#151 - Thriving on Chaos: How Columbus Brewing Co. Built a Lasting Craft Beer Brand | Eric Bean

0:00 I thrive on chaos, which is why I need smart people around me. It's why my wife is very important in this because I don't think she thrives in chaos. She functions through it, figures out how to solve the problems. I'm the one that's, you know, let's put this stick in the spokes and see what happens. All right, you all welcome back to the necessary entrepreneur. today's going to be a fun one because the 10 or 15 minutes of pre-show from the conversation I had here with Eric Bean was just awesome.

0:47 And yes, we talked about the beard. We talked about him just starting to get healthy and losing some weight but I'm pumped to talk about all things brewery in the state of Ohio, Columbus, him traveling all over the country and him thinking he's a cool guy. So we're going to give a little short intro here and then we'll get we'll get rolling. So today we're joined by Eric Bean. He's the co-owner along with his wife and brew master of Columbus Brewing Company. Alongside his wife, Beth, Eric has helped grow CBC into a cornerstone of Ohio's craft beer scene. Known for award-winning brews like Bodie and Creeper, Eric shares how they balance innovation with tradition, scale a legacy brand, and build a brewery that's as much about community as it is about great beer.

1:31 Welcome to the party, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So, we're going to talk a lot of things about beer, but, we use the words, but that this brewery is as much about community as it is as great beer. is that true? I'd certainly like to think so. My wife and I, we love this city. We choose to live here. Neither one of us are originally from here. We didn't go to Ohio State, so we both chose to live here. We love it. And when I think about beer, we really have approached this from day one. My first brewing gig was under the tutelage of a German brewmaster, and I always think about beer from that sense. Small breweries in the community...

2:12 there's just a cornerstone of each city. When you go to a small city in Germany, you know, there's a bakery and there's a brewery and getting in there and sitting down and having beers. That's just, that's the way we think about, you know, our brand. How do we bring people together? So what else if you look at it through the sense of that German brewer you learned after him? Other than the community piece, do you think there was a unique experience versus the vast array of all the breweries that have happened over the past decade? Was there something you learned different under him? Well, you know, I mean, when I look back at that experience and it was just, you know, just happened into that brewery that day and got a job. And I think one of things he came to me, I mean, he told me this is, you know, back in the mid nineties, he said, Hey, look, this country beer is going to take off.

2:59 And he's like, there's some really good brewers, but nobody's trained. And, you know, in Germany, you're going to school, you're getting certification. He's like, you really should go to brewing school. And so that's. That's what motivated me. ended up going to UC Davis for their master brewers program based on that job. So I spent two years really learning about quality and the history and the art of making beer. And then went to UC Davis to really sort of hammer down on that knowledge. Hmm. Did you think that you were going to be an entrepreneur? Could you have foreseen 10 years later? yeah, no, mean that goes back, I think it's genetic. My dad was a corporate guy, but my grandfather, my uncle were independent businessmen and that's all my dad wanted to do.

3:47 he was doing well and it was kind of one of those things. When I look at entrepreneurs, like, man, the worst thing you can do is start making six figures because you can't take the risk. I was fortunate and was dumb enough, got a liberal arts degree. Making money was never on my path. So you can take those risks. So that was always, I loved beer and I was like, wow, can I, how do I do this? What's the dissemination between the entrepreneurial world that we live in? You had your brewing beer, but you're running the business. And if we sat and talked about what percentage you were running the business versus getting to brew the beer now, I'm sure it's weighted tremendously. Even though you're a brewmaster, I bet your mind has probably weighted a ton on operating and running the business.

4:28 if, tell me I'm wrong, if I am. Oh no, I I would say, you know, eight years ago, I was 80 % beer, 20 % running the business. And, you know, that wasn't successful. That was, I don't know if you're familiar with the E-Myth, but I was that entrepreneur of, I created myself a job. And I think over the last, you know, it's been a progression, but over that last eight to nine years, it's been, I'm probably 5 % in the brewery. If that, mean, you know, our director of brewing operations and our director of innovation probably both laugh at that 5 % and say it's maybe half a percent, but it's good.

5:10 I trust them. So it's not, that's not an issue, which is the key to running the business is having people you trust. So if we talk about feelings, it's tough to run business with feelings. But how does Eric truly feel about that now? Because that's not in line with what people say, find your passion and the rest will take care of itself. How should the operate in only doing a few percent of the brewery thing, the reason why the passion started? I'm good with it. I've found a real passion for, I love being around people. I love going to meetings, having conversations and having that more philosophical standpoint. I think that goes back to the way my brain's always. I love, I'm curious, I want to grow. I know beer.

5:51 I still want to be involved in it. I still ask questions, but I like learning about finance, learning about marketing, talking about sales. running our restaurants. I shouldn't say be running it because that's far from it. working with our, well, yeah, our VP of hospitality, I enjoy working with her and making sure everything's running smoothly. I mean, our executive team is awesome to work with. That's the difference. back to when was, you know, when was I miserable? like, you know, my joke is always just in the dark closet with a bottle of whiskey crying. When did that end? It's when we built this executive team out. Did you know how to do that?

6:32 Oh God no. mean, you know, through a lot of trial, a lot of tribulation, a lot of pain, we made some choices. mean, my wife and I, I mean, I, you know, kind of goes back to one day where it was like, oh, we got to do something and things just fell into place. We, you know, reached out to a financial consultant and we had an attorney friend who, I mean, who'd been our attorney first, but became a friend, reached out to her and it was like, okay. And we kind of, you know, I don't want to say we wrote out the blueprint, we started that blueprint that took us about a year and a half to really develop. uh you running the business before that happened when you said some things have to change here?

7:16 15, 16 years. mean, COVID was really hard on our operation. I mean, like every other business. I think we, when I look back at it, it's like, okay, I don't regret the choices we made, but they did some harm. And we definitely segregated our business units out, kept people separated. And that created some tension inside the company. felt, we created silos instead of silos being created. And... So coming out of that, we had a lot of damage control to do and I think we're getting there. It feels really good now. What's the business left? Because you did all that with the best of intentions. It's funny out here in this world, they say the road to hell is paved with great intentions.

8:00 But it's like we were following what the world's rules were, whether we had to or not, whether it became political, all this stuff. But what do we take away from business of saying, those decisions that were made when we thought we were making the right decisions, how do we look back? And how have you grown from it? How do you think? you'd make not just approach those decisions, but how do you think you approach big decisions like that differently now? Have you all reflected about that? Yeah, and I mean, it's a tough one because we put people first. And in hindsight, that may not have I think it was the right decision, but it came with consequences. And, you know, I mean, it was draining.

8:42 I was daily telling everybody, everybody, it's going to be OK. We kept everybody on payroll. We even moved. We even moved people from our taproom, tried to hold on to them. And it was really tough. and we weren't communicating as well. I think now the communication that we have in the company, we could have moved a lot faster. We were working kind of blindly and we didn't have all the financial sophistication that we needed at the time. Boy, isn't that funny that the toughest parts of our business and entrepreneurship, if you fight through it and don't wave the white flag and you fight and you force your way through it, you look back, we learn tremendous lessons that make us so much better.

9:24 But in the moment, it feels like it's ending. Yeah, no, that's why I think, you know, I mean, I think about this all the time. I was raised, you know, my parents were both just incredible people, really smart, hardworking. I didn't know that you didn't have to go to college. I didn't know that you didn't have to work, you know, 80 hours a week. Those were all things that I watched them sacrifice and do. And I just look back and I go, well, yeah, those are lessons. That's how you run a business. And when I look at business, I look at people starting business, they're like lifestyle. Oh, I'm, know, I'm going to put in 30 hours. I'm gonna, it's like, yeah, that's gonna fail. And when people- So we know it and all the business owners that have been in business for five to 10 years know it.

10:05 But if we're helping, because I want to help this next generation. I mean, if we could like ease everyone's pain a little bit, because if there would have been someone that could have eased my pain, not to say don't do it, right? Not to say it's not worth it, but if they could have eased my pain, man, that sure would have been a little bit better. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I, you know, I don't know about for you, but looking back, how many pieces of advice did you get over the last 10, 15 years that you're like, it took me, if I would have listened to that 15 years ago or that's what they meant. Shit. I couldn't turn that corner faster. Do you think that's just who we are because we're just, is that why we're entrepreneurs as well? Is that why all these people start businesses?

10:46 Because we haven't listened to what the world's told us. And so it just comes with the territory. Yeah, I don't know, but I was told early in my career that I better work for myself because I wasn't very good working with other people. Do believe that about yourself now? Back then. yeah. No, I was a pain in the ass. Yeah, no, I mean, was, you know, that's that's why I laugh when I have a difficult employee who's, know, who's struggling and pushing my, know, trying to push buttons. I just laugh and go, yeah, no, I get it. I've been there. I know you're testing me and. when you actually call that out, I mean, it changes the relationship with that employee. Yeah, no, I think, mean, you it's so hard to have really brutally honest conversations and I'm not going to tell you I have them every time, but every time you do, go, wow, so much easier.

11:31 You know, mean, holding people accountable, that's all we all want. If we know where our boundaries are, it's easy to work with them. Why are the brutal tough conversations, the honest ones, why are those tough? The brutal honest conversations, why are they so tough? think we're, you we're all wired for sensitivity. I mean, I'm a, you know, like I want to please people. I like people. I want them to like me. And I think it makes it tough because you start overthinking what's, what's this going to mean? Are they going to quit? Are they, are they going to start talking about me behind my back? And none of those matter. mean, if it, if the brutal truth makes somebody quit, that's a good thing. And yeah, you know, I mean, not that I want to invite that, but that means they weren't, it wasn't the right fit.

12:13 doesn't make them bad people. I think that's a That's another key message that we've learned over the years. Like, hey, look, it's all about fit and, you know, like community, can we build trust with each other? And that's the hardest part. Once you trust somebody, you can say anything you want. Do you have a metric for building that trust? Or is it all fear? Yeah, no, no, it's all film and think it's a like, you when you just know it's there just one day, it's just like, yeah, that, you know, I I think that's how I measure it. It's like, you just kind of laugh and go, I can't believe we just said that to each other. And everybody was okay. And you're like, all right, let's go. Yeah, right, you know, or you can have some tension in a meeting and you walk out of the meeting and you go, you you're laughing in the break room.

12:59 It's like, yeah, okay, good. This is how it's supposed to be. Like we're supposed to have tension. Mm-hmm. Back to, I want to talk about the experience with your dad being very successful professionally and then your grandpa being an entrepreneur. But one more before we move beyond that, this piece, we talked about COVID. I'm assuming you still had to go in, we didn't talk about this. Yeah. I'm assuming you still had to go in every day. No, so I didn't. that's, that's, don't. So, I mean, I have an additional piece. My wife had, had just finished chemo about four months prior to that. She went through a breast cancer treatment and everything's good now.

13:39 But so we were, we went into lockdown. mean, her oncologist said, Hey, look, you're saying you're in a good place, I, you know, I'm not recommending anybody to get COVID, but you're probably at the top of the list of people I don't want to see. So we went into really strict lockdown in our house and you know, we had our operations manager at the brewery. So there it is. Yeah. Someone still had to go in. That's the point, right? But if she wouldn't have been going through chemo, you all would have been the ones. Oh yeah, no, I mean, I think, you I don't regret it because I, mean, you that was too important in my life, but same time, it's like, that was probably some of the stress that was added was that, you know, that disconnect because we, we were, we are asking people to come in every day, work in not close proximity, but in proximity of each other.

14:32 And it's kind of what message is that that like, the office people aren't, but we need you too. But our, Our logic was that we're trying to have as few people in the building as possible. Yeah. Isn't that a part, like it's not even the message about COVID. The reason why I tie this in, isn't that just the truth about entrepreneurship and running a business? No matter what's going on, someone has to show up. Yeah, no, somebody's gotta be there. I that's where you have to that trusting relationship. you know, I mean, my phone doesn't turn off. I, you know, I rarely, you know, everybody knows they can get ahold of me. I'm on vacation. I'm trying to learn how to do that. I'm not doing AO. It's like, what's the balance?

15:15 But I think, you know, we've all gotten better organization. It's like, hey, there is the bad phone, but otherwise don't use it. Yeah. So why is all this worth? Why is it worth it then? I could speak on this for an hour, but this is my podcast to highlight what you guys are doing to talk about you. But so why is it worth it for you and your wife and you and your wife? Why is it worth it to do this then on the vacations that aren't vacations, the bat phone, even though you've gotten better, I still know that seven days a week, there's not a day that there aren't multiple moments that your business is not on your mind. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a blast. mean, like, you know, I mean, it's, it's that like balance between this is the greatest thing and the worst decision you've ever made.

15:55 And you got to, you got to go with the good, right? I mean, I could sit and mope and, know, and I have those days. not, you know, let's not pretend like it's all, you know, it's all just some exactly, but you know, it's fun. mean, you see people and then know that we've got over 90 employees and like over the time, like We've got families and we have employees with kids going to college. It's exciting. certainly we've had some rewards. I don't want to discount that, but I could be making a good living working for somebody else, but I find a lot of reward in these pieces of growing the company. Yeah. Isn't that the thing to find, find the thing daily, whether we're an employee, whether we run the business, that you find something that's rewarding every day.

16:42 think this passion's overused because there's multiple times throughout my day, passion be gone. It's terrible. so, but find something rewarding. know that if I personally get to the end of the day, and even though was a bad day and things didn't start out the right way, that I kept it together, that we move some stuff forward, that you helped accomplish the thing that's rewarding at the end of a really tough day. Yeah, no, I mean, that's just it. It's exciting. It feels good. It's rewarding. You're having a blast and then you're having a miserable time. But the ultimate piece of it is it feels good. I I think that's the hard part. That's what you got to fight through in the early stages is like, it's exhausting. There's no financial return.

17:22 There's no nothing. There's just people asking for more of you. it's like, how much is there's nothing left to give. But then you get past that point. and you find out there's more to give. Yeah, well, there's more to give, but it's different. right? mean, because early on it was physical. mean, I was spending seven days a week, 12 hours a day in the brewery and then kind of going home and, you know, having to think about how we're going to pay this bill or, you know, we still joke all the time about 10, 15 years ago, we would literally put two pallets of bottles on a truck to make payroll. I would load up the truck and drive them to our wholesaler and be like, could I get a check? I need to get in the bank so we can make payroll tomorrow.

18:06 Isn't it so satisfying? We smile and laugh about how do we do it, but isn't it really satisfying to look back on that? yeah, no, I mean, you know, there's some romantic side of how much fun that was. It wasn't at all, but the fact that you can look back and put a twist to it tells you it's fun. know, it is, it's satisfying. feels, you know, there's a sense of accomplishment. I think that's the key to being an entrepreneur is like, how do you find that satisfaction in the small baby steps forward? I mean, you know, sure, the guy who... you know, started a business and got to 10 or $20 million revenue in year one. Those are, those are rare things. That's not real.

18:46 mean, The reason why it's not real, you said it, it's a unicorn. And if that's what you're planning on when you start a business, you're going have a lot of disappointment. Yeah, no, especially I mean, if you're not in tech, that's not going to happen. Yeah. not doing AI of beer now? Come on, Eric. no, no, I wish. mean, those margins look really good. tell you. So why why are you guys so good at brewing? Why is the Columbus Brewing Come? Why are you so good? What's I mean that has been, I mean back to day one, you my training with German brew master going to UC Davis. I spent five years with Gordon Beers, the brewery restaurant group and just was beaten into me more or less quality is number one thing.

19:29 And that's what we've, that's what we've hung our hat on from day one is quality. We didn't grow as fast because we wanted to maintain. We, when we, couldn't make beer with, we couldn't control everything inside the beer that we wanted to. I didn't want a wider distribution. knew we could at least control that piece. now we're statewide. We have the technology that we could, I feel comfortable we could send beer all over the country, but we've chosen to just keep our beer within the state of Ohio, maintain those quality regimens, over-invested in brew house, canning technology, laboratory and people. the there's something special about not getting too big.

20:12 don't know what that boundary is yet as an entrepreneur but do you think are you going to be satisfied for your entire career you and your wives you live it out whatever that career looks like are you going to be satisfied to continue because I saw your laboratory online. I bet there's only a few brewers that are the size of you and even when you started the laboratory that are investing that much in that type of science. I don't think that probably happens a ton. Yeah, I I think, you know, we're probably we're ahead of our size. mean, you know, there's there's other breweries in the state of Ohio that have as good, if not better, but they're larger operations than us. I mean, you know, I joke all the time that my tombstone or just say he tried.

20:56 And that's you know, that that'll be that'll be satisfying. It's like we are working hard. I've invested, you know, over the years into this stuff. We make incredible beer and proud of our team. And we're growing still in a really tough beer market. And I think the reason is, is, you know, we're invested on our sales and marketing, but we're not overly invested there. We're probably overly invested on the quality of our beer. That can never be wrong, right? That's never wrong. No, no, no, exactly. And I think and you know, it's like, well, that and that's that's driving our success, you know. When tough shows up, that's how you win. Quality is how you win.

21:36 Yeah, no, I mean, you we had to do this years ago. We went through this big survey process and the person who ran the survey said, I don't know if I've ever seen customer feedback like this. Like your brand resonates with trust. Your consumer trusts you. that was like the most satisfying feedback is they know when they pick up one of our products, it's going to be a high quality product. And so I can always smile and say, hey, I don't like that. It's like, Okay, I appreciate that. It's not, it's, have worked for other breweries where it's like, yeah, I know it's not very good. That's not our issue. You don't like it. You don't like beer. You don't like that style of beer. You know, it's, it's not a personal attack that we didn't do something right.

22:20 How do you know when you should make a change when you get that type of advice or when you get that feedback? How do we know? I mean, to me, it's a gut check. It's like, well, did that hurt just because it's ego or did that hurt because it's true? I mean, that's how I look at it. like, you know, I mean, if somebody calls you ugly, it's like, oh, okay, we'll look in the mirror like, yeah, no, they're right, I'm ugly. So it just hurts because it's true. does it feel worse to have someone say your beer doesn't taste good than to say you're ugly? definitely. Yeah, don't mean my appearance is not. I mean, you look at me. Do I look like I'm too tied to my appearance? you know, the beer, the beer quality is I mean, that's that is, you know, it's it's all about pride.

23:05 So you said the beer industry right now is tough. Yeah. What's Eric and Columbus Brewing do when it's tough? We talked about quality. What else do you, what did you learn to do when things get tough? Well, I mean, think we just, you know, it's just double down on what we do. think, you know, I mean, you know, are we pivoting? Yeah. I mean, you know, we're looking at our portfolio, looking at costs. mean, you know, our CFO has been with us for the last three and a half years. Really, you know, really turned us upside down in a great way. I mean, just absolutely digging under everything, looking at every single input and asking, is it necessary? Is this the best price? So that has helped us, you know, significantly.

23:49 our debt load, cause that's, that is the hardest part about beer industry. When I look at other industries, I'm like, wow, that'd be so nice. You know, you look at a consultant, like you got some laptops, we've got millions and millions of dollars worth of stainless steel in our brewery. It's expensive and growth is expensive. So it's gotta be done right. And you know, the whole industry, that's, there's so much excess capacity in the industry because everybody, it was all blue sky and Come 2021, 2022, all of a sudden that blue sky started getting a little more gray. And we've been successful. 23 was the only down year that we've had since we bought the brewery 20 years ago.

24:31 Last two have been tougher, but we've been growing. What, uh, what'd you have to learn new in 23 when you hadn't been through that type of year? What'd you have to learn looking back? You're like, Oh, I needed to learn that lesson other than flipping over the rocks and saving 10 bucks and the CFO. What'd you really have to learn? I think we had to learn to, you know what mean? You gotta stick to your guns. You can't over commit on things. And I think that was, you we kind of bet on this big growth and we overspent on that. And we opened a restaurant. And what did I learn in opening a restaurant? It's as bad as everybody tells you it is.

25:11 There's nobody hiding behind that. I listened to your interview with Chuck from Dewey's Pizza and I'm like, man, he sure makes it sound rosy and they got it dialed in, you know, it's, is, it is a tough, tough grind and the margins, you know, aren't great. And we had built the whole thing. Our LOI was pre COVID. Our construction doubled. We didn't, you know, we didn't account for that. And It hurts every month when you make those payments, that debt schedules. The old debt schedule would have been a lot sexier. wouldn't it have been? Yeah. Yeah. Every time you spend a hundred grand on something, don't you think about like, man, we could have done that with a hundred grand instead of just giving it to this thing.

25:58 yeah. Mine does it. Yeah, no, I mean, that's my thing all the time. Like, what do mean we have to do this? That's, know, it's, I, I look back, I've made some really expensive mistakes, but it's also why I'm in it. I, know, and I tell our team all the time, I'll make that decision if you need me to, cause I'm not afraid to fail. Like I know I won't make the right one. It's all about pivot. Like I have made, I've made seven figure mistakes and you just, you, you guess what? You've got to figure out how pay for it. That's what you do. Yeah. Do you think all these books you noted the E-Myth, do you think all these books and all the other podcasts in the world, are those helping us level up so we stay away from those seven figure mistakes? Cause I made one and boy, they hurt.

26:39 They hurt because what I look back on, I'm like, why didn't I see that? Why didn't I? I'm so smart and I'm building and running this business and we've been this successful. The rest of the world just bows down and says, look what they're doing. And it's like, well, I wasn't good enough to see that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. You know, that's a that's a really good question. I mean, I think back to like growing up, my dad had on a shelf and I mean, a dusty shelf. I don't think he ever read it. But the pursuit of excellence, I think it's Tom Peters. Is that right? like that was about the only book you had out there to help you, you know, get through get through your business career. And then, you know, I think it was seven seven habits. highly successful people.

27:21 yeah, you know, I mean that's I kind of feel like that's probably when it kicked off in the 90s and I'm old enough to go, you know, this is all brand new. I mean, if you're if you're under 30, you think this is always all this information has been readily available, but it's all brand new. And I mean, I love it. I know, I grew up I grew up with encyclopedias. I used to I was that nerd who sat my mom had the encyclopedias that she bought when she was in nursing school. And I sat as a kid and read them. And now I'm like, Then it became Wikipedia, now I'm like with AI, I'm like, you're telling me I can literally put any question I have in my head and it'll answer it? You've been waiting for this for 52 years. Yeah, no. Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's an ongoing joke in the company of like, why no, Eric's gonna Google it, figure it out.

28:06 It's isn't that funny? That must be your brand inside the company, what you just said. And that's a hell of a brand to be because that's a guy that figures it out. Man, how valuable is that? Yeah, no, it's I mean, I'm surrounded by a lot of other people who are going to do that. And I think that's that's we're going to credit. I'm interrupting because you're going to them credit. if you're known for that and that's your brand, it's like, man, that's that is the unlock. Yeah, it certainly has helped. I don't really know how to quit. don't know how to do those things, because I should have. I mean, when I look back, I should have probably quit. I kind of, you it's like, you hear the stories that people probably not, you know, they graduated from college because they didn't want to call their dad and tell them that they were wasting their money.

28:51 certainly had that story. The same thing, my dad loaned me some money to get, when we bought the business, was like, okay, I'm not going to Thanksgiving dinner and going to tell him that. where, know, hey, that money you gave me, you're never gonna see a dime of it. Yeah. So, you know, I had those reasons not to quit. Now it just, it's like, you know, you just, it's what you do every day. You just, you do the grind, you figure it out. And, and I think it's, mean, you know, back to giving everybody credit, I didn't even know I needed it. And when I see it, when I get it, it's like, my God, how much easier is my life? Like, you know, I get a text a couple of Sundays ago and they weren't requesting my French toast recipe.

29:32 It was to inform me of some bad news. It was like, okay, cool. What are we doing? They ran it down. I'm like, awesome. I'll talk to you tomorrow. And what a relief that is instead of like spending my entire day pacing going, well, this is it. This is how we go bankrupt. This is the, you know, this is the day. What do you think your job, my job, our job as leaders, which it's whoever the leader is, whether it's a coach of a team, you're operating and running the business, but the one at the end of the day, the buck stops there. Who, what do you think it's your responsibility in that role? I'd like to think it's just, you know, it's as simple as inspiration.

30:14 It's not, but I mean, I think, you know, it's like, why does the business fail as soon as, you know, and I mean, our team knows if I'm having a bad day, I, you know, I don't hide it real well. don't, you know, I mean, it's not terrible, but it's not real well. But like on a day-to-day thing, kind of like just perseverance and inspiration is what drives, I think, the whole company forward. I would imagine it's in most companies, you know, when the leader... When the lady buries his head, what else do you have left? Yeah, usually nothing. Yeah, no, that's when, you know, and unfortunately, that's when companies really struggle because who leaves first? Your good employees who could have helped you bail out.

30:55 Mm-hmm. I bet you've had to learn that hard lesson. Yeah, no, I'm, you know, plenty of lessons, you know, it's, it's been tough hiring, hiring good people and holding onto them is really tough. And, know, we, we have, we've, we've sort of run the gamut of them. We've, we've had a lot of good employees have gone on to other jobs and it's exciting. You know, it's, I, and I, I truly mean it. It's tough to see somebody leave, but it's like, our job is to help somebody get better at their job. and for us to create an opportunity for them to stay. And if not, she goes somewhere else. that's, I, you know, probably 10 years ago, I had an employee who he was out on paternity leave and I called him.

31:40 said, this is going to be the strangest thing, but I have an opportunity for you. I don't see you moving up in the next year or two. I, somebody called me and they're looking for a brewer, you know, are you cool if I throw your name in the hat? And he's like, are you firing me? I'm like, absolutely not. I, I think this could be a significant amount of money for you." And he took it and he's since opened another brewery. And it's like, that's awesome. I don't know. can't speak for him. He at least will answer my calls. I can speak for him because I think this is what I've realized in life. We all know, we know the truth.

32:21 We know. He knows that by you making that call, that was a defining moment in his life. Yeah, no, I mean, I'd like to think that, you know, but I didn't do it. You certainly I think that's the, you know, that's the key to it, right? I mean, you're not doing it because you want somebody to remember you're doing because it's just the right thing. just, you do it and you figure out and you pivot and you move on. And he, you know, I don't know if that hadn't happened, he'd still be with us, but it, you know, I'm sure it was a pivot, a big pivot in his career. And, you know, and we had to pivot too. What's it feel like? It's funny, I named my real estate company that, right? It's funny. But 17 years ago, what's it mean even with that word?

33:04 That's become popular. And I named my company that. Everybody's like, what is that word? I'm like, I think the industry needs to be different. It needs to be 180 degrees, completely different from the way it's operating. But how tough is that when you're in the midst of, it was easy for me to start a company and say that. But how hard is it when you own the thing and you're in the midst of it and you're faced with like, this isn't working. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like it to be harder, but I thrive on chaos, which is why I need smart people around me. It's why my wife is very important in this because she, I don't think she thrives in chaos. She functions through it, figures out how to solve the problems.

33:45 I like to stir the pot and she can help kind of keep things and keep things orderly and kind of sweep up. So that's not really, that's probably not the best way to describe it, but you know, it's keeping things together. Because I'm not afraid, I'm the one that's, know, let's put this stick in the spokes and see what happens. Yeah, that what, is, what is thriving in chaos? What's that mean? Let's help all the 90 employees of your company that you're not having to look at them so they can just listen to this little snippet is what is Eric, what is it thriving in chaos? What is that? Well, it's just solve it. I mean, it's just like, OK, we got to do this quick. Let's solve problems. I you know, it's like when you create that chaos, you got to quickly figure out how to solve.

34:27 It's like, you know, it's like you jump in a big, deep pond of water. got to you got two choices. Figure out how to get out of it. Are you drowned? And I, you know, I don't like I'm not sure being my my world of chaos is something I should take pride in, but it's just my it's kind of my reality. Is it because you just jump in? Is that what causes the chaos? You're just like full steam ahead. Let's go. We'll figure it out. I can be. I think I can, I'm still fairly cautious with it, but I will get there, you know? So it's, I'm not necessarily head first, but I am going to jump in. I'm going to think about it. And I, and maybe that's a little bit of the differences. Like other people see it as chaos. And I've, I've spent the last three mornings at 3am working through this and I'm like, okay, I haven't, I can't see where this goes, but I can see it's going somewhere.

35:14 Let's try it. and that you're confident that we'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's the, I mean, think that's the difference maker of like, know, forget job title. Like what is an executive do? Executive figures it out. Like, you know, that's the difference maker between, I mean, that's probably more of like difference between a manager and a leader. A leader helps people figure out how to get there. Hmm. Hmm. What's your guys approach to developing talent, developing employees versus finding somebody talented from the outside? That's, we've done both and both, you know, we've, we've failed at both and been successful at both.

35:56 I think one of the things we found, you know, on the brewing process, we found that like bringing people in from the outside can create a little more tension than we want because we have a very defined process. It's, know, we we've worked hard on it. We've had people have built all of our processes to be able to make our product exactly the same every time. And so, you know, that is, we've learned it just, we're better off kind of, you know, not always, but for most roles, entry level roles, let's just bring in somebody fresh and green. So, you know, I think we've learned that we try and train people best we can get them education. So I think that works internally, you know, a more leadership, I think that's an ongoing thing.

36:41 mean, you know, we have had to learn this stuff on the fly very quickly. And I mean, back to the career, the word leadership has always been used, but you didn't use leadership in a business setting 10 plus years ago. It's very a new thing of talking about that what that means. And I think we're learning how to do that, how to train people. I come from... I come from a bad line of having to learn it on your own, so I'm not a great teacher on that. It's like, hey, here's a book. See if it helps you. Isn't it kind of solve problems and treat people well?

37:23 Yeah, no, mean, it is. mean, think that's, you know, that is like, I, I'd like to think we treat people well. I, know, I know, you know, there's a reality and I, you know, it's always, it's tough on this because I, you know, there, there are people who do these interviews and they talk about and they paint everything's perfect. I make mistakes every day. I have regrets in conversations. I try and apologize, but some, sometimes they're so egregious, like, Hey, I can't even apologize for that. Like, yeah, there's a few. Yeah, there's a few out there. You throw my name out there. There's a few that they're like that guy. Yeah. That guy. No, got, you got me on my bad day. I didn't know I did the best I could and it wasn't good enough then. Yeah, I was at an event a couple, it's probably been eight years ago, but I was at an event and the guy was volunteering at our table and I made a comment.

38:13 I was like, you the asshole of our company, the asshole owner of our company doesn't let me do stuff like this normally. And he goes, yeah, I've heard he's an asshole. And I go, it's true. It's absolutely true. And then he found out later who I was and you know, he's apologizing. I'm like, no, it's okay. Like I mean. Whoever told you that had that experience with me? I'm not necessarily proud. I don't take glory in having that reputation, but I can definitely rub some people the wrong way. And that's just life. I think the caring part is every time something like that happens, I don't necessarily believe them in their opinion, but I do bring it in to evaluate it.

38:54 That's where I'm better at now. Yeah, no, I think that's good way put it. mean, you know, just like any, when you have a retrospective, you you think back on a conversation like, I should have said that differently. I know my point was valid, but you know, if I had said that differently, we could have ended the conversation there. We all could have moved on instead of, you know, ending in tears. Instead of the guy at the table's like, yeah, I he's an asshole. Yeah, exactly. Um, what, um, your dad was really successful when it's so, it's so ironic that this came full circle and we'll jump off here in a few minutes. Cause I want you to come down from Columbus and come in the studio and we'll talk about all the things.

39:34 Cause you know, beards are valued here. I don't have one, but they're valued when they come through here. Um, it's so funny that your grandpa and people, you knew your uncles were entrepreneurs. Then your dad probably made six figures. So he made too much to leave the golden handcuffs. even though it probably wasn't the most satisfying career, but when you went to start the business, he lent you money. Yeah. With that whole cycle. That's how, mean, like creating opportunity. And that's what my dad did for me. mean, it's like, I was scrapping trying to figure out how to do this. he always said he would help me, but I had like, I mean, this opportunity came up kind of overnight and it was like, he got there and helped me out.

40:19 And we figure out how to jump into this business. and had great partners who, mean, we initially bought 40 % of the business. kind of, I had that like, incredible opportunity that, you know, is more or less the American dream, right? I mean, how do you get into business? I mean, sure, sure there's people that absolutely bootstrap it, take their, you know, their paper out to their, to the lawn mowing business, to, you know, maybe becoming a bartender to owning the bar. But. how do you really get by? Somebody's got to help you along the way. And I was very fortunate that, you know, my parents from the get-go, they helped me. We lived in a, you know, pretty conservative yet.

41:03 My parents were like, go do what you want to do. I mean, you know, when I think back and realize what my parents let me do, I mean, you know, we started the conversation before recording with your Jerry Garcia reference, but like that's... I was 16 years old and my parents let me get on a bus and go to Philadelphia to go see the Grateful Dead. Just disappeared for two days and it was like that, that changed everything in my world. was like, and I looked back and realized, yes, you know, it's like I walked into this community and I'm like, I love these people. This is great. And my parents just didn't even bat an eye. Like, yeah, go for it. Go do it. This what you want to go do. Have fun. And, know, now I tell my wife, it's not my fault. It's, you know, the last.

41:44 35 years of my life have been dedicated to this band for one reason. It's all my parents' fault. isn't that funny? You know, even though I didn't know you were a grateful dead fan. Yeah. We tell the world who we are when we show up. Right. I just felt it. I'm like dude, you're invoking. So, know it. I think we should be who we wanna be but take responsibility for that's what we're telling the world. Yeah, no, I tell her stuff all the time. I'm like, look, I look like a jackass, but I've earned it. Like, you know, there was a there was a period of my life where I was pretty cleaned up and and, you know, trying to play the corporate part. And it it only lasted a couple of years.

42:27 And it probably in the in the in the middle of all that, I had a couple of people have conversations like, hey, you know, like, you're not really looking the part. And I've I've I've earned the ability to kind of get like. I could get away with this in my early 20s and in my early 30s is, I haven't shaved in 20 plus years and I've earned the ability to do that. I have to be aware. I know when I work on, was at an event last week with a buddy, tight little corporate environment. I know everybody's looking at me. think, um, just be, see, I think what we're, we were misinterpreting the word authentic word authentic in 2025.

43:09 Everybody's like, well, I want everybody to be authentic. It's like, hold on. I don't think you really want everybody to be authentic. Cause if we were, if we were authentic about what we felt about everybody, about the world, we'd have a lot of conflict. But I think the authentic is, just, just tell me who you are. Just tell me who you are. It's up to you if you want to just tell me who you are what we're dealing with. So I can decide, do I want to work with you? Do I want to have a friendship with you? I want to? Just let me know. And I'm not going to judge you, but just so there's no bullshit going on around here. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's that hard wiring part that you just got to figure out like, do people want to get shit done? That's, you know, I mean, that's, that's, that's a core value for us is getting shit done.

43:50 And it's like, I mean, to me, that's our number one hiring thing. And when I look around our company, you know, I always joke, but we don't have to let, I don't have to be part of HR. don't have to be part of getting people who don't want to work out. Our staff does, you know, I mean, you show up and work the canning line and you don't want to work. they're not gonna tolerate it for very long. They're gonna let you know you're not very welcome. that's, you know, that's there. mean, it's hard. You can interview, you can miss out an interview, but you can't hide that for very long once you're on the job. Well, I could talk to you forever. We do have to get you down here, but one final one here. Everybody should go out. I watched a video before the interview you all have out on YouTube.

44:31 I think you can find it on your website, but it's a good video about three minutes long, three and a half minutes long. It's you and your wife, but it's just talking about the business and about the journey. It's a good video. If you want to get to know who you guys are, it's a cool video. what question? Are you trying to answer right now? What's the question? Wow, that's a, you know what, I don't normally get stumped. think, I mean, I think on a personal level, what does the future look like me? You know, I mean, I'm at like that turn, not turning point in my career, but it's like, what's the next step for me? The day to day, how do I hand that off and get much more involved in the future of the business?

45:15 And I think, you know, that's that next step in the business. Like I've gone from, Brewmaster to day-to-day president. How do I get to that next step of really driving that long-term vision of the company, making sure we're, you know, are we pursuing the right opportunities? So I think that's what I'm really focused on is how do we get the company financially healthy and how do I get to a place where I have the freedom to grow the business to what it's really the real potential. And that is... mean, to me, that's that entrepreneurial step and everybody, it's really hard to get out of the day to day. How do you, I mean, and I'm sure you're the same way in the real estate.

45:58 It's like you're hustling and putting out fires and how do you get from that to just being able to foresee the fires and navigate people around them? think you figured it out, finding great people and empowering them. And then you can be above it all and you can really help them build and grow the business. Yeah, it sure doesn't hurt it. Yeah. Yeah. Um thanks for joining us man. Columbus Brewing. If you go through the city, the great city of Columbus, I'm kind of partial to our Cincinnati down here. I'm kind of partial to Northern Kentucky but I'll let y'all think your flatlands are valid. I'll I'll let you think that.

46:39 I gotta get a little dig in there. Yeah, I appreciate that. That was much nicer than my digs on Cincinnati. and we bring the Cincinnati Heat. ahead, come on, give us the end of this. I will not go there because I want to sell a lot of beer in Cincinnati. So I love Cincinnati. thank you for joining us. Hey, what's the quick plug for finding you guys? I talked about your video. What's the plug? Just one place, one location to come and check you guys out. Yeah, mean, think, you know, mean, Columbus Brewing Company, ColumbusBrewing.com is there. And, you know, we've got a fantastic restaurant on the east side of town that I think, I mean, beautiful building, great space, incredible beers on tap. So, you know, I invite everybody to come join us there or just find our beer in local grocery store.

47:22 You're the man. Thanks for joining us, Well, thank you. Appreciate it.