#153 - Mary Elizabeth Sadd | How Great Leaders See Around Corners and Live a Generous Life

0:00 When you have somebody that can actually see around corners what could go wrong, being prepared for it, but still being uh optimistic, I know it when I'm talking to an executive that gets it. Welcome back to not just another episode of the necessary entrepreneur. um We are fortunate to be able to sit down for what's probably going to be a half hour conversation today that could go on for two or three hours, but maybe that's one down the road, possibly in studio.

0:44 But today I'm just pumped to have a conversation with the guests that I can go for grow from as well. um So today we're joined by Mary Elizabeth Saad. She's a leadership advisor, executive search expert. an author who has spent over two decades helping companies build world-class leadership teams. She's worked with CEOs and boards across Fortune 500, private equity and fast growth companies to navigate one of the hardest parts of entrepreneurship, scaling the people side of the business. um Mary also authored, which today we're going to dig into, a book, Living a Generous Life, which is learning, earning and returning, where she explores what it means to build a career and company that leave a legacy.

1:25 Mary Elizabeth, welcome to the show. Thank you, Mark. I'm thrilled to be here with you today. Yeah, we had an awesome five minute conversation with you beforehand. So I'm really excited about this. We talked about the awesome white rose behind your head and the globe. I asked you, we'll get into the book, but I asked you, said, hey, what's the meaning of that globe behind you? And I'd love for you to share again what that means, the two things that you had on your desk. Yeah, thank you. So I had my own company several years ago, a search firm before I went on to Cornferry and then the firm I'm with now. And I always made sure my team, everybody had a globe and an hourglass on their desk, just to remind people that your global mindset is so important when you're talking to executives, no matter whether it's a small company or a big company, but have a global mindset and think past the place where you're sitting right then and there.

2:13 And the hourglass Mine is broken, so that's why it's not behind me on the other side. But hourglass is to remind people that time is so precious and make the most of your time be useful and time kills deals. So just be mindful of your time. Hmm. How have you managed that over your careers on being an entrepreneur, starting a business, selling it, and then now working for these firms? How do you manage everything in life and ultimately your time? That's a great question. So I raised, my husband and raised three boys who are now grown adults in their late 20s and near 30s who are just amazing. Our goal was to raise ordinary boys to become extraordinary young men. And I'm happy to say by luck or on purpose, we tried to do it on purpose. They are just extraordinary.

2:53 So we're thrilled about that. I think a lot of it came from time. think time, work kind of expands to the amount of time you give it. And we had three boys who were all athletes that were very involved. They traveled for lacrosse. um And my husband and I both work, so we just have to figure it out and manage it. Quite frankly, I outsource things that were not the best use of my time. I'm not known for my cooking skills or cleaning or a variety of things. So I would outsource things that were not the best use of my time. And I found when I was done working and I came home, I didn't want to sit them in front of the TV so I could go clean and cook. No, I want to be with them. I want to raise these boys. I want to take them to their sport. I think um I did the important things. You put the big rocks in the bucket first.

3:34 Do you approach business the same way that you intentionally, because I use the word, you want to raise extraordinary men. And so the word that steps out to me is extraordinary. And you put that together, it's just extra ordinary. It's extra. And so, A, I want to hear what that means for you, what that meant you want to raise extraordinary. And then do you take the same approach with time management and also doing extraordinary things in companies the same way? What's that mean? Yeah. exactly as you say, extraordinary. I mean, we're all given what we're given. I feel like we were blessed with lovely young men, but we were very focused on routine and discipline and respecting authority and not just being their best friend.

4:15 mean, think we're best friends with them today because we did the hard things when it was hard to do and just really instilled in them, again, respect for authority, respect for each other, thoughtfulness, giving. know, the book is Living a Generous Life. I'll tell you one quick story. Luke, my middle son, when he got his first big boy job working for Ernst & Young, I opened up some mailer that was a receipt from a place where I donate on a regular basis. And I realized it was him. It was for him. It wasn't my donation. And I called and I said, Luke, that is so cool. what made you do that? And he said, well, you did it. And it's more is caught than taught. So I think we tried to demonstrate for them how to be thoughtful and kind and do more and help other people.

4:58 and seek out ways to make ourselves useful and not be idle. So extraordinary, just as you say. And in work, I think that's a great question. I have learned over the years, I've heard myself say this so many times, if I'm not talking to a potential client or a candidate, it's not the best use of my time. If I'm over here working on a spreadsheet, I am highly overcompensated because I'm not gonna be very good at it. It's gonna take a very long time. So you have to know where is your expertise, where are your gifts. and make the most use of where you're gifted and outsourced and surround yourself with people that can do the things where they're excellent and you're not. So you touched on the book, I want to come back to that, but you have a deep, deep history. um I have no connection to the University of Georgia, except for a couple of awesome people, right?

5:40 We know Tommy, who's fantastic. He's got that Georgia connection. You guys are connected, but your ties go deep at the University of Georgia. So I'd like to hear the story about that and then how that brings you to where you are today. Have you been impacted significantly from that experience through multiple generations? so much. uh My maiden name is Waddell, D-A-D-D-E-L-L. And some of you may know if you're listening and you went to the University of Georgia, the arches there's that historic plaque off to the left. And it goes through bit of the history of UGA. And it refers to a Moses Waddell in 1819, so a long time ago. The university started to thrive under Moses Waddell.

6:20 He arrived in 1819. There were seven students and three administrators. And it was really floundering. mean, it was nearly out of money. It just became, switched from Franklin College to University of Georgia. And he really, it started to thrive. And when he left 10 years later, there were hundreds of students. So I found myself on campus speaking to students sometimes. And a lot of us don't know what our grandparents or great grandparents did, but this is my great, great, great grandfather. So I'm fifth generation. My youngest son is sixth generation in direct line. And I just love that I stand there on campus and it is an amazing university. It's an amazing institution. And I think about what this man did, what he chose to do, which was leave an academy that he had started in South Carolina and go to UGA when it was floundering, when he had this very successful school.

7:05 It was floundering and to make it what is the foundation of today, we're standing on campus. And I'm like, but for Moses Waddell, what would be UGA today? And I think about he's impacted tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people throughout the years that don't even know him. And it's a reminder to me that we're leaving a legacy that's going to impact people. Every day, by choice or not, we're leaving a legacy and we need to be thoughtful and make good choices about how we're impacting people. There are folks that will never ever meet us, won't know our name and we're impacting them right now, you and I both. that goes in line with this idea that, em you know, it's our job now to plant trees for which the shade will never see. Right. And to see that the stories of people and, and I'm very positive and optimistic about society, but these stories need to be shared.

7:52 Yeah. Right. Because I think that we'll talk about it today about making intentional acts and developing, making an impact and living a good life. But it's our job to build a really good wife for us and our families right now. But it's also our job to push this thing forward from a generational perspective. And right. I'm so appreciative personally on what's been done in those four or five and six and seven previous generations. Their lives were way more difficult and the things that they did sacrifices they did with shorter life expectancies. And they did all that work to build this for us. We can't tear it down. It's our job to push it forward a little bit more. Yep, I love that Mark, you're absolutely right. We're standing on the shoulders of the people that came before us and we've got to stand tall for the ones that come after us.

8:32 Yeah. So you mentioned when he first went from Franklin College and it became University of Georgia, there was a ratio of seven students to three administrators. There's this, we won't get into public education and education, but I think this is a correlation for business. If there's an argument that the better teacher to student ratio you get in classrooms, is there an argument to be made in business as well that that's similar when we find mentors to follow, when we find departments and companies to join? Have you seen over the years, that that same thing applies in business or no. I've never even brought this up or asked this question. Yeah, know, depends is not a very good answer. But what I will tell you about mentorship, I think mentorship has become something that is commonplace.

9:13 When I graduated in the 80s, people didn't talk about mentors. You know, I went to mobile, then I was at GE, and you may or may not get a formal mentor. Now people formally get a mentor. And while I think that's good, what I think, you know, the point I want to make is having a sponsor is more important for your growth in a company. And a sponsor isn't somebody that gives you advice like a mentor. A sponsor is somebody that represents you favorably when you're not in the room. Your name comes up and that's how you move forward. When I was at the coin fairy, was a part of the women CEO speak study that was funded by the Rockefeller Foundation. And we interviewed female CEOs and really looked at what was the difference both in psychometrics and experience from the females that made it to CEO compared to the men.

9:53 And it's outrageously still not. um It's not moved forward very much. There's still very few people of color, very few women comparatively speaking. But nonetheless, almost every one of them referred to having a sponsor and they didn't choose their sponsor. Somebody chose them because they saw talent. So I'm not necessarily answering your question. I think what depends is what are you doing to get access and have people representing you because somebody may choose you and you may need to reach out and figure out who would I like to be talking about me behind those closed doors. So it's reaching up. You said something really important though, that someone that was in a leadership position, they saw talent. So that person did something to put themselves in a position to be seen.

10:38 what's our metric and our story and what you've learned about that? Well, in the case of these women that we interviewed, was almost all men because there weren't enough females that there were a lot of women behind those closed doors. And I think it was just spotting talent and caring about a different voice and um a different perspective in the room that had been for years and years and years. So I think it's spotting that, seeing that somebody's smart, they're ambitious, they're hardworking, they're all the things that make a great leader. And I think oh leadership today, would also tell you, is authentic. There's, uh you we talk a lot about mental health, but I've seen this long before it was something to talk about. The leaders that are thoughtful and genuine and just transparent are the ones that really make an impact on companies.

11:19 Can I tell you a quick story? I was gonna say, do you have a great example of that? Yeah. Yes, okay. I work in the industrial manufacturing sector. And so a lot of these companies have big footprint manufacturing sites all over the world, or even some just around the, know, 2030 around the Americas. And I was interviewing this one gentleman at one point in time, and he was telling me some different stories. And I was asking about what he did to create the magnificent results that he had gotten. And he said he would go around to the, you know, he'd do a town hall at different plants. And it might be a year in between getting back to the same one, because there's so many. But he would go up to the operators at the machines and of course somebody, they would usually have their name, but he might say, hey, Mark, yeah, how are you doing? He would remember last year your daughter was going off to college, how's everything going?

12:01 And it might be a 30 second interaction, but he really would make eye contact. I was actually with somebody in a plant yesterday, I was with the CEO and he literally, there's an operator worker walking by and the CEO went up and just grabbed him, shook his hand and patted him on the back. And like for these, the top person in an organization to be on a plant floor and acknowledge you, is really a big deal. People need to be seen and they need to feel cared for. And if people feel seen, heard and cared for, they will be productive employees. And about half the population of the US supposedly is, the stat is 50 % are unengaged. And if you want people to be engaged, they have to be seen and heard and felt to make special. So I think that's just a brilliant leadership tip.

12:45 When you walk with these CEOs, um are they seeing everything? I think they miss very little. I agree with you. Yeah, they miss very little. Yep. And so what's the responsibility of every individual that wants to be seen? Yeah. I think it is the leader's job to do the things that you said that is their responsibility, but there's also equal responsibility and the positions that I've been employee over my life. I was seen because of the things I did and the way I carried myself and the attitude that I had. And so I had to learn to do that, but I think I had to understand that I was responsible for that. That was totally separate from what the responsibility of leadership was.

13:28 Well, I think there's accountability to having your voice, finding your voice. There's so many people, and I'll tell you, women in particular, especially male-dominated industries and spaces that don't feel like they have a voice. And I mean, I remember feeling like that a few times in my career, but it's my responsibility to be seen and to be heard. And if something's bothering me, don't just mutter about it to somebody else. Don't just complain to my husband. Say something, do something, make the place better. And I will tell you, leaders make mistakes too. They're allowed. But if they don't know, what's going on if there's something that wasn't received well. I think it's disrespectful. Yeah, I agree. Did you, I didn't do a deep dive into the book, but I'm assuming since, you know, developing women leaders and having them show up in boardrooms and C-suites is important.

14:09 Did you read Sheryl Samberg's book back in the day about weaning in? Leaning in, yes, I love that. What was your take on it? uh I think she's spot on and it's like having your voice and leaning in and being a part of the conversation. I if we want to choose to be a wallflower, that's not somebody else's fault just because you may be in a minority or you may be, I kind of joke about a gentleman I used to work with, it's tall, very tall, booming voice. I he would literally lean back in his chair and people would turn to say, what's he going to say? And I'm like, I'm a kind of small person, especially next to him. I'd have to lean in, I might raise my hand and nobody's like looking. So I'd have to. I'd have to make myself seen because I'm not physically so booming, if you will.

14:52 I think the whole, literally lean in and be seen and be heard and know you have value or you wouldn't be there. m you leaned in as you were coming up through the ranks, how did you make yourself seen? What was the approach that you took to make sure that people saw you in the way you wanted them to see you? So I'll tell you specifically when I am. So when I left GE, they were fortune one at the time, and that's a tough place to be seen. But I was surrounded by so many great leaders and they are great about recognizing young talent and really giving you opportunities and big projects. I missed the memo that my husband didn't want to move every two years. So that's why I ended up leaving. So I kept the dream husband, left the dream job.

15:34 So when I started my own firm after working for a boutique for a little bit, I realized like, I didn't have all the answers. And I don't want to say I faked it because you do fake some things, but I just was relentless in figuring out what's working, what's not, what do do more of? And I think I have a particular gift for encouraging people. And my number one strengths in the Clifton Strengths Finders is positivity. And some people ask me like, even when things are tough, you know, is it hard to stay positive? I wish I could give it to people. I do think you can practice it. I think you can, you know, hone that as a skill, but I come by it naturally. So even when things aren't great, I can't help but to Well, it's gonna get better. gonna, I mean, it just is. So I think as an encourager, I would encourage people if I made a mistake or we went the wrong direction or somebody else made a mistake, say, okay, what's next?

16:18 What are we gonna do? And so you just keep moving forward. You don't ever sit back and, you know, take your licks. You go forward. think, um, so often, you know, there was this toxic positivity thing years ago that really irritated me that conversation because I'm somebody that I believe that you can choose the way that you feel about things. And it doesn't change what's happening, but the way you feel about it, if you're approaching something in positive manner, what I found from my experience, I'm going to solve it quicker. I'm going to sign yesterday. I was walking through a construction site, just all these things that I'm around. And, um, one of the contractors, hasn't gone. As planned, we've had some delays and they were finally on the job and I was walking through and I said, hello, was one of those moments where they're uncomfortable and they're waiting for me to be uncomfortable.

17:04 Cause they, everybody knows it's not a happy situation. And so I said, hello. And the first thing they said back to me was they said, said, Hey, how are you doing? And they're like, Oh man, it's tough. And they said, how are you? was like, I'm great. And he's like, don't lie to me. said, no, what are you talking about? I'm. And. And in the moment, I'm not being dishonest, but if they want to have a conversation about it, I'll tell my guys, yeah, I'm not happy this has taken this long, but it's good to see you here today. So maybe we can double time it and get this thing done. love that. I'll tell you, everybody's got stuff going on. have a few heavy things, one of which is I have a sister who's dying of ovarian cancer. And em I'm racing down to see her again tomorrow because she's just taking a turn for the worse. em I tell people, like she's my best friend and she's been ill for a while, but I literally think it's hard.

17:50 It's very, very hard. And if God trusts me with big problems, who am I not to say, you that you trust me? Thank you that you trust me with big problems. And it's not being It's not being Pollyanna. I literally think, you you get big problems if you can handle it and you can do something about it. Um, what I know in that moment, it's probably outside of where I should even go to speak to it. Your best friend and your sister. It's tough times. What I do know about that situation, about the approach that you're taking, but you benefit her that she's going through this, having your personality, your perspective. Thank you. Thank you. I've spent a lot of time with her since her diagnosis and it's been a blessing. You know, you hate to lose somebody suddenly.

18:30 You hate to lose anybody period. We're going to that's life. But the blessing, my dog wants to say something. Okay, good. She wants to say hello. Her name is Gurley as in Todd Gurley, like UGA. it? Yeah. Okay. um But the blessing is I've had time with her to talk about, there's nothing we haven't talked about in the last few months. um so that's been special. Good for you being with her. Let's jump over to this book. You're really passionate about this. I want you to speak to really what it means to you and why you wrote it and how we can all benefit from it. But the one thing that I love is these small intentional acts of generosity. This isn't my story today, this is your story.

19:10 But that is 100 % truth and I've experienced it. And so um I want to hear about living a generous life, learning, earning and returning. um We want to hear about it. Thank you. Well, girly may or may not join our conversation anymore. okay, so I think, so I started writing this because I heard myself talking about it on campus. And I would talk to these students and I would say, you've got to learn well. And I learned this from, you know, the stories about my great-great grandfather. He actually was a preacher, decided to become an educator because he felt like you shouldn't preach to people that aren't educated. So that's how we got into education. So preacher to teacher. And I realized... education that opens doors for like just countless generations, right?

19:51 And people that don't have access to education, breaks my heart. So where I give a lot of my time and money is helping support people that don't have access to education as well as places that help cure childhood diseases and clean water for children that don't have that. But anyways, I heard myself, you're on campus, you're at a wonderful university, you're getting an amazing degree, learn well. And I believe the better you learn, the more you'll earn. And yes, there's some money. thing there, there's a money component to it, you can't give what you don't have, be it your time or your wisdom or your money. And if I'm not sending money for clean water in Africa, I know I'm certainly not single-handedly saving this, but if people don't have enough money to donate and share, who's going to do it?

20:31 It's a privilege to make money. You can't give what you don't have. So I think there's some limiting beliefs around earning and quite frankly, females have more of this. We're still at 86 cents on the dollar to what men earn and that's barely up in 20 years. And that's not the fault of anybody that maybe we don't ask for it. I don't know, I can't solve that one. But I think the better you earn, you can then return. And I want you to have wisdom, I want you to have time, I want you to have treasure, I want you to be able to support an underrepresented youth that doesn't have access to education. So the cycle of learning, earning, and returning is so, you get to be generous if you do those things well. Did you start out, when did you come up with this? Were you already living it before you wrote it down?

21:12 Were you living it, experiencing it, knew it? Yes, yes. And as I would speak on campus, I heard myself talking about these three circles coming together. I realized this is how I've lived my life. And so there are people that said, you've got to write a book. And I'd say, sure. And then I realized I'm either a liar or I'm really going to write the book. So I started during COVID kind of dabbling. And then when my sister was diagnosed about a year ago, she said, if you don't hurry and finish it, I'm never going to read it. And she read it. She actually did the forward. so she was really my inspiration to get over the finish line. Boy, what could we take away from motivation and inspiration with that moment? Because you wouldn't have finished the book in the same timeframe without her going through this. No, no, no, I wouldn't have.

21:53 And it was how it was supposed to be. And she's such a believer in me and some of the things that I'm doing today and combining my career of executive search and how does that correlate to leaders and the people I interview and the generosity and transparency that we talked about. I feel like she's the catalyst that really pushed that out of me. And I love where I am today and I'm proud that she really helped get me here. When you say you were speaking on campus, how often do you go and what environment? Are you an adjunct professor? Do you have public forums? What do do? So it depends. Some years I speak more than others. I'm on the Terry Alumni Board, the Business College Board.

22:34 And before I joined that, found myself, okay, I'll tell you, my husband and I invested in an endowment at UGA in my great-great-grandfather's name. And our endowment is to support somebody that can get into UGA but doesn't have the extra of five to 10,000 to be there. Because even though you get all these scholarships, there's still more money. Our first student was a young lady whose family was homeless at the time, and nobody in her family had ever been to school. been to the university, to a college. And she graduated in four years with a double dog, which is, you know, undergrad and a master's. we are just over the moon about being able to do something that is, you know, somewhat um seemingly small, but is making waves for generations. Like her whole family is impacted by this.

23:16 So I was asked to speak sometimes to business school or students or be when I had my firm, I was asked to talk to the entrepreneurs group. So just a variety of different connections to UGA and invited to speak. And since I've been on the board, I've been heavily involved in that more so than speaking to the students. But I love being on campus and, just seeing these bright young people that I'm this, I don't even, I wouldn't even be to get back in the school this year. They're so bright. This time it's amazing. It keeps you feeling young. Yes. Well, they're just so ambitious and they're doing such big, amazing things. It's, it's inspiring. Yeah, that's awesome. So what are you doing? What's your professional endeavors? You've done all these things. You're doing these things from a philanthropic perspective. You spend all this time at UGA.

23:57 You've been an entrepreneur. You've sold companies. You're writing books. What do you really still want to do? What are you doing right now? What do you want to do? That's awesome. Thank you. The field that I'm in is wonderful in that you can do a little less, but I run the industrial pod, but I can, I'm training up my successor. And in this business, you don't like take your box and fill it and walk out the front door. I could do less search and handle the leadership position and do it forever. So that's nice. And I don't want to ever stop interviewing interesting, cool people like I do now. I think it's just, it's a very cool profession. In the meantime, I have found myself with some opportunities for speaking on some podcasts. And I feel this, I feel this just inspiration to talk to people.

24:38 And maybe it's about living a generous life. I think I have a few other books in me, but just having the opportunity to talk to and inspire people with that combination of what's great leadership and what are you doing with your life and how are you doing it on purpose? just feel that's, I'd like that chapter to be getting bigger while the, you know, the search is steady for a bit. And then maybe appoint my successor and do a little bit less. So, um and we could talk forever, but let's dig a little bit deeper here to wrap this up on these C-suite level executives that you've interacted with over your career. You know, I think all of us are like, man, what makes them different and how does that person become successful? We have all these questions, but what for you personally in your quiet moments, what's been most intriguing to you about being around these people?

25:26 So I've been around, I'm fortunate to be around so many amazing leaders and interview them. I don't know how to describe how you discern this in somebody, but I've learned to just see it. When you have somebody that can actually see around corners, what could go wrong, being prepared for it, but still being uh optimistic about how, you know, have the strategy, have the plan, have the contingent, but literally I call it seeing around corners. And I can just, I know it when I'm talking to an executive that gets it. the gentleman I work for now, feel like he's got this, sees things that I'm, most of us are like, what are you thinking? Why would you want to do that? And next thing you know, I'm like, that's brilliant. So, you know, I don't know that I have that, but I can see it in other people. And it's a leader that can see around the corner and make great decisions and course correct quickly.

26:07 Hmm. So when you see those people, when you were in an executive search, when you saw them, who do you, what do you do? Do you call like the top company and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is the person. Yeah, so I get called by the top company before I talk to the candidate. So I get hired to go find those people. And we have to kiss a lot of frogs. And it doesn't mean somebody isn't a good executive, but when you're bringing somebody in from the outside, especially in a C-suite position, and there's not an internal successor, it better, I call it the wow factor. Everybody you thought they should be in line for that job and didn't get it, they need to be saying, wow, now I know why you didn't promote me into that. So I look for this wow factor and I try as best as possible if it's not confidential to be around the current person, maybe they're retiring, maybe they're getting fired, whatever the situation is.

26:54 If I can get to know them pretty well, I know what wow is, it's the next best version of what that company needs in that position. I also find that I'm not supposed to place, like if I'm replacing you, in this job, I'm not looking for Mark Perkins. I'm looking for Mark Perkins 2.0. I need the next best version. I need the future leader, not yesterday's leader. How do you build that plan? you listen to the company or is it your job to dig in deep and say, see what they need. They really try to attach their strategy to what they're trying to accomplish. And our firm does a lot of work on strategy and org design as well as executive search. So we really bring in our consulting side of the business to look at where are you trying to go? Because the person that got you to where you are today is usually not the person that's going to get you to that next place.

27:37 So we call it modern leadership behaviors. And what is the behavior of the modern leader that's going to get you where you say you want to go with your plans in your 18 months to five years? And I think we live in such a disruptive, people have been saying this for a dozen years, but we live in such a disrupted and distributed uh world. You have to figure out how to be present all the time, everywhere, and just manage through disruption. And those are pretty serious skill sets to manage a company through. What do you think happened? There's a real world example of, um, an entrepreneur starting a company, moving out an outside EWEE CEO coming in and that not working. So it's in the book.

28:17 It's about Steve jobs. Is this a book study in your field about when they brought in John Scully from Pepsi and then that didn't work out the way they wanted it to. And they went back and got Steve and he turned the company and maybe it's different that you see it, but if you all done a book study on this in your field, done, and I don't know anybody in my company that's done a book study, but I think he needed to be, he needed to be gone to come back the way he did. So it wasn't wrong. I don't think it was wrong. I don't think he would be, ultimately been the leader he was at the time he was needed to be, you know, the Steve Jobs that he was if he didn't have that time away. needed some humbling. Yeah, I think his perspective changed.

28:59 He came in and looked at things differently. Yeah, from the Pixar stuff and next computers and all that. Yeah. I think it's, it tough being inside the bubble and seeing the fixed? Um, no, it's interesting. It's like watching a new movie every day because I have so many different clients and they have different issues and different problems. And sometimes I'm working on a commercial role or operations. Sometimes it's a P and L leader or CEO. It's actually, it's like, you never know what the movie is going to be. And when I interview a candidate, it's always like, I don't know their story. I mean, I might know because sometimes they're well-known leaders, but it's like, it's like a new movie every day. And it's fun to be inside of companies and and some of them are well-known brands, then you're like, it's not like I expected from the outside as a consumer of that particular brand.

29:42 So it's fun. It's, it's, yeah. have a whole podcast about culture and what that means, but we can't get into that subject because that'll get wild and crazy. um do you help companies with strategy? Do you help them evaluate internal candidates to promote them as well? Is that a part of this search? Yeah, almost always when I start a search, there's an internal candidate that they want to be considered or the candidate themselves want to be considered. And we put them through the exact same process. And there are times that we recommend the internal. But what our clients look for us to do is to help them make a good evaluation of what's out in the market compared to what we have. And yes, they're spending money for it, but they're much more confident in their decision. We have psychometrics that we use. have executive coaches that walk through the psychometrics.

30:24 So it's not a subjective interview. There's psychometrics. And then we have 100 days of integration coaching for that placed executive, whether they're internal, placed in the new job or external. So we try to mitigate risk and help make sure they get the very best person. And if it's an internal, we're happy to say you've got great talent. Do you wait? that person get weighted a little bit differently that they've already been inside the company and culture? No. But we try not to because to us it's another candidate. We don't know them, we didn't know them beforehand. So it doesn't for us. I think for our clients, if it's all things being equal, rather go with somebody who knows your company and your culture and you've seen results from. I mean, it's always less risky because you're starting a new company and probably a bigger job and a new culture, new bosses, it's just higher risk when you're external.

31:08 But if you're internal, you're not ready, if you're not wow, then your peers are going to be like, how did she get that job? When you see somebody get promoted internally, there's a couple of really big top 50 companies here in the Cincinnati marketplace, right? There's a Kroger, there's a P &G, GE Aviation has a, what you see is, you know, the business courier comes out and they announced somebody ascended to the CEO spot. There's always the other C-suite people always leave. Well, sometimes the other C-suite people leave because the new leader brought their own folks. And this happens a lot with CEOs like their own CFO, their own CHRO, maybe their general counsel. There's a big company up in Milwaukee that in the last six months, new CEO came in and some of the fantastic people on the leadership team left or were exited because that individual wanted the team that he knew he had succeeded with at the last company and he knew he could rock with them again.

32:02 So what's the message for those C-suite people that still have a significant talent that didn't fit into what that new CEO's vision is? What's your message for them? Well, there's one person in particular with a CHRO that I think is fantastic. And you just have to look at everything as like, there must be something better for me. Like what's next? And who's the CEO that you've worked with in the past around different companies that you need to call and say, they know how good you are. And then call people like me and see what I'm working on. There's an opportunity in everything. There's a lesson in everything. All right, so one final question here. It's been a great conversation, but one question before we let you highlight where people find you and buy the books and all that stuff. Have you personally learned more from good leaders and good managers or ones that weren't so good?

32:50 Both. You know it's both. It's both. It's more pleasant with the great ones that you can model after, but it's equally as impactful of what you don't want to do and what you... It just spotlights, where's the stain on the shirt? Let's not let that happen again. So it is absolutely both. So when both show up, value them both. value them and just don't model the latter. Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. because I value anything that I can learn from Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. you know, if God thinks he can trust me with big problems, I try to remind myself that there's, you grow muscle when things are tough, right?

33:33 And what muscle am I exercising that I needed to exercise in the tough times? All right. So what do you tell these? then after you transition into how we find you and where to get the book, but all these, um, students that you're so passionate at the university of Georgia, because you love the university and the campus, what do you tell them? They're coming out of college 22, 23 years old and they look at you and I remember being 22 or 23. We look at these leaders and we put them on pedestals and we're like one day, what do you, what do you tell them about this journey and maybe advice or perspective? What's the best. that you've found that you can offer them. Well, I tell them not to take their education for granted. And I tell them from day one, start giving.

34:16 Day one, start giving. The Terry Business College, it's called 10 for Terry. You can give $10 a month, 10 for Terry. And we encourage the graduates to do that from the day they graduate. That's a cup of coffee these days. And if you learn the habit of being a giver early, you don't wait till you make seven figures to give 100,000, right? So be a giver, and be a giver of your time. Give back to the institution. Just, you know, so be proud to earn well so you can return well. I mean, it's just my learning, earning, and returning story for them. And they're so ambitious and they go on to do great things. When I was getting out of school, there weren't people becoming entrepreneurs in their 20s and 30s. There are now. So I'm not sure they need much encouragement from me.

34:57 These young folks are doing big things sooner than we ever did. So where do we come find everything about you? How do we engage with you? Where do we buy the book? Where do you get hired to come and speak? Thank you. I have a website, which is my full name. So Mary Elizabeth Saad with sadd.com. You can find all of it there. There's a link to my book, but it's on Amazon. um This one's a little bit beat up, it's, it's, see, I like flowers. Yes you do. You like glossy things and flowers. I like glossy things and flowers. got me all figured out here, So yes, marylisbethsad.com and you'll find everything there. um I work for Modern Executive Solutions in my day job and modernexecutivesolutions.com is the website for the firm and you can find all the cool stuff we do with consulting and search.

35:41 Thank you for joining us. I hope the sun is shining in Georgia today. It is beautiful in Georgia. Thank you. hope it's the same in Cincinnati. I hope tomorrow the trip down to see your sister, I hope that goes well. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for coming on.