#175 - Why Hard-Working Entrepreneurs Still Struggle to Scale: Michael Walsh

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One of the mistakes a lot of people make is they actually think there's one world rather
than eight billion iterations of it.

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I mean, we all see the world a little bit differently and we interact with what we see,
but then we don't understand when somebody else interacts differently.

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It's like, don't they understand?

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They just don't understand life.

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And it's like, well, actually they understand it from their shoes.

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They just don't understand it from ours.

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All right.

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You all welcome back to another awesome episode of the necessary entrepreneur.

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Not awesome because of me.

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It's because the guests on the other end.

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So today, um, I have the opportunity to welcome the guest, Michael Walsh.

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He's a founder and CEO of Walsh business Institute.

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He also goes by WBI.

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Michael works with entrepreneurs and leadership teams to help them scale businesses
through operational clarity, leadership discipline, and systems that actually get used,

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not just talked about.

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His work sits at the intersection of strategy, execution, and personal responsibility.

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And today we're going to talk about what really breaks as companies grow and what leaders
have to fix in themselves before they can fix the business.

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I'm pumped about the conversation.

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Welcome Michael.

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Yeah, we can talk about books you've written in 2025 and, and all this stuff, but why do
you think I'm just going to come out and just hitting big?

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We're in, I'm in New York city today, Europe and Vancouver, and having some great
entrepreneurial and in depth and AI is trickling into things, but why is business growth

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so hard even after entrepreneurs have gotten over this hurdle of a million or 2 million in
revenue?

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Why is it so hard?

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Well, everybody thinks that once I've gotten my first name, first of all, the first thing
that people do is the minute they want to get into business, their first goal is to hit

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that million.

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And then they hit the million and they think that they will not, now I know how to do a
business.

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Except if you take a look at a business at a million and the same business at 2 million
and the same business at five, the same business at 10.

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And even if you want to go farther to the same business at 20 million, you know,

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Take a look and think about this.

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What is it that they share?

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They got the same product, hopefully, sometimes even that changes.

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If they have the same founder, they'll have the same core values.

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So the value set goes with the founder and they may have a few of the same people.

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But that's about it.

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Everything else.

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can't run on the same systems, right?

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That's probably what's breaking.

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You can't run all those.

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Everybody thinks that, you know, people come and people go, but your systems are there to
stay there reliable.

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Well, that's not true at all breaks.

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Like you're literally in four or five different businesses as you go, because think about
it, could you run a $10 million business with the structures that are there for a $2

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million business?

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No, I faced the same struggle when I was growing my businesses.

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two million did not get me to five and it was a hard hurdle to overcome.

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Absolutely.

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And that's because all the structures that you put in for the, know, first of all, you get
past the first million.

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Okay.

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A lot of people think that the million is a dream thing, but you know, we actually have
it.

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We have a formal technical term for, for what the zone of a million is, especially in a
service based business.

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Cause that's where, you know, it's all delivered by the people.

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That's called the zone of hell.

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Okay.

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People, you are literally too big for the structures you've had and you're too small for
what's coming next.

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you and and there's no extra money to deal with because a million dollars is a lot of
money and so as they continue to grow what happens is you is you get closer and closer to

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two million now I've got 12 15 people and I'm in a situation where I can't manage them
properly so the so the first thing that people do is they say well guess I need a manager

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well who's the person on my team I trust the most I can get them to manage so they might
have the you know Max could be the the highest individual contributor and you know what I

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trust Max he does a great job

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And so, you know what?

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And he, every single time he asks, you know, I ask him to get stuff done, he's always
getting it done.

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So I'll make him my manager because I trust him the most.

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Except the same skills it takes to deliver a result are different than the, you know, what
it takes to actually manage other people.

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And as a result, you're in a situation where I've got to mismatch a skill.

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So I take, I take Max out of an area where you might be really good with the hopes that
the same skills that he's using there.

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will actually help them succeed as a manager and the skills you need as a manager are the
opposite.

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Now that's just getting to do the end of it.

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Yeah.

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I don't think oh what I found, I don't know, you this is nice that we didn't have any
previous context and I'm sitting here listening and like, man, if we all would have known

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these rules beforehand, uh you know, I think really my profit was the same from one to 2
million as it was at 5 million.

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It only started changing then.

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Yeah.

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It really did.

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There's that we could sit here and probably talk for three hours about the reasons why.

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But at that moment,

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somewhere, I guess it depends on business you're into that 5 million mark.

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We had figured some things out.

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We had developed some efficiencies.

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kind of, and so that 5 million gets us north of 10 and you're starting to print money.

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And then what I always said is you all, now we have real money to build this thing with.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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Because until then you just don't have enough money to go around and there's too many um
precarious turns that you, that you stumble into along the way.

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You know, the thing that I do find though, is that entrepreneurs are pretty savvy group.

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mean, it takes a lot to get into business and, and, know, if you can see a problem, you
can figure it out.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Or you can get the resources to figure it out.

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If you can't see the problem, but you know it exists.

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You know what?

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Usually you can figure those out too.

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The ones that get us is if you can't see the problem and you have no idea it even exists
while it's got you in its grips, those are the ones we struggle with.

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And so that's the stuff that lurks beneath the surface.

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I mean, you can figure out a marketing or a business development issue.

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You can figure out operational issues.

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You can even figure out money and metrics and things.

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But I got to tell you, the stuff that lurks beneath the surface, those are the ones that
really get us.

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So where do you start when you pick up the phone?

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Used to be pick up the phone.

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Now you check your Instagram inbox.

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Now you check your, every once in a while we'll be on text messages.

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You get a video.

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Where do you start when that person says, I'm really struggling.

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I received a referral.

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I saw that Walsh business business Institute does this.

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I'm at 2 million.

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I'm stuck.

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Where do you start?

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Well, I find out what they want is the first thing, because if what they just want to do
is to correct the problems that are there and then continue on at 2 million, that's one

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set of conversations.

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And sometimes we can just come in and give them a hand and sort of tweak something and
help them go.

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ah If they're stuck because they really want to grow their business and make an impact in
some meaningful way, those are usually the people that end up wanting to work with us on a

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longer term basis.

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And so what I do is I actually take a picture of everything and I

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try to understand what are the working flows between and among the people, including
between the people in the company and the customers, obviously, but also with suppliers

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and that, I just want to understand where are the flows of the business.

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But then I go, what are the underlying issues that are beneath the surface of the
business?

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if I can get to, so what are the structures they're using?

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To what extent have they unstripped their structures?

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How are they taking care of their people?

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To what extent have they got people as a priority?

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You know, it's interesting.

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want to grow our people and we want to, you everybody loves their people until the people
show up as a big threat.

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And by the time it doesn't take many people to actually start showing up as a threat with
some companies, it could be as few as 20 people.

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Others, it could be 30.

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Others, it could be 50.

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It depends on, you know, what kind of project based company, let's say I have a project
based company.

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If I deal with large projects, I know how to work with people up to 30 or 40, you know,
strong.

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But what happens is that.

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As I have stripped my structures and I find that there's way more people here and I'm
trying to keep up with all that.

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try to, you know, when I put in the new structures, I put in the structure to try to get
them to do what I want them to do, which really you're trying to control people with the

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structures.

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And I don't know, Mark, last time I checked, nobody really wants to be controlled.

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And so what happens is that's when you start losing the edge that people can break, you
know,

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One of the biggest mistakes people make is they actually try the structures to corral the
people rather than putting in structures that make it easy for people to bring their best.

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And it's hard to think of how do I make people be at their best when I feel like I'm stuck
and I can't get anything right.

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So it's sort of a, it's a counterintuitive mechanism.

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It's like skiing.

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you're not, know, the way to stop from falling is to lean into the hill.

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And that just feels wrong for your body.

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But if you don't do it, spend your

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day on your butt instead of on the skis, you know?

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Yeah.

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So, so, you know, that's the kind of stuff that that that's where we look as I look, what
are the structures?

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What are serving them?

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What are not serving?

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Is there something that we can talk about like from a practical standpoint that if I make
this big statement of what impedes growth from established businesses?

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Is there something that right because if there's an established business I know and that
you know and all these entrepreneurs that I've connected with now Kudos to them because

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they accomplished something and did something surviving for three to five years that the
majority of businesses don't so there's something that got them there

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But then what is impeding them now?

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Cause it's like, Hey, kudos and credit for doing all this and winning.

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But what's the thing now?

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mean, if there's 20 of them, there's 20, is there one that really like there it is again.

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um Well, one of the basic ones that nobody realizes is we don't understand what management
is.

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I mean, the picture that we have for management, most people think the management is, I'm
the boss, I'm accountable for the overall result.

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You're the employees, your job is to deliver it and my job is to tell you what to do and
your job is to follow what I do and together we should make this work.

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And it's just not how it works when it works well.

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In fact, that's a way to actually alienate people.

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know, definition of management

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that we've got now, uh we didn't always have.

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Before the 19th century and the 19th century and earlier, mean, there was uh promotions to
management from a political realm, but functional management was always, learn from the

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master.

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So if you were an engineer and I was your underling, I'd do all the Joe jobs and you'd
teach me how to be an engineer.

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Or if you were a doctor or an architect or a blacksmith or a carpenter.

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You um you'd actually teach me your craft and my job would be to support you in the
delivery of stuff.

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It's only when the industrial age came by and we had assembly lines, you can't put a bunch
of veterans with their apprentices all on the same assembly line because you get a lumpy

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assembly line.

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So instead of teaching me six things, you'd have six of me each doing one thing.

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And as a result, what we became is cogs in a system.

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And you know what?

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Notwithstanding how much the employees hated it, it really worked.

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to the store i mean a better than steel date they used to be nine linear feet of steel per
minute processing cut nine linear feet of steel per minute at the turn of the century and

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that you know going from eighteen hundred nineteen hundred.

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You know they brought in uh management thinking and within three or four months they went
from nine linear feet to fifty linear feet.

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Because i said instead of dragging the materials over here what are we just.

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Park them here instead of way.

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I mean, there's so many, you why don't we cool down half the lathe at the time?

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Now both sides of the lathe all once by throwing water on it and everybody has to wait.

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I mean, there was so much that had to go into the thinking and it really, really worked.

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And as long as no matter how complicated the algorithm, if the the inputs were the same
and the outcomes were the same, no matter how complicated this was, I could break it down

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into its parts and parse it out to people.

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Now, what we what's happened since is we've gone into the information age.

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Okay.

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And a network world now it's not about a complicated algorithm.

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It's, actually a complex one.

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You need everybody's brain at the table.

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You could hold a gun to my head and say, lift that rock.

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And I go, and then I'd lift the rock.

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But if you hold a gun to my head and say, be creative, the brain just doesn't work that
way.

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And you need my brain at the table or else I'm like, you know, the groups of the group of
people are who get the job done.

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And so the manager has been.

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has been shifted from a thing where they're the boss and accountable, although they're
still treated as if that's the case, to one where really they're an ally and their job is

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to support the people and but leave it to the people to, you know, including the manager
to collectively figure out the solutions because the problems are way more complex than

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they used to be in a service based world.

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So when I find that that a manager understands that his or her job is to really work with
the people, now they still have logistics and things that they take care of.

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But it's up to the people to generate the result.

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That's actually where the work happens.

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So the misunderstanding of uh a manager's role really gets in the way.

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People think that I'm accountable for a larger result.

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That's not accurate.

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My job as a manager is to support you in your thinking.

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Because when I was an individual um contributor, it's the expansion of my thinking that
allowed me to figure out how to get more done with less.

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And that thinking is what I get to pass along.

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The minute I tell you what to do, I get in the way of your thinking.

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And now it becomes a leader with a thousand helpers rather than people that are actually
evolving their thinking to generate a result.

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So if you had to point to one of them, that's a big one.

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We're talking about culture and values pretty much,

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Well, that absolutely.

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And I wouldn't, I wouldn't actually limit it to that.

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I'm talking about functional activities on a day in day out basis is how you work with
your people.

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00:14:35,501 --> 00:14:38,202
And, and it includes your culture and your values for sure.

210
00:14:38,202 --> 00:14:45,364
Cause if you don't respect your people, then it doesn't matter that you, you're just not
going to get a result, but even people who respect them and like everybody loves their

211
00:14:45,364 --> 00:14:50,005
people until they get so big that they're finding that people are not doing what I'm
supposed that they're supposed to do.

212
00:14:50,005 --> 00:14:53,090
So then I try to get them to do that through control rather than.

213
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:56,373
finding out what they need and I gotta make sure I'm hiring right.

214
00:14:56,373 --> 00:14:57,854
It's probably half the game.

215
00:14:57,854 --> 00:15:03,079
But if I've got the right people on my team, let them do their job and get out of the way.

216
00:15:03,079 --> 00:15:07,612
I can build teams based on complementary strengths and collectively they'll get the job
done.

217
00:15:07,874 --> 00:15:09,756
Is there another piece that stacks on top of this?

218
00:15:09,756 --> 00:15:16,624
Or do you think we vetted it out about this sense of having all the employees, uh people
put all kinds of different terms to them, right?

219
00:15:16,624 --> 00:15:23,772
Partners and associates, but all the people that are responsible for running the systems
to have them have a sense of ownership.

220
00:15:23,772 --> 00:15:25,194
Is there another piece?

221
00:15:25,646 --> 00:15:30,886
Yeah, I'd say that I'd say it's not that stacks on top, but I'd say that's a foundation
for underneath.

222
00:15:30,886 --> 00:15:42,466
One of the core pieces that I find is if people have a really basic understanding of four
different components of human behavior, you can understand your people at a whole

223
00:15:42,466 --> 00:15:43,486
different level.

224
00:15:43,486 --> 00:15:45,386
Then you can actually navigate your way through it.

225
00:15:45,386 --> 00:15:49,426
And you don't have to try to you don't have to try to constrain a problem with systems.

226
00:15:49,426 --> 00:15:53,666
And then the systems you put in can actually help them do their job better, which is what
we all want.

227
00:15:53,666 --> 00:15:54,508
Ultimately.

228
00:15:54,508 --> 00:16:00,502
And the four behaviors that I look at is, know, we have a biological need for survival.

229
00:16:01,103 --> 00:16:03,594
And we have an innate desire to thrive.

230
00:16:03,594 --> 00:16:08,528
Now survival is about us and protecting ourselves or those who we deem as part of us.

231
00:16:08,528 --> 00:16:10,489
Like if it's with my family, it's me.

232
00:16:10,489 --> 00:16:18,294
If it's the people in my company versus somebody else's company, that we'd go for survival
in that whatever I deem to be, or we deem to be our group.

233
00:16:18,435 --> 00:16:23,438
The innate desire to thrive is also present and you don't need to have all your survival
needs

234
00:16:23,438 --> 00:16:28,720
covered before you thrive because otherwise why would a five year old ever share a toy?

235
00:16:29,181 --> 00:16:32,102
But but both occur concurrently.

236
00:16:32,102 --> 00:16:35,463
But if there's a threat to my survival, I'll go there first.

237
00:16:35,463 --> 00:16:42,616
So if I understand that that thing is there and it's ever present in my job, know, and
people say, you know, how does psychologically safe workplace?

238
00:16:42,616 --> 00:16:47,088
Well, that sounds nice, but it's like the poor guy is scared.

239
00:16:47,709 --> 00:16:48,949
He's worried about his family.

240
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:50,836
He's worried that he's going to lose his job.

241
00:16:50,836 --> 00:16:53,988
settle them down and he'll get his brain to the table.

242
00:16:53,988 --> 00:16:55,630
I mean, it's just functional.

243
00:16:55,630 --> 00:17:03,025
And if you can actually create an environment where people don't have to worry about
consequences like the boss stealing their ideas or actually competing with somebody

244
00:17:03,025 --> 00:17:07,468
they're supposed to be collaborating with, those kinds of things, then they really do want
to contribute.

245
00:17:07,468 --> 00:17:09,740
If you've got the right people, they do want to contribute.

246
00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:11,211
I've got survived thrive.

247
00:17:11,211 --> 00:17:15,044
The third one is we have both the need and the ability to connect.

248
00:17:15,284 --> 00:17:18,006
And the fourth one is we actually have this

249
00:17:18,081 --> 00:17:21,063
really interesting ability to adapt to a changing environment.

250
00:17:21,063 --> 00:17:26,166
Even if we don't like the environment that's evolving, we know how to adapt to survive it.

251
00:17:26,166 --> 00:17:29,408
Okay, so that's part of our survival and even our thriving skills.

252
00:17:29,408 --> 00:17:41,065
So if I look at survive, thrive, and adapt, understanding those makes it not some utopian
kumbaya, everybody loves everybody thing, but actually, you know what?

253
00:17:41,065 --> 00:17:46,358
Supporting human behavior becomes a really powerful, hard-nosed

254
00:17:47,886 --> 00:17:53,128
process that makes a huge impact on a business and is way more fun for everybody.

255
00:17:53,592 --> 00:18:02,965
Does this line up with these, you talk about two core issues, I believe, that often clash
and create friction inside companies.

256
00:18:02,965 --> 00:18:06,750
And can you break those down and how the leaders can get ahead of them?

257
00:18:07,352 --> 00:18:10,783
Well, the two things are one, outstripping your structures.

258
00:18:11,263 --> 00:18:17,085
And the second one is understanding the people and what are the things that actually drive
them.

259
00:18:17,305 --> 00:18:27,838
So the first job is if I know what structures are gonna break and when, the more I can
understand about, you know, how the longevity of certain structures, then I can actually

260
00:18:27,838 --> 00:18:35,498
anticipate what's gonna break and I can actually start planting the seeds for the
replacement structures.

261
00:18:35,498 --> 00:18:44,481
Instead, if it could be as simple as, you know, from a million to 20 million, OK, you're
probably going to go through three accounting systems.

262
00:18:45,202 --> 00:18:54,386
So why wait till I'm at eight or nine million before I go away from QuickBooks or Sage,
you know, the basic version of Sage, because I'm stretching it so thin that it's going to

263
00:18:54,386 --> 00:18:56,607
be really painful to do the next one.

264
00:18:56,607 --> 00:19:04,878
Whereas if I'm at four million or five million and you know what things are going on, my
QuickBooks doesn't cost a lot, but the next level program doesn't cost that much more.

265
00:19:04,878 --> 00:19:14,398
You know, there is a little bit of investment, what happens is if I have at four or five
million, if I start getting the metrics and being able to measure things that I couldn't

266
00:19:14,398 --> 00:19:17,978
measure just with QuickBooks, even though QuickBooks will tell you they can measure
anything.

267
00:19:17,978 --> 00:19:22,298
I mean, you can run a hundred million dollar company on QuickBooks, according to the
people who sell QuickBooks.

268
00:19:22,298 --> 00:19:25,058
But but the other side of it, and they'll say, no, we can't.

269
00:19:25,058 --> 00:19:26,418
can only go to 20 million.

270
00:19:26,418 --> 00:19:26,718
Right.

271
00:19:26,718 --> 00:19:29,318
Like as if you could go to 20 million on QuickBooks.

272
00:19:29,318 --> 00:19:32,338
But I haven't heard salespeople for QuickBooks tell people that.

273
00:19:32,338 --> 00:19:32,686
mean.

274
00:19:32,686 --> 00:19:38,086
You know, so everybody knows how great their system is, but the truth is functionally,
it's not quite as strong as they think.

275
00:19:38,086 --> 00:19:45,226
So just changing out the system and saying, I'm going to see the biggest problem that you
run into it about five million is that.

276
00:19:45,546 --> 00:19:50,066
To get past two million, I had to figure out how to have people work together well in
teams.

277
00:19:50,506 --> 00:19:54,006
OK, and how do I set it up so that they actually work with each other?

278
00:19:54,006 --> 00:19:58,026
They're not just taking direction from somebody, and if I can build that, then I'm in good
shape.

279
00:19:58,026 --> 00:20:00,466
And as long as I got a low number of teams, it's easy.

280
00:20:00,466 --> 00:20:02,626
By the time you're at about five million.

281
00:20:02,646 --> 00:20:13,416
You start to see uh profit drop, start to see quality issues arise, you start to see
people late, you start to see people eating through a lot of the finances for the mandate

282
00:20:13,416 --> 00:20:18,660
without the equivalent progress on the actual percentage completion of a project.

283
00:20:18,660 --> 00:20:19,861
Things like that happen.

284
00:20:19,861 --> 00:20:26,007
And the reason is because there's too many teams and I've had to promote people that
actually don't know how to support these teams.

285
00:20:26,007 --> 00:20:30,420
And so what happens is the measures that I'm using at five million.

286
00:20:30,518 --> 00:20:37,061
are usually just off the financial numbers and the financial software.

287
00:20:37,081 --> 00:20:40,922
But the financial software doesn't tell you how far along the team is.

288
00:20:40,922 --> 00:20:50,887
So if I'm 65 % of the way through my fee, and I only have 25 % of the actual percentage
completion of the project, I need a way to figure that out.

289
00:20:50,887 --> 00:20:56,989
And sometimes it's as simple as having somebody go talk to each week, you talk to your
team leaders and you say, where are you at?

290
00:20:56,989 --> 00:20:58,722
Where are you having a difficulty?

291
00:20:58,722 --> 00:21:06,015
You know, is there somebody we could swap out or somebody we could add to the to the
resource that knows more about what they're doing rather than having too many juniors that

292
00:21:06,015 --> 00:21:07,985
are burning through a feed, for example.

293
00:21:07,985 --> 00:21:14,388
And that's one area at about five million where you do see a lot of burn, you know, and
it's just eating up profit.

294
00:21:14,468 --> 00:21:21,030
So so there's specific str- I mean, there's a bunch of them, but that's a that's one
example of one, you know, associated with finance.

295
00:21:21,622 --> 00:21:30,090
You also uh talk about there's a contrast of two different perspectives about growing
businesses.

296
00:21:30,190 --> 00:21:30,771
Yes.

297
00:21:30,771 --> 00:21:36,837
And, know, one's the well oiled machine and the other's this intelligent ecosystem.

298
00:21:36,837 --> 00:21:41,041
Why is the shift in that thinking matter from where it starts to where it needs to go?

299
00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:42,642
Why is that important?

300
00:21:43,074 --> 00:21:55,404
Well, what, what people, people cling to structures and they cling to systems and they
cling to the notion of a well-oiled machine because if at least it feels like I have some

301
00:21:55,404 --> 00:22:01,969
semblance of control, because as you grow the numbers of people, feels a little bit like
hurting cats.

302
00:22:02,270 --> 00:22:12,678
Now, if you take a look, you know, if I've got four people in a company, if I have four
staff, there's six one-on-one relationships between the four people and the staff.

303
00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:18,409
Okay, if I go to nine people in the staff just over double, I don't I'm not at six.

304
00:22:18,409 --> 00:22:22,171
I'm at thirty six one on one relationships with nine people.

305
00:22:22,171 --> 00:22:30,436
If I go to twenty five people, which is not which is not a big huge company, there are
three hundred one on one relationships that are there.

306
00:22:30,436 --> 00:22:36,860
OK, and if I go from twenty five to fifty, that three hundred jumps to twelve hundred
twenty five one on one relationships that are there.

307
00:22:36,860 --> 00:22:38,931
And don't kid yourself in a fifty person company.

308
00:22:38,931 --> 00:22:40,442
Everybody really does know everybody else.

309
00:22:40,442 --> 00:22:41,294
Now they may not.

310
00:22:41,294 --> 00:22:46,494
You know, they may not hang out with them a lot, but they know them by name and you know,
some of them they're closer to than others.

311
00:22:46,494 --> 00:22:51,374
Now the 1225 jumps almost 5,000 if I go to from 50 to 100 relationships.

312
00:22:51,374 --> 00:22:54,294
That's just too unwieldy.

313
00:22:54,294 --> 00:22:59,734
So that's why people go to a structure and they say, well, if I treat this like a
well-oiled machine, here's your role.

314
00:22:59,734 --> 00:23:01,934
Well, that's exactly what was happening in the industrial age.

315
00:23:01,934 --> 00:23:04,314
People were treating people like cogs in a system.

316
00:23:04,314 --> 00:23:07,008
And it was interesting because the employees hated it.

317
00:23:07,008 --> 00:23:11,882
Even though was way more lucrative for bosses, the employees stated they started
sabotaging machines and everything like that.

318
00:23:11,882 --> 00:23:14,363
The bosses just started making them pay for those changes.

319
00:23:14,363 --> 00:23:21,949
And if they didn't want to pay for them, you know, to fix their sabotage, they got fired
and then bringing the three people to cover the three parts of the role they used to

320
00:23:21,949 --> 00:23:22,449
cover.

321
00:23:22,449 --> 00:23:25,191
And they'd end up, you know, working out fine.

322
00:23:25,191 --> 00:23:35,488
So what happened was that I have this illusion that, that I actually have some control if
I treat people like a machine in an ecosystem.

323
00:23:35,752 --> 00:23:40,543
I'm in a situation where that feels so unwieldy.

324
00:23:41,144 --> 00:23:50,686
You know, the difference though is I look at the ownership and I look at who benefits in a
well-oiled machine.

325
00:23:50,786 --> 00:23:57,068
Whoever owns the machine is the beneficiary, but the people are actually cogs within the
machine.

326
00:23:57,068 --> 00:23:58,948
So if you want a car, okay.

327
00:23:58,948 --> 00:24:03,240
I asked one guy, said, you know, who benefits from your car?

328
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,864
He says, my kids.

329
00:24:04,864 --> 00:24:07,665
It's just like I see it from time to time in the driveway.

330
00:24:07,665 --> 00:24:08,735
I don't get my car anymore.

331
00:24:08,735 --> 00:24:14,237
I said, OK, but you and your family are all the so you're saying they're functionally the
beneficiaries of your car.

332
00:24:14,237 --> 00:24:15,897
You're just the financial custodians.

333
00:24:15,897 --> 00:24:16,577
That car pieces.

334
00:24:16,577 --> 00:24:17,385
Yes, pretty much.

335
00:24:17,385 --> 00:24:21,038
I said, so your family owns that car for your family's benefit.

336
00:24:21,038 --> 00:24:22,539
Now think of a business.

337
00:24:22,539 --> 00:24:29,511
So if the business is there for the benefit of its owners, the people in the business are
like the shock absorbers and the electrical system.

338
00:24:29,511 --> 00:24:30,871
They're actually parts of the car.

339
00:24:30,871 --> 00:24:32,482
They're not the people riding in it.

340
00:24:32,482 --> 00:24:34,102
You know, they're the parts of it.

341
00:24:34,102 --> 00:24:41,304
In an ecosystem, it's got to be there for the owners, it's there for the clients, it's
there for suppliers, it's also there for the staff, it's got to be there for everybody.

342
00:24:41,304 --> 00:24:47,566
And really, an ecosystem is uh just a fancy way of saying how people work together for
everybody's benefit.

343
00:24:47,566 --> 00:24:49,196
So you have to set something up.

344
00:24:49,196 --> 00:25:01,239
Now that looks more hairy and ornery initially, but if I can understand those four little
components of human behavior and understand how people work, the truth is there's, you

345
00:25:01,239 --> 00:25:03,890
see, there's structure to behavior.

346
00:25:04,386 --> 00:25:13,849
And so knowing that there's structure to behavior, if I just understand some of these
things now, given that everybody's got the need to survive, you know, everybody thinks

347
00:25:13,849 --> 00:25:17,149
that your past is what gives you your future and it doesn't.

348
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:18,250
Okay.

349
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:21,001
Or your past gives you your present looking into the future.

350
00:25:21,001 --> 00:25:24,071
It's your perceived future that shapes your present.

351
00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:33,694
You know, I saw studies on this and I, know, people were asked when, when do people at the
peak, um, satisfaction of a vacation?

352
00:25:34,102 --> 00:25:37,786
And the response ended up being three weeks before the thing starts.

353
00:25:38,568 --> 00:25:40,400
I mean, what do you do in two days before it starts?

354
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,815
You're everything organized, you're making sure everybody's got everything covered.

355
00:25:43,815 --> 00:25:46,157
And then what are you doing when you get on the plane?

356
00:25:46,819 --> 00:25:47,719
Right.

357
00:25:47,901 --> 00:25:49,036
And then you get to the place.

358
00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:52,242
It like day two or three of a week, is what I would have thought.

359
00:25:52,242 --> 00:25:53,203
Exactly.

360
00:25:53,203 --> 00:25:58,977
And then you get there and you go, okay, this is not quite as nice as the brochures said.

361
00:25:58,977 --> 00:26:00,849
well, we'll make it work and all that.

362
00:26:00,849 --> 00:26:11,437
So let's say I'm on a two-week vacation and on day one, I opened the balcony doors on my
second floor, let's say looking over the beach and I see this pristine white sand and a

363
00:26:11,437 --> 00:26:16,281
sort of an aqua blue ocean or landmass right off that.

364
00:26:16,281 --> 00:26:18,312
And it just looks great.

365
00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:24,034
Now, let's say, you know, the family's frolicking in the sand and we're having fun in this
location.

366
00:26:24,034 --> 00:26:30,939
By the last day, when I look at that same thing again, it doesn't quite look as magic as
it did on day one.

367
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,041
Well, where's my energy?

368
00:26:32,041 --> 00:26:36,755
My energy is getting myself sorted out to get home and what do I have to walk into a work?

369
00:26:36,755 --> 00:26:44,911
I may be, know, rested and excited to go back to work or I may go, I wish I could spend
another week here or, know, wherever it is, but it's always our perceived future that

370
00:26:44,911 --> 00:26:45,672
shapes your present.

371
00:26:45,672 --> 00:26:48,844
So if your perceived future is brighter,

372
00:26:49,144 --> 00:26:50,754
You're happy in the present.

373
00:26:50,795 --> 00:26:57,678
If your perceived future is dim or stuck, like you feel like you're in a dead end, then
you're not very happy in your present.

374
00:26:57,678 --> 00:27:04,482
know, a lot of people tell uh their staff, a lot of people tell their kids, you know, you
have a bad attitude, change your attitude.

375
00:27:04,482 --> 00:27:07,123
Well, they can't, and that's due to function of your feelings.

376
00:27:07,123 --> 00:27:14,236
If you see somebody that's walking around with a bad attitude, what you want to do is you
want to get to understand what's the future they're perceiving.

377
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,910
Where do they see the impediment?

378
00:27:15,910 --> 00:27:17,211
Where do they see they're going to get stuck?

379
00:27:17,211 --> 00:27:21,572
And if I'm a manager and I see an employee in that situation, it's like, wow.

380
00:27:21,572 --> 00:27:24,233
So they don't see that they've got any access to it.

381
00:27:24,233 --> 00:27:28,574
Well, the truth is they've got eight of the 12 skills they're going to need for that next
promotion.

382
00:27:28,574 --> 00:27:33,075
Why don't I just show them the progress they've made, help them get those other four
skills.

383
00:27:33,075 --> 00:27:36,136
And next thing you know, I've got somebody that feels like they're on the right track
again.

384
00:27:36,136 --> 00:27:38,137
I've got, I get their energy back.

385
00:27:38,137 --> 00:27:42,578
And you know that when people bring positive energy to a company, can be electric.

386
00:27:42,670 --> 00:27:43,630
Absolutely.

387
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:52,590
So you, I think the last book you wrote was in 2025, which we're just a month out of it,
but mid year it was called freedom by design.

388
00:27:53,670 --> 00:28:00,930
the high level of it was it's a, it's a growth framework for established business owners
who they feel stuck in their business.

389
00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:06,350
And I'm sure it's a combination of trying to take their life back and how can I make this
what I envisioned it to be?

390
00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:08,490
And not to work in the business, right?

391
00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:10,130
To work on the business.

392
00:28:11,426 --> 00:28:14,172
What was your idea and then the outcome of this book?

393
00:28:14,172 --> 00:28:16,737
it have your intended outcome?

394
00:28:16,737 --> 00:28:19,872
it beneficial to your customers and clients?

395
00:28:20,302 --> 00:28:29,767
Well, what I found was that, I mean, what we cover in the book is after somebody's passed
their first million, what are the danger zones for those hidden issues that lurk beneath

396
00:28:29,767 --> 00:28:32,539
the, you know, the surface of a business?

397
00:28:32,539 --> 00:28:42,494
And we looked at them at, somebody approaches 2 million, just after they hit five, when
they're between eight and 10, and then in this big chasm between 12 million and 20

398
00:28:42,494 --> 00:28:46,847
million, you know, there's all different types of issues, but they're fed from the same
things.

399
00:28:46,847 --> 00:28:47,777
And that's two things.

400
00:28:47,777 --> 00:28:49,738
One is outstripping your structures.

401
00:28:49,774 --> 00:28:56,618
and just the increased number of people and try to figure out how to work with those two.

402
00:28:56,618 --> 00:29:07,384
And then from that, what we do is basically give people a seven point framework, not like
some formula to follow, because I don't believe there's a formula.

403
00:29:07,664 --> 00:29:10,816
Here's the thing, there are as many ways to grow businesses as there are people.

404
00:29:10,816 --> 00:29:16,849
Everybody's got different skills, everybody's got different passions, and even if they had
the same skill, they'd use it differently.

405
00:29:16,849 --> 00:29:18,594
So what we found is by

406
00:29:18,594 --> 00:29:21,796
You know, identifying the fact that yeah, they'll all grow it different way.

407
00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:23,327
The question is, where do the problems sit?

408
00:29:23,327 --> 00:29:24,837
Cause they're all the same.

409
00:29:24,837 --> 00:29:28,569
So if you can help people overcome the problems, then you're in great shape.

410
00:29:28,569 --> 00:29:38,144
So what we've done is as I've written this book and we've gotten it out to people and
working with people with it, what I'm finding is, that they're gaining a lot more freedom

411
00:29:38,485 --> 00:29:42,307
in their business because they can do more of the parts of the business they love.

412
00:29:42,307 --> 00:29:44,058
They got more freedom from their business.

413
00:29:44,058 --> 00:29:46,599
They can actually have a life outside the business.

414
00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:48,618
They get more time off things like that.

415
00:29:48,618 --> 00:29:57,796
And also freedom because of the business, both in terms of their increased wealth and
their increased uh financial freedom, but also their increased ability to generate an

416
00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,088
impact outside of their walls.

417
00:30:00,088 --> 00:30:04,561
So that's been the impact that we're seeing with regards to that.

418
00:30:04,561 --> 00:30:11,277
It's also nurtured the conversation uh with regards to what has a business be excellent.

419
00:30:11,277 --> 00:30:13,318
So we've been having a lot of fun with it.

420
00:30:13,442 --> 00:30:20,171
Yeah, I think in the book you touch on it, but also it's this idea that you say, thinking
big is not enough.

421
00:30:20,232 --> 00:30:22,494
And where did that statement come from?

422
00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:27,390
Well, actually, that was the title of my second book.

423
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:34,590
And when we actually helped, we had a client, her name was Louise, still is Louise, in the
UK.

424
00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:36,130
was one of our UK clients.

425
00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:38,730
And they had a little company.

426
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:42,310
It was about 400,000 pounds when they contacted me.

427
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:45,070
And the previous year, that's what they'd made.

428
00:30:45,490 --> 00:30:47,190
the bank had cut.

429
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:50,890
This was back just after the recession in 2008.

430
00:30:50,890 --> 00:30:53,070
She contacted me in 2010.

431
00:30:53,146 --> 00:30:58,550
And the Barclays Bank had gone through with all their small businesses and cut everybody's
lines of credit in half.

432
00:30:58,651 --> 00:31:04,556
Regardless of your credit rating, things like that, they just had to protect their asset
base because they were still suffering through that recession.

433
00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:10,371
And so she oh contacted me and she was thinking, well, maybe we need to raise capital and
things like that.

434
00:31:10,371 --> 00:31:13,884
So we agreed to go over there and help her out.

435
00:31:13,884 --> 00:31:17,787
And she was thinking, well, I want to grow big.

436
00:31:17,787 --> 00:31:18,448
I want to do this.

437
00:31:18,448 --> 00:31:19,889
I want to do that and all that.

438
00:31:19,889 --> 00:31:21,422
But no.

439
00:31:21,422 --> 00:31:25,922
Again, productivity is a function of design and structure, not your good intent.

440
00:31:26,422 --> 00:31:31,502
And whether it's the physical structures or was the structures of behavior, it's a
function of design and structure.

441
00:31:31,502 --> 00:31:34,262
what we did was we actually supported her.

442
00:31:34,262 --> 00:31:39,262
She went from 400,000 to 2 million in the next three years.

443
00:31:39,262 --> 00:31:40,782
And that's when I wrote that book.

444
00:31:40,782 --> 00:31:50,738
And then in the next four years after that, she went to just over 7.3 million pounds,
which is about, what, $10 and a half, $11 million at the time, US dollars.

445
00:31:50,738 --> 00:31:58,229
And that's when she put a bull on it and sold it to another company whose net continued to
grow itself to 20 million, you know, a private equity firm on it.

446
00:31:58,229 --> 00:32:05,078
so the, what she discovered was there's a lot more to it than just having these big
thinking bots.

447
00:32:05,346 --> 00:32:08,149
So she had a really good outcome after she brought you in.

448
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:10,711
That's a big win and a big success.

449
00:32:10,852 --> 00:32:14,937
We all have wins, losses, positives and negatives.

450
00:32:14,937 --> 00:32:23,356
What did she do or what was she willing to do after you started working with her that some
others maybe haven't that didn't get her outcome?

451
00:32:24,362 --> 00:32:34,671
Um, one of the things that, that she accepted and adopted was the whole notion that if you
want something for yourself, you know what?

452
00:32:34,671 --> 00:32:38,574
Stop focusing on yourself, focus on how you get the other person away.

453
00:32:38,574 --> 00:32:49,002
And so we have a three, a three part sort of what we call the three uh core and constant
components of effective sales, but also of effective management of effective interactions

454
00:32:49,002 --> 00:32:50,343
with anyone else in life.

455
00:32:50,343 --> 00:32:54,030
And those are, uh, number one, take their perspective.

456
00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:57,773
Number two, clarify their gain, including their issues, their concerns and all that.

457
00:32:57,773 --> 00:32:59,334
Well, where do they see their gain?

458
00:32:59,334 --> 00:33:02,347
And then number three is build trust and confidence.

459
00:33:02,347 --> 00:33:05,840
So take their perspective, clarify their gain, build trust and confidence.

460
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:16,608
And what I found was that if, know, you can never influence anyone unless and until you
understand what's already influencing them.

461
00:33:16,929 --> 00:33:23,906
And so by stopping and actually learning about the other person first, and this is whether
you've got an employee, whether you've got a customer, whether you've got a supplier,

462
00:33:23,906 --> 00:33:32,671
You know nothing happens until you do that and the other half of that though is that
you'll never connect with anyone as long as you're busy judging them.

463
00:33:33,051 --> 00:33:43,717
So how do I park judgment and I really just listen to what's there you know and I put
myself in their shoes and say well I may not believe what they believe but the question is

464
00:33:44,097 --> 00:33:53,006
can I understand from their perspective what they're believing and as a result what's the
world they see that they're interacting with because

465
00:33:53,006 --> 00:33:59,948
One of the mistakes a lot of people make is they actually think there's one world rather
than eight billion iterations of it.

466
00:34:00,008 --> 00:34:06,650
I mean, we all see the world a little bit differently and we interact with what we see,
but then we don't understand when somebody else interacts differently.

467
00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:07,990
It's like, don't they understand?

468
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:09,931
They don't just don't understand life.

469
00:34:09,931 --> 00:34:10,311
That's it.

470
00:34:10,311 --> 00:34:12,152
Well, actually they understand it from their shoes.

471
00:34:12,152 --> 00:34:14,072
They just don't understand it from ours.

472
00:34:14,072 --> 00:34:20,908
So the big thing that she did was she just kept the focus on really listening and
understanding other people.

473
00:34:20,908 --> 00:34:26,832
That doesn't mean that she parked everything she wanted, but she included them in the
interaction.

474
00:34:26,832 --> 00:34:30,445
And as a result, her understanding of situations went much higher.

475
00:34:30,445 --> 00:34:35,108
She ended up winning eLearning Company of the Year uh in 2014.

476
00:34:35,108 --> 00:34:45,566
And it was just based on how focused she had her salespeople on what the clients actually
needed from their perspective and why it was important to them.

477
00:34:45,566 --> 00:34:48,838
We all assume that we know what our clients want.

478
00:34:49,176 --> 00:34:53,389
But it's different to get the nuances from them from their perspective.

479
00:34:53,389 --> 00:34:55,670
And you know, that sounds like it should be easy.

480
00:34:55,670 --> 00:35:00,394
And I guess it should be, except too often it's missed.

481
00:35:00,394 --> 00:35:09,720
And just by focusing on that internally with her own teams, externally with their clients,
with her suppliers, she actually, she did incredibly well.

482
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:18,754
And this is a woman, I got to tell you, this is a woman who came to me, you know, um at
age of 52 when she started, you know, so, so.

483
00:35:18,754 --> 00:35:25,299
We're not talking about, we're not talking about like a 26 year old person who's youthful
and has tons of energy.

484
00:35:25,299 --> 00:35:29,283
This is a woman who just, you know, her big goal to make a million pounds.

485
00:35:29,283 --> 00:35:31,444
Everybody has the goal of a million, right?

486
00:35:31,485 --> 00:35:37,950
And in fact, it was funny because at year two, she says, I really, really Michael, I
really think it's important to make a million pounds.

487
00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:39,601
I said, I'm sorry, you're not going to do that.

488
00:35:39,601 --> 00:35:40,572
And she says, well, what do mean?

489
00:35:40,572 --> 00:35:41,223
I'm not going to do it.

490
00:35:41,223 --> 00:35:43,494
I said, you're already 1.4.

491
00:35:43,914 --> 00:35:45,676
it's been a couple of months since we've checked, isn't it?

492
00:35:45,676 --> 00:35:46,677
Yeah, it's been a couple.

493
00:35:46,677 --> 00:35:48,076
Well, what do I do now?

494
00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:50,127
And then she actually had to shift her bowl of thinking.

495
00:35:50,127 --> 00:35:53,008
And she said, you know, I'm really enjoying this exploration.

496
00:35:53,008 --> 00:35:55,929
Why don't I just create a place where people grow?

497
00:35:55,929 --> 00:36:04,402
And that's literally how she grew the rest of it was that became her new commitment
because she'd already out, you know, she'd outlived the dream of a million.

498
00:36:04,402 --> 00:36:05,573
She already had it.

499
00:36:05,573 --> 00:36:08,454
So it was fascinating to watch, you know.

500
00:36:09,782 --> 00:36:11,833
Um, have a couple of categories.

501
00:36:11,833 --> 00:36:21,910
It's been a great conversation, but I want to do some quick hit reflection questions for
you on maybe there's some, some really good benefit and growth moments that, for all the

502
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:22,930
listeners.

503
00:36:23,151 --> 00:36:28,424
So one, what's a belief about leadership that you've changed your mind about?

504
00:36:29,762 --> 00:36:33,224
that leadership has anything to do with speaking.

505
00:36:34,125 --> 00:36:37,087
Effective leadership really is about listening.

506
00:36:37,467 --> 00:36:42,130
You know, the best leaders really understand their environment before they act.

507
00:36:42,311 --> 00:36:50,196
Now, once they understand their environment, they act, and know, and they do rally people
to a brighter future and all that, but they don't do it without listening first.

508
00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:53,228
So that was the thing I originally didn't realize.

509
00:36:55,220 --> 00:36:58,429
a that founders overvalue early on.

510
00:36:59,406 --> 00:37:00,347
for his vote.

511
00:37:01,838 --> 00:37:04,342
You know, there's this thing called the tofu leader.

512
00:37:04,945 --> 00:37:10,876
The kind of bland and you know, they don't stick out, but they get along with everyone and
they just create this value.

513
00:37:10,876 --> 00:37:12,198
uh

514
00:37:13,646 --> 00:37:16,273
tofu leader system.

515
00:37:16,273 --> 00:37:17,460
Every entrepreneur.

516
00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:23,660
know that's a big word, every, but a system, every entrepreneur resists, but eventually
needs.

517
00:37:24,526 --> 00:37:37,306
Well, I mean, if you're looking at physical systems, I'd say enough financial clarity so
that they can read the tea leaves on what's really going on in their business.

518
00:37:38,106 --> 00:37:39,706
Cause your numbers will tell you a story.

519
00:37:39,706 --> 00:37:44,486
just have to have, you have to have the ability to watch and look and read that story.

520
00:37:44,486 --> 00:37:46,486
And they eventually get there as they grow.

521
00:37:46,486 --> 00:37:48,870
But I tell you, everybody resists that.

522
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:52,242
Yeah, because it's important that what you got to do is you got to stay in business.

523
00:37:52,709 --> 00:37:54,174
That's your first job.

524
00:37:54,174 --> 00:37:56,682
That's what's business equivalent of survival.

525
00:37:56,682 --> 00:37:59,148
And it is survival, in fact, in the business.

526
00:38:00,174 --> 00:38:02,098
Alright, the last one of these quick hits.

527
00:38:02,420 --> 00:38:06,380
Biggest lie entrepreneurs tell themselves about growth.

528
00:38:06,924 --> 00:38:10,910
I can sell my way out of the overspending that's occurring in my company.

529
00:38:11,478 --> 00:38:17,123
What's one thing entrepreneurs should stop doing to have them scale faster?

530
00:38:17,123 --> 00:38:23,979
I know it's a negative connotation because we could say, what's something positive, but
what's one thing they should stop doing to scale faster?

531
00:38:23,979 --> 00:38:26,291
Because they don't need to reinvent anything else.

532
00:38:26,291 --> 00:38:30,194
Just stop doing this and you'll scale faster.

533
00:38:30,274 --> 00:38:33,315
Okay, so you said stop doing this and I'll scale faster.

534
00:38:33,315 --> 00:38:34,396
Here's what I would say.

535
00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:42,279
Stop doing the bigger you get, the more you're paid to think, the less you're paid to do
stop running around and stop working so hard.

536
00:38:42,279 --> 00:38:46,741
People usually work more too hard to actually achieve their numbers.

537
00:38:46,741 --> 00:38:49,042
If they slow down, they can see more.

538
00:38:49,042 --> 00:38:54,144
And as a result, you're in a situation where you can, you can get higher, far faster.

539
00:38:55,045 --> 00:38:57,746
So that'd be one, I have a different answer as well.

540
00:38:57,746 --> 00:38:58,786
Let's do.

541
00:39:00,086 --> 00:39:02,567
Stop thinking that growth is linear.

542
00:39:02,968 --> 00:39:05,489
Time uh is a tool.

543
00:39:05,969 --> 00:39:19,187
if I wanted to double or triple or even have a 10x of my business, if I have an impossibly
high goal and an impossibly close timeframe, um nothing's certain.

544
00:39:19,187 --> 00:39:29,012
So it's not like I have to do this, but I'm in a situation where all of a sudden, instead
of having a thousand different ways to get there, I probably only have two or three.

545
00:39:29,282 --> 00:39:36,147
And so what happens is it gets, it makes it easier for me to clear out the noise and focus
on the signal.

546
00:39:36,147 --> 00:39:43,632
So I'd say stop allowing for the noise and focus on the signal of the pathway that'll
actually get you what you want.

547
00:39:43,632 --> 00:39:53,158
And that's way easier to accomplish if I got a big goal and a short timeframe, because it
just necessitates that I take out the noise, because I only have time for the signal.

548
00:39:53,292 --> 00:39:54,663
Yeah.

549
00:39:54,663 --> 00:39:55,303
All right.

550
00:39:55,303 --> 00:40:05,927
The final one here to, um, to serve since, uh, the necessaries in the word of the podcast
to serve the brand and the idea on, on today about, the necessity of being entrepreneurs.

551
00:40:05,927 --> 00:40:08,208
named it that for, have the life I wanted.

552
00:40:08,208 --> 00:40:10,489
was necessary that I became an entrepreneur.

553
00:40:10,489 --> 00:40:18,352
Not everybody needs to, they can have different lives, but what does necessary leadership
actually look like in practice?

554
00:40:18,352 --> 00:40:20,553
You process the way you would.

555
00:40:20,553 --> 00:40:23,394
So whatever necessary leadership would be.

556
00:40:24,418 --> 00:40:26,645
What's it actually look like in practice?

557
00:40:28,226 --> 00:40:35,530
deciding what matters for you and then focusing on using the business as a conduit to get
that.

558
00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:39,292
Because the business is a tool, it can give you what you want.

559
00:40:39,292 --> 00:40:50,998
But if you want to make an impact, uh productive entrepreneurship is necessary for the, uh
frankly, for a strong society.

560
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:56,661
A business is the only place where value is actually created.

561
00:40:57,592 --> 00:41:01,715
You people will give part of their wealth to a charity that actually knows how to use it.

562
00:41:01,715 --> 00:41:09,192
The governments will take part of your wealth to make sure our roads are clean and you
know we've got the police forces and the teachers and all that stuff.

563
00:41:09,192 --> 00:41:13,876
But I to tell you in an entrepreneur it's the value exchange that literally creates value.

564
00:41:13,876 --> 00:41:16,278
It's the only place it really happens.

565
00:41:16,278 --> 00:41:24,104
So so entrepreneurship in and of itself is necessary to create and expand what's possible
for everyone.

566
00:41:24,305 --> 00:41:26,466
And I can use that as a tool.

567
00:41:26,670 --> 00:41:34,650
It doesn't matter what your goal is, it doesn't matter what kind of an impact you want to
make, whether it's to your family, whether it's to one corner of the community, just make

568
00:41:34,650 --> 00:41:35,770
sure you're making it.

569
00:41:35,770 --> 00:41:41,730
Use that tool to actually make a difference because it's so powerful to do that.

570
00:41:41,730 --> 00:41:44,870
That's part of why I get so excited about entrepreneurship.

571
00:41:44,994 --> 00:41:45,777
Hmm.

572
00:41:45,777 --> 00:41:46,679
So good.

573
00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:50,028
Michael Walsh, Vancouver, Canada.

574
00:41:50,028 --> 00:41:51,992
Thank you for giving us your time today.