#166 - William Spengler on Building a Scalable Recruiting Firm, Incentives, and Leading with Accountability

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That's how you win as a small company is having a clear, confident vision that big
companies just can't win on because they've got processes and they've had 30 years.

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You're going to do this job this way.

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That's how it's going to get done.

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Welcome back you all.

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Hey, today on the necessary entrepreneur, we're joined by none other than Will Spangler.

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He's a founder and principal of Frederick Fox.

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It's a high growth equity driven recruiting firm that's re-imagined what a staffing agency
can be.

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From top producer at big staffing houses to building his own firm with partner level
equity, proprietary tech, and a culture built on empowerment.

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Um, wills build a business that combines people first values with ruthless operational
executions.

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If you've ever wondered how to build a service business, especially one built on talent,
trust systems and scale.

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This episode will get you inside the trenches.

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Let's get into it.

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Man, I like that intro.

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appreciate it.

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Making it important.

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There's all, well, I Hey, you don't get on here these days.

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don't know how good the conversation will be, but you don't get on here anymore.

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If you're not, uh, if you're not important and haven't done things, it's, it's what I've
learned in business.

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Usually I'm not good at anything in the beginning, I stick with it.

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learned a lot of lessons, take a lot of L's and eventually become really capable.

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there were some words in this intro that I'm sure we pulled from, um, LinkedIn and all
your websites.

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Sure.

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Right.

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I loved where it said operational executions.

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man.

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love big words like that.

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Yeah, I appreciate the intro.

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I'm well, been staffing for 14 years.

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I was just young enough, just dumb enough to start this staffing company about six years
ago.

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We do have 56 recruiters.

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We have five people in the back office.

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The company should do about roughly 10 million in revenue.

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So small business.

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But there's been a, to your point, there's been a lot of lessons the last six years.

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Operational effectiveness could mean a lot of things.

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I think what's cool is we do develop in-house technology towards accounting and sales
operations.

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I think that's what some of that's touching on.

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And I can tell you more about the company if you're interested.

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Yeah.

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I I think at the end, I think what we're also intrigued by initially when we hear a story,
it's no different than you read a biography about somebody, one of the big hitters.

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It's like, why'd you do it?

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And so you're sitting here, uh, what's soon to be your late thirties.

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You're on the back half of your thirties.

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You're a guy who came up in the Midwest and you've traveled all over and now you're in
Florida.

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You've done a lot of the right things, but why was starting this business necessary?

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Why is this the right thing?

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Yeah.

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You know, um people talk about uh Frodo and Sam, and I think some entrepreneurs are Frodo,
where they're the visionary and they've got this idea that everybody chases and follows.

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I always identify more with Sam um in the sense that I was always Sam.

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I worked for a company called Team Us Solutions Group.

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I really liked what this business was doing.

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uh Became a partner in that company before I did this.

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uh I believed in their model.

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set up a shared service center and treated staffing more like a, they put a real estate
brokerage model on staffing and gave the opportunity for people to be independent, have

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their own LLC, make 80%.

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And then they handled the back office accounting and finance and insurance and all the
things that I thought were smoke and mirrors.

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I later learned were not smoke and mirrors.

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um And I was always, uh I identified as more like Sam then where I was like, following
this very visionary guy named Brian who had about $120 million business, give or take.

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I was a partner in the company, partner, but I didn't have any equity.

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And the reason I left, I was in a good position was I believed in the model, but I wanted
to, I was just young enough and dumb enough to say,

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I think this model would be perfect if partners had a true partnership opportunity.

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And I tried to bring that to him.

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He said, no, I don't blame him.

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Um, and I said, you know what?

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I'm going to spend something out.

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You guys are $120 million business.

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think I can be a $20 million business.

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Do a lot of what I like that you're doing here.

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Um, and start this company.

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Basically I hate.

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being called a copycat and I pay kudos to him.

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But I think what's different about us is the ability to have a real partnership position,
be paid for building teams, leading teams.

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Um, and I tried to make a more fair, fairly economic model for producers in our system.

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two years, first two years, it was just me.

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Um, and I was like, man, maybe this was a bad idea, you know, but fast forward, you know,

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We went from three to 10 people in the third year, then 10 to 20, 20 to 30.

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And then recently we went from, you know, in 2025, we went from 40 to 56 recruiters.

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It'll probably be 60 people recruiters by the end of the year.

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And it's been a journey.

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Hmm.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So you said that you thought back in the day you thought it was all smoke and mirrors, but
now you know it wasn't.

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What do you do with that?

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What do you do with that?

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Because so many people that find themselves being employees that maybe have this sense of
being dissatisfied think it's corporate propaganda and it's all smoke and mirrors.

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And what, what don't, when you're an employee and now the owner of the entrepreneur, what,
what don't, what didn't you know as an employee?

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Why'd you think it was smoke and mirrors?

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Did you just not see behind the curtain?

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Did you not have the operational perspective?

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Why is that?

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I was always in, I mean, I was an accountant for only a year after college, but then I
was, yeah, as a salesperson in the last 14 years, 15 years of my career.

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So I think as a salesperson, you think that, you know, that the business won't run if it
weren't for you.

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And, know, you do everything when you're a top producing salesperson and, uh, salespeople
have egos.

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I think that's part of what makes them successful.

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Um, so, you know, in my mind, it's, you know, there's that all revenue cures all else.

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I think that's bullshit now.

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um But I think there was a lack of awareness when I was an employee of, you know, I always
tell our business partners, there's a reason accountants have jobs.

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There's a reason there's HR professionals.

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There's a reason there's attorneys, right?

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Like I think salespeople often think that they rule the world and in reality, there's big
reason why these people have jobs and run an operation.

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Yeah.

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Um, so you said there was a misnomer that revenue cures all ills and you're like, that's a
misnomer.

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Um, can you go deeper on that?

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What you've learned around that idea?

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Yeah, I mean, you have to be...

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You know, and when you're a company, you have to have an LLC, you have to have insurance.

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Um, somebody has to be doing the accounting.

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Um, you have to understand your cost base fix versus variable.

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So you can throw revenue all day long, but if your variable costs are out of control, you
know, you might be making, you know, you might be more revenue, but losing more money or

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you grow too fast, your cash can slip away from you.

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So revenue cures all ills.

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I mean, to a certain extent, it depends on the stage of development.

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Yes, it's not untrue, but um once you become a little bit more sophisticated, there's just
so much more than just revenue.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Cashflow is important though, isn't it?

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Because what you can do, as long as the cash keeps on flowing, you can overcome a lot of
mistakes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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think, I think it's tough because like, you have to look at your receivable terms and if
you're growing really fast and your expenses are growing, your expenses hit every single

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month, but your, your cash in might not.

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Right.

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And if you're growing really fast, you're sucking cash out.

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If you're not collecting on time.

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ah I ran into that issue.

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I ran into.

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uh

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issues around insurance, lot of like, I realized I had to actually get a lot of attorneys
to look at every single contract, you know.

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I hate, steal this from somebody who is like on the legal side of things.

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There's always, I call it where's Waldo with attorneys.

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They always got something in there.

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There's a landmine in there somewhere.

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So I know that's a whole separate tangent, but you know,

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You don't really learn how to run a business till you actually run a business.

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And I think, you know, you get better at it every year, but there's always something that
comes up and it's like, all right, I'm fixing this for next year.

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I'm fixing this for next year.

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Um, you know, I think you only learn by falling on your face.

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Well, I tell you what, think we're for some reason in this society, which it's evolving
and who knows where it's going to land.

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We're taught that traditional education teaches us.

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Hahaha

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I don't know what to say.

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Like on one hand, I know I'm a constant learner.

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So the term education is very important to me, but my education is not linear in degrees
of semesters in just you sit down and do this four year thing.

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And when you're done with it, you have all the brilliance and intelligence around it.

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I was speaking to somebody the other day and I said, they should take most of these four
year degrees and it should be shrunk to about 12 months.

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The actual amount that I learned that I took away that was applicable in life, um,
couldn't have learned it in 12 months or less.

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Yeah.

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I always say I majored in being able to pop a beer can, you know, um but joking aside, I
went to business school at Ohio State and they teach you large corporate accounting and

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finance.

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um You know, you do a four year degree, work tail off.

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uh They teach you how to value $500 million portfolios and these types of ratios and that
types of ratio.

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And then you get out.

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The real world smacks you in the face and it's like, yeah, but I know how to compute black
skulls and you get in the real world and it's like, no one gives a shit, man.

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Like, um, none of that knowledge applies here.

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You know, give you an example.

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I was really in, I was, I was a model.

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I was like a financial modeler.

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I used to love to study how to value companies.

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I was like competitive about it.

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And then I got a job in college working for a private equity group and I get there and I'm
like, I can't wait to use all my.

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formulas and all this and then I got there and I the top guy was multi-millionaire and I
said, okay I valued this company five different ways to use these formulas and he's like

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He said to me he's like just go ahead and throw that all away He's like the way I value
companies is one ratio Pete price earnings ratio and then I study their management team

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and all I really care about is looking at their management team and it's an intangible
decision and so

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I don't want to undervalue school.

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think learning the basics of accounting, finance, marketing, business is important, but
school doesn't teach you how to file an LLC, do state taxes, stay in compliance.

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You learn how to stay in compliance when you get something in the mail from California
that says you owe 150 grand and then you figure it out.

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You're right.

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Yeah.

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I find myself as a, as an entrepreneur now so often, um, people will bring me what they
perceive are big problems.

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And I do, I do the same thing with big problems.

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I do a small problems.

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Like what's the problem.

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Alright.

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How do we solve it?

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Anything else around the emotions of it or the feelings about it or whatever, it's just
irrelevant now, but you have to learn that.

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And.

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Right.

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I was talking about this was something is like four one ones versus nine one ones and what
used to be a nine one one that you'd be like, oh my God, this is disaster.

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When you, after you've been in business for a while, you're like, okay, this is more like
a four one one.

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This used to be, you know, because you've just run into bigger and bigger problems that
you, what, at nine one one, comes out, was like, oof, if that's it, like, okay, we're

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good.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And mean, and really nine one one is like supposed to be, if we're talking about medical
analogies, it's like, this is life or death.

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mean, a lot of people use it in this world that probably shouldn't and don't need to.

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But if I, if I look back and think about all my businesses, even if it's life and death in
the business, emotions and feelings shouldn't be elevated.

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You should elevate just the severity of the decision or the problem, but you should take
the same balanced control approach to the thing.

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Yeah.

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I'm sure you got better at it over time.

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That's something I, I'm something that I'm working on still somewhere I'm trying to
develop, you know, in my later, later thirties, but, um, you know, step away from it for a

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day if I have to, but if I feel that emotional buildup, I know that I need to not respond
for a second and kind of cool down, you know,

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Yeah.

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think I'm probably just, this is probably, I'm in this good segment, probably just in the
last two or three years.

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And it's not just about being 46 and age.

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It's about just massive experience and dealing with massive problems.

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And I think you reflect and you're like, all right, we worked everything out.

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there's, there's still nothing that hasn't been figure out.

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Nothing.

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haha

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and taking that approach because whatever the outcome is going to be, it's going to be the
outcome.

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Right?

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Get to work, do our best.

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um what if you, you know, starting your firm in 2019, recruiting, I've never used a
personally, a recruiting firm to recruit employee, but I do know we're just, a different

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type of business.

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Not to say that C-suite and all that, but I've developed these people internally.

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This can be a good conversation.

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um But I do know that the strength of my company is the bench strength of my employees.

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And it's all about people.

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Right.

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If I have the skills to translate in a simple way, what our goals are and what the vision
is, and we go out and execute on it, um, we should accomplish what the business plan says

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we should.

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And if you get really good quality people to buy in to the idea and the vision that we're
trying to execute with good attitudes that have some resilience, have some grit, not all

213
00:15:20,417 --> 00:15:21,826
the way, don't have to be the entrepreneur.

214
00:15:21,826 --> 00:15:25,520
We're going to have a good outcome, but it seems like this is a massive struggle.

215
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,526
Now is for companies to develop internal talent and therefore.

216
00:15:29,526 --> 00:15:31,171
is your business, is huge.

217
00:15:31,171 --> 00:15:32,854
Your industry is enormous.

218
00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:36,447
Yeah, it's it's a multi billion dollar industry.

219
00:15:36,447 --> 00:15:41,650
um I always say people are your number one asset and I think you nailed it.

220
00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:48,354
It sounds like you're a natural at crafting a vision and being confident and you probably
have a good roadmap.

221
00:15:48,354 --> 00:15:53,386
uh Sounds like you're probably pretty good at dealing with people and keeping a pipeline
of people.

222
00:15:53,386 --> 00:15:55,798
So you've never had to use a recruiting firm.

223
00:15:55,798 --> 00:15:56,664
Well,

224
00:15:56,664 --> 00:16:03,487
think there's been times when we have had a lack of depth and I've thought about it, but
this is, think we can help a lot of entrepreneurs that are going from the small to mid

225
00:16:03,487 --> 00:16:04,138
size.

226
00:16:04,138 --> 00:16:11,647
If they look around and they don't have someone that has the current ability or the
current talents, the current mindset or experience, this is a good conversation.

227
00:16:11,647 --> 00:16:13,852
There's a lot of people that aren't exposed to your world.

228
00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:15,230
Yeah.

229
00:16:15,431 --> 00:16:24,594
Look, I think a small company, if you're under 15 million in revenue, um people try to
avoid paying a recruiting fee like the plague and I don't blame them.

230
00:16:24,595 --> 00:16:33,879
But I think that there are once a company's 20 million to let's say 500 million, that's
probably our sweet spot ah to find customers.

231
00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:40,102
We call that retail business um where there's actually budget towards staffing and outside
agencies.

232
00:16:40,102 --> 00:16:41,174
And then of course,

233
00:16:41,174 --> 00:16:43,396
anything over a billion is typically enterprise.

234
00:16:43,396 --> 00:16:45,818
That's usually baked in for that.

235
00:16:45,818 --> 00:16:49,321
use a lot of external recruiting agencies like ours.

236
00:16:49,321 --> 00:16:54,325
The difficulty with that is all the red tape and working up the supplier list.

237
00:16:54,365 --> 00:17:01,401
But ah I think there are a real opportunity for us is, you know, we're like attorneys.

238
00:17:01,401 --> 00:17:03,843
Nobody wants to pay us and I don't blame them.

239
00:17:03,843 --> 00:17:07,556
But like, let's say you're a $50 million company and your controller walks out.

240
00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:09,157
ah

241
00:17:09,268 --> 00:17:20,586
You have a situation where you have a speed to hire and equality or equality to hire need
and maybe you don't have somebody immediately available and I get it.

242
00:17:20,586 --> 00:17:23,038
You don't want to pay a recruiting fee.

243
00:17:23,038 --> 00:17:25,680
but you look at that and you're like, look, I've got to make AP.

244
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,231
I've got to make AR.

245
00:17:27,231 --> 00:17:28,662
I've got to get payroll out.

246
00:17:28,662 --> 00:17:34,536
Like I need to fill this job and I need to fill it with a quality person yesterday.

247
00:17:34,637 --> 00:17:36,526
And, um, I think that's what.

248
00:17:36,526 --> 00:17:39,108
creates the market for our services.

249
00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:46,237
And, you know, um that's where we try to be the best at.

250
00:17:46,237 --> 00:17:51,262
We typically do accounting and finance and sales roles is our number two vertical.

251
00:17:51,262 --> 00:17:54,545
Our third is technology like software development data.

252
00:17:54,545 --> 00:17:59,350
uh And yeah, that's us.

253
00:17:59,788 --> 00:18:05,643
What's how are you, how do you bridge this divide between talent and culture fix?

254
00:18:05,643 --> 00:18:06,944
It's all our culture fit.

255
00:18:06,944 --> 00:18:15,051
It's almost like when somebody is developing a product, what's the product market fit or
to make sure the product that the, that the marketplace wants the product.

256
00:18:15,051 --> 00:18:22,418
How do you merge these two culture in this term has become so relevant in the conversation
over the past decade.

257
00:18:22,418 --> 00:18:23,869
What do you, what do you do with those?

258
00:18:23,869 --> 00:18:27,872
Because I'm assuming it's pretty easy to solve for the talent piece.

259
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:29,893
You know that, right?

260
00:18:29,893 --> 00:18:32,077
You look at a resume, what's their experience?

261
00:18:32,077 --> 00:18:32,678
You do what you do.

262
00:18:32,678 --> 00:18:33,921
You can vet that easy.

263
00:18:33,921 --> 00:18:36,736
How do you vet the environment, the culture piece?

264
00:18:38,338 --> 00:18:39,219
Great question.

265
00:18:39,219 --> 00:18:42,001
um And you're correct.

266
00:18:42,001 --> 00:18:52,990
think a lot of times, like if it's Cincinnati, and I don't know your exact industry that
your business does, but all recruiters are doing are um figuring out who all your

267
00:18:52,990 --> 00:19:03,448
competitors are, or relevant industries at the similar stage of development to you guys,
to get somebody from there that comes from a similar complexity within the...

268
00:19:03,448 --> 00:19:08,841
the Christmas list you give us, like you might want them to be an MBA, CPA, seven plus
years of experience.

269
00:19:08,841 --> 00:19:14,484
We sort of do research and then we call, we try to attract them to your company.

270
00:19:14,544 --> 00:19:21,198
But I think it starts with, you and I were gonna do a call, it would be understanding why
is the position open?

271
00:19:21,198 --> 00:19:29,672
the person in the role last time around, what was it about this individual that didn't fit
into your culture?

272
00:19:29,672 --> 00:19:31,533
How would you describe your culture?

273
00:19:31,533 --> 00:19:33,094
um

274
00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:38,387
what are you looking for ideally culture fit wise out of the next person.

275
00:19:38,387 --> 00:19:42,238
And then we try to gauge interview questions towards that when we go to market.

276
00:19:42,238 --> 00:19:45,909
So we hit all the, you know, similar complexities, similar industry.

277
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:47,390
We can do all that to your point.

278
00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:49,010
That's not the hard part.

279
00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:54,946
For some people that's hard because of the lack of business understanding, but uh that is
attainable.

280
00:19:54,946 --> 00:19:56,392
A culture fit.

281
00:19:57,433 --> 00:20:02,870
I hate to say that we do our best to guide the questions towards the intake with the
customer.

282
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:05,012
It's a sort of an intuitive feel at times.

283
00:20:05,012 --> 00:20:08,595
So maybe AI won't replace us too quickly.

284
00:20:08,595 --> 00:20:17,433
But I think oftentimes we rely on the customer to help us with the inter, you know, it's
ultimately the customer that's making the decision and they're interviewing six or seven

285
00:20:17,433 --> 00:20:18,363
people through us.

286
00:20:18,363 --> 00:20:25,689
ah And so we do lean on the client to help us with the culture at the end of the day.

287
00:20:26,626 --> 00:20:26,966
Yeah.

288
00:20:26,966 --> 00:20:32,249
Um, this is kind of like anti helping you, but this might help.

289
00:20:32,249 --> 00:20:39,893
let's say we're to talk to people under 20 million and they might just not be there yet or
don't think they have the revenue line to do it.

290
00:20:39,893 --> 00:20:42,895
So if someone's a small business owner could be your future customer.

291
00:20:42,895 --> 00:20:48,938
don't know how you develop and foment relationships, but if someone's a small business
owner struggling to build a great team.

292
00:20:49,550 --> 00:20:50,460
Yeah.

293
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:55,602
What's some tactical moves that they should, they should make like tomorrow that you've
learned.

294
00:20:55,602 --> 00:20:58,553
Like what should, if they're having a tough time attracting good talent.

295
00:20:58,553 --> 00:21:02,094
Cause you talk to the talent piece too, cause you're not just recruiting them.

296
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:05,826
They're probably wanting, they have a lot, like who's the business you're recruiting for,
right?

297
00:21:05,826 --> 00:21:07,616
They want to know all sorts of these things.

298
00:21:07,616 --> 00:21:13,158
So what are some of these small businesses could do like tomorrow to start attracting
great talent.

299
00:21:15,084 --> 00:21:28,740
This might sound a little wooey, but I'll, I'll just say it is that I think as a business
owner, you need to spend some time or kind of milk in what, who you are, what makes you

300
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:31,701
different and crafting your vision.

301
00:21:32,541 --> 00:21:38,404
and I think sometimes people have imposter syndrome when it comes to hiring or maybe they
have perfectionism.

302
00:21:38,404 --> 00:21:39,644
No one can do it as good as me.

303
00:21:39,644 --> 00:21:44,686
It's easier if I just do everything and like, I'm not gonna, I can't delegate there's

304
00:21:44,686 --> 00:21:46,447
depends on the person why they're not hiring.

305
00:21:46,447 --> 00:21:58,905
uh But I think if you spend time in saying getting to your clear vision and roadmap of
where you're to be in five years, I think it really comes down to uh getting that clear

306
00:21:58,905 --> 00:22:05,229
vision and being able to express that clearly to people interested in your company and
confidently.

307
00:22:05,229 --> 00:22:11,010
And I think when it comes to A players, you've got to be confident about your vision.

308
00:22:11,010 --> 00:22:12,121
You know, here's where I'm at.

309
00:22:12,121 --> 00:22:13,091
Here's me.

310
00:22:13,091 --> 00:22:13,902
Here's where I'm at.

311
00:22:13,902 --> 00:22:15,273
Here's where I'm going.

312
00:22:15,273 --> 00:22:16,973
Here's what I can offer.

313
00:22:16,994 --> 00:22:19,655
Here's some upside for joining my smaller company.

314
00:22:19,655 --> 00:22:26,360
Um, this is what I'm trying to do and here's why here's the mission and it's on them to
join.

315
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:30,903
Don't, you know, just cause 10 people don't, don't like your Kool-Aid.

316
00:22:30,903 --> 00:22:35,996
Don't, you know, keep taking it to market cause there's going to be someone that sees the
value eventually.

317
00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:36,736
So.

318
00:22:36,758 --> 00:22:41,132
I think sometimes people shy away from hiring or they feel insecure about where they are
as a company.

319
00:22:41,132 --> 00:22:45,374
I'd say just own it and own where you're going and take it to market.

320
00:22:46,338 --> 00:22:47,384
You said own it.

321
00:22:47,384 --> 00:22:47,776
Hmm.

322
00:22:47,776 --> 00:22:49,683
That sounds like accountability.

323
00:22:50,158 --> 00:22:51,062
Yeah.

324
00:22:52,984 --> 00:22:56,524
What do we do with that word in 2001 into 2026?

325
00:22:56,524 --> 00:23:00,914
Cause I believe that accountability will unlock everything you want if people truly have
it.

326
00:23:01,538 --> 00:23:02,358
Yeah.

327
00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:08,841
I, it's one of our core values and you hit on solutions orientation is one of ours too.

328
00:23:08,841 --> 00:23:10,078
There's always a problem.

329
00:23:10,078 --> 00:23:12,242
There's always a reason our company sucks.

330
00:23:12,282 --> 00:23:14,483
And I would say there's no point in complaining about it.

331
00:23:14,483 --> 00:23:18,765
Let's figure out how to solve it and let's solve the things in priority.

332
00:23:18,765 --> 00:23:21,766
You know, being complaining is counterproductive.

333
00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:22,817
Accountability.

334
00:23:22,817 --> 00:23:24,818
I don't know why people don't have that anymore.

335
00:23:24,818 --> 00:23:26,368
I don't, I don't get it.

336
00:23:26,368 --> 00:23:31,114
I don't know if it's Midwest values, but I was always raised to be

337
00:23:31,114 --> 00:23:33,042
you know, when it's work, it's work.

338
00:23:33,042 --> 00:23:37,964
And I don't understand people without a work ethic, but that's probably why I own a
company.

339
00:23:37,964 --> 00:23:38,276
Yep.

340
00:23:38,276 --> 00:23:41,825
But Will, you don't have any empathy for how I feel.

341
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:57,785
I think I'm a pretty empathetic person and understanding, but I think you you ever have
the employee that and there's always a problem in their personal life versus their dog

342
00:23:57,785 --> 00:23:59,877
then it's their I run or then

343
00:24:00,098 --> 00:24:02,579
When I, when I see those, I run.

344
00:24:02,579 --> 00:24:14,306
uh What I've learned is I don't know if it's this definitive, but it's been said many
times before for the most part, the way somebody does one thing is the way they do

345
00:24:14,306 --> 00:24:15,166
everything.

346
00:24:17,292 --> 00:24:22,998
And if their personal life is a disaster, their work life for the most part is going to be
a disaster.

347
00:24:23,863 --> 00:24:26,558
their spiritual life, it's probably all in the same place, right?

348
00:24:26,558 --> 00:24:27,018
is.

349
00:24:27,018 --> 00:24:27,618
Yeah.

350
00:24:27,618 --> 00:24:30,398
Because I haven't really seen a human.

351
00:24:30,498 --> 00:24:42,918
can compartmentalize to an extent when we're having bad days, but how, whatever somebody's
operating system is, they don't all of a sudden flip on the brand new OS that was just

352
00:24:42,918 --> 00:24:50,738
updated to work at work and then flip on like a windows eight from 15 years ago when they
go home.

353
00:24:50,738 --> 00:24:52,248
It doesn't work that way.

354
00:24:52,248 --> 00:25:00,566
They're using the same operate, they're, processing problems and what their response is
and their emotional levels that they're, they're utilizing that all the time.

355
00:25:00,566 --> 00:25:07,863
And so, um, yeah, I think more and more I'm helping people change their life, but, I know
they're the one it's on them.

356
00:25:07,863 --> 00:25:09,254
They're responsible.

357
00:25:10,818 --> 00:25:20,582
think the way I can catch those people is I call it the victim versus the Victor mindset
that I always say the victim is controlled by their environment.

358
00:25:20,582 --> 00:25:23,804
Where as the Victor impacts their environment.

359
00:25:23,804 --> 00:25:32,147
like he start hearing people saying, you know, it was because my boss was because our
product was not the right fit.

360
00:25:32,147 --> 00:25:37,449
know, two or three stories of previous things and it's always everybody but them was the
problem.

361
00:25:37,449 --> 00:25:39,270
um

362
00:25:39,374 --> 00:25:43,154
versus you interview someone and you say, you know what, I failed.

363
00:25:43,154 --> 00:25:45,454
I like people that admit that they failed.

364
00:25:45,754 --> 00:25:48,634
know, because they're at least taking accountability for it, right?

365
00:25:48,634 --> 00:25:51,994
And that's, and you can move forward on that.

366
00:25:51,994 --> 00:25:54,174
Like I'd almost rather have somebody that's failed.

367
00:25:55,214 --> 00:26:01,799
I know if we learn most through failure, if we've adopted that, then why are we not
placing value on recruiting those folks?

368
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:02,840
Right.

369
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,632
That they, that at least they failed there.

370
00:26:04,632 --> 00:26:05,502
How can we grow from it?

371
00:26:05,502 --> 00:26:05,963
Yeah.

372
00:26:05,963 --> 00:26:14,440
So often what I'm doing now with people when they're blaming a situation or an environment
or another person, I'm listening and I'm saying, okay, maybe.

373
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,111
Yeah.

374
00:26:16,111 --> 00:26:16,802
I'm not going to argue.

375
00:26:16,802 --> 00:26:17,692
Maybe.

376
00:26:18,533 --> 00:26:18,853
Yeah.

377
00:26:18,853 --> 00:26:19,314
Now what?

378
00:26:19,314 --> 00:26:20,274
Now what?

379
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:22,140
Right?

380
00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:23,393
We gonna, we gonna live in it?

381
00:26:23,393 --> 00:26:24,675
Is that gonna be your outcome?

382
00:26:24,675 --> 00:26:30,405
Are we gonna, are we gonna take a response to some things or we take accountability, we
take responsibility to control what we can control.

383
00:26:30,405 --> 00:26:33,910
I mean, this is, this has been written before me and you were even humans.

384
00:26:36,215 --> 00:26:46,851
Yeah, I think this is on this this vein but um Do you know a lot of people it's like they
want to start a business, but then they're like hey I don't I don't have any money or

385
00:26:46,851 --> 00:26:51,593
there's five different reasons why you wouldn't do it right or I have to have benefits,
right?

386
00:26:51,593 --> 00:26:52,784
I have to have benefits.

387
00:26:52,784 --> 00:27:01,348
Otherwise, I'd start a business I Like to stay in the mindset of okay, what would need to
be true in order to be there?

388
00:27:01,348 --> 00:27:03,501
um I like to like it.

389
00:27:03,501 --> 00:27:04,622
Okay, we want to be a

390
00:27:04,622 --> 00:27:07,324
$30 million business, we're a $10 million business.

391
00:27:07,324 --> 00:27:13,449
Instead of saying that's impossible, I like to say what would need to be true and what
would need to be in place to get there.

392
00:27:13,449 --> 00:27:16,111
Let's start knocking one thing out at a time.

393
00:27:16,252 --> 00:27:19,164
I'm not saying I'm the world's best entrepreneur.

394
00:27:19,164 --> 00:27:20,135
I'm new to it.

395
00:27:20,135 --> 00:27:24,198
I'm six years in, but that's the mindset I try to stay in.

396
00:27:24,198 --> 00:27:29,442
um Continuous improvement, um building technology.

397
00:27:29,963 --> 00:27:34,080
If we were 30 million, we had this amount of transactions, we had this much.

398
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:46,506
what would I need to have, what would the back office need to look like, um and just start
knocking it out one at end of time um to stay on a North Star vision and path.

399
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:58,175
So when you left your high society job, your gig, you were a successful recruiter and you
said, I think I can leave this $120 million business and start one and turn it into 20

400
00:27:58,175 --> 00:27:59,015
million.

401
00:27:59,015 --> 00:28:00,936
So you're at 10 million right now.

402
00:28:00,936 --> 00:28:05,377
What would need to be true for your business to be 20 million?

403
00:28:05,478 --> 00:28:06,698
Sooner later.

404
00:28:07,862 --> 00:28:09,663
I I underestimated accounting.

405
00:28:09,663 --> 00:28:11,724
I underestimated learning and development.

406
00:28:11,724 --> 00:28:16,365
ah I really underestimated my people leadership skills.

407
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:21,908
um You know, so I'm constantly trying to become a better people leader.

408
00:28:21,908 --> 00:28:35,193
um I didn't, you know, so I think what we need to be true is we need to operate better as
a team, work together as better as a team.

409
00:28:35,213 --> 00:28:37,294
We need true leaders to rise.

410
00:28:37,302 --> 00:28:42,807
Um, we will have to, you know, to try to grow more revenue, we need more repeat customers.

411
00:28:42,807 --> 00:28:47,150
Um, and then we're going to need more headcount to get there as well.

412
00:28:47,150 --> 00:28:53,075
Um, but there's an opportunity for more revenue within our head count by operating better.

413
00:28:54,737 --> 00:29:04,845
you know, a lot of different answers to your question, but I think the one thing I'm,
things I drastically underestimated was leadership was learning and development training

414
00:29:05,106 --> 00:29:05,926
and

415
00:29:06,742 --> 00:29:07,786
Leadership.

416
00:29:09,506 --> 00:29:13,616
How did you go down this path of you being self-aware that you needed it?

417
00:29:13,919 --> 00:29:15,371
How'd you come to this?

418
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:23,050
I don't know.

419
00:29:24,512 --> 00:29:29,355
I think I've always been self-aware, um, just and being analytical by nature.

420
00:29:29,355 --> 00:29:35,119
So I'm willing to look in the mirror all the time, probably overly look in the mirror,
probably overly tough on myself.

421
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:36,560
I just have that personality.

422
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,223
Um, but what you were talking about earlier is like there's emotional responses.

423
00:29:41,223 --> 00:29:42,984
Those kill you as a leader.

424
00:29:42,984 --> 00:29:46,006
And you know, I haven't, I don't have the perfect track record.

425
00:29:46,006 --> 00:29:51,960
like, m you know, you study people that are running a hundred, 150 million

426
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,095
dollar companies, they're pretty smooth, calm and collected.

427
00:29:55,095 --> 00:29:57,860
They're able to hide their egos pretty well.

428
00:29:57,860 --> 00:30:01,286
So I finally was like, you know, I need to level up.

429
00:30:01,286 --> 00:30:04,530
I'm not saying that I have yet, but I'm working on it.

430
00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:04,950
Yeah.

431
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:15,283
Um, when I hear folks talk like that, employees at companies, entrepreneurs, it's like the
first step, you know, when people have, usually have people around us that had some sort

432
00:30:15,283 --> 00:30:16,713
of an addiction problem.

433
00:30:16,713 --> 00:30:20,633
And one of the biggest things that you hear is what do they first need to say?

434
00:30:20,633 --> 00:30:23,215
They knew acknowledge that they have the addiction.

435
00:30:23,575 --> 00:30:24,075
Right.

436
00:30:24,075 --> 00:30:32,157
And so I think it's the same thing with all the shortcomings that when we were employees
and now we're entrepreneurs, the only way you can solve the thing is if you truly own,

437
00:30:32,157 --> 00:30:34,614
like this is a problem and.

438
00:30:34,614 --> 00:30:36,047
I need to be able to fix this.

439
00:30:36,047 --> 00:30:37,159
What would need to be true?

440
00:30:37,159 --> 00:30:37,410
Right.

441
00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:39,082
That leads back to your question.

442
00:30:39,668 --> 00:30:41,600
I mean, the buck stops with you, right?

443
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:49,556
ah So if you're sitting there blaming all your employees, you you're at the table, you're
the head of the table.

444
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:51,008
It's on you.

445
00:30:51,008 --> 00:30:52,769
You're the one that brought those employees in.

446
00:30:52,769 --> 00:30:55,311
You're the one that's leading the company.

447
00:30:55,311 --> 00:30:58,174
So instead of blaming other people, you're equally to blame.

448
00:30:58,174 --> 00:30:59,304
It's your fault.

449
00:31:00,236 --> 00:31:00,546
Yeah.

450
00:31:00,546 --> 00:31:06,362
Um, so you're out here working with, I'm sure some private equity level, mid market
companies.

451
00:31:06,362 --> 00:31:07,672
think you guys do.

452
00:31:08,614 --> 00:31:14,899
what are some, what are some unique demands and patterns you're seeing in hiring now?

453
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,361
Is it the same as 2019?

454
00:31:16,361 --> 00:31:19,284
Is it the same when you were in the business a decade ago?

455
00:31:19,284 --> 00:31:20,295
What are some of these patterns?

456
00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:22,076
What's what's going on now?

457
00:31:24,046 --> 00:31:28,608
em It's a broad question.

458
00:31:29,446 --> 00:31:43,264
I think with private equity in particular, there's a lot of desire to get a really good
CFO and financial planner into these 20, 30, 40, $50 million businesses.

459
00:31:43,264 --> 00:31:47,656
think that's their main pain point is getting a really good CFO and controller.

460
00:31:47,656 --> 00:31:53,728
um And then they'll put the spend towards sales and marketing and expanding into markets.

461
00:31:53,858 --> 00:32:06,248
Um, but there's a big trend in private equity I see to, to get really solid backbone
accounting and finance, understanding where cashflow position, dendal hyper grow.

462
00:32:07,650 --> 00:32:10,074
how is private equity different from 10 years ago?

463
00:32:10,074 --> 00:32:13,314
I think 10 years ago was all about tech and product businesses.

464
00:32:13,314 --> 00:32:21,861
And, um, I think now private equity is from what I've seen been going more into heavy
assets or commercial real estate.

465
00:32:21,861 --> 00:32:23,062
Um,

466
00:32:23,062 --> 00:32:28,184
you know, we're, of course, they're still going into SAS.

467
00:32:28,444 --> 00:32:37,647
I don't want to say they're not, but I think that there's a trend now to get into more
tangible physical assets or energy or oil or renewables.

468
00:32:37,968 --> 00:32:44,230
I think people are not chasing the intangible future value as much as before.

469
00:32:45,486 --> 00:32:49,526
And the bigger these firms get, the bigger hits they need to have too.

470
00:32:49,986 --> 00:32:50,726
Right?

471
00:32:50,766 --> 00:32:50,906
Yeah.

472
00:32:50,906 --> 00:32:57,574
They need, they need a way, I need a larger cap thing to invest in because that's going to
be the opportunity cost of their money and their time.

473
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,031
Yeah, I know they're looking into AI.

474
00:33:02,031 --> 00:33:15,637
saw something, you know, I wasn't in business in the dot com, but I thought this was funny
was, um, I had the cocoa that, uh, the, AI is a lot like when the internet first came out.

475
00:33:16,418 --> 00:33:21,920
and it's this, it's, it's essentially the same thing, but the investors haven't gotten any
smarter from it.

476
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,822
It's like, everybody's chasing this huge future of AI and a lot of that's kind of.

477
00:33:27,234 --> 00:33:30,118
And I hate to be anti-AI, but I think it's a ball.

478
00:33:30,466 --> 00:33:31,207
Yeah.

479
00:33:31,207 --> 00:33:32,028
Yeah.

480
00:33:32,028 --> 00:33:32,308
Yeah.

481
00:33:32,308 --> 00:33:34,320
I've never seen a place as humans.

482
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,994
Our human nature is we just have FOMO about everything.

483
00:33:39,706 --> 00:33:45,110
Like all of us, think by default we do and you have to fight that to really take a step
back and say, wait a minute.

484
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:48,092
Does this align what I've this with what I've learned?

485
00:33:48,092 --> 00:33:51,455
Does this align with the linear focus I need to have for my business?

486
00:33:51,455 --> 00:33:56,437
We get distracted and, and get the wool pulled over real easy and it's our fault.

487
00:33:57,726 --> 00:34:02,432
Looking for some big multiple incentives, just going in on your business and operating and
running a better business.

488
00:34:03,150 --> 00:34:05,770
Yeah, just exactly.

489
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:07,890
I, and I think they're getting smarter now.

490
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:17,270
Like they want to see that a company's actually producing real margin and net income and
that that's actually growing and that the customers are actually growing.

491
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:23,250
think, you know, back in 2018, 2019, 2020, it's certainly during COVID.

492
00:34:23,250 --> 00:34:28,130
It was like, were just, they're just tossing money at these, these SaaS businesses.

493
00:34:28,130 --> 00:34:32,600
And I think it was late 2022 and Silicon Valley bank went down.

494
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,624
where there's like this huge correction of, okay, we've got to be responsible with the
money that we're raising.

495
00:34:37,624 --> 00:34:41,674
We've got to go after things that we know are actually producing value.

496
00:34:43,468 --> 00:34:50,806
What's, um, when you started your firm, you know, as we do some digging and find out about
all these people that we're going to talk to, it's like this will guy let's dig in.

497
00:34:50,806 --> 00:34:58,934
shows up in the Ohio state poll, but, um, yeah, no, think, um, thinking about.

498
00:35:01,012 --> 00:35:03,785
You buy into this work hard play hard, I think.

499
00:35:03,785 --> 00:35:04,974
I think that's important to you.

500
00:35:04,974 --> 00:35:07,174
How do you know about the play art?

501
00:35:07,954 --> 00:35:10,134
You just gotta vibe.

502
00:35:10,479 --> 00:35:11,301
It's our job.

503
00:35:11,301 --> 00:35:15,093
um What's that mean in the recruiting environment in your world?

504
00:35:15,093 --> 00:35:17,278
What does work hard play hard?

505
00:35:20,078 --> 00:35:25,818
I don't know how hard I play anymore because I have an eight, six and a two year old, but
yes, you are picking up correct.

506
00:35:25,818 --> 00:35:27,978
I used to play very hard work in my twenties.

507
00:35:27,978 --> 00:35:30,158
I was making a lot of money as a salesperson.

508
00:35:30,158 --> 00:35:31,318
I worked for a company.

509
00:35:31,318 --> 00:35:34,098
You know, I used to live and die by work hard, play hard.

510
00:35:34,098 --> 00:35:37,758
Now it's just work hard and work harder when I get home.

511
00:35:38,038 --> 00:35:41,578
But it depends.

512
00:35:41,578 --> 00:35:44,038
Recruiting any sales job can.

513
00:35:45,322 --> 00:35:46,933
Impact your personal life massively.

514
00:35:46,933 --> 00:35:49,285
You're at customers call on at seven, eight o'clock at night.

515
00:35:49,285 --> 00:35:50,866
It's hard as a recruiter.

516
00:35:50,866 --> 00:35:55,689
Maybe it's at all sales to even really take a vacation as a salesperson.

517
00:35:56,110 --> 00:36:04,115
So a lot of recruiters are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week um chasing two, three, $400,000
livings.

518
00:36:04,115 --> 00:36:08,418
So um I don't personally play hard anymore.

519
00:36:09,359 --> 00:36:12,621
Now that I, you know, I'm responsible for a company.

520
00:36:12,621 --> 00:36:13,912
um

521
00:36:13,912 --> 00:36:17,314
And I got 911s coming at me Friday night at 9 p.m.

522
00:36:17,314 --> 00:36:19,740
If I didn't, I'd probably play a little harder.

523
00:36:21,774 --> 00:36:22,954
What would that mean to you?

524
00:36:22,954 --> 00:36:25,454
You just got some, you just, your eyes just awoke.

525
00:36:25,454 --> 00:36:26,074
They awoke.

526
00:36:26,074 --> 00:36:27,462
I'm like, Oh, there he is.

527
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:31,975
Come on, man, this is gonna be published on my LinkedIn.

528
00:36:31,975 --> 00:36:33,418
can't, you know.

529
00:36:33,538 --> 00:36:41,096
I think people here's why here's here's why I asked that too and you can soften it up if
you want but I'm not saying all the craziness but people say today that they want

530
00:36:41,096 --> 00:36:42,548
authentic people.

531
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,102
Yeah.

532
00:36:44,216 --> 00:36:46,649
They want authentic and I don't know if they really want it.

533
00:36:46,649 --> 00:36:49,152
really, don't know if society really wants.

534
00:36:49,533 --> 00:36:50,164
Authenticity.

535
00:36:50,164 --> 00:36:53,568
Cause that's what you're saying, right?

536
00:36:54,454 --> 00:37:00,337
Yeah, I mean, look, I'm married now, right?

537
00:37:00,337 --> 00:37:05,100
But I mean, yeah, I mean, I went to Ohio State as a number one party school.

538
00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:06,940
I'd like to go out with my friends.

539
00:37:06,940 --> 00:37:12,243
um you know, I got out of there with a degree.

540
00:37:12,314 --> 00:37:13,744
You know, I'm happy about that.

541
00:37:13,744 --> 00:37:14,124
But.

542
00:37:14,124 --> 00:37:18,358
uh

543
00:37:18,358 --> 00:37:20,170
Will the keg stand go-

544
00:37:21,195 --> 00:37:22,530
I've done that, yeah.

545
00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:25,314
I was more of an ice looch guy.

546
00:37:25,314 --> 00:37:26,175
Oh yeah.

547
00:37:26,175 --> 00:37:32,341
So just, know, you said, you know, I like having a little banter on podcasts, but, you
said it's the number one party school.

548
00:37:32,341 --> 00:37:35,643
You know, we have an Ohio Bobcat sitting over to my right.

549
00:37:37,166 --> 00:37:40,729
And they claim that in Athens, Ohio, that that's the top party school.

550
00:37:40,729 --> 00:37:42,470
Do we need to have a debate around that?

551
00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:44,770
heard about it.

552
00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:48,850
And people will be like, man, there's a big, party at Ohio university every year.

553
00:37:48,850 --> 00:37:52,030
They have like some national massive annual thing there.

554
00:37:52,030 --> 00:37:55,390
And every problem I host Ohio state, I never actually went.

555
00:37:56,430 --> 00:37:58,050
but, uh, I don't know.

556
00:37:58,050 --> 00:38:04,290
I would say go down any street on Ohio state campus on a Tuesday.

557
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:09,310
Um, and every house is it's ridiculous.

558
00:38:09,310 --> 00:38:11,610
I don't know how people were in anything there.

559
00:38:11,660 --> 00:38:13,138
Yeah, well you found a way.

560
00:38:13,138 --> 00:38:15,672
walked away with a piece of paper that said you learned something.

561
00:38:15,672 --> 00:38:16,767
Hahaha!

562
00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:20,652
What, um, your business, what's this idea behind?

563
00:38:20,652 --> 00:38:24,255
Cause when anybody starts a business, a lot of people are mission driven.

564
00:38:24,255 --> 00:38:26,697
Some are just financially driven, which that's fine.

565
00:38:26,697 --> 00:38:30,299
Go do something different and earn the revenue, but some are mission driven.

566
00:38:30,299 --> 00:38:39,405
I'm, was trying to figure out when we talked to Will today and Frederick Fox and this
company, you have this, your community partnership and equity driven.

567
00:38:39,686 --> 00:38:42,538
And this isn't a got you question, but it's pushing the button a little bit.

568
00:38:42,538 --> 00:38:45,650
Like a lot of businesses make big statements like that.

569
00:38:48,002 --> 00:38:52,064
What's that mean and is it really backed up inside your company and business?

570
00:38:52,504 --> 00:38:54,355
Yes, it definitely is.

571
00:38:54,355 --> 00:38:56,176
It's why I started the business.

572
00:38:56,196 --> 00:39:01,138
So, you know, we pay our recruiters 80 % commissions on their sales.

573
00:39:01,139 --> 00:39:04,440
Most of the industry pays 40 to 50 % at the end of the day.

574
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,403
uh We, our partners are in a hundred percent.

575
00:39:08,403 --> 00:39:13,265
I'm a firm believer that you should never partner off a, you should never profit off a
partner.

576
00:39:13,265 --> 00:39:15,486
So we don't make any money off of a partner.

577
00:39:15,486 --> 00:39:22,254
uh Now we do share, we give each partner a P and L of their teams and we have a 50

578
00:39:22,254 --> 00:39:26,834
50 % ownership of their teams and they have a 50 % ownership.

579
00:39:27,034 --> 00:39:33,134
So I think I don't know of another staffing company that even has a hundred percent offer.

580
00:39:33,134 --> 00:39:42,094
I don't know of another stuff in company that even gives partners, real partnership stake
protects them in the event of a sale, gives them tag along, drag along rights.

581
00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:43,974
There's so many of these agencies out there.

582
00:39:43,974 --> 00:39:50,314
They're calling people partners and they're basically, you know, division leads with a 10
% profit sharing bonus.

583
00:39:50,354 --> 00:39:52,166
Um, we,

584
00:39:52,514 --> 00:39:57,196
We're probably the closest thing you could be to a nonprofit.

585
00:39:57,577 --> 00:40:02,159
So like, it's a very thin margin business, but we're cashflow positive.

586
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,722
I don't think anyone could disrupt us on how much we pay out.

587
00:40:05,722 --> 00:40:07,763
I think they would go broke if they tried.

588
00:40:07,763 --> 00:40:09,103
And I've almost gone broke.

589
00:40:09,103 --> 00:40:13,146
I was broke the first four years doing it, but we're now positive.

590
00:40:13,146 --> 00:40:15,997
And um so I don't know.

591
00:40:15,997 --> 00:40:19,750
I don't know anybody out there that's paying more than we do and tries to be more fair.

592
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:20,730
We are.

593
00:40:20,778 --> 00:40:22,561
We are a for-profit business.

594
00:40:22,561 --> 00:40:27,249
ah So I don't know anybody doing what we're doing.

595
00:40:27,249 --> 00:40:28,350
I'll tell you that.

596
00:40:28,839 --> 00:40:31,529
Um, why has it been right for you to do it then?

597
00:40:32,782 --> 00:40:35,935
because it was what I always wanted, working for somebody else.

598
00:40:39,470 --> 00:40:40,210
Hmm.

599
00:40:40,431 --> 00:40:46,279
Now it seems like, you going to use your skills and now it's time to scale the business by
bringing other recruiters on?

600
00:40:46,279 --> 00:40:51,015
Because you, you, you fomented, um, your ability and create relationships.

601
00:40:51,015 --> 00:40:52,306
know what your skills are.

602
00:40:52,306 --> 00:40:56,231
So now to scale the business, you need to bring other recruiters on and them, develop
them, learn them.

603
00:40:56,231 --> 00:40:56,462
Right.

604
00:40:56,462 --> 00:40:58,824
That's the focus of the business is what I'm feeling here.

605
00:40:59,852 --> 00:41:02,113
Yeah, I'm growing some muscles there, right?

606
00:41:02,113 --> 00:41:03,884
Like I know I can sell.

607
00:41:03,884 --> 00:41:06,626
know I can sell with the best of them.

608
00:41:06,626 --> 00:41:16,522
think where I've been growing muscles is training and development and, you know, people
leadership and then, you know, hiring accounting and getting better at automating

609
00:41:16,522 --> 00:41:20,254
accounting and getting better at financial planning and forecasting.

610
00:41:20,254 --> 00:41:25,757
think pretty good there, but I think where I'm trying to get better is developing people.

611
00:41:25,757 --> 00:41:27,692
um

612
00:41:27,692 --> 00:41:38,486
you know, create, creating better training and like passing skills and knowledge transfer
on, um, that ended up being much bigger thing than I realized.

613
00:41:39,246 --> 00:41:47,566
You know, Charlie Munger, I'm sure, I don't know you have some appreciation for him, but
he's an attorney, came from an accounting background, how he evaluated companies.

614
00:41:47,566 --> 00:41:51,446
I'm assuming a guy like you looked up to him, respected a guy like that.

615
00:41:51,446 --> 00:41:52,266
I bet.

616
00:41:52,266 --> 00:41:53,478
Am I right or wrong?

617
00:41:54,006 --> 00:41:57,107
don't know him personally, so it's probably bad I

618
00:41:57,112 --> 00:42:00,946
So it's Warren Buffett's right-hand man that just passed away at Berkshire Hathaway.

619
00:42:00,946 --> 00:42:03,679
He helped him evaluate the businesses, but here's what he said.

620
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:10,155
He said, one of the things he was worth two or 3 billion warm was worth a hundred, but he
said, show me the incentive.

621
00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:13,478
I'll show you the performance and the outcome.

622
00:42:14,994 --> 00:42:15,994
Yeah.

623
00:42:16,174 --> 00:42:21,634
Yeah, I think that's what our business models built on is, is I think we have the ultimate
carrot.

624
00:42:21,774 --> 00:42:34,914
Um, and so, you know, we, uh, we don't always have the best, like a lot of companies will
give you more of a base salary, low incentive and they'll cap.

625
00:42:34,914 --> 00:42:37,214
We're like the opposite.

626
00:42:37,214 --> 00:42:39,054
We're, we have the best carrot in town.

627
00:42:39,054 --> 00:42:42,014
can literally, you can't pay someone more than a hundred percent.

628
00:42:42,014 --> 00:42:43,230
We give them a path.

629
00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:44,891
all merit based.

630
00:42:44,931 --> 00:42:48,033
like we have the incentive die just turned all the way up.

631
00:42:48,033 --> 00:42:49,204
Like I'm a firm believer.

632
00:42:49,204 --> 00:42:51,005
It's like you help us get there.

633
00:42:51,005 --> 00:42:53,976
We're going to pay you more because you helped us get there.

634
00:42:53,997 --> 00:42:54,797
know.

635
00:42:56,228 --> 00:43:00,072
Where's this mission driven mindset come from?

636
00:43:04,078 --> 00:43:07,418
I think I just had a chip on my shoulder working for other people.

637
00:43:07,418 --> 00:43:08,638
Not that I did it that long.

638
00:43:08,638 --> 00:43:11,058
I was in corporate for eight years.

639
00:43:11,278 --> 00:43:20,198
And I think, you know, I spent two years by myself before I scaled up and I just kept on
thinking, okay, am I going to build a company just like everybody else?

640
00:43:20,198 --> 00:43:21,858
I know it'll work.

641
00:43:21,958 --> 00:43:27,778
But how do I build a company that how do I create an offer that I would accept?

642
00:43:27,778 --> 00:43:30,338
And that was a real question for me.

643
00:43:30,578 --> 00:43:31,670
And so.

644
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:37,460
I just reverse engineered it from what I would want in an offer and worked my way down.

645
00:43:39,166 --> 00:43:46,056
something else old Charlie Munger talks about he said when you have a problem invert
everything it's reverse engineering he said invert it you'll figure it out

646
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:47,475
Yep.

647
00:43:47,628 --> 00:43:47,888
Yep.

648
00:43:47,888 --> 00:43:49,379
He was a brilliant guy.

649
00:43:49,449 --> 00:43:52,151
I can see you've got this finance operations mind.

650
00:43:52,151 --> 00:43:53,141
I can tell, right?

651
00:43:53,141 --> 00:43:54,302
That's your approach to everything.

652
00:43:54,302 --> 00:43:55,252
It's very analytical.

653
00:43:55,252 --> 00:43:57,123
And, um, I appreciate that.

654
00:43:57,123 --> 00:43:59,625
If you say, Hey, I needed to be better, a better people leader.

655
00:43:59,625 --> 00:44:07,459
Um, there's not a lot of people who say, here's my strength, but for me to be the
entrepreneur, the leader that I need to be, I've got to go over here and look at this

656
00:44:07,459 --> 00:44:08,610
weakness and work on a heart.

657
00:44:08,610 --> 00:44:09,220
That's hard.

658
00:44:09,220 --> 00:44:09,678
Isn't it?

659
00:44:09,678 --> 00:44:14,753
I mean, it's really hard to work on what we would perceive as our shortcomings or our
weaknesses.

660
00:44:15,134 --> 00:44:16,104
It's hard.

661
00:44:17,518 --> 00:44:23,198
I've been wrestling in this because some people say, just stick to your strengths and hire
around your weaknesses.

662
00:44:23,198 --> 00:44:31,278
But then you hear Kobe Bryant, he has all these videos about how he'd go into the gym and
work on his left hand shot for hours and hours because he knew it was his weakness.

663
00:44:31,278 --> 00:44:32,518
And that's why he was so great.

664
00:44:32,518 --> 00:44:34,998
He was constantly going after his weaknesses.

665
00:44:34,998 --> 00:44:37,478
So I'm torn on the topic, to be honest.

666
00:44:38,218 --> 00:44:41,126
But yeah, I think.

667
00:44:41,302 --> 00:44:43,564
Yes, I am a very analytical person.

668
00:44:43,564 --> 00:44:44,254
like numbers.

669
00:44:44,254 --> 00:44:46,966
I was in space mathematics before I got into finance.

670
00:44:46,966 --> 00:44:50,228
So I like to create scenarios.

671
00:44:50,228 --> 00:44:53,030
I like to think three, four, five years ahead.

672
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:56,663
And I like to think, run numbers and scenario analysis.

673
00:44:56,663 --> 00:44:58,104
don't know many, I don't know.

674
00:44:58,104 --> 00:45:04,538
That makes me, I think a lot of CEOs or founders are really like visionary and sales
focused.

675
00:45:04,538 --> 00:45:07,080
I think I'm a little more tactical.

676
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,221
I'm a little bit more operational minded.

677
00:45:09,221 --> 00:45:10,042
I'm,

678
00:45:11,074 --> 00:45:12,654
Yeah, that's just how I am.

679
00:45:12,654 --> 00:45:20,234
Do you think without, without trying to, you know, it's always risky to make an analogy
for an insult, but is it a more, a little bit more Steve Wozniak to a Steve Jobs?

680
00:45:21,358 --> 00:45:24,858
Yeah, I would be more like Wozniak.

681
00:45:24,858 --> 00:45:28,498
Yeah, I don't like, I don't like vision for vision sake personally.

682
00:45:28,498 --> 00:45:29,278
I can do it.

683
00:45:29,278 --> 00:45:30,998
I can do the exercise.

684
00:45:31,218 --> 00:45:34,358
Um, you know, some people in the company say, this thing's going to be huge.

685
00:45:34,358 --> 00:45:36,178
This could be a hundred million on a company.

686
00:45:36,178 --> 00:45:39,378
I'm, I'm more concerned about what do we got to do to get to 20 million?

687
00:45:39,378 --> 00:45:42,118
I can do that mental exercise all day long.

688
00:45:42,438 --> 00:45:49,958
Um, you know, know Elon Musk is a guy that says he, he creates this big audacious goal and
then everybody has to reverse engineer it.

689
00:45:49,958 --> 00:45:51,462
I do create a.

690
00:45:51,594 --> 00:45:55,384
Audacious goal, but I don't I Don't know.

691
00:45:55,384 --> 00:46:00,397
I'm not I'm more of a solver Take the steps.

692
00:46:00,397 --> 00:46:06,539
I like to focus there Yeah, I'll get to my North Star, but I keep my North Star reachable.

693
00:46:06,539 --> 00:46:13,902
It's like right now my North Star is 20 million 10 million I'll I'll figure out my North
my next North Star once I'm there

694
00:46:13,902 --> 00:46:14,522
Yeah.

695
00:46:14,522 --> 00:46:21,742
Do you think the struggle is because like, bet if we, I've never even taken an IQ test, I,
people talk with their IQ.

696
00:46:21,742 --> 00:46:23,442
I just look at IQ as problem solving.

697
00:46:23,442 --> 00:46:25,542
Like how quick can you problem solve something?

698
00:46:25,542 --> 00:46:29,602
That's what take any problem that that's the IQ that I'm looking for for somebody.

699
00:46:29,602 --> 00:46:32,622
But I can tell that you're really intellectual and really smart.

700
00:46:32,622 --> 00:46:42,918
Like if you were next to me, I'm like, let him go and crush this thing and design it and
build it, take the outer, but, here is the challenge, which I know for so many people is.

701
00:46:44,024 --> 00:46:45,705
They need to be sold a vision.

702
00:46:47,478 --> 00:46:47,878
Right.

703
00:46:47,878 --> 00:46:49,289
And so I think that's what's tough.

704
00:46:49,289 --> 00:46:51,200
You're like, guys, it should be unnecessary.

705
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:52,201
We don't need to do this.

706
00:46:52,201 --> 00:46:54,462
Let's just execute these things that I've figured out.

707
00:46:54,462 --> 00:46:54,933
Come on.

708
00:46:54,933 --> 00:46:55,833
You're motivated enough.

709
00:46:55,833 --> 00:46:57,384
You don't need me to rah rah.

710
00:46:57,685 --> 00:47:02,167
There's a big part of the segment of the population that doesn't have what you have.

711
00:47:02,167 --> 00:47:04,588
I mean, a big part.

712
00:47:04,589 --> 00:47:06,880
And so they do need this other piece.

713
00:47:07,694 --> 00:47:18,314
So I do have a vision for the company when even when I was 400,000 revenue, had a five
year plan that had year one through five.

714
00:47:18,314 --> 00:47:24,914
And I said, we'll be 1 million, then we'll be 2 million, then we'll be 4 million, 8, 15,
20.

715
00:47:24,914 --> 00:47:25,354
Right.

716
00:47:25,354 --> 00:47:27,154
And I said, this is what we're going to do.

717
00:47:27,154 --> 00:47:29,434
And we've been hitting it every year.

718
00:47:29,434 --> 00:47:29,854
Right.

719
00:47:29,854 --> 00:47:34,574
So I do have a vision and I already mapped out how it would be true.

720
00:47:34,574 --> 00:47:36,070
And we just.

721
00:47:36,136 --> 00:47:38,950
So I don't want to say I don't have a vision ah

722
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:39,910
you do.

723
00:47:39,912 --> 00:47:43,508
You don't have this thing of thinking you need to sell the vision to anybody.

724
00:47:45,218 --> 00:47:46,329
Well, I do sell the vision.

725
00:47:46,329 --> 00:47:47,439
Okay.

726
00:47:48,601 --> 00:47:48,881
Yeah.

727
00:47:48,881 --> 00:48:01,172
I think that's, that's how you, think, I think, cause as a small company, you can't
really, you have to be a storyteller and a vision and why you, somebody would work for you

728
00:48:01,172 --> 00:48:04,255
versus a large company that might give you more.

729
00:48:04,255 --> 00:48:08,539
So like, that's how you win as a small company is having a clear, confident vision.

730
00:48:08,539 --> 00:48:11,982
Um, that big companies just can't win on.

731
00:48:11,982 --> 00:48:16,565
because they've got processes and they've had 30 years, you're going to do this job this
way.

732
00:48:16,565 --> 00:48:17,925
That's how it's going to get done.

733
00:48:17,925 --> 00:48:24,749
I think with a small company, that's the biggest reason why people work for you is they
get to be creative.

734
00:48:24,749 --> 00:48:26,190
They know your vision.

735
00:48:26,190 --> 00:48:29,942
So I allow people to be creative towards it, but the vision doesn't change.

736
00:48:29,942 --> 00:48:31,242
It's been the same for five years.

737
00:48:31,242 --> 00:48:32,503
We're going to get to 20 million.

738
00:48:32,503 --> 00:48:34,466
We're going to figure it out from there.

739
00:48:34,466 --> 00:48:35,286
There you go.

740
00:48:35,286 --> 00:48:35,788
All right.

741
00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:39,904
So to wrap this up, I could sit and talk to a smart people all day long and you're one of
those.

742
00:48:39,904 --> 00:48:41,095
Yeah.

743
00:48:41,095 --> 00:48:41,487
you, man.

744
00:48:41,487 --> 00:48:42,660
I appreciate it.

745
00:48:42,784 --> 00:48:46,238
Even though I did kickstands and I slew just

746
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:50,119
Well, what I want everybody to know is all the stupid things we did back on.

747
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:53,556
We benefited from social media and not tracking everything we did.

748
00:48:55,515 --> 00:48:57,876
Well, you did, but you know

749
00:48:57,876 --> 00:49:02,702
everything you weren't not everything was being documented yet was it when you were coming
up

750
00:49:02,702 --> 00:49:03,533
bit, yeah.

751
00:49:03,533 --> 00:49:08,688
I mean, MySpace was coming up and, you know, so you might've slipped it.

752
00:49:08,688 --> 00:49:10,130
Yeah, but not like now.

753
00:49:10,130 --> 00:49:10,910
No.

754
00:49:11,284 --> 00:49:12,615
It's everything.

755
00:49:13,737 --> 00:49:24,208
No, I think I did when I talked to people, um, this is off, you know, it's off topic here,
but I had the perfect timing in history to grow up.

756
00:49:24,649 --> 00:49:26,531
It was perfect.

757
00:49:26,531 --> 00:49:29,655
Um, for so many reasons we could dig into.

758
00:49:29,655 --> 00:49:33,298
And yet as I was getting out of high school, the internet was showing up.

759
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:42,330
So I imagine going through the educational journey and not having any of that, getting
into the, you know, getting into my work life and then having to learn it, that would have

760
00:49:42,330 --> 00:49:52,953
been little more tough, but we're sitting at high school and we're playing Oregon trail
and we're connecting to AOL and it, you know, the whole, so we were there, um but we had

761
00:49:52,953 --> 00:49:54,044
the spectrum of all of it.

762
00:49:54,044 --> 00:50:01,509
So, um yeah, I can't imagine honestly what it is to be a 14 or 16 or 18 year old human
today.

763
00:50:01,509 --> 00:50:03,250
It has to be really difficult.

764
00:50:04,504 --> 00:50:05,174
I bet.

765
00:50:05,174 --> 00:50:12,636
Yeah, I'm old enough to click into AOL and then AIM Girls back in the day.

766
00:50:12,636 --> 00:50:15,738
em That was me too.

767
00:50:15,738 --> 00:50:21,210
um But yeah, and mean, these kids are, everything's being video spread.

768
00:50:21,210 --> 00:50:25,682
There's all this fake AI news and it's just, you can't even trust anything anymore.

769
00:50:25,682 --> 00:50:26,902
It's ridiculous.

770
00:50:27,031 --> 00:50:27,711
All right.

771
00:50:27,711 --> 00:50:32,736
So, you really um pronounce your business as a people based business.

772
00:50:33,077 --> 00:50:38,923
As we wrap up here and you tie it up to your brand and Frederick, Frederick Fox and them
coming out and find you on LinkedIn.

773
00:50:38,923 --> 00:50:42,836
I'm sure that's where you do a lot of your business and social for the, for the business
on LinkedIn.

774
00:50:43,318 --> 00:50:46,521
Yeah, it's a professional services business run by people.

775
00:50:46,521 --> 00:50:48,603
And so I don't know our product.

776
00:50:48,603 --> 00:50:50,475
I don't even know if it's a product or service.

777
00:50:50,475 --> 00:50:54,139
It's mainly a service, but our product, if there was one is people.

778
00:50:54,139 --> 00:50:56,911
So it's, it is a people service business.

779
00:50:57,112 --> 00:51:00,274
but yeah, we're on www.fredrickfox.com.

780
00:51:01,296 --> 00:51:02,697
you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn.

781
00:51:02,697 --> 00:51:04,289
I'll check it at 11 o'clock at night.

782
00:51:04,289 --> 00:51:05,420
My wife will be upset.

783
00:51:05,420 --> 00:51:08,242
Um, but, I will respond.

784
00:51:08,672 --> 00:51:13,987
And, um, they can find out about your new product, even though we talked about AI and
whether it's relevant.

785
00:51:14,162 --> 00:51:16,801
You guys have a proprietary product that's Ruby AI.

786
00:51:16,801 --> 00:51:19,024
You're doing some stuff for recruiting on that front too.

787
00:51:19,024 --> 00:51:19,744
So.

788
00:51:20,236 --> 00:51:24,089
Yep, we're trying to automate a lot of.

789
00:51:24,290 --> 00:51:26,151
Timesheets onboarding payroll.

790
00:51:26,151 --> 00:51:36,423
um We're also trying to automate accounting and dashboard analytics into one tool, and
then we're also automating within the same tool sales leads via.

791
00:51:36,423 --> 00:51:37,742
I don't know if you know clay.

792
00:51:37,742 --> 00:51:47,840
We're doing a lot with clay tables and then displaying it in our in our software, so we're
trying to empower our uh salespeople with real time leads.

793
00:51:48,279 --> 00:52:00,458
So it's an AI, you know, the interface, it has a lot more on the back end that's feeding
it to empower our people to sell more and for our accountants to process faster.

794
00:52:01,422 --> 00:52:01,922
All right.

795
00:52:01,922 --> 00:52:03,462
You got a bright future ahead, man.

796
00:52:03,462 --> 00:52:05,102
You're 37.

797
00:52:05,122 --> 00:52:06,062
Thank you brother.

798
00:52:06,062 --> 00:52:06,602
Yeah, man.

799
00:52:06,602 --> 00:52:09,822
think over the next nine years, I'm like, man, you were at 37.

800
00:52:09,822 --> 00:52:12,882
You're talking in a way that I wasn't, I wasn't talking, understanding things.

801
00:52:12,882 --> 00:52:16,282
So I'm sure there's great things ahead down in Delray beach, Florida.

802
00:52:16,942 --> 00:52:17,929
Thanks Mark.