishers, Milpond press.

403
00:28:39,387 --> 00:28:45,630
Um, and they were selling my work and doing well, but there had been a thing happened in
publishing.

404
00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:52,892
was a time when, you know, the top kind of artists would do limited edition print run of
30,000 prints, right?

405
00:28:53,593 --> 00:28:54,864
That was back then.

406
00:28:54,864 --> 00:28:55,594
Yeah.

407
00:28:55,594 --> 00:28:56,200
And.

408
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,372
And so the artists only gets typically about 7%, 8 % of retail.

409
00:29:01,372 --> 00:29:07,493
But when you're 30,000 prints and they're selling for four or 500 bucks, 600 bucks a pop,
that's good.

410
00:29:07,493 --> 00:29:11,414
But everybody was buying these prints thinking that they were investments, right?

411
00:29:11,414 --> 00:29:12,785
Almost like stock certificates.

412
00:29:12,785 --> 00:29:16,196
And there was actually a re-aftermarket where stuff would go up.

413
00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:20,087
But then it was one of the big crashes in the nineties of the stock market.

414
00:29:20,087 --> 00:29:22,657
And all of a sudden everybody's, everybody's in tight spaces.

415
00:29:22,657 --> 00:29:24,632
Well, I'll sell my Robert Bateman.

416
00:29:24,632 --> 00:29:32,814
prints or my Trish romance or Kincaid, whatever, only to realize everybody else had a
stack of them under their bed saving for a rainy day.

417
00:29:32,814 --> 00:29:35,437
so the price just plummeted.

418
00:29:35,437 --> 00:29:41,262
ah And then people started saying, well, if it's going to be limited edition, I really
want it limited of a hundred.

419
00:29:41,262 --> 00:29:42,602
That's what I was gonna throw out.

420
00:29:42,602 --> 00:29:43,822
I was gonna throw out a hundred.

421
00:29:43,822 --> 00:29:44,163
Yeah.

422
00:29:44,163 --> 00:29:52,132
So now with the big publisher, know, they did a hundred thousand that first year that I
was with a big publisher, they did over a hundred thousand in sales of my work and I got

423
00:29:52,132 --> 00:29:52,833
like $6,000.

424
00:29:52,833 --> 00:30:00,820
And I thought, yeah, this, this is not, um, this is not really a, a model that I want to
support.

425
00:30:00,820 --> 00:30:03,524
Would you rather do 10 and you make 50?

426
00:30:03,882 --> 00:30:04,782
Exactly, right?

427
00:30:04,782 --> 00:30:05,963
So that's the thing.

428
00:30:05,963 --> 00:30:09,324
that's when I got, and there'd been some dramatic changes.

429
00:30:09,324 --> 00:30:15,247
There's been so much change in terms of like, who are the gatekeepers and who has the
power here?

430
00:30:15,247 --> 00:30:18,278
Because at one time you needed to get this done through Offset Litho.

431
00:30:18,278 --> 00:30:26,902
So it was a major investment to, know, my dad actually was a head pressman at one of the
top fine art publishing companies in Toronto.

432
00:30:26,902 --> 00:30:31,884
Well, to get a fine art print on paper, you needed a press that was like,

433
00:30:31,884 --> 00:30:39,797
You know, the size of a Mac truck that took that was caught worth over a million dollars
took like about six skilled tradesmen to run the press.

434
00:30:39,797 --> 00:30:40,928
needed the photographers.

435
00:30:40,928 --> 00:30:43,559
You needed the film strippers, the dot etchers.

436
00:30:43,559 --> 00:30:45,280
You needed all these skilled tradesmen.

437
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,880
So it was very expensive to create prints.

438
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:54,404
And it was only, it was only worth it if you were going to order them all at once, like
order 500 prints or whatever.

439
00:30:54,404 --> 00:30:59,606
Well, then with the advent of digital printing and G clay printers now.

440
00:30:59,712 --> 00:31:01,324
you can do it all on your own.

441
00:31:01,324 --> 00:31:12,753
do all of my own publishing and with all of the equipment together, know, the camera,
computer and printer, you're looking at $25,000 and I can print stuff that my dad, he just

442
00:31:12,753 --> 00:31:13,898
passed away last year.

443
00:31:13,898 --> 00:31:23,232
He a very good life, but he used to come and look at the stuff that I did and he said
nothing in his career that ever came off their presses came close to what I can do.

444
00:31:23,342 --> 00:31:27,901
And so now it's like, okay, why am I giving someone 95 % of this?

445
00:31:27,922 --> 00:31:34,142
If I can find a way to market myself, then my margins are gonna be like 90 % on it.

446
00:31:34,142 --> 00:31:38,402
So that we got into the whole kind of publishing side of things.

447
00:31:38,402 --> 00:31:40,182
And then it's like, how are we gonna market it?

448
00:31:40,182 --> 00:31:42,542
So well, here comes social media.

449
00:31:42,574 --> 00:31:48,057
Technology is good and bad, mean, technology led to you being able to have all that
equipment for 25,000.

450
00:31:48,057 --> 00:31:52,140
And I'm sure that's what you're doing with the book and with the art academy.

451
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:53,340
But here's the question too.

452
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:56,332
What do we make of a guy like Banksy these days?

453
00:31:56,674 --> 00:31:59,090
That's a whole different village, right?

454
00:31:59,090 --> 00:31:59,704
That's in

455
00:31:59,704 --> 00:32:03,925
You here's the question that I want you to push back a guy not from the outside.

456
00:32:03,925 --> 00:32:18,221
Do you think there's an argument out here that there will be someday in the future that
none of us are going to live to see a hundred years, 200 years that artists and artistry

457
00:32:18,221 --> 00:32:22,822
and paintings, the physical won't be valuable.

458
00:32:23,234 --> 00:32:24,480
I don't think so.

459
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,253
think, and you're talking about AI, right?

460
00:32:27,253 --> 00:32:28,806
think that even.

461
00:32:28,806 --> 00:32:43,203
mean, all of it, we that I could put it in and say, make me a sun behind the trees image,
similar to the way that Tim Packer would do and put Mark Perkins philosophy laid on top of

462
00:32:43,203 --> 00:32:43,713
it.

463
00:32:43,713 --> 00:32:45,954
And really quick, it's going to give me something.

464
00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:47,875
Yeah, but here's the thing.

465
00:32:48,395 --> 00:32:51,537
What do most people feel about AI?

466
00:32:51,537 --> 00:32:54,859
There's two ways people feel about it, right?

467
00:32:54,859 --> 00:32:59,511
They either welcome it as an opportunity, which I'm actually part of that too.

468
00:32:59,511 --> 00:33:08,520
I welcome it as an opportunity for me to create tasks that I used to have to spend a lot
of time doing, or I used to have to hire someone to do, I can do very quickly.

469
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,539
That part is awesome.

470
00:33:09,539 --> 00:33:09,953
It's awesome.

471
00:33:09,953 --> 00:33:10,772
That's great.

472
00:33:10,772 --> 00:33:17,947
But people are really pushing back against the fact that was this touched by the hand of
an artist?

473
00:33:17,947 --> 00:33:20,115
And I think that's always going to be there.

474
00:33:20,115 --> 00:33:31,846
I think that the more that AI gets out there, the more that things that are created solely
by the hand of an artist, craftsman, whatever you want to call them, that is actually

475
00:33:31,846 --> 00:33:34,038
going to have more value to people.

476
00:33:34,038 --> 00:33:35,189
And it's the same way.

477
00:33:35,189 --> 00:33:40,522
mean, I could paint a painting that you probably couldn't tell the difference from a
Monet.

478
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:40,766
Right?

479
00:33:40,766 --> 00:33:42,967
Because once you get a certain amount of skills, you can do it.

480
00:33:42,967 --> 00:33:47,268
That painting that I do might be worth a few hundred or a thousand dollars.

481
00:33:47,268 --> 00:33:51,489
The one that Monet did is going to be worth a couple million because Monet did it.

482
00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:52,109
Right?

483
00:33:52,109 --> 00:33:55,030
And so I think it's the same kind of thing is going to happen.

484
00:33:55,030 --> 00:34:02,572
There is a real hunger, I think, in people in the way that, and there's a lot of people
are just terrified of AI.

485
00:34:02,572 --> 00:34:03,113
Right?

486
00:34:03,113 --> 00:34:08,684
So a lot of people are just like, they are not going to go near anything in terms of
buying something to come into their house.

487
00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:13,832
that was created by AI because now that's just furthering the anxiety every time they look
at that.

488
00:34:13,832 --> 00:34:17,273
But I use AI a lot for YouTube.

489
00:34:17,273 --> 00:34:19,214
This is a perfect example.

490
00:34:20,354 --> 00:34:26,257
I do a lot on YouTube and that's probably the best place that I've found to market my
online art academy.

491
00:34:26,257 --> 00:34:37,752
But when I create a YouTube video, what I used to do two years ago was go through the
whole video afterwards, marking out the timestamps, creating the timestamps.

492
00:34:37,752 --> 00:34:43,486
creating the description, then going in on YouTube and putting the keywords in.

493
00:34:43,486 --> 00:34:53,142
Now, I just get it automatically, give me the captions, I'm gonna export that as a text
file, then I'm gonna go on ChatGPT and I'm gonna say, here's the transcript from my latest

494
00:34:53,142 --> 00:34:53,572
video.

495
00:34:53,572 --> 00:34:55,933
It's 12 minutes and 35 seconds.

496
00:34:55,933 --> 00:34:57,284
Can you give me timestamps?

497
00:34:57,284 --> 00:34:58,635
Can you give me a description?

498
00:34:58,635 --> 00:35:04,008
And can you suggest keywords up to 500 characters with a comma and a space after them?

499
00:35:04,066 --> 00:35:08,600
That's not that used to be four or five hours of my time that was not creative at all.

500
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:18,568
It was just, and so it's taking all of this from the content that I've done that's
creative, but it's now that's time I can spend painting instead of doing that.

501
00:35:18,568 --> 00:35:27,762
So I think that AI, especially as an entrepreneur, it is a really, really good.

502
00:35:27,762 --> 00:35:40,611
It can help us with copywriting if you're not good at that at creating hooks kind of ads
all of that kind of stuff as long as it's layered on top of your Content your creativity

503
00:35:40,611 --> 00:35:42,932
not just going into AI and saying okay.

504
00:35:42,932 --> 00:35:55,351
Give me an ad or whatever But you know going in and and kind of uploading all of your
stuff right things you believe in Transcripts from you from talking speeches whatever and

505
00:35:55,351 --> 00:35:57,070
saying based on this

506
00:35:57,070 --> 00:36:00,760
Can you suggest six hooks for an ad for whatever, right?

507
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,426
That's what you used to have to pay a copywriter to do.

508
00:36:03,426 --> 00:36:04,176
Here's what's awesome.

509
00:36:04,176 --> 00:36:07,969
I think that, you know, we can get into, you know, the book that you wrote in the Academy.

510
00:36:07,969 --> 00:36:11,430
I now know from sitting here and talk us talking for 30 minutes.

511
00:36:12,211 --> 00:36:14,912
You didn't just rest on being a great artist.

512
00:36:15,073 --> 00:36:21,586
You spent time mastering marketing systems, technology and business.

513
00:36:21,586 --> 00:36:22,377
There's no doubt.

514
00:36:22,377 --> 00:36:23,397
You've done the work.

515
00:36:23,397 --> 00:36:30,621
You have done the work from a marketing perspective on how do I get the word out to tell
the world about my paintings, about what I can do.

516
00:36:30,621 --> 00:36:32,672
And I think I'm going be really honest.

517
00:36:32,856 --> 00:36:35,718
There's a lot of people who stop.

518
00:36:35,718 --> 00:36:36,549
I don't want to do that.

519
00:36:36,549 --> 00:36:37,460
I just want to be an artist.

520
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:38,581
I don't want to have to do it.

521
00:36:38,581 --> 00:36:38,971
Right.

522
00:36:38,971 --> 00:36:43,275
And so then what you're going to do is do you want to be a complainer in life and sit here
and complain?

523
00:36:43,275 --> 00:36:45,577
I have this, all this great art, but nobody will buy it.

524
00:36:45,577 --> 00:36:47,564
Well, because you won't do the other work.

525
00:36:47,564 --> 00:36:48,675
Yep, exactly.

526
00:36:48,675 --> 00:36:58,980
If you are an artist, that's, if anybody's listening here and they are an artist or they
want to be an artist, the number one thing you need to understand is that you are also an

527
00:36:58,980 --> 00:37:09,326
entrepreneur and everything that applies to every other small business owner or big
business owner, ideally if you get there, applies to you.

528
00:37:09,326 --> 00:37:11,167
It doesn't matter what they're doing.

529
00:37:11,167 --> 00:37:16,632
And it's kind of like every time, and I used to, say that to my artists all the time that

530
00:37:16,632 --> 00:37:25,409
Like if you say, I don't want to do that, just replace that with, I don't want it bad
enough to do that.

531
00:37:25,409 --> 00:37:35,097
Because one of the things that I hate, some sayings that people, you hear them trotted out
all the time, but when you're really kind of, you know, take them apart, they're harmful.

532
00:37:35,097 --> 00:37:40,281
And one of the worst ones is that if you do what you love, you'll never have to work a day
in your life.

533
00:37:40,281 --> 00:37:42,246
It's like, my God, I wish I

534
00:37:42,246 --> 00:37:43,949
You know who says that?

535
00:37:43,949 --> 00:37:46,492
People who have already made a billion dollars.

536
00:37:46,874 --> 00:37:49,637
Isn't that just such a load of crap?

537
00:37:49,826 --> 00:37:55,461
Because if you take it apart, it means, well, I shouldn't have to do anything that feels
like work then.

538
00:37:55,461 --> 00:37:56,842
I'm doing what I love, right?

539
00:37:56,842 --> 00:38:09,643
I like to replace that with, if you have the audacity to want the world to reward you with
a comfortable living, for you doing the thing that you love the most, you had better be

540
00:38:09,643 --> 00:38:12,625
willing to work harder at that than anything you've ever done in your life.

541
00:38:12,625 --> 00:38:18,029
And if you're not, then get a job and keep that thing as a hobby.

542
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:30,144
because again, if what you love is accounting, it's like, okay, but if what you love is
painting or doing pottery or stained glass or playing the guitar, these are all things

543
00:38:30,144 --> 00:38:31,926
that millions of people do as a hobby.

544
00:38:31,926 --> 00:38:37,252
ah It's like you don't get the world to reward you unless you become great at it.

545
00:38:37,252 --> 00:38:39,494
uh

546
00:38:39,570 --> 00:38:45,210
so here's what so many of the folks that are really successful in life, what they really
know.

547
00:38:45,509 --> 00:38:48,230
Nothing is happening until stuff is sold.

548
00:38:49,090 --> 00:38:50,290
That's it.

549
00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:50,750
Right?

550
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:58,670
Because to your point, if you can't sell your artwork for enough to give you a really good
livelihood, so what you can, so then you can do the thing you love.

551
00:38:58,670 --> 00:39:01,030
If that doesn't happen, it's going to be a hobby.

552
00:39:01,110 --> 00:39:01,330
Yep.

553
00:39:01,330 --> 00:39:02,370
It's not going to be your career.

554
00:39:02,370 --> 00:39:07,106
And so I think there might be some good intentions maybe from these folks saying,

555
00:39:07,106 --> 00:39:10,027
find something you love and you won't feel like you have to work a day in your life.

556
00:39:10,027 --> 00:39:12,338
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've said it just like you.

557
00:39:12,338 --> 00:39:19,090
It's like, I feel like I have to work every day, but there's still things about it I love.

558
00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:21,311
But I feel like I have to work.

559
00:39:21,311 --> 00:39:27,383
I just, I've never, and all those people, the reason why they're so disingenuous, show me
on their worst day in business.

560
00:39:27,383 --> 00:39:29,666
I guarantee they weren't loving it.

561
00:39:29,666 --> 00:39:30,266
Yep.

562
00:39:30,266 --> 00:39:30,596
Yep.

563
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:31,987
There's all kinds of stuff.

564
00:39:31,987 --> 00:39:33,448
You're a business owner, right?

565
00:39:33,448 --> 00:39:39,252
And so it's like, the thing is there's only one reason to want to do this too.

566
00:39:39,252 --> 00:39:49,898
Um, I think because for me, when I left the police force, it was a friend of mine, young
guy was murdered on the job in the line of duty.

567
00:39:49,898 --> 00:39:53,190
And then you, know, when that happens, you take stock of your life.

568
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:57,430
And I just really realized that like I had kind of walked away from art.

569
00:39:57,430 --> 00:40:03,415
And I wasn't really painting and I thought, well, when I retire, I can get back to it and
then maybe I can turn it into something.

570
00:40:03,415 --> 00:40:09,070
And then when my friend was killed and I was in my thirties at the time and so was he, I
realized there's no guarantee.

571
00:40:09,070 --> 00:40:12,283
It's like, this is, I'm an artist, but I'm not painting.

572
00:40:12,283 --> 00:40:15,666
And most people who know me don't even know that I'm an artist.

573
00:40:15,666 --> 00:40:20,671
So I just kind of decided, well, I got to get back to doing this.

574
00:40:20,671 --> 00:40:24,874
But I never ever thought that it was going to be a career.

575
00:40:24,926 --> 00:40:28,829
I just needed to get back to doing it because it was the thing I loved.

576
00:40:28,829 --> 00:40:41,547
And then I realized that when I made the decision, my wife and I made the decision for me
to leave the police force, I knew that for me to reach my ultimate potential as an artist,

577
00:40:41,547 --> 00:40:46,261
because by then I'd actually started to become pretty good and I thought, wow, I could
actually be really good.

578
00:40:46,261 --> 00:40:53,985
If I can do that every day, I'm going to get better quicker and I want to be able to get
up every day and paint.

579
00:40:54,658 --> 00:40:57,119
Well, there's only three ways to be able to do that.

580
00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:01,541
You can have a very rich supportive spouse who just says, well, you go and be fulfilled.

581
00:41:01,541 --> 00:41:02,902
I didn't have that.

582
00:41:02,902 --> 00:41:09,925
You can win the lottery or you can figure out a way to make a living from doing the thing
that you love.

583
00:41:09,925 --> 00:41:13,937
But you're going to have to spend a lot of time doing things that you don't love.

584
00:41:13,937 --> 00:41:20,420
And you're going to have to spend time doing things that you really don't want to do that
are just necessary to being a business person, right?

585
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:21,442
Because you're the...

586
00:41:21,442 --> 00:41:27,006
You're the CEO of you, whether you're an artist or whether you run a plumbing company or
doesn't matter what it is.

587
00:41:27,006 --> 00:41:31,540
But if you want to be able to do this and not have another job, you got to figure out a
way to make a living.

588
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:32,211
That's it.

589
00:41:32,211 --> 00:41:36,764
And I was just saying, people are like, well, I don't want to do that.

590
00:41:36,764 --> 00:41:37,654
That's great.

591
00:41:37,654 --> 00:41:41,138
Keep your job doing whatever you're doing and painting your spare time.

592
00:41:41,138 --> 00:41:51,118
But don't, the worst part though is like, don't come down on and disparage the people who
are actually out there doing this and making a good living.

593
00:41:51,118 --> 00:41:53,875
It's like, it's not for everyone, but it's a choice, right?

594
00:41:53,875 --> 00:41:57,340
The message here is not to say what Mark and Tim are saying.

595
00:41:57,340 --> 00:41:58,993
We're not saying don't do what you love.

596
00:41:58,993 --> 00:42:00,967
We're actually saying do what you love.

597
00:42:00,967 --> 00:42:03,502
But don't think it's not going to be work every day.

598
00:42:03,502 --> 00:42:03,842
Yeah.

599
00:42:03,842 --> 00:42:05,442
And don't think like, love golf.

600
00:42:05,442 --> 00:42:06,542
That's a perfect analogy.

601
00:42:06,542 --> 00:42:06,962
Right.

602
00:42:06,962 --> 00:42:08,082
I love golf.

603
00:42:08,082 --> 00:42:11,402
I, I have way over the 10,000 hours in golf.

604
00:42:11,402 --> 00:42:13,582
I'm still an 18 handicap.

605
00:42:13,782 --> 00:42:18,222
I know no one is going to pay me to play golf at an 18 handicap.

606
00:42:18,222 --> 00:42:19,662
Um, and it's the same thing.

607
00:42:19,662 --> 00:42:25,102
There are a lot of people out there have been painting for 30, 40, 50 years and thinking,
well, I've put in the hours.

608
00:42:25,102 --> 00:42:27,762
It's like, yeah, but you're a 15 handicapper.

609
00:42:27,822 --> 00:42:29,962
The world's not paying to watch that.

610
00:42:29,962 --> 00:42:30,422
Right.

611
00:42:30,422 --> 00:42:32,748
It's like, because you know,

612
00:42:32,748 --> 00:42:41,503
You can do something for thousands and thousands of hours and just get really good at
enjoying doing it mediocre, which is me in golf.

613
00:42:41,743 --> 00:42:46,356
Or you can spend the time on mastering the skills and improving.

614
00:42:46,356 --> 00:42:48,967
Um, and you can get great really quick.

615
00:42:48,967 --> 00:42:50,548
There's some young whippersnappers here.

616
00:42:50,548 --> 00:42:56,631
We live on a golf course up, up here in, uh, Owen sound on, uh, Georgian Bay, uh, Lake
Huron.

617
00:42:56,631 --> 00:43:01,784
And we, played with some young guys that are like 19 years old and they took up.

618
00:43:01,784 --> 00:43:06,560
golf during COVID and within four years they're shooting under par.

619
00:43:06,782 --> 00:43:10,994
But it's because they spent all of that time focusing on getting better.

620
00:43:10,994 --> 00:43:17,497
I spend all of my time just focusing on enjoying playing mediocre golf and having a few
beers with the boys.

621
00:43:17,822 --> 00:43:19,563
So why spend time?

622
00:43:19,563 --> 00:43:23,104
You've had a successful life financially.

623
00:43:23,104 --> 00:43:24,254
get to live on a golf course.

624
00:43:24,254 --> 00:43:27,735
mean, you're a guy when we first jumped on here, I went, you've got charisma.

625
00:43:27,735 --> 00:43:29,906
This is going to be a fun conversation today.

626
00:43:29,906 --> 00:43:31,587
You're you, you see the good in life.

627
00:43:31,587 --> 00:43:32,587
You're optimistic.

628
00:43:32,587 --> 00:43:33,847
You're you're a good friend.

629
00:43:33,847 --> 00:43:34,467
You're good.

630
00:43:34,467 --> 00:43:36,168
People like being around you.

631
00:43:36,168 --> 00:43:37,628
Life is good.

632
00:43:38,369 --> 00:43:40,449
Why spend time writing this book?

633
00:43:40,449 --> 00:43:41,790
You can sell your art.

634
00:43:41,790 --> 00:43:43,010
Why do this?

635
00:43:43,182 --> 00:43:46,422
Okay, I told you before there's quick questions but no quick answers.

636
00:43:46,422 --> 00:43:48,262
So it's a bit of a long one.

637
00:43:49,822 --> 00:43:55,862
I never ever, my goal was only ever to make as much money as an artist as I would have
made from my pension.

638
00:43:55,862 --> 00:43:59,282
I thought if I could get to the point where I do that, then it's a win-win.

639
00:43:59,622 --> 00:44:11,442
In 2015, I'd already had a really good year going and I had a show, this was in the end of
November, so towards the end of the year at a very upscale gallery in Toronto.

640
00:44:11,662 --> 00:44:13,414
And it was like,

641
00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:18,332
the Hollywood Disney version of an artist kind of making it.

642
00:44:18,532 --> 00:44:24,525
So the gallery, they closed at five o'clock and then were reopening at seven in the
evening for the opening of my show.

643
00:44:24,525 --> 00:44:31,778
So I was standing in the front of the gallery in the window in Yorkville, kind of the
ritzy area of Toronto, working on a painting.

644
00:44:31,778 --> 00:44:36,060
And I could see half an hour before the show, people starting to line up outside the
gallery.

645
00:44:36,060 --> 00:44:41,390
um The doors opened at seven and people piled into the gallery.

646
00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:41,966
had...

647
00:44:41,966 --> 00:44:50,606
The gallery had someone there playing live music, waiters were walking around with trays
of wine, and the red stickers were going up as pieces sold.

648
00:44:50,606 --> 00:44:54,246
And I just was sitting there kind of mentally kind of crunching the numbers.

649
00:44:54,246 --> 00:45:00,086
And I realized, holy, I'm to make over a quarter million dollars this year from sale of my
art.

650
00:45:00,086 --> 00:45:04,226
And it was just like, oh my God, that is like, I've made it.

651
00:45:04,226 --> 00:45:07,606
And that is so far beyond what I was going for.

652
00:45:07,694 --> 00:45:10,594
And it felt really good for a few minutes.

653
00:45:10,594 --> 00:45:15,534
And then I had another feeling that kind of descended on me that felt a little
uncomfortable.

654
00:45:15,534 --> 00:45:20,834
At first I thought I was feeling guilty and I thought, but it wasn't, it was
responsibility.

655
00:45:20,834 --> 00:45:23,874
Cause I realized I wasn't special.

656
00:45:23,894 --> 00:45:28,074
I wasn't the kid in the class that everyone thought was going to be the successful artist.

657
00:45:28,074 --> 00:45:31,934
There were every art class I ever took, there were a lot of artists better than me.

658
00:45:31,934 --> 00:45:35,502
I always shook out at about maybe the 70th percentile.

659
00:45:35,502 --> 00:45:42,542
But I knew the things that I had done to get here and I knew I was living the dream that
so many people have.

660
00:45:42,542 --> 00:45:47,702
And I thought, I have a responsibility to share what I've learned with other artists.

661
00:45:47,702 --> 00:45:53,562
So literally the next day I went down to because Toronto is like a Hollywood North kind of
thing.

662
00:45:53,562 --> 00:45:57,462
There's a lot of very high end kind of film stores and all that kind of stuff.

663
00:45:57,462 --> 00:46:02,862
went in and dropped about $25,000 in camera equipment, sound equipment, lighting, all
that.

664
00:46:02,862 --> 00:46:05,408
Cause I thought I'm going to start a YouTube channel.

665
00:46:05,408 --> 00:46:09,539
and I'm gonna start sharing everything I've learned with artists for free.

666
00:46:09,539 --> 00:46:11,622
And at that point, there was no thought of monetizing it.

667
00:46:11,622 --> 00:46:14,184
It was just like an investment in karma, right?

668
00:46:14,184 --> 00:46:18,107
It's like just giving back to art that had given me so much.

669
00:46:18,107 --> 00:46:19,688
So I started that.

670
00:46:20,209 --> 00:46:29,956
Not long after that, a good friend of mine that was a golf buddy, I met his daughter who
was just finishing up her degree in landscape architecture, but she was really interested

671
00:46:29,956 --> 00:46:30,416
in art.

672
00:46:30,416 --> 00:46:33,408
m Make a long story, not quite so long.

673
00:46:33,408 --> 00:46:39,924
After her getting to know me, she dropped the bomb on her parents right after graduating
that she didn't want to be a landscape architect.

674
00:46:39,924 --> 00:46:41,465
She wanted to be an artist.

675
00:46:41,465 --> 00:46:43,227
And they were not happy with her.

676
00:46:43,227 --> 00:46:46,730
Her dad was not happy with me because he's like, this is all your fault.

677
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:50,093
So I said, listen, listen, I think she's got the fire in her belly.

678
00:46:50,093 --> 00:46:52,675
Like talent is something she can acquire.

679
00:46:52,675 --> 00:46:57,699
She's good, but I can, I just had a feeling that she was going to do whatever it took.

680
00:46:57,699 --> 00:47:00,972
I said, listen, let her know if she wants, I'll mentor her.

681
00:47:01,056 --> 00:47:06,850
as long as we can film all of our sessions and put them up on my YouTube channel so other
artists can kind of learn from that.

682
00:47:06,850 --> 00:47:08,150
So we did that.

683
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:09,801
Her name's Brooke Cormier.

684
00:47:09,801 --> 00:47:18,727
She is a social media superstar now as an artist, but she was able to earn $30,000 in her
very first year.

685
00:47:18,727 --> 00:47:21,759
It took me five years of painting full time to do that.

686
00:47:21,759 --> 00:47:27,534
And then by the end of her second year, ah she was selling prints of her work
internationally.

687
00:47:27,534 --> 00:47:31,494
And her work was her work now goes for more than mine.

688
00:47:31,754 --> 00:47:38,334
But I was still just doing this as kind of a, a passion project in my spare time.

689
00:47:38,334 --> 00:47:40,574
And I'm still focusing on my money was coming.

690
00:47:40,574 --> 00:47:45,774
used, you'll find that there's a video out there me on YouTube saying I will never charge
for my teaching.

691
00:47:45,774 --> 00:47:51,234
I'm to make all my money off my rich clients, but I don't want to make money off the backs
of starving artists.

692
00:47:51,474 --> 00:47:54,334
And a couple of things happened to 2019.

693
00:47:54,334 --> 00:47:55,894
I almost died twice.

694
00:47:56,282 --> 00:47:58,162
the thyroid from hell.

695
00:47:58,183 --> 00:48:00,923
And again, it kind of makes you think about your life.

696
00:48:01,503 --> 00:48:05,585
And I was thinking, you the only, I only had one regret when I was thinking this might be
it.

697
00:48:05,585 --> 00:48:09,826
And I thought that I had, I really hadn't impacted as many artists as I wanted to.

698
00:48:09,826 --> 00:48:18,448
Um, so I knew I'd helped Brooke and I'd gotten emails from people from the YouTube that
said, you know, they'd followed my stuff and had changed their life.

699
00:48:18,448 --> 00:48:23,749
But I really started thinking, you know, that I wish I could have much more impact on many
more artists.

700
00:48:23,749 --> 00:48:26,210
Cause that was probably one of the things I'm proudest of.

701
00:48:26,210 --> 00:48:30,973
was that whole period with Brooke and really changing her life.

702
00:48:31,654 --> 00:48:37,238
And then I had someone else tell me something that, you know, the whole thing, well, I
feel really uncomfortable about charging artists.

703
00:48:37,238 --> 00:48:40,300
And they were like, you know, you're being selfish here.

704
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:41,731
That made me feel good.

705
00:48:41,731 --> 00:48:46,104
Like I was being somehow noble that I was only just giving it away.

706
00:48:46,104 --> 00:48:55,606
But they said to me, if you were actually to treat this as a business and you were able to
put a hundred percent of your effort into it and to put money into it,

707
00:48:55,606 --> 00:49:01,748
and you could impact 10 or a hundred or a thousand times more artists, wouldn't that be
better?

708
00:49:01,846 --> 00:49:03,009
And I'm like, yeah.

709
00:49:03,009 --> 00:49:04,640
And it's like, well, you have to get over that thing.

710
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,921
You're gonna have to create this as a business.

711
00:49:06,921 --> 00:49:10,332
You're gonna have to charge artists for your teaching.

712
00:49:10,332 --> 00:49:15,414
And at the end of the day, the more money you make from that, the more people you're
helping.

713
00:49:15,694 --> 00:49:17,115
And I got on and it's like, okay.

714
00:49:17,115 --> 00:49:19,086
And it's almost like the same sort of thing that I was talking about.

715
00:49:19,086 --> 00:49:21,477
People say, and if you're selling your art, you're selling out, right?

716
00:49:21,477 --> 00:49:25,134
I kind of felt that as if I'm charging for my teaching, I don't know.

717
00:49:25,134 --> 00:49:30,334
But anyway, so in 2020, we launched the Art Academy and that's gone amazing.

718
00:49:30,334 --> 00:49:33,414
We've had a number of students gone on to amazing success.

719
00:49:33,414 --> 00:49:35,194
It's been a successful business.

720
00:49:35,194 --> 00:49:39,834
We just passed $600,000 in course sales in five years.

721
00:49:39,834 --> 00:49:44,714
And then everybody, all of my students are like, we need this in a book for two reasons.

722
00:49:44,714 --> 00:49:50,712
People need to have this in a low ticket, something that they can spend 10 or $15 on and
have.

723
00:49:50,712 --> 00:49:59,379
But even all of my students, even the ones that are in the mastermind said, we want to be
able to just flip through to the chapter on pricing your work or on mindset or on entering

724
00:49:59,379 --> 00:50:00,520
jury shows or whatever.

725
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:06,315
We don't want to have to go through 40 hours of course material to try and find that
little bit.

726
00:50:06,315 --> 00:50:09,577
So I kind of said, okay, I guess, I guess you're right.

727
00:50:09,577 --> 00:50:11,669
And so anyways, that was last year.

728
00:50:11,669 --> 00:50:14,121
About this time I decided, I guess we're going to write a book.

729
00:50:14,121 --> 00:50:16,192
uh So we did.

730
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,501
So a couple of things, they're throwing something at me.

731
00:50:18,501 --> 00:50:30,956
I said earlier, but you said one thing that I would love us to take away is you said you
recognized him, Brooke, when her dad was mad at you and her parents are mad at her.

732
00:50:30,956 --> 00:50:36,184
You told her dad that, it looks like she's willing to do what it takes.

733
00:50:36,184 --> 00:50:37,614
She's got the fire in her belly.

734
00:50:37,614 --> 00:50:39,455
It's you can spot that, right?

735
00:50:39,455 --> 00:50:45,757
And I knew that even going in because we, her parents were members at the same golf club
we were at.

736
00:50:45,757 --> 00:50:50,876
And so I'd run into Brooke at social functions while she was still going to university.

737
00:50:50,876 --> 00:50:54,359
And sometimes her dad would come over and say, leave Tim alone, right?

738
00:50:54,359 --> 00:50:56,320
Because she was always asking me about art.

739
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:02,582
I'd always asking me, this is while she was still pretty, she still had two more years of
university to go.

740
00:51:02,582 --> 00:51:04,206
But anytime we were together.

741
00:51:04,206 --> 00:51:06,308
She always brought the conversation back to art.

742
00:51:06,308 --> 00:51:14,293
was picking my brains about my business and kind of, she's like, you're an artist, but
you're at this private club with my parents, right?

743
00:51:14,293 --> 00:51:15,534
It's like, well, what does your wife do?

744
00:51:15,534 --> 00:51:19,417
It's like, well, she was able to retire early because things went so well.

745
00:51:19,417 --> 00:51:22,039
And so she's like, all of this based on just your art.

746
00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:26,302
And I'm like, yeah, I could see the wheels turning.

747
00:51:27,241 --> 00:51:29,744
When she said, know, you saw it, she has it.

748
00:51:29,744 --> 00:51:31,566
You said the fire in the belly.

749
00:51:31,566 --> 00:51:32,046
Yep.

750
00:51:32,046 --> 00:51:36,190
Can we think about not Brooke, just think about in general.

751
00:51:36,190 --> 00:51:37,811
It's like how you can see it.

752
00:51:37,912 --> 00:51:39,654
What is the, what, what's the thing?

753
00:51:39,654 --> 00:51:42,297
Like, is it 25 characteristics?

754
00:51:42,297 --> 00:51:44,056
Is it, what is it?

755
00:51:44,056 --> 00:51:47,408
So it's, first of all, it's a passion, right?

756
00:51:47,408 --> 00:51:50,790
But passion is not just loving the thing.

757
00:51:50,891 --> 00:51:57,855
Passion is having an overwhelming burning compulsion to master everything about it.

758
00:51:58,195 --> 00:52:00,717
And then being willing to do the work to do it.

759
00:52:00,717 --> 00:52:05,140
I talk, people ask me all the time, like how was Brooke able to be so successful?

760
00:52:05,140 --> 00:52:09,080
We met every month and every month I would kind of.

761
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,890
critique what she had done that month.

762
00:52:10,890 --> 00:52:15,512
we'd look at kind of, first of all, for the first six months, it was all about developing
her art.

763
00:52:15,512 --> 00:52:18,763
And then it was starting to get her art artwork out there shown and all that.

764
00:52:18,763 --> 00:52:22,074
And then it was doing art festivals and social media and all that.

765
00:52:22,074 --> 00:52:34,637
But I can tell you the one thing that had made the one most important thing that made her
successful is not once in that two year period when I said, okay, this week I want you to

766
00:52:34,637 --> 00:52:35,597
whatever.

767
00:52:35,597 --> 00:52:38,078
She never once said, I don't want to do that.

768
00:52:38,118 --> 00:52:39,198
She just said,

769
00:52:39,692 --> 00:52:40,062
Yep.

770
00:52:40,062 --> 00:52:42,203
And then she went and over delivered.

771
00:52:42,344 --> 00:52:52,939
And so it was like, yeah, if you find yourself saying, I don't want to do that, then you
may as well just say, I don't want to be an entrepreneur in this business because it's

772
00:52:52,939 --> 00:52:53,650
like, well, that's it.

773
00:52:53,650 --> 00:52:58,473
It's kind of like saying I'd like to be a doctor, but I don't want to have to take
chemistry.

774
00:52:58,473 --> 00:53:00,538
It's like, yeah, well, figure out a way to do that.

775
00:53:00,538 --> 00:53:05,856
And you'll make $10 million, but you have to, you have to pass chemistry if you want to be
a doctor.

776
00:53:06,637 --> 00:53:08,130
so it's like, if you want to be an artist.

777
00:53:08,130 --> 00:53:09,325
You need to understand business.

778
00:53:09,325 --> 00:53:10,681
You need to understand marketing.

779
00:53:10,681 --> 00:53:14,018
You need to understand all the other stuff that go in business.

780
00:53:14,018 --> 00:53:15,304
Tell us where to go buy this book.

781
00:53:15,304 --> 00:53:16,629
can sell your art.

782
00:53:16,629 --> 00:53:20,224
So we have the Tim Packer Art Academy, but where do we go to find the book?

783
00:53:20,224 --> 00:53:20,744
Amazon.

784
00:53:20,744 --> 00:53:22,836
So it's available on Amazon now.

785
00:53:23,117 --> 00:53:27,661
It's on Amazon, wherever you are, .ca, UK, everywhere.

786
00:53:27,661 --> 00:53:29,773
We've gotten so far.

787
00:53:29,773 --> 00:53:36,267
So we've hit number one bestseller and I think three different categories already, which
I'm very thrilled at, but I'm most thrilled about the reviews.

788
00:53:36,267 --> 00:53:39,051
We've gotten 40 reviews so far.

789
00:53:39,051 --> 00:53:46,337
And it's like from the U S from Canada, from Sweden, from the UK, I think from Australia,
but all the reviews are five star.

790
00:53:46,458 --> 00:53:47,148
And that's

791
00:53:47,148 --> 00:53:52,385
That's the most important thing for me is that the people that are reading it are really
finding the information helpful.

792
00:53:52,792 --> 00:53:53,272
So good.

793
00:53:53,272 --> 00:53:54,182
All right, we're going to promote it.

794
00:53:54,182 --> 00:53:55,983
They're going to kick my butt if we don't get off of here.

795
00:53:55,983 --> 00:54:09,547
Hey, uh Tim, thanks for being, thanks for being so authentic about not only a great artist
and talking about your paintings and that process, but just see, you're a good business

796
00:54:09,547 --> 00:54:12,768
person, but the reason why you're all these things is because you've got the passion.

797
00:54:12,768 --> 00:54:17,649
The same thing that you saw in Brooke, you could identify it because you have the same
attributes inside of you.

798
00:54:17,649 --> 00:54:21,790
And I don't believe that this is just passion for art.

799
00:54:22,154 --> 00:54:29,577
I bet when you were a detective in the police force and tell your friend from when you
knew died, I bet you were really passionate about being a really good detective too, were

800
00:54:29,577 --> 00:54:30,408
you not?

801
00:54:30,508 --> 00:54:31,842
Not really.

802
00:54:35,678 --> 00:54:36,780
I was good.

803
00:54:36,780 --> 00:54:37,981
I was I was good.

804
00:54:37,981 --> 00:54:42,828
I so again, I all yes, I I advanced up through the rank structure and everything else.

805
00:54:42,828 --> 00:54:45,510
But I liked my job.

806
00:54:45,772 --> 00:54:47,153
I didn't love it.

807
00:54:47,153 --> 00:54:47,694
But you

808
00:54:47,694 --> 00:54:50,274
Didn't you still put in the time to do it really well?

809
00:54:50,274 --> 00:54:54,658
I put in the time to do it really well, but I didn't put in the time to become great at
it.

810
00:54:54,658 --> 00:54:55,118
Okay.

811
00:54:55,118 --> 00:54:56,159
I, right.

812
00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:59,352
spend all of like, so I was passionate first about art.

813
00:54:59,352 --> 00:55:01,118
Then just, can tell I'm passionate about business.

814
00:55:01,118 --> 00:55:02,885
I'm passionate about teaching.

815
00:55:02,885 --> 00:55:03,905
I spend my day.

816
00:55:03,905 --> 00:55:05,347
I don't take days off.

817
00:55:05,347 --> 00:55:06,748
I spend all of my time.

818
00:55:06,748 --> 00:55:15,775
If I'm not painting or if I'm not actually working on the marketing or something else, I'm
watching YouTube videos to learn what it is I need to know to do whatever it is better.

819
00:55:15,775 --> 00:55:16,276
Right?

820
00:55:16,276 --> 00:55:19,266
Like I didn't do that on the police force while I was at work.

821
00:55:19,266 --> 00:55:20,687
They got a hundred percent out of me.

822
00:55:20,687 --> 00:55:31,021
And I always had like amazing performance reviews, but I didn't spend my six days off
studying on interviewing techniques or kind of like whatever, right?

823
00:55:31,021 --> 00:55:32,232
It was a job.

824
00:55:32,232 --> 00:55:33,072
And that's what I'm saying.

825
00:55:33,072 --> 00:55:40,475
The reason to want to make a living of the thing you love is that it's the thing you spend
your time off doing.

826
00:55:40,475 --> 00:55:45,217
It's like that's, and you're spending all your time trying to get better at it, master it.

827
00:55:45,217 --> 00:55:47,456
But I was really good.

828
00:55:47,456 --> 00:55:51,850
as a police officer and I really liked my job, but I wasn't passionate about it.

829
00:55:51,850 --> 00:55:56,693
I didn't have the desire to be the best detective on the police force, right?

830
00:55:57,214 --> 00:56:05,982
Whereas I have the passion to be, think I'm in the top comfortable place as an artist.

831
00:56:05,982 --> 00:56:16,526
But I think in terms of as a teacher who's able to actually teach artists how to make a
living from their work, I think I'm one of the best in the world at that.

832
00:56:16,526 --> 00:56:17,488
That's a great way to end.

833
00:56:17,488 --> 00:56:19,471
The man just said it.

834
00:56:19,471 --> 00:56:22,216
Packer, Tim Packer Art Academy, go buy.

835
00:56:22,216 --> 00:56:24,559
You can sell your art on Amazon.

836
00:56:25,181 --> 00:56:26,424
Thanks for coming on.

837
00:56:26,424 --> 00:56:27,549
Thanks for having me.