#178 - Building a Premium Pet Food Brand in a Crowded Market | Russell Breuer

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I think a lot of entrepreneurs experience this.

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There is no other option than to succeed.

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Hey you all, welcome back for another episode of the necessary entrepreneur.

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I'm excited.

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I always know, usually have a good indication on what the episode is going to be like from
the five or 10 minutes beforehand.

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And on this one with Russell, I was caught up and said, man, we got to hit the start
button and we got to get this thing going.

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So you always wonder, are you going to share some things that you don't want to share
live, but here's soon, I don't know.

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It's just going to be pushed the button and get started.

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But today's guest is a Russell breweries founder and CEO of spot and tango.

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A lot of times it's hip now to have a business where it's like just a four letter word,
but he's spot and tango.

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Russell started spot & tango to create fresh personalized nutrition for pets at a time
when most pet food options were industrial and undifferentiated.

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Since founding the company, he's navigated the challenges of building a DTC food brand.

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We're going to speak there and go deep into that from product development and supply chain
to subscription economics and customer retention.

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Whoa, that's a big one.

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all in one of the most competitive retail categories in the U S.

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So what does it take to build a business where passion meets tight unit economics?

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That's where we're digging into today.

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Welcome to the necessary entrepreneur, man.

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Hey Mark, thanks for having me on.

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Looking forward to the conversation.

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Tight unit economics for spot and tango.

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Is that real in this up at food category?

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It is in a digital e-commerce subscription model.

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It's all metrics, right?

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So we don't sell on shelf.

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It's not brick and mortar business.

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It's all online.

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And to be successful online, if you are a lower funnel paid performance marketer, all the
dollars you infuse into Meta, Google, TikTok, et cetera, you have to measure the

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efficiency of those dollars.

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And you have to think about things like lifetime value of customer.

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economics as far as like contribution, gross margin, the business, um and how all of that
math works together.

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it's all it's honestly it's all metrics.

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A lot of brands that are DTC and there's all sorts of names of kind of I would say like
the early movers.

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People figured out how to build big businesses online like grow, as in like, okay, where's
customer customers on their phone, get them to convert and buy tennis shoes, t shirts,

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whatever, whatever category.

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um The challenge

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with those models.

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High growth, they can be very capital intensive, but a lot of folks never figured out how
to make money doing it.

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So there's been a lot of kind of high profile flame outs of businesses that kind of, you
know, economics, margin, staging capital was kind of not in the consideration set until

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later in the life stage of the company, and that was perilous.

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yes, for us, it's all metrics.

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So did they flame out because they raised too much money a lot of times while they were
still figuring it out?

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Um, I don't know if it was raised too much money.

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I think it was like trying to go too fast and over-investing the infrastructure and excuse
me, where maybe there was like a false precision in terms of the demand signal thinking

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that more revenue and more growth would come, you know, given like early trajectory in the
business and then built out, you know, three PL distribution, morph manufacturing, and

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like just couldn't fill that.

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Because a lot of these businesses will asymptote, right?

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So there's like up into the right growth.

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And depending on the category, asymptote, like they start to plateau and flatline.

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You've seen that with brands historically.

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And so for us, we're in a very unique category, pet.

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There's really no ceiling.

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There's 90 million dogs in the US.

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Health and wellness is here.

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It's happening.

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um So is digital commerce within the pet food landscape.

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And so for us, um it's a tremendous opportunity.

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But a lot of those brands kind of just over rotated.

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know, that I can have alluded to.

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staging capital and being a really prudent operator and thinking each step as it comes and
not getting really over your skis.

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So did you know in 2018 when you started this that it was going to be a DTC brand?

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Did you know that direct to consumer?

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No, you know, I love that question.

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uh We were an omnichannel, all these fancy words.

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We sold in pet specialty stores and online.

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we, you know, I put together a Squarespace website.

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was like a template.

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I dropped in some images of my dog.

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We offered like small, medium and large plans.

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That's it.

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And then I went to pet specialty retailers in Brooklyn and Manhattan with our fresh frozen
recipe.

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In those days, it was wrapped in this beautiful pink butcher paper.

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of, it was kind of shouting craft.

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from the rooftops and like high touch.

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And I said, look, here's health and wellness.

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Here's what's happening.

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And these retailers like, this is awesome.

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Never seen this type of product before.

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And I was like, great.

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What can I put a fridge or a freezer next to point of sale?

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They all said, yes.

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So it was kind of both.

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And there was no grand plan of like, yeah, this personalized DTC.

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No, no, no.

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It was like, let's eat some glass and learn it to get this out.

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Like, can we make money doing it?

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Is there product market fit?

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So that was a really exploration.

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more than anything and then ultimately pulled the freezers.

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We don't sell on shelf, it's all D to C.

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um But the zero to one phases, there was a lot of baptism by fire, try something.

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The expression like fail fast, fail often, like we embody that as a company, like make the
mistakes, but do it fast and learn from that.

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um There's nothing worse than like a slow maybe, right?

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um And so we were very much kind of thinking on both sides of Omni now as I mentioned,
we're all D to C.

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So the book when it's written, you're telling me it's filled way more with eating glass
and failures than success.

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Honestly, when the book's or the podcast, or the recording, or the diaries, yeah, the zero
to one, there are a lot of dark times in the business.

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These are not linear journeys.

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um And so I like to be really honest when I have conversations with folks and like-minded
entrepreneurs about the realities of building a company, because it's really hard over

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years.

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um And finding breakthrough in product market fit takes time.

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And you've got to find that vein, then you get the gas, right?

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um Oftentimes folks, they try to build the end too early.

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The best looking website and the best product in a channel that thinks right.

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They spend a lot of money and time doing that and it's not right.

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So you kind of have to like fail yourself into success.

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And that was certainly our story with launching Unkibble and like diversifying our product
offering and finding like very, very high product market fit and then leaning into that.

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but it was all staged over time.

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But yes, lots of war stories, zero to one.

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Why are you winning now?

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Because you are.

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Because a non-fignar bit, that's winning.

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Why are you winning now?

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We have a very differentiated product called Unkibble.

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So in our category, within the pet health and wellness space, these are traditionally
fresh frozen recipes.

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So it's all human-grade ingredients.

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what do we do?

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are Pet Health and Wellness DDC.

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Primary offering is food.

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We also sell treats, supplements, and dental care.

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ah In our category, fresh frozen is very competitive.

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So it's like a lean cuisine for dogs.

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Great.

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And we sell that product.

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Wonderful, the product, et cetera.

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We responded to customer feedback in the early days that the product is expensive because
cold chain is expensive.

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Insulation costs money so does dry ice.

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Convenience was a big issue as well.

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Putting a bunch of frozen dog food in your freezer if you live in like, you know, the five
boroughs like Manhattan or Urban City Center, you're treating either like Rover's meals or

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your meals.

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Like you're trying to fit it all in and like that's tough.

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Serving size challenge so.

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That was the customer feedback.

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use that to launch Unkibble.

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Unkibble is a hero product.

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We like to say it's the benefits of a fresh frozen recipe and the convenience of Kibble.

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It's shelf stable.

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We take the water out, makes the product 30 to 40 % less expensive than all the other
competitors, shelf stable.

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And then we built a factory dedicated.

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So we verticalized the entire supply chain.

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We own the supply chain that created a significant competitive moat.

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And it resonates with the consumer because the reality is most people

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all people are busy, on the go, pet parents.

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This is personalized scoop and serve and like off you go.

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And I think that's, again, that just lands with consumer.

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uh But being able to own the supply side was a big breakthrough for us in particular,
because during COVID, we grew a lot, which is wonderful to say, but back to the realities

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of building a business, operationalizing hyper growth is very tough.

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And we live that

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is tough because there's not unlimited revenue, there's no money tree on your back deck.

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Yeah, it's all of that.

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It's like staging capital for us.

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know, the business we had, you know, two people on customer service we've launched on
Kibble and probably got, I don't know, 10 customer service tickets a day.

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Like, where's my food or FedEx is deleted or what have you.

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That turned into 500 tickets per day a month later.

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So immediately there's a challenge.

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How do I build a customer service team that believes in the values, the mission of our
brand and the culture who are like hardworking and attentive and responsive?

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And it's like, wow, that's a challenge.

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How do I do that kind of like tomorrow?

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We're getting yelled at by lot of customers.

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And then we figured that piece out.

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the next challenge was like, all these people keep clicking convert and purchase, which
again is a wonderful feeling because you see like the revenue number tick up, but then you

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got to ship the product.

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So you need more protein, more fruit, more vegetable, you need to figure out labor shift,
production, all of the above.

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to figure out all of that honestly took years.

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And then to your first question, it's like, yes, you have to stage capital appropriately
to fund all of this stuff.

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So it's all of the above.

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And, you know, we like to say we're building the plane while we fly it.

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And that's kind of been part of our mantra.

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uh We're still flying.

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Wings are intact, you know, there's moments when, know, fuel is low, you know, flying low.

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Yeah, but I think, isn't that read any of the books of the so-called successful
entrepreneurs.

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They have multiple moments like this.

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And I think maybe operating a business, yeah, you're, growing spot & Tango, but operating
a business, just knowing like, Hey, these aren't surprises.

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They might feel like a surprise today, but they aren't surprises.

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So prepare yourself for this.

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That's it.

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um I always say to the team and we've lived this, things break every day.

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Like trucks break down, equipment breaks down, it fatigues, there could be HR issues.

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We had one issue yesterday, an electrical challenge at our manufacturing facility that was
unforeseen.

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we've spent a great, this is where kind of year three plus at that facility.

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So we know a lot more than we did in those days.

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know, phone rings, it's like, we have a challenge with the transformer.

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Okay, let's talk about it.

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It's over time you are conditioned to being able to address and solve those problems.

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And for us, first principles problem solving is essential.

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it's like taking a deep breath, understanding the root cause of the issue and the problem,
and then selecting ways to solve that in a very methodical way.

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And manner has been kind of part of it.

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But yes, to your point, that's any business, you're an entrepreneur, any business
experiences or challenges, that's how you respond is what makes you successful.

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Go deep into first principles.

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mean, there's not a conversation that isn't had from an entrepreneurial perspective and
business organization that, we go back to first principles.

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Tell us what that means to you because everybody's stating that and it seems like we're
having some fluff conversation about it.

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Where is when you're talking about first principles decision-making.

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Yeah, so you start with the problem, right?

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So it's really sitting down and understanding every angle of the problem.

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you're not rushed to make a decision.

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It's sitting down with all the key stakeholders to properly understand all of the
component pieces leading to the decision, which can be, how did you get there?

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Why did it happen?

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Who or what was responsible for that issue?

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Was it an equipment?

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Was it a personnel issue?

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Was it a training lapse?

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So it's really, it's...

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understanding those are all the component pieces, right?

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And from the component pieces, you'll understand whether there was a process failure.

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Because maybe what when the fire alarm goes off, people may say it's an equipment failure,
right?

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But the reality is it could be a process failure.

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There's nothing to do with the equipment.

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And a process failure could be something like preventative maintenance on a piece of
equipment.

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All equipment requires me.

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I used to like, you know, put fuel in the car, put oil in the car.

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And so it could be a process challenge.

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And if it's a process challenge, is that the responsibility of an equipment supplier or is
that a challenge internally in terms of your process and your team?

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So it's breaking out those individual pieces and having open conversation with the team.

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That's part of first principles problem solving.

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And then from that, can troubleshoot.

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Tactical troubleshooting is, okay, if the equipment is effectively broken, fix equipment.

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But the root of the problem was not equipment, it's process.

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And then we start talking about process, which is, be training, it could be bandwidth
constraint, ah it could be a new process, right?

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And so that's when you go into conversations about not only addressing where there's been
deficiency in terms of the current issue, but mitigating that issue in the future.

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And that's entrepreneurship.

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That's, it's future-proofing.

221
00:13:49,004 --> 00:13:56,397
whatever you do, it's future proofing to ensure whatever occurred doesn't happen again,
because new issues will surface.

222
00:13:56,437 --> 00:14:02,479
And so if you're not good at breaking down component pieces, all of these issues compound.

223
00:14:02,479 --> 00:14:06,241
And then eventually, the straw that broke the camel's back happens.

224
00:14:06,241 --> 00:14:08,722
And it's like, well, we can't, there's too many issues.

225
00:14:08,722 --> 00:14:10,002
We can't do it.

226
00:14:10,146 --> 00:14:10,851
Yep.

227
00:14:10,851 --> 00:14:12,682
What's been critical?

228
00:14:12,682 --> 00:14:13,785
You know how

229
00:14:15,950 --> 00:14:19,490
Listen, at the end of the day, what I've found business is it's relationships.

230
00:14:19,870 --> 00:14:21,770
Maybe AI is going to make us irrelevant.

231
00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:23,350
We're about to find out.

232
00:14:23,570 --> 00:14:29,590
these human personal relationships are what has provided me the most success in my life.

233
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:37,890
And normally it's taken years to evolve, but the best things that happen usually inside
the companies I operate, it's because of people making them happen.

234
00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:42,870
And it might be a passion for the business, somebody that's all in, they're committed,
they're a part of the culture.

235
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:46,613
And so really, if I go to first principles of the business, like, yeah, we had a good
idea.

236
00:14:46,613 --> 00:14:48,310
There's a lot of good ideas.

237
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:51,857
You to have humans that are willing to get on board and execute this with you.

238
00:14:52,038 --> 00:14:55,500
And I, and I, and I say this to say, is that the most important?

239
00:14:55,500 --> 00:15:02,426
And if there's something else in your brain right now, that's cause people could say, no,
it's going to be AI because the machines are going to be important because supposedly, you

240
00:15:02,426 --> 00:15:06,409
know, Elon, supposedly we're going to forget about Tesla that they made cars.

241
00:15:06,409 --> 00:15:09,071
say in a decade, we're not going to remember the cars.

242
00:15:09,071 --> 00:15:12,654
We're going to remember the 10 million robots in the world doing stuff for us.

243
00:15:12,654 --> 00:15:13,874
I'm

244
00:15:15,678 --> 00:15:17,539
You know what I'm thinking about every day?

245
00:15:17,539 --> 00:15:19,500
I'm like, am I really missing something here?

246
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:21,050
Cause I'm operating my business.

247
00:15:21,050 --> 00:15:24,251
Like, is this whole thing going to catch me even though I'm plugged in using it?

248
00:15:24,251 --> 00:15:26,222
Am I going to be caught off guard and be irrelevant?

249
00:15:26,222 --> 00:15:28,533
But what's, what's important?

250
00:15:28,533 --> 00:15:32,264
What's the most important thing to your business right now?

251
00:15:32,565 --> 00:15:34,715
And I don't want to force you into saying it's the people.

252
00:15:34,715 --> 00:15:36,776
Cause too many people think we have to say that.

253
00:15:36,942 --> 00:15:38,043
Sure.

254
00:15:38,043 --> 00:15:45,296
I think product, when you're going from zero to one, product market fit is absolutely
critical.

255
00:15:45,296 --> 00:15:46,346
Okay.

256
00:15:46,346 --> 00:15:57,591
Like if you're a manufacturer, you're developing a product, like if people don't want and
love and or need your product, it's not going to work.

257
00:15:57,591 --> 00:15:57,891
Right.

258
00:15:57,891 --> 00:16:00,632
So I'm giving you like a staged answer.

259
00:16:00,632 --> 00:16:05,516
So for us, that was fresh mission driven,

260
00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:09,187
human-grade ingredient dog food, balance for a dog's dietary needs.

261
00:16:09,187 --> 00:16:10,968
Like that's the product.

262
00:16:10,968 --> 00:16:14,910
Now around that, there's everything else.

263
00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:16,570
How do you make the product?

264
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,791
How do you distribute the product?

265
00:16:18,791 --> 00:16:22,043
How do you maintain like the customer experience and retain customer?

266
00:16:22,043 --> 00:16:23,739
How do you encourage repeat customer?

267
00:16:23,739 --> 00:16:24,554
How do you build brand awareness?

268
00:16:24,554 --> 00:16:24,950
do you market?

269
00:16:24,950 --> 00:16:25,710
How do you acquire customers?

270
00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:26,485
How do you scale a company?

271
00:16:26,485 --> 00:16:29,756
Those are like, that's like the everything else.

272
00:16:29,816 --> 00:16:34,438
So in our zero to one days, there was no team.

273
00:16:35,158 --> 00:16:39,029
My wife and myself and then a co-founder got Dylan Monroe.

274
00:16:39,029 --> 00:16:43,690
We built the business full time since 2018, but it used to be Dylan and myself in an
office.

275
00:16:43,690 --> 00:16:46,801
There was no team, but we had the product.

276
00:16:46,801 --> 00:16:53,463
And so we were able to build enough infrastructure around the business such that we could
attract talent.

277
00:16:53,463 --> 00:16:57,344
And we hire a lot of folks that are kind of former McKinsey, Bain, BCG consultants.

278
00:16:57,344 --> 00:17:04,646
ah And then to your point, you do need to find people that have a...

279
00:17:04,692 --> 00:17:07,084
unbelievable grit and persistence.

280
00:17:07,084 --> 00:17:09,126
We say curiosity is key.

281
00:17:09,126 --> 00:17:17,213
ah And I always say to folks like when we hire or train or, you know, attract new talent,
we sit down and talk about curiosity a lot.

282
00:17:17,213 --> 00:17:22,037
Because curiosity is, you I can ask somebody, you know, please do A, B or C.

283
00:17:22,037 --> 00:17:25,600
The person who is successful is like, what about D, E and F?

284
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,262
And like, here are new doors, here are new opportunities.

285
00:17:28,262 --> 00:17:33,366
Because, and this is still the case now, even despite being in the business for eight plus
years.

286
00:17:33,556 --> 00:17:35,607
I don't know what I don't know.

287
00:17:35,607 --> 00:17:42,370
And if you don't have smart people around you asking the next question, I also say like,
you need people that are gonna look around the corner for you.

288
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:52,024
And like deep dive a particular topic, whether that's in, you know, gosh, I work a with
our finance team, obviously, you know, like a big four audit and technical accounting.

289
00:17:52,024 --> 00:17:56,386
It's like, I don't have, I'm not a trained accountant, nor do have 18 hours to figure it
out.

290
00:17:56,386 --> 00:18:01,288
But I have really smart people that are gonna go like deep on a topic and bring new
information to the table.

291
00:18:01,288 --> 00:18:01,846
So,

292
00:18:01,846 --> 00:18:10,531
Yes, I think the second answer to your question is surrounding yourself with people that
believe in the mission, ah who are naturally curious creatures, ah and bring that

293
00:18:10,531 --> 00:18:11,353
intellect to the table.

294
00:18:11,353 --> 00:18:13,664
That's also key for us.

295
00:18:13,664 --> 00:18:14,454
Yeah.

296
00:18:14,454 --> 00:18:16,815
What, where do you think spot and tango?

297
00:18:16,815 --> 00:18:20,797
Cause unfortunately these businesses, become our identities while we're doing them.

298
00:18:20,797 --> 00:18:22,057
Don't they?

299
00:18:23,218 --> 00:18:23,918
They do.

300
00:18:23,918 --> 00:18:27,957
And I don't know if there's any way around it because we spend so much of our time.

301
00:18:27,957 --> 00:18:30,021
I don't think it's just waking time.

302
00:18:30,021 --> 00:18:32,012
I think it's we're dreaming about this stuff.

303
00:18:32,012 --> 00:18:32,788
We're having nightmares.

304
00:18:32,788 --> 00:18:36,003
mean, we wake up and it's as if it was still on my brain while I'm sleeping.

305
00:18:36,003 --> 00:18:39,345
Um, where do you think spot and tango?

306
00:18:39,345 --> 00:18:40,355
Where's this fit in?

307
00:18:40,355 --> 00:18:42,556
Because to you, it's everything.

308
00:18:42,765 --> 00:18:43,623
Yes.

309
00:18:43,714 --> 00:18:48,161
Where does it fit in into this economic cycle on what it's going to be like?

310
00:18:48,161 --> 00:18:49,684
What's it, what's it going to mean?

311
00:18:49,684 --> 00:18:55,153
you think in 50 years it's rolled up into something else that's bigger and the name goes
away?

312
00:18:55,153 --> 00:18:57,657
Is this the name that's going to roll others up?

313
00:18:57,657 --> 00:18:58,888
Where's this fit?

314
00:18:59,118 --> 00:19:00,358
That's a great question.

315
00:19:00,358 --> 00:19:03,598
As you were asking, I was thinking like, where does it fit into the universe?

316
00:19:03,598 --> 00:19:05,038
Where does it fit into my life?

317
00:19:05,038 --> 00:19:14,498
I agree with your comment, by the way, like, yes, like part of my identity is in the
business, which by the way, is a very positive thing and can be a negative thing, right?

318
00:19:14,498 --> 00:19:19,558
When you go home, you know, if you're at church or with your kids, it's like, okay, let's
like separate the two.

319
00:19:19,558 --> 00:19:23,578
And it's like, the reality is like, it's, I live it every day.

320
00:19:23,638 --> 00:19:27,718
And I also say that I work for the company.

321
00:19:27,736 --> 00:19:37,894
You know, I get a W-2 um and the company does, you on a Saturday, the company is still
running and it's running on Sunday and Christmas and New Year's Eve and one year sleeping.

322
00:19:37,894 --> 00:19:39,315
The machine runs.

323
00:19:39,315 --> 00:19:41,016
I work for the machine.

324
00:19:41,016 --> 00:19:42,367
And I'm a facilitator.

325
00:19:42,367 --> 00:19:46,780
I'm the founder, but I'm connected to the machine like anybody else is.

326
00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:49,843
And now given the scale, it's always working.

327
00:19:49,843 --> 00:19:53,365
uh So yes, it's like ingrained in my DNA.

328
00:19:53,365 --> 00:19:54,402
um

329
00:19:54,402 --> 00:19:57,434
And I do talk to my kids a lot about entrepreneurship.

330
00:19:57,434 --> 00:20:02,977
You know, where did the apple come from, the farmer, and how to get to the grocery store,
and how to get to the house, and why does it look so shy?

331
00:20:02,977 --> 00:20:03,588
All the things.

332
00:20:03,588 --> 00:20:07,109
uh Those are great teaching moments for the children.

333
00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:10,962
Spontaneous built very, very strong brand equity and awareness.

334
00:20:10,962 --> 00:20:12,143
The name's not going anywhere.

335
00:20:12,143 --> 00:20:15,365
Like it is, you know, we have tens of thousands of customers.

336
00:20:15,365 --> 00:20:19,997
The markets acknowledge us as being a leader in mission-driven human-grade ingredients.

337
00:20:19,997 --> 00:20:21,318
uh

338
00:20:21,418 --> 00:20:28,222
Where are we in terms of like the cycle and where are we in terms of overall fitting with
the economy?

339
00:20:28,222 --> 00:20:33,525
Spot and Tango lives honestly at the epicenter of some major trends.

340
00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:35,246
One is health and wellness, right?

341
00:20:35,246 --> 00:20:39,709
So the ideas of like organic and gluten-free honestly didn't exist like 15 years ago.

342
00:20:39,709 --> 00:20:40,769
Now they do.

343
00:20:40,769 --> 00:20:42,220
Like Whole Foods exists.

344
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,932
People are actively thinking about their own health and wellness.

345
00:20:44,932 --> 00:20:46,623
Go read Outlive by Dr.

346
00:20:46,623 --> 00:20:47,213
Peter Thiem.

347
00:20:47,213 --> 00:20:47,775
It's everywhere.

348
00:20:47,775 --> 00:20:48,984
People are talking about.

349
00:20:48,984 --> 00:20:51,736
protein levels, their macros, getting better sleeps.

350
00:20:51,736 --> 00:20:54,477
Performance sleep is now a thing, believe it or not.

351
00:20:54,477 --> 00:20:55,478
that's here.

352
00:20:55,478 --> 00:20:57,129
It's happening in the pet food landscape too.

353
00:20:57,129 --> 00:21:00,141
The dog used to sleep outside, now the dog sleeps in the bed.

354
00:21:00,141 --> 00:21:06,224
So that's one area that we're living through, that reality, and that's now happening in
pet in a big, big way.

355
00:21:06,224 --> 00:21:06,885
One.

356
00:21:06,885 --> 00:21:09,006
Two, like digital commerce is everywhere.

357
00:21:09,006 --> 00:21:10,467
Everyone's attached to their phone.

358
00:21:10,467 --> 00:21:11,707
It's like an appendage.

359
00:21:11,707 --> 00:21:16,800
So online shopping and e-commerce behavior has changed dramatically and shifted very much.

360
00:21:16,952 --> 00:21:22,466
Brigham order is still very important, obviously, but there's been a huge shift in
particular in pet to e-commerce.

361
00:21:22,687 --> 00:21:26,410
Customers and consumers trust e-commerce websites more now than they ever did.

362
00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:28,111
Before it was like, I've never heard of that brand.

363
00:21:28,111 --> 00:21:35,978
uh If I give them my credit card, they're not going to send me the product or they're to
steal my information and then like my identity theft and then everything goes wrong.

364
00:21:35,978 --> 00:21:38,200
Consumers trust websites.

365
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,460
So we're living in that trend.

366
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:40,351
Personalization.

367
00:21:40,351 --> 00:21:46,680
So we learn a lot about your dog's and diet and activity level to inform portion in
calories per day.

368
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,532
personalization is a huge trend as well.

369
00:21:49,532 --> 00:21:52,733
we're in this thematic and of course the humanization of pets.

370
00:21:52,733 --> 00:21:56,555
We're living in this thematic where that's one of the reasons why we've been successful.

371
00:21:56,555 --> 00:22:03,919
Cause all these consumers and honestly when I started the business in the studio
apartment, we were literally cooking fresh human grade dog food for friends and family.

372
00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:06,921
And all my buddies said, whatever you do, don't do that.

373
00:22:06,921 --> 00:22:08,102
That's like, this is bad.

374
00:22:08,102 --> 00:22:10,653
That's a bad, that's a bad idea.

375
00:22:10,653 --> 00:22:14,555
And my answer was you're entitled to your opinion.

376
00:22:14,555 --> 00:22:16,554
This industry is so

377
00:22:16,554 --> 00:22:17,595
large.

378
00:22:17,595 --> 00:22:20,677
mean, it's larger than coffee and razors combined.

379
00:22:20,677 --> 00:22:22,798
That gives you any sense of scale.

380
00:22:23,059 --> 00:22:27,351
And we are only we are at the forefront of what's happening.

381
00:22:27,351 --> 00:22:29,143
Now, granted, we can talk more about innovation.

382
00:22:29,143 --> 00:22:33,386
So we're constantly staying on the edge and like the expression innovator die.

383
00:22:33,386 --> 00:22:35,827
We're constantly pushing new product to stay relevant.

384
00:22:35,827 --> 00:22:46,018
ah But no, this is not going to like this is not, you know, a flash in the pan, some like
early stage startup that gets acqui hired and all of sudden like

385
00:22:46,018 --> 00:22:50,565
The product dissolves and the people are what's left over like no, we've got staying
power.

386
00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:54,030
Cause it would be terrible just for you and your family to that.

387
00:22:54,030 --> 00:22:55,630
That's what the identity became.

388
00:22:55,630 --> 00:22:59,150
That was the core of the question, you know, we spend so much time on it.

389
00:22:59,150 --> 00:23:01,450
We tie this identity up and what's it for?

390
00:23:01,450 --> 00:23:08,550
Yeah, we're all going to make some money and we made an impact in society and stuff, but
then for somebody else to change the brand, I don't know if we should be concerned with

391
00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:13,330
that because maybe it'll keep us from going all in and building it, but what are we
building it for then?

392
00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:15,010
Like that's more of a big life question.

393
00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:17,198
I was recently, I went back and listened to.

394
00:23:17,198 --> 00:23:18,638
Um, a man searched for meeting.

395
00:23:18,638 --> 00:23:24,378
haven't listened to a ton of these books, but it's fascinating what we can do with these
minds that we have.

396
00:23:25,278 --> 00:23:26,138
Right.

397
00:23:26,458 --> 00:23:29,578
Um, so it's kind of funny that what do we do with these identities?

398
00:23:29,578 --> 00:23:31,218
All of a sudden does it just one day?

399
00:23:31,218 --> 00:23:33,062
It's like, well, I have a new one now.

400
00:23:33,550 --> 00:23:42,310
Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like a relationship, you know, it ends and it's like, people
pretend like they didn't even know each other.

401
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:44,070
And it's like, what about the other?

402
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:46,290
What are the other five or 10 years?

403
00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:49,150
Yeah, that we were like, hey, like we actually live together.

404
00:23:49,150 --> 00:23:49,769
Do you remember that?

405
00:23:49,769 --> 00:23:52,330
It's like, oh, no, I'm on to the next chapter.

406
00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:53,016
there's a lot of

407
00:23:53,016 --> 00:23:54,310
Bigger than that is what you're saying.

408
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:55,685
That's what's awesome.

409
00:23:55,685 --> 00:23:59,496
think to build something, to actually have the vision to know it's more than that.

410
00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:02,981
Yeah, look, we have very humble beginnings.

411
00:24:02,981 --> 00:24:05,552
I I literally cooked the food myself.

412
00:24:05,552 --> 00:24:11,223
Like I got a food handlers license, which teaches you about like the temperature danger
zone.

413
00:24:11,223 --> 00:24:16,034
You don't put raw food above finished food in the refrigerator and how to cook and like
safety protocols.

414
00:24:16,034 --> 00:24:18,996
It's administered in 23 different languages in New York City.

415
00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:22,237
Cause most of New York City is made of like restaurants, chefs, sous chefs.

416
00:24:22,237 --> 00:24:25,818
You need a food handlers license legally to actually handle products and food.

417
00:24:25,818 --> 00:24:27,278
I got one of those.

418
00:24:27,456 --> 00:24:37,422
I'd leave my office in Midtown Manhattan, the fancy financial office, and go to Queens and
cook literally human grade dog food on the graveyard shift, because that was the cheapest

419
00:24:37,422 --> 00:24:40,313
slot.

420
00:24:40,453 --> 00:24:42,084
then did accounting and customer service and all that.

421
00:24:42,084 --> 00:24:48,678
So it's like blood, sweat and tears are definitely in the business.

422
00:24:48,686 --> 00:25:00,286
What was in, what was on your mind when you were working 10 hour days in the financial
district, probably in a nice midtown office building and you sacrificed this other part of

423
00:25:00,286 --> 00:25:03,666
your life to try to make this happen.

424
00:25:04,835 --> 00:25:13,741
I was you know what you're not for so you probably appreciate this everyone has ideas but
amongst their friends you know over a coffee or a drink and it's like wouldn't we need it

425
00:25:13,741 --> 00:25:22,616
remember like ten years ago everyone would say we need an app for that there's got to be
an app to do a B and C or this business idea I was always the guy that would show up the

426
00:25:22,616 --> 00:25:28,524
next day and say hey I was thinking about that idea and like I've here's some thoughts and
like I would have like a slide written down like

427
00:25:28,524 --> 00:25:32,366
Let's, I had this like burning urgency to do something entrepreneur.

428
00:25:32,366 --> 00:25:33,896
I've always been that way.

429
00:25:33,896 --> 00:25:36,868
This idea came into my life and I was like, all right, let's, you know, let's go.

430
00:25:36,868 --> 00:25:37,458
This is it.

431
00:25:37,458 --> 00:25:46,992
And of course it, so what was going through my mind in those moments, there were like
post-it notes everywhere with ideas and things to do that weren't what I was supposed to

432
00:25:46,992 --> 00:25:47,843
be doing.

433
00:25:47,843 --> 00:25:49,363
As in like my day job.

434
00:25:49,363 --> 00:25:55,086
It was, it was dreaming, honestly, of how else can I find.

435
00:25:55,086 --> 00:25:59,706
a way up the mountain here that doesn't require me to report to somebody else.

436
00:25:59,706 --> 00:26:00,846
You know, choose your own adventure.

437
00:26:00,846 --> 00:26:02,606
That's what it was.

438
00:26:03,586 --> 00:26:10,606
And I think I launched the business when I was kind of 35, officially, bootstrapped for a
few years and went full time.

439
00:26:11,546 --> 00:26:14,026
And I felt late to the game.

440
00:26:14,026 --> 00:26:16,386
My goal was to launch a business by the age of 30.

441
00:26:16,386 --> 00:26:21,046
It was 35 and I was married to two kids and then, you know, life happened very quickly.

442
00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:30,473
I felt late to the game, it was like inside, and I don't know why, divine intervention or
what have you, was pushing me.

443
00:26:30,473 --> 00:26:35,377
And honestly, if another idea had come through that wasn't like pet food, that could have
potentially been the business.

444
00:26:35,377 --> 00:26:38,280
There was something that I had a passion for.

445
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,901
So that's what was going through my mind.

446
00:26:39,901 --> 00:26:42,884
It was like, let's go, it's time to execute.

447
00:26:42,884 --> 00:26:45,846
And so that slide then became a business.

448
00:26:45,922 --> 00:26:50,464
Did that, was that exchange in your mind?

449
00:26:50,885 --> 00:26:53,316
Did you come to terms with the exchange is worth it?

450
00:26:53,316 --> 00:26:56,408
Because every time we do something, we're giving something else up.

451
00:26:56,408 --> 00:27:05,373
So the exchange of that graveyard shift of you cooking that food and doing this, you're
taking away from the other time you could be kids, wife, family.

452
00:27:05,933 --> 00:27:08,995
Were you intentionally making that decision?

453
00:27:09,675 --> 00:27:13,107
Knowing what you were giving up and somehow telling yourself, I have to do this.

454
00:27:13,107 --> 00:27:15,048
did you, or was it.

455
00:27:15,852 --> 00:27:17,837
Or you just didn't even know what was around the next corner.

456
00:27:17,837 --> 00:27:18,972
Just felt right.

457
00:27:18,972 --> 00:27:21,230
Did you know what you were doing or did it feel right?

458
00:27:21,230 --> 00:27:22,230
That's interesting.

459
00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:23,050
You're going deep.

460
00:27:23,050 --> 00:27:24,230
like this mark.

461
00:27:24,970 --> 00:27:27,770
Long-term vision is what it was.

462
00:27:27,770 --> 00:27:36,330
Is that I knew that there was very strong product market fit for what we were doing given
the signal from customers.

463
00:27:36,330 --> 00:27:37,790
People said we love it.

464
00:27:37,790 --> 00:27:38,210
We love it.

465
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:39,070
We love it.

466
00:27:39,070 --> 00:27:46,090
So I knew that there was something there that was kind of the North Star of like very
strong product market fit that kept me going.

467
00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:48,246
In hindsight now, you know, I...

468
00:27:48,246 --> 00:27:54,740
You know, we refer to those days as like the science experiment, you know, where there
could be a strong wind and the whole business blows over.

469
00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:56,230
didn't know.

470
00:27:56,231 --> 00:28:00,930
And, and shockingly, and this is probably, I think a lot of entrepreneurs experience this.

471
00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:03,365
There is no other option than to succeed.

472
00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:04,716
It's like, you just keep going.

473
00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:07,838
You get up every single day and like every day is good or bad.

474
00:28:07,838 --> 00:28:08,768
It's very emotional.

475
00:28:08,768 --> 00:28:13,751
I would say the early days, it was like quite emotional, like highs and lows, high energy,
but, feeling a bit bummed out.

476
00:28:13,751 --> 00:28:14,481
that didn't go so well.

477
00:28:14,481 --> 00:28:15,942
um

478
00:28:16,398 --> 00:28:18,258
For us, was like no other option.

479
00:28:18,258 --> 00:28:27,438
Now in hindsight, I think about the moments when the company had, when it was just my wife
and I, Dylan and myself, a former co-founder or like a three, I remember being so excited

480
00:28:27,438 --> 00:28:28,878
when we had like a five-person team.

481
00:28:28,878 --> 00:28:32,698
was like, oh man, yeah, woo, we're getting big.

482
00:28:33,018 --> 00:28:35,738
Revenue per month, $25,000.

483
00:28:35,838 --> 00:28:42,478
I remember like we used to have an office and we'd work, we'd get an office, we were like
a seven-man office and it was like, oh yeah.

484
00:28:42,478 --> 00:28:45,606
And then now in hindsight, I look back,

485
00:28:45,686 --> 00:28:51,969
and realize, wow, like we were just one or two mistakes.

486
00:28:53,624 --> 00:29:01,898
to the left or right of the path on the mountain, like the perilous path, like on a
knife's edge, one or two steps to the left or right and it was like game over.

487
00:29:01,898 --> 00:29:03,859
That's how all these businesses are.

488
00:29:03,859 --> 00:29:08,840
You make a few bad decisions and either you're like, you run out of cash or other.

489
00:29:08,881 --> 00:29:11,132
And so I looked back at those moments, I'm like, what?

490
00:29:11,132 --> 00:29:17,885
But at the time, that was not part of the considerations that it was like, well, we've got
to get to the summit.

491
00:29:17,885 --> 00:29:21,122
So let's just keep walking or hiking and climbing.

492
00:29:21,122 --> 00:29:22,062
you think it's important?

493
00:29:22,062 --> 00:29:28,502
I know what, uh, listening to Jeff Bezos, you know, we, all the thing we can do is we're
not in the rooms with these guys and these big decisions, but we listened to enough

494
00:29:28,502 --> 00:29:37,242
interviews and here in Cincinnati, where we're at, at the international airport, it's
where the Amazon prime hub is at this airport.

495
00:29:37,242 --> 00:29:41,382
And, know, you imagine the infrastructure that had to be built for that.

496
00:29:41,382 --> 00:29:45,142
And their Boulevard is day one Boulevard.

497
00:29:45,582 --> 00:29:47,430
That's the road going in.

498
00:29:47,950 --> 00:29:56,890
And he named the road, their institution of what he tried to instill in that corporation
that every day, no matter how big we get, we have to have the attitude that it's day one.

499
00:29:56,970 --> 00:30:01,790
And so I'm thinking, how do you take a nine figure business right now?

500
00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:05,870
Because it could be a billion dollar brand.

501
00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:13,350
But do you think it's because what we do so much when we accumulate money and something
that's worse than then we like, Hey, let's, let's, let's scale back this risk a little

502
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:13,710
bit.

503
00:30:13,710 --> 00:30:16,870
Let's not maybe push it into the left or right as much.

504
00:30:17,378 --> 00:30:19,956
But shouldn't we still be doing some of that?

505
00:30:21,368 --> 00:30:22,278
day one.

506
00:30:22,278 --> 00:30:23,259
Yeah.

507
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:24,730
So we talk about that.

508
00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:31,024
I I would say that my co-founder and I, humility is one of our values.

509
00:30:31,024 --> 00:30:37,727
So if something breaks, we're there too, like with the ops team talking about it.

510
00:30:37,727 --> 00:30:38,018
Okay.

511
00:30:38,018 --> 00:30:40,849
Like the member that I alluded to the power issue.

512
00:30:40,849 --> 00:30:41,510
Great.

513
00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:48,413
A lot of companies at this stage, like, you know, the founders are mostly doing, you know,

514
00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:56,396
they're on stage or they're traveling or they're kind of like building their own brand and
they're not really like, I'll give you, I'll actually give you a better example.

515
00:30:56,396 --> 00:31:00,438
We go to the fact we've, we built our own dedicated factory in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

516
00:31:00,879 --> 00:31:01,900
go there every week.

517
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,162
So we have our headquarters in Midtown Manhattan.

518
00:31:04,162 --> 00:31:08,375
We go to the factory, the factory is like steel-toed boots and it's a wonderful place,
incredible team.

519
00:31:08,375 --> 00:31:11,688
Like we go there to be, to work, you know, with everyone there.

520
00:31:11,688 --> 00:31:14,710
Um, that those are all like day one.

521
00:31:14,804 --> 00:31:17,925
That's like day one mentality and that permeates the organization.

522
00:31:17,925 --> 00:31:23,476
That's like the humility point when I say to people like, look, I used to cook the food
like me.

523
00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:25,137
It wasn't like I paid someone to do it.

524
00:31:25,137 --> 00:31:27,768
I did it because we didn't have the money in the early days.

525
00:31:27,768 --> 00:31:29,508
And so I've kind of embodied the brand.

526
00:31:29,508 --> 00:31:31,088
think that permeates the organization.

527
00:31:31,088 --> 00:31:33,889
So then we screen for that when we hire folks, we talk about that internally.

528
00:31:33,889 --> 00:31:44,532
So, um but that is hard um to maintain day one isms because people get years into the
journey and the company scales and it's like,

529
00:31:44,622 --> 00:31:47,733
I think maybe it's like human nature for people to like take their foot off the gas.

530
00:31:47,733 --> 00:31:51,634
it's like, this is like, it's easier not to go, not to push as hard.

531
00:31:51,634 --> 00:31:53,124
You mentioned like the risk.

532
00:31:53,204 --> 00:31:58,126
We are still, I would say like we're, are very prudent managers of the business.

533
00:31:58,126 --> 00:32:02,057
Like we are growing 50 % year over year still we're profitable.

534
00:32:02,057 --> 00:32:06,968
That's because of all of the decisions we've made over the past eight years,
verticalizing, margin wins, et cetera.

535
00:32:06,968 --> 00:32:14,070
ah But we are still very carefully navigating every single day.

536
00:32:14,158 --> 00:32:15,998
I'll give you practical examples.

537
00:32:15,998 --> 00:32:20,258
look at the rolling forecast, we look at the models, we look at 13 week cash flow.

538
00:32:20,258 --> 00:32:29,878
We talk to ops, we go to the factory, we touch and feel every facet of the business
because we know that risk is still on for sure, no matter what.

539
00:32:29,878 --> 00:32:35,598
I I would say that the risks have changed, but does risk exist for companies at this
stage?

540
00:32:35,598 --> 00:32:36,398
Absolutely.

541
00:32:36,398 --> 00:32:39,078
And that's why we're still highly attentive to.

542
00:32:39,714 --> 00:32:44,122
Cause if you don't have, if you don't have that aggressive day one, the risk is this.

543
00:32:44,624 --> 00:32:48,000
There's another spot & Tango out there that you don't know about right now.

544
00:32:48,056 --> 00:32:48,688
That's it.

545
00:32:48,688 --> 00:32:48,970
yeah.

546
00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:49,531
In pet.

547
00:32:49,531 --> 00:32:50,054
in pet.

548
00:32:50,054 --> 00:32:53,787
Every day there's a new, hey, look at me, I'm a shiny new toy, a new food, et cetera.

549
00:32:53,787 --> 00:32:54,828
For sure.

550
00:32:54,828 --> 00:32:55,108
Yep.

551
00:32:55,108 --> 00:33:00,727
And there's someone there that they know that their livelihood rests on that success that
day.

552
00:33:00,727 --> 00:33:04,512
And you give me some grinders like that, they're going to do something.

553
00:33:05,294 --> 00:33:08,308
And if you're not, they're going to rise up and take some of this market share.

554
00:33:08,344 --> 00:33:08,814
That's it.

555
00:33:08,814 --> 00:33:10,325
So we, I'll give you another great example.

556
00:33:10,325 --> 00:33:15,299
So we, we launched a product called PupGum recently, which is a new in the dental care
space.

557
00:33:15,299 --> 00:33:16,819
It's PupGum.

558
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,492
I'm sure you're thinking like, that's absolutely ridiculous.

559
00:33:19,492 --> 00:33:20,185
Cause like adult.

560
00:33:20,185 --> 00:33:23,182
not, no I love it, I'm listening, absolutely not.

561
00:33:23,182 --> 00:33:26,433
And we actually encourage consumption because that's how the product works.

562
00:33:26,433 --> 00:33:32,165
There's a novel post-biotic in the product um that reduces the biofilm on a dog's teeth,
it leads to bad breath.

563
00:33:32,165 --> 00:33:35,246
um That was a completely new innovation.

564
00:33:35,246 --> 00:33:38,587
We launched that, uh we sold out in two weeks.

565
00:33:38,587 --> 00:33:42,558
um It's growing very rapidly, similar to the young kibble story.

566
00:33:42,558 --> 00:33:48,229
That was a completely new, did we have to do that for the sake of the scale of the
company?

567
00:33:48,229 --> 00:33:50,600
The answer is like, absolutely not.

568
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:54,590
But did we see an opportunity given the dental care space?

569
00:33:54,590 --> 00:34:05,830
There's one large player that effectively owns 90 % of market share, no innovation, great
significant need for dental care, like 90 % of dogs ages of three years and older of a

570
00:34:05,830 --> 00:34:07,270
periodontal issue.

571
00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:09,830
So there's a burning platform with the consumer.

572
00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:11,330
We went for it.

573
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:17,590
Now granted, we knew eyes wide open, launching that product could have been a hero or zero
for sure.

574
00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:19,022
It's playing well.

575
00:34:19,022 --> 00:34:21,262
And there are other innovations that we're working on as well.

576
00:34:21,262 --> 00:34:22,622
Exactly to your point.

577
00:34:22,642 --> 00:34:33,122
There's probably 50 people that have raised seed money from early stage venture, and
they're all really smart and hardworking and they're going to go, I want to be the, I'm

578
00:34:33,122 --> 00:34:36,422
going to be the next dental care offering or food.

579
00:34:36,522 --> 00:34:41,302
Think about starting a company now versus like 25 years ago, you can start a company in 24
hours.

580
00:34:41,982 --> 00:34:44,222
24, busy filings.

581
00:34:44,242 --> 00:34:45,878
don't even need a lawyer anymore.

582
00:34:45,878 --> 00:34:56,198
Squarespace or Wix, get your website up and running, plug in Shopify recharge subscription
angle, Instagram, organic social with Metta, puts in money in Metta business manager and

583
00:34:56,198 --> 00:34:57,389
like, guess what?

584
00:34:57,389 --> 00:34:58,638
You got a company.

585
00:34:58,638 --> 00:35:01,698
Yep, in 90 days you can have significant cash flow.

586
00:35:01,698 --> 00:35:02,658
Significant.

587
00:35:02,895 --> 00:35:07,956
And that's across, I mean, I'm obviously a consumer guy, across any industry.

588
00:35:08,702 --> 00:35:10,075
The service industry even more.

589
00:35:10,075 --> 00:35:13,646
The service industry, you can be driving cash flow in 30 to 45 days.

590
00:35:13,826 --> 00:35:17,167
Which is, and that's like, that is like the American dream.

591
00:35:17,167 --> 00:35:19,828
That is entrepreneurship, which is so amazing.

592
00:35:19,828 --> 00:35:28,328
And also terrifying if you're in a category, if you've built something, defensibility,
you're thinking like, gosh, who else is good?

593
00:35:28,328 --> 00:35:32,482
And we've seen all sorts of copycats, me too's, people trying to eat our luncheons.

594
00:35:32,482 --> 00:35:34,993
Like, all right, know, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

595
00:35:34,993 --> 00:35:36,104
got another, I got another widget.

596
00:35:36,104 --> 00:35:36,574
Boom.

597
00:35:36,574 --> 00:35:37,574
Here it is.

598
00:35:37,882 --> 00:35:41,882
So what do you, uh, how do you add 10,000 more customers?

599
00:35:42,830 --> 00:35:51,465
So we spend our dollars on lower funnel marketing channels, uh typically, Meta, Google,
TikTok, direct mail.

600
00:35:51,465 --> 00:35:54,727
So kind of your classic core marketing channels.

601
00:35:54,727 --> 00:35:58,599
That's like lower funnel, like highly measurable through your customer acquisition cost.

602
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:03,722
uh We also spend time and dollars on what we call top of funnel advertisers.

603
00:36:03,722 --> 00:36:12,046
So think like billboards, we call them wild pastings, those posters on the sides of
buildings, uh radio.

604
00:36:12,046 --> 00:36:13,166
know, serious radio, etc.

605
00:36:13,166 --> 00:36:15,966
So for us, it's.

606
00:36:15,966 --> 00:36:17,506
That's like the core playbook.

607
00:36:17,506 --> 00:36:25,586
The core playbook is people you need to tell people about what we're doing and and the
product sells itself.

608
00:36:25,586 --> 00:36:26,486
Now, granted.

609
00:36:27,466 --> 00:36:35,166
It's expensive, marketing is expensive because it's competitive for clicks like you're a
busy guy, you're distracted, you your your spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, everyone's like

610
00:36:35,166 --> 00:36:36,626
on the go with their phone.

611
00:36:36,626 --> 00:36:41,506
They've got you've got, you know, 15 seconds to impress before the phone rings.

612
00:36:41,526 --> 00:36:42,797
or a notification pops up.

613
00:36:42,797 --> 00:36:46,490
it's how do I capture that person's true interest?

614
00:36:46,490 --> 00:36:49,672
And then how do we keep them engaged to funnel to conversion?

615
00:36:49,672 --> 00:36:51,959
So for us, it's more of the same.

616
00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:53,955
And again, we've really dialed in.

617
00:36:53,955 --> 00:36:55,486
I'll give you a practical example.

618
00:36:55,486 --> 00:36:57,427
We used to outsource all of our marketing to other people.

619
00:36:57,427 --> 00:36:58,148
Now we insource.

620
00:36:58,148 --> 00:37:01,520
We have a team in-house, buying media, creative.

621
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,022
The biggest breakthrough for us is creative.

622
00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:06,184
We like to say we're in the entertainment business.

623
00:37:06,184 --> 00:37:07,944
Creative is everything.

624
00:37:08,105 --> 00:37:09,966
Like we run...

625
00:37:10,286 --> 00:37:13,227
40 or 50 ads a week, new ads.

626
00:37:13,927 --> 00:37:17,288
Dog, dog owner plus food.

627
00:37:17,288 --> 00:37:23,269
You run that and it's like same ad, but it's dog, owner, food, kitchen.

628
00:37:24,070 --> 00:37:31,692
And the next one's like dog, food, owner, kitchen, uh know, children, family.

629
00:37:31,692 --> 00:37:35,773
You run all those ads and all the algorithms tell you like, version four is working.

630
00:37:35,773 --> 00:37:39,086
So we like turn off the others, lean into version four.

631
00:37:39,086 --> 00:37:44,646
hit the gas on dollars when that fatigues, you'll see that in terms of like clicks,
conversion rate and CAC.

632
00:37:44,646 --> 00:37:48,046
You've got a whole pipeline of new assets coming out.

633
00:37:48,046 --> 00:37:55,626
Static, GIFs, video, could you got to, I'm not only competing against other dog food
brands, I'm competing against the consumer.

634
00:37:56,086 --> 00:37:59,486
look, I mean, you go on Instagram and you're getting served all sorts of

635
00:37:59,848 --> 00:38:01,707
Yeah, we're just trying to get the attention.

636
00:38:01,707 --> 00:38:03,986
If you've got a good product, we need the eyes on it.

637
00:38:03,992 --> 00:38:04,630
That's it.

638
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:05,533
That's it.

639
00:38:05,582 --> 00:38:12,436
How much of the time operating your business now is this entertainment, creative branding
and marketing versus making the food?

640
00:38:15,513 --> 00:38:22,354
Fortunately, we have dedicated teams that are 100 % dedicated to all of the above.

641
00:38:22,354 --> 00:38:26,634
So we have a dedicated marketing team, a dedicated creative team.

642
00:38:27,274 --> 00:38:35,254
We have all over a hundred people in our factory in Allentown, amazing team that are
focused on bringing that product to life and executing the production of the business.

643
00:38:35,254 --> 00:38:40,102
everyone is like full into function and my job is, you

644
00:38:40,864 --> 00:38:45,046
I dip into all the functions and make sure that, you know, keep the train on the tracks.

645
00:38:45,046 --> 00:38:47,257
And you know what's amazing about it as well?

646
00:38:47,478 --> 00:38:57,243
I bring my experience to the table and intuition is informed by experience, but I also
learn every day, which is amazing.

647
00:38:57,243 --> 00:39:00,785
We have so many smart people at the company, you know, headquarters, Allentown.

648
00:39:00,785 --> 00:39:04,747
um You know, I'm not a trained refrigeration technician.

649
00:39:04,747 --> 00:39:06,258
You want to learn about refrigeration?

650
00:39:06,258 --> 00:39:09,510
my gosh, it's an incredible, amazing world.

651
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:10,412
I learned stuff.

652
00:39:10,412 --> 00:39:11,623
I've learned things about accounting.

653
00:39:11,623 --> 00:39:16,566
I've learned things about marketing because we've brought subject matter experts to the
table.

654
00:39:16,566 --> 00:39:25,872
And then the trick is it's taking all of those inputs, all of that information
concurrently, and then using that to make an informed business decision.

655
00:39:26,453 --> 00:39:27,224
What does marketing need?

656
00:39:27,224 --> 00:39:27,824
What is Opsi?

657
00:39:27,824 --> 00:39:28,304
What is sales?

658
00:39:28,304 --> 00:39:29,775
What is engineering, data tech?

659
00:39:29,775 --> 00:39:37,541
How do you assimilate all that information and then inform either an investment or
personnel decision or strategy?

660
00:39:37,541 --> 00:39:39,714
That's part of the trick.

661
00:39:39,714 --> 00:39:44,319
And it's not easy, because the information flow is voluminous.

662
00:39:44,546 --> 00:39:50,918
What's your approach to talent acquisition since you have all these parts of these
separate businesses that we see as one brand.

663
00:39:50,980 --> 00:39:52,774
What's your approach to talent acquisition?

664
00:39:52,774 --> 00:39:55,884
Is there a general approach to all those areas if you're not the expert in them?

665
00:39:55,884 --> 00:39:56,254
Yes.

666
00:39:56,254 --> 00:39:57,185
So great question.

667
00:39:57,185 --> 00:40:00,036
So we've hired both kind of all around athletes.

668
00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:08,349
So I mentioned we've hired a lot of kind of former kind of classically trained consultants
who've seen a lot of different businesses and again, bring kind of this first principles

669
00:40:08,349 --> 00:40:09,610
problem solving to issues.

670
00:40:09,610 --> 00:40:11,791
And we've also hired subject matter experts.

671
00:40:11,791 --> 00:40:19,369
So people that are like deep in a niche area that's like highly relevant to the business,
whether that's in finance or production.

672
00:40:19,369 --> 00:40:21,205
And we've brought those two people together.

673
00:40:21,205 --> 00:40:23,586
I think interestingly in a lot of these companies,

674
00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:28,990
In the early, like the zero to one days, you really need the all around athletes.

675
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:30,732
People that can kind of do it all.

676
00:40:30,732 --> 00:40:40,523
People that can, mean, literally people that will get on the phone and talk to five
customers to sell product and mitigate the six customer who's angry that the product

677
00:40:40,523 --> 00:40:46,364
didn't show up in time and then build email funnels in Klaviyo to acquire customers.

678
00:40:46,384 --> 00:40:48,586
then, you know, go ship.

679
00:40:49,527 --> 00:40:53,698
That honestly, when you're like a five person team.

680
00:40:53,698 --> 00:40:54,198
Yep.

681
00:40:54,198 --> 00:40:56,279
It's not, I'm only ops for marketing.

682
00:40:56,279 --> 00:40:58,721
It's like, what do we all need to do today?

683
00:40:58,721 --> 00:41:07,886
And it's like, I remember there was a story, um one of our, uh, early, early, one of our
co manufacturers couldn't get a pallet packed in time.

684
00:41:07,886 --> 00:41:22,634
Cause there was a labor shortage, the whole company, six of us at the time, we were in a
freezer packing fresh frozen dog food for like six hours, like 10,000 pounds of product.

685
00:41:22,634 --> 00:41:23,424
Now.

686
00:41:23,490 --> 00:41:25,492
We weren't marketing that day.

687
00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:27,725
We were like operating that day.

688
00:41:27,725 --> 00:41:30,538
It was cold and it was really hot, really tough.

689
00:41:30,538 --> 00:41:36,465
it's not, but what's amazing is we have found people that are, that they're game, you
know.

690
00:41:36,465 --> 00:41:37,665
um

691
00:41:37,665 --> 00:41:38,177
important.

692
00:41:38,177 --> 00:41:42,239
But now as the business evolves eight years later, you have specialists in all the areas.

693
00:41:42,412 --> 00:41:43,423
Yes, yes.

694
00:41:43,423 --> 00:41:45,964
And that's of paramount importance.

695
00:41:45,964 --> 00:41:48,025
you know, I'll give you an example.

696
00:41:48,065 --> 00:41:51,527
These companies at scale, you have to get audited.

697
00:41:51,527 --> 00:42:00,233
There's controllers, there's banks involved, there's like reporting, there's regulatory,
there's all the stakes at scale, the stakes change.

698
00:42:00,233 --> 00:42:06,276
um Contract upstream suppliers with vendors, legal is a reality.

699
00:42:06,276 --> 00:42:08,488
That's like hugely important to me.

700
00:42:08,488 --> 00:42:09,570
So there's a lot of these...

701
00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:18,292
You know, we mentioned before about how easy it is to like start a business, which is
great, but those businesses are not yet professionalized.

702
00:42:18,292 --> 00:42:30,716
You know, ERP systems, warehouse management systems, legal, HR, accounting, like that's,
you start bolting on those pieces and like, those are enablers of large companies that are

703
00:42:30,716 --> 00:42:31,216
scaling.

704
00:42:31,216 --> 00:42:32,496
I just scale.

705
00:42:32,496 --> 00:42:38,218
You have to have those pieces in place and those pieces have sector expertise.

706
00:42:38,218 --> 00:42:39,020
Like,

707
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:42,555
decades of sector expertise and they have to bring that to the table.

708
00:42:42,555 --> 00:42:47,402
Without it, again, you're missing a sail on the boat, for sure.

709
00:42:48,340 --> 00:42:49,361
I could talk to you all day.

710
00:42:49,361 --> 00:42:53,743
is, I love these DTC brands and talking about from bootstrapping.

711
00:42:53,743 --> 00:42:59,245
Cause see, you still have a connection to eight years ago when you started and 10 more
years, you're going to be a little bit more disconnected.

712
00:42:59,245 --> 00:43:02,577
You have the stories, but you're still not going to be as integrated and remembering.

713
00:43:02,577 --> 00:43:04,817
You're still there, which is awesome.

714
00:43:04,942 --> 00:43:06,482
Still there, yes.

715
00:43:06,602 --> 00:43:07,942
My kids remind me every day.

716
00:43:07,942 --> 00:43:15,922
We still talk about it at home and like, know, they, you know, in the early, early days, I
swear to God, we would be like Saturdays and Sundays, my wife and I would be wrapping

717
00:43:15,922 --> 00:43:17,582
fresh frozen dog food in pink.

718
00:43:17,582 --> 00:43:20,342
You know, like the big pink butcher paper from the deli.

719
00:43:20,342 --> 00:43:22,602
wrap like the boars had sandwich in it.

720
00:43:22,702 --> 00:43:24,322
It's like, it's craft.

721
00:43:24,322 --> 00:43:30,322
It's this kind of, we would sit there and wrap, hand wrap food, stack it.

722
00:43:30,322 --> 00:43:34,562
And like my kids, my oldest son, he's 11 now.

723
00:43:34,968 --> 00:43:38,640
You know, he was like six and seven years old and he would, he was there.

724
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:44,163
We'd stack and he'd move the box down to the distribution center, which was our basement.

725
00:43:44,324 --> 00:43:45,184
Okay.

726
00:43:45,184 --> 00:43:46,565
So all of that.

727
00:43:46,565 --> 00:43:51,027
Now that was, you know, I didn't have a lot of friends in those days, you know, at all.

728
00:43:51,027 --> 00:43:52,388
Cause it was like full on.

729
00:43:52,388 --> 00:43:59,032
again, to your earlier question, it's like, why persistence, know, grit, all those things.

730
00:43:59,073 --> 00:43:59,913
Yeah.

731
00:44:00,834 --> 00:44:01,934
They're all real.

732
00:44:02,256 --> 00:44:06,229
What, uh, what question we can wrap it up.

733
00:44:06,229 --> 00:44:11,924
There's all kinds of, have like two or three that I'm like, man, let me dig further into
Russell, we only have a couple of minutes to dig deep.

734
00:44:11,924 --> 00:44:21,502
do you, um, it's a different way to frame this, but what question would you know now go
back and ask that Russell, you know, how we're like, what would have done different and do

735
00:44:21,502 --> 00:44:22,002
you have regrets?

736
00:44:22,002 --> 00:44:22,633
No.

737
00:44:22,633 --> 00:44:29,308
What question now knowing this journey, would you have gone back and asked Russell in the
beginning?

738
00:44:30,670 --> 00:44:32,498
Is there a question you would ask him?

739
00:44:33,614 --> 00:44:34,754
Yeah.

740
00:44:35,794 --> 00:44:39,294
Well, I never thought I'd get this far.

741
00:44:39,294 --> 00:44:45,954
I didn't dream that the business would be at this scale for sure in the early days.

742
00:44:47,334 --> 00:45:00,054
The question I would ask, one interesting question is like, what hire would you have made
sooner in the business?

743
00:45:00,394 --> 00:45:00,814
Right?

744
00:45:00,814 --> 00:45:03,424
Like what skill set do you think

745
00:45:03,424 --> 00:45:07,639
you really need to be successful back to the team point.

746
00:45:07,740 --> 00:45:11,886
And I think we've done a good job at navigating, but HR is also very difficult.

747
00:45:11,886 --> 00:45:13,779
There's people that have come, people that have gone.

748
00:45:13,779 --> 00:45:17,516
So it would be like a team question.

749
00:45:17,516 --> 00:45:20,959
Do know the hire that you need to make to really unlock the business?

750
00:45:20,962 --> 00:45:24,333
Yeah, and we found those hires, for sure.

751
00:45:24,333 --> 00:45:34,026
There's that, and then I think also, there was a lot of the early, early days we
bootstrapped for a long while, right?

752
00:45:34,026 --> 00:45:42,848
I think lot of times entrepreneurs like, they spend too much time trying to figure out the
perfect solution versus like, okay, we've got something here, let's just go for it, right?

753
00:45:42,848 --> 00:45:48,970
I probably was spinning too many plates too early with too many responsibilities and not
breathing enough life into the business.

754
00:45:48,970 --> 00:45:50,200
um

755
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:51,732
to learn that lesson too.

756
00:45:52,430 --> 00:45:53,534
but now we know.

757
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:54,992
How we know.

758
00:45:55,842 --> 00:45:56,824
Tell you what.

759
00:45:56,824 --> 00:45:57,635
All right, man.

760
00:45:57,635 --> 00:45:59,268
Ralph the Brewer, spot and tango.

761
00:45:59,268 --> 00:46:00,149
What a cool brand.

762
00:46:00,149 --> 00:46:01,022
uh

763
00:46:01,022 --> 00:46:04,022
you so much for having me You're a local Ohio guy.

764
00:46:04,022 --> 00:46:04,862
from Cleveland originally.

765
00:46:04,862 --> 00:46:05,602
really appreciate the conversation.

766
00:46:05,602 --> 00:46:07,262
Great questions.

767
00:46:08,142 --> 00:46:12,002
Oftentimes folks like digging into the commercial elements more.

768
00:46:12,002 --> 00:46:14,762
This is more like puritanical introspective.

769
00:46:14,762 --> 00:46:16,652
really honestly, I mean that.

770
00:46:16,652 --> 00:46:17,322
Yeah, thank you.

771
00:46:17,322 --> 00:46:25,768
think all the people listening, you know what they say right now in the entire world, one
in five people at any given moment are either thinking about a business or starting one.

772
00:46:25,768 --> 00:46:28,690
And so what that means is these conversations are relevant.

773
00:46:29,486 --> 00:46:29,937
Amazing.

774
00:46:29,937 --> 00:46:31,491
And I believe that statistic for sure.

775
00:46:31,491 --> 00:46:33,045
That's the American dream.

776
00:46:33,045 --> 00:46:35,943
Entrepreneurship is in everybody for sure.

777
00:46:35,943 --> 00:46:36,745
I love that.

778
00:46:36,745 --> 00:46:37,422
That's that.

779
00:46:37,422 --> 00:46:40,162
Bot and Tango, drive it all the way.

780
00:46:41,042 --> 00:46:41,502
Awesome.

781
00:46:41,502 --> 00:46:42,682
Hey, what's the one place?

782
00:46:42,682 --> 00:46:43,422
Just go to the brand.

783
00:46:43,422 --> 00:46:46,062
I'm sure you have a LinkedIn and all that, go to the brand or go to you.

784
00:46:46,062 --> 00:46:48,482
spot and tango.com.

785
00:46:48,902 --> 00:46:50,342
That's where you learn more about us.

786
00:46:50,382 --> 00:46:52,857
All right, man, and we'll check out all the entertainment that you guys do.

787
00:46:52,857 --> 00:46:56,634
thanks for jumping in.