#151 - Thriving on Chaos: How Columbus Brewing Co. Built a Lasting Craft Beer Brand | Eric Bean

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I thrive on chaos, which is why I need smart people around me.

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It's why my wife is very important in this because I don't think she thrives in chaos.

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She functions through it, figures out how to solve the problems.

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I'm the one that's, you know, let's put this stick in the spokes and see what happens.

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All right, you all welcome back to the necessary entrepreneur.

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today's going to be a fun one because the 10 or 15 minutes of pre-show from the
conversation I had here with Eric Bean was just awesome.

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And yes, we talked about the beard.

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We talked about him just starting to get healthy and losing some weight but I'm pumped to
talk about all things brewery in the state of Ohio, Columbus, him traveling all over the

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country and him thinking he's a cool guy.

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So we're going to give a little short intro here and then we'll get we'll get rolling.

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So today we're joined by Eric Bean.

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He's the co-owner along with his wife and brew master of Columbus Brewing Company.

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Alongside his wife, Beth, Eric has helped grow CBC into a cornerstone of Ohio's craft beer
scene.

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Known for award-winning brews like Bodie and Creeper, Eric shares how they balance
innovation with tradition, scale a legacy brand, and build a brewery that's as much about

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community as it is about great beer.

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Welcome to the party, man.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah.

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So, we're going to talk a lot of things about beer, but, we use the words, but that this
brewery is as much about community as it is as great beer.

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is that true?

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I'd certainly like to think so.

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My wife and I, we love this city.

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We choose to live here.

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Neither one of us are originally from here.

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We didn't go to Ohio State, so we both chose to live here.

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We love it.

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And when I think about beer, we really have approached this from day one.

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My first brewing gig was under the tutelage of a German brewmaster, and I always think
about beer from that sense.

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Small breweries in the community...

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there's just a cornerstone of each city.

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When you go to a small city in Germany, you know, there's a bakery and there's a brewery
and getting in there and sitting down and having beers.

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That's just, that's the way we think about, you know, our brand.

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How do we bring people together?

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So what else if you look at it through the sense of that German brewer you learned after
him?

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Other than the community piece, do you think there was a unique experience versus the vast
array of all the breweries that have happened over the past decade?

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Was there something you learned different under him?

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Well, you know, I mean, when I look back at that experience and it was just, you know,
just happened into that brewery that day and got a job.

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And I think one of things he came to me, I mean, he told me this is, you know, back in the
mid nineties, he said, Hey, look, this country beer is going to take off.

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And he's like, there's some really good brewers, but nobody's trained.

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And, you know, in Germany, you're going to school, you're getting certification.

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He's like, you really should go to brewing school.

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And so that's.

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That's what motivated me.

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ended up going to UC Davis for their master brewers program based on that job.

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So I spent two years really learning about quality and the history and the art of making
beer.

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And then went to UC Davis to really sort of hammer down on that knowledge.

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Hmm.

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Did you think that you were going to be an entrepreneur?

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Could you have foreseen 10 years later?

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yeah, no, mean that goes back, I think it's genetic.

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My dad was a corporate guy, but my grandfather, my uncle were independent businessmen and
that's all my dad wanted to do.

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he was doing well and it was kind of one of those things.

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When I look at entrepreneurs, like, man, the worst thing you can do is start making six
figures because you can't take the risk.

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I was fortunate and was dumb enough, got a liberal arts degree.

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Making money was never on my path.

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So you can take those risks.

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So that was always, I loved beer and I was like, wow, can I, how do I do this?

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What's the dissemination between the entrepreneurial world that we live in?

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You had your brewing beer, but you're running the business.

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And if we sat and talked about what percentage you were running the business versus
getting to brew the beer now, I'm sure it's weighted tremendously.

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Even though you're a brewmaster, I bet your mind has probably weighted a ton on operating
and running the business.

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if, tell me I'm wrong, if I am.

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Oh no, I I would say, you know, eight years ago, I was 80 % beer, 20 % running the
business.

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And, you know, that wasn't successful.

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That was, I don't know if you're familiar with the E-Myth, but I was that entrepreneur of,
I created myself a job.

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And I think over the last, you know, it's been a progression, but over that last eight to
nine years, it's been, I'm probably 5 % in the brewery.

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If that, mean, you know, our director of brewing operations and our director of innovation
probably both laugh at that 5 % and say it's maybe half a percent, but it's good.

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I trust them.

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So it's not, that's not an issue, which is the key to running the business is having
people you trust.

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So if we talk about feelings, it's tough to run business with feelings.

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But how does Eric truly feel about that now?

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Because that's not in line with what people say, find your passion and the rest will take
care of itself.

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How should the operate in only doing a few percent of the brewery thing, the reason why
the passion started?

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I'm good with it.

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I've found a real passion for, I love being around people.

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I love going to meetings, having conversations and having that more philosophical
standpoint.

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I think that goes back to the way my brain's always.

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I love, I'm curious, I want to grow.

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I know beer.

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I still want to be involved in it.

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I still ask questions, but I like learning about finance, learning about marketing,
talking about sales.

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running our restaurants.

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I shouldn't say be running it because that's far from it.

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working with our, well, yeah, our VP of hospitality, I enjoy working with her and making
sure everything's running smoothly.

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I mean, our executive team is awesome to work with.

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That's the difference.

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back to when was, you know, when was I miserable?

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like, you know, my joke is always just in the dark closet with a bottle of whiskey crying.

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When did that end?

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It's when we built this executive team out.

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Did you know how to do that?

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Oh God no.

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mean, you know, through a lot of trial, a lot of tribulation, a lot of pain, we made some
choices.

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mean, my wife and I, I mean, I, you know, kind of goes back to one day where it was like,
oh, we got to do something and things just fell into place.

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We, you know, reached out to a financial consultant and we had an attorney friend who, I
mean, who'd been our attorney first, but became a friend, reached out to her and it was

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like, okay.

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And we kind of, you know,

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I don't want to say we wrote out the blueprint, we started that blueprint that took us
about a year and a half to really develop.

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uh

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you running the business before that happened when you said some things have to change
here?

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15, 16 years.

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mean, COVID was really hard on our operation.

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I mean, like every other business.

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I think we, when I look back at it, it's like, okay, I don't regret the choices we made,
but they did some harm.

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And we definitely segregated our business units out, kept people separated.

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And that created some tension inside the company.

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felt, we created silos instead of silos being created.

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And...

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So coming out of that, we had a lot of damage control to do and I think we're getting
there.

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It feels really good now.

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What's the business left?

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Because you did all that with the best of intentions.

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It's funny out here in this world, they say the road to hell is paved with great
intentions.

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But it's like we were following what the world's rules were, whether we had to or not,
whether it became political, all this stuff.

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But what do we take away from business of saying, those decisions that were made when we
thought we were making the right decisions, how do we look back?

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And how have you grown from it?

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How do you think?

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you'd make not just approach those decisions, but how do you think you approach big
decisions like that differently now?

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Have you all reflected about that?

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Yeah, and I mean, it's a tough one because we put people first.

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And in hindsight, that may not have I think it was the right decision, but it came with
consequences.

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And, you know, I mean, it was draining.

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I was daily telling everybody, everybody, it's going to be OK.

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We kept everybody on payroll.

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We even moved.

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We even moved people from our taproom, tried to hold on to them.

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And it was really tough.

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and we weren't communicating as well.

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I think now the communication that we have in the company, we could have moved a lot
faster.

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We were working kind of blindly and we didn't have all the financial sophistication that
we needed at the time.

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Boy, isn't that funny that the toughest parts of our business and entrepreneurship, if you
fight through it and don't wave the white flag and you fight and you force your way

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through it, you look back, we learn tremendous lessons that make us so much better.

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But in the moment, it feels like it's ending.

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Yeah, no, that's why I think, you know, I mean, I think about this all the time.

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I was raised, you know, my parents were both just incredible people, really smart,
hardworking.

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I didn't know that you didn't have to go to college.

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I didn't know that you didn't have to work, you know, 80 hours a week.

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Those were all things that I watched them sacrifice and do.

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And I just look back and I go, well, yeah, those are lessons.

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That's how you run a business.

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And when I look at business, I look at people starting business, they're like lifestyle.

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Oh, I'm, know, I'm going to put in 30 hours.

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I'm gonna, it's like, yeah, that's gonna fail.

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And when people-

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So we know it and all the business owners that have been in business for five to 10 years
know it.

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But if we're helping, because I want to help this next generation.

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I mean, if we could like ease everyone's pain a little bit, because if there would have
been someone that could have eased my pain, not to say don't do it, right?

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Not to say it's not worth it, but if they could have eased my pain, man, that sure would
have been a little bit better.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I, you know, I don't know about for you, but looking back, how
many pieces of advice did you get over the last 10, 15 years that you're like, it took me,

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if I would have listened to that 15 years ago or that's what they meant.

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Shit.

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I couldn't turn that corner faster.

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Do you think that's just who we are because we're just, is that why we're entrepreneurs as
well?

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Is that why all these people start businesses?

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Because we haven't listened to what the world's told us.

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And so it just comes with the territory.

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Yeah, I don't know, but I was told early in my career that I better work for myself
because I wasn't very good working with other people.

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Do believe that about yourself now?

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Back then.

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yeah.

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No, I was a pain in the ass.

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Yeah, no, I mean, was, you know, that's that's why I laugh when I have a difficult
employee who's, know, who's struggling and pushing my, know, trying to push buttons.

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I just laugh and go, yeah, no, I get it.

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I've been there.

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I know you're testing me and.

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when you actually call that out, I mean, it changes the relationship with that employee.

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Yeah, no, I think, mean, you it's so hard to have really brutally honest conversations and
I'm not going to tell you I have them every time, but every time you do, go, wow, so much

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easier.

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You know, mean, holding people accountable, that's all we all want.

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If we know where our boundaries are, it's easy to work with them.

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Why are the brutal tough conversations, the honest ones, why are those tough?

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The brutal honest conversations, why are they so tough?

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think we're, you we're all wired for sensitivity.

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I mean, I'm a, you know, like I want to please people.

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I like people.

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I want them to like me.

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And I think it makes it tough because you start overthinking what's, what's this going to
mean?

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Are they going to quit?

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Are they, are they going to start talking about me behind my back?

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And none of those matter.

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mean, if it, if the brutal truth makes somebody quit, that's a good thing.

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And yeah, you know, I mean, not that I want to invite that, but that means they weren't,
it wasn't the right fit.

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doesn't make them bad people.

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I think that's a

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That's another key message that we've learned over the years.

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Like, hey, look, it's all about fit and, you know, like community, can we build trust with
each other?

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And that's the hardest part.

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Once you trust somebody, you can say anything you want.

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Do you have a metric for building that trust?

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Or is it all fear?

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Yeah, no, no, it's all film and think it's a like, you when you just know it's there just
one day, it's just like, yeah, that, you know, I I think that's how I measure it.

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It's like, you just kind of laugh and go, I can't believe we just said that to each other.

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And everybody was okay.

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And you're like, all right, let's go.

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Yeah, right, you know, or you can have some tension in a meeting and you walk out of the
meeting and you go, you you're laughing in the break room.

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It's like, yeah, okay, good.

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This is how it's supposed to be.

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Like we're supposed to have tension.

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Mm-hmm.

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Back to, I want to talk about the experience with your dad being very successful
professionally and then your grandpa being an entrepreneur.

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But one more before we move beyond that, this piece, we talked about COVID.

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I'm assuming you still had to go in, we didn't talk about this.

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Yeah.

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I'm assuming you still had to go in every day.

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No, so I didn't.

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that's, that's, don't.

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So, I mean, I have an additional piece.

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My wife had, had just finished chemo about four months prior to that.

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She went through a breast cancer treatment and everything's good now.

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But so we were, we went into lockdown.

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mean, her oncologist said, Hey, look, you're saying you're in a good place, I, you know,
I'm not recommending anybody to get COVID, but you're probably at the top of the list of

212
00:13:51,164 --> 00:13:52,605
people I don't want to see.

213
00:13:52,733 --> 00:14:00,903
So we went into really strict lockdown in our house and you know, we had our operations
manager at the brewery.

214
00:14:00,903 --> 00:14:02,126
So there it is.

215
00:14:02,259 --> 00:14:03,280
Yeah.

216
00:14:03,601 --> 00:14:04,883
Someone still had to go in.

217
00:14:04,883 --> 00:14:05,965
That's the point, right?

218
00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:10,451
But if she wouldn't have been going through chemo, you all would have been the ones.

219
00:14:10,923 --> 00:14:21,643
Oh yeah, no, I mean, I think, you I don't regret it because I, mean, you that was too
important in my life, but same time, it's like, that was probably some of the stress that

220
00:14:21,643 --> 00:14:32,883
was added was that, you know, that disconnect because we, we were, we are asking people to
come in every day, work in not close proximity, but in proximity of each other.

221
00:14:32,883 --> 00:14:39,343
And it's kind of what message is that that like, the office people aren't, but we need you
too.

222
00:14:39,483 --> 00:14:40,349
But our,

223
00:14:40,349 --> 00:14:45,012
Our logic was that we're trying to have as few people in the building as possible.

224
00:14:45,012 --> 00:14:45,522
Yeah.

225
00:14:45,522 --> 00:14:48,334
Isn't that a part, like it's not even the message about COVID.

226
00:14:48,334 --> 00:14:53,567
The reason why I tie this in, isn't that just the truth about entrepreneurship and running
a business?

227
00:14:53,948 --> 00:14:57,281
No matter what's going on, someone has to show up.

228
00:14:57,671 --> 00:14:58,981
Yeah, no, somebody's gotta be there.

229
00:14:58,981 --> 00:15:01,313
I that's where you have to that trusting relationship.

230
00:15:01,313 --> 00:15:03,645
you know, I mean, my phone doesn't turn off.

231
00:15:03,645 --> 00:15:07,297
I, you know, I rarely, you know, everybody knows they can get ahold of me.

232
00:15:07,297 --> 00:15:08,378
I'm on vacation.

233
00:15:08,378 --> 00:15:10,940
I'm trying to learn how to do that.

234
00:15:10,940 --> 00:15:11,790
I'm not doing AO.

235
00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:14,602
It's like, what's the balance?

236
00:15:15,063 --> 00:15:17,864
But I think, you know, we've all gotten better organization.

237
00:15:17,864 --> 00:15:21,771
It's like, hey, there is the bad phone, but otherwise don't use it.

238
00:15:21,771 --> 00:15:22,667
Yeah.

239
00:15:22,835 --> 00:15:23,906
So why is all this worth?

240
00:15:23,906 --> 00:15:25,278
Why is it worth it then?

241
00:15:25,278 --> 00:15:30,052
I could speak on this for an hour, but this is my podcast to highlight what you guys are
doing to talk about you.

242
00:15:30,052 --> 00:15:33,095
But so why is it worth it for you and your wife and you and your wife?

243
00:15:33,095 --> 00:15:42,716
Why is it worth it to do this then on the vacations that aren't vacations, the bat phone,
even though you've gotten better, I still know that seven days a week, there's not a day

244
00:15:42,716 --> 00:15:46,029
that there aren't multiple moments that your business is not on your mind.

245
00:15:46,419 --> 00:15:47,099
Yeah.

246
00:15:47,099 --> 00:15:49,040
Well, I mean, it's a blast.

247
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:55,885
mean, like, you know, I mean, it's, it's that like balance between this is the greatest
thing and the worst decision you've ever made.

248
00:15:55,885 --> 00:15:58,148
And you got to, you got to go with the good, right?

249
00:15:58,148 --> 00:16:01,091
I mean, I could sit and mope and, know, and I have those days.

250
00:16:01,091 --> 00:16:08,575
not, you know, let's not pretend like it's all, you know, it's all just some exactly, but
you know, it's fun.

251
00:16:08,575 --> 00:16:14,426
mean, you see people and then know that we've got over 90 employees and like over the
time, like

252
00:16:14,426 --> 00:16:20,448
We've got families and we have employees with kids going to college.

253
00:16:20,888 --> 00:16:22,390
It's exciting.

254
00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:24,011
certainly we've had some rewards.

255
00:16:24,011 --> 00:16:35,004
I don't want to discount that, but I could be making a good living working for somebody
else, but I find a lot of reward in these pieces of growing the company.

256
00:16:35,004 --> 00:16:35,264
Yeah.

257
00:16:35,264 --> 00:16:42,188
Isn't that the thing to find, find the thing daily, whether we're an employee, whether we
run the business, that you find something that's rewarding every day.

258
00:16:42,188 --> 00:16:48,411
think this passion's overused because there's multiple times throughout my day, passion be
gone.

259
00:16:48,411 --> 00:16:49,253
It's terrible.

260
00:16:49,253 --> 00:16:51,404
so, but find something rewarding.

261
00:16:51,404 --> 00:16:59,629
know that if I personally get to the end of the day, and even though was a bad day and
things didn't start out the right way, that I kept it together, that we move some stuff

262
00:16:59,629 --> 00:17:04,271
forward, that you helped accomplish the thing that's rewarding at the end of a really
tough day.

263
00:17:04,807 --> 00:17:06,698
Yeah, no, I mean, that's just it.

264
00:17:06,698 --> 00:17:07,479
It's exciting.

265
00:17:07,479 --> 00:17:08,230
It feels good.

266
00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:09,381
It's rewarding.

267
00:17:09,381 --> 00:17:12,703
You're having a blast and then you're having a miserable time.

268
00:17:12,703 --> 00:17:15,663
But the ultimate piece of it is it feels good.

269
00:17:15,663 --> 00:17:17,321
I I think that's the hard part.

270
00:17:17,321 --> 00:17:21,505
That's what you got to fight through in the early stages is like, it's exhausting.

271
00:17:21,505 --> 00:17:22,986
There's no financial return.

272
00:17:22,986 --> 00:17:23,877
There's no nothing.

273
00:17:23,877 --> 00:17:26,309
There's just people asking for more of you.

274
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:29,062
it's like, how much is there's nothing left to give.

275
00:17:29,062 --> 00:17:31,163
But then you get past that point.

276
00:17:31,163 --> 00:17:32,844
and you find out there's more to give.

277
00:17:32,935 --> 00:17:35,395
Yeah, well, there's more to give, but it's different.

278
00:17:35,395 --> 00:17:35,855
right?

279
00:17:35,855 --> 00:17:38,135
mean, because early on it was physical.

280
00:17:38,135 --> 00:17:47,215
mean, I was spending seven days a week, 12 hours a day in the brewery and then kind of
going home and, you know, having to think about how we're going to pay this bill or, you

281
00:17:47,215 --> 00:17:58,435
know, we still joke all the time about 10, 15 years ago, we would literally put two
pallets of bottles on a truck to make payroll.

282
00:17:58,435 --> 00:18:02,501
I would load up the truck and drive them to our wholesaler and be like, could I get a
check?

283
00:18:02,501 --> 00:18:05,089
I need to get in the bank so we can make payroll tomorrow.

284
00:18:06,632 --> 00:18:08,518
Isn't it so satisfying?

285
00:18:08,518 --> 00:18:12,990
We smile and laugh about how do we do it, but isn't it really satisfying to look back on
that?

286
00:18:13,514 --> 00:18:17,687
yeah, no, I mean, you know, there's some romantic side of how much fun that was.

287
00:18:17,687 --> 00:18:23,041
It wasn't at all, but the fact that you can look back and put a twist to it tells you it's
fun.

288
00:18:23,041 --> 00:18:24,793
know, it is, it's satisfying.

289
00:18:24,793 --> 00:18:27,014
feels, you know, there's a sense of accomplishment.

290
00:18:27,014 --> 00:18:35,809
I think that's the key to being an entrepreneur is like, how do you find that satisfaction
in the small baby steps forward?

291
00:18:35,809 --> 00:18:38,493
I mean, you know, sure, the guy who...

292
00:18:38,493 --> 00:18:42,810
you know, started a business and got to 10 or $20 million revenue in year one.

293
00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:45,704
Those are, those are rare things.

294
00:18:45,704 --> 00:18:46,784
That's not real.

295
00:18:46,784 --> 00:18:47,676
mean,

296
00:18:48,014 --> 00:18:51,152
The reason why it's not real, you said it, it's a unicorn.

297
00:18:52,178 --> 00:18:55,848
And if that's what you're planning on when you start a business, you're going have a lot
of disappointment.

298
00:18:56,066 --> 00:18:59,244
Yeah, no, especially I mean, if you're not in tech, that's not going to happen.

299
00:18:59,244 --> 00:19:00,327
Yeah.

300
00:19:00,327 --> 00:19:01,727
not doing AI of beer now?

301
00:19:01,727 --> 00:19:02,858
Come on, Eric.

302
00:19:02,858 --> 00:19:04,692
no, no, I wish.

303
00:19:04,692 --> 00:19:07,198
mean, those margins look really good.

304
00:19:07,412 --> 00:19:07,975
tell you.

305
00:19:07,975 --> 00:19:10,436
So why why are you guys so good at brewing?

306
00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:12,113
Why is the Columbus Brewing Come?

307
00:19:12,113 --> 00:19:13,416
Why are you so good?

308
00:19:13,792 --> 00:19:20,465
What's I mean that has been, I mean back to day one, you my training with German brew
master going to UC Davis.

309
00:19:20,465 --> 00:19:29,579
I spent five years with Gordon Beers, the brewery restaurant group and just was beaten
into me more or less quality is number one thing.

310
00:19:29,579 --> 00:19:33,351
And that's what we've, that's what we've hung our hat on from day one is quality.

311
00:19:33,351 --> 00:19:35,833
We didn't grow as fast because we wanted to maintain.

312
00:19:35,833 --> 00:19:41,873
We, when we, couldn't make beer with, we couldn't control everything inside the beer that
we wanted to.

313
00:19:41,873 --> 00:19:43,424
I didn't want a wider distribution.

314
00:19:43,424 --> 00:19:45,616
knew we could at least control that piece.

315
00:19:45,616 --> 00:19:47,037
now we're statewide.

316
00:19:47,037 --> 00:19:58,844
We have the technology that we could, I feel comfortable we could send beer all over the
country, but we've chosen to just keep our beer within the state of Ohio, maintain those

317
00:19:58,844 --> 00:20:06,130
quality regimens, over-invested in brew house, canning technology, laboratory and people.

318
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:12,955
the there's something special about not getting too big.

319
00:20:12,955 --> 00:20:21,191
don't know what that boundary is yet as an entrepreneur but do you think are you going to
be satisfied for your entire career you and your wives you live it out whatever that

320
00:20:21,191 --> 00:20:26,144
career looks like are you going to be satisfied to continue because I saw your laboratory
online.

321
00:20:26,144 --> 00:20:36,011
I bet there's only a few brewers that are the size of you and even when you started the
laboratory that are investing that much in that type of science.

322
00:20:36,036 --> 00:20:38,050
I don't think that probably happens a ton.

323
00:20:38,515 --> 00:20:44,095
Yeah, I I think, you know, we're probably we're ahead of our size.

324
00:20:44,095 --> 00:20:51,835
mean, you know, there's there's other breweries in the state of Ohio that have as good, if
not better, but they're larger operations than us.

325
00:20:51,835 --> 00:20:56,015
I mean, you know, I joke all the time that my tombstone or just say he tried.

326
00:20:56,015 --> 00:20:59,935
And that's you know, that that'll be that'll be satisfying.

327
00:20:59,935 --> 00:21:02,775
It's like we are working hard.

328
00:21:02,775 --> 00:21:05,995
I've invested, you know, over the years into this stuff.

329
00:21:05,995 --> 00:21:08,835
We make incredible beer and proud of our team.

330
00:21:08,947 --> 00:21:12,900
And we're growing still in a really tough beer market.

331
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:19,705
And I think the reason is, is, you know, we're invested on our sales and marketing, but
we're not overly invested there.

332
00:21:19,705 --> 00:21:22,876
We're probably overly invested on the quality of our beer.

333
00:21:22,876 --> 00:21:24,065
That can never be wrong, right?

334
00:21:24,065 --> 00:21:25,401
That's never wrong.

335
00:21:25,550 --> 00:21:27,355
No, no, no, exactly.

336
00:21:27,355 --> 00:21:32,196
And I think and you know, it's like, well, that and that's that's driving our success, you
know.

337
00:21:32,934 --> 00:21:34,662
When tough shows up, that's how you win.

338
00:21:34,662 --> 00:21:36,070
Quality is how you win.

339
00:21:36,368 --> 00:21:40,231
Yeah, no, I mean, you we had to do this years ago.

340
00:21:40,231 --> 00:21:48,199
We went through this big survey process and the person who ran the survey said, I don't
know if I've ever seen customer feedback like this.

341
00:21:48,199 --> 00:21:50,991
Like your brand resonates with trust.

342
00:21:50,991 --> 00:21:52,473
Your consumer trusts you.

343
00:21:52,473 --> 00:22:00,639
that was like the most satisfying feedback is they know when they pick up one of our
products, it's going to be a high quality product.

344
00:22:00,639 --> 00:22:03,492
And so I can always smile and say, hey, I don't like that.

345
00:22:03,492 --> 00:22:03,892
It's like,

346
00:22:03,892 --> 00:22:05,163
Okay, I appreciate that.

347
00:22:05,163 --> 00:22:10,687
It's not, it's, have worked for other breweries where it's like, yeah, I know it's not
very good.

348
00:22:10,687 --> 00:22:11,888
That's not our issue.

349
00:22:11,888 --> 00:22:12,518
You don't like it.

350
00:22:12,518 --> 00:22:13,239
You don't like beer.

351
00:22:13,239 --> 00:22:15,270
You don't like that style of beer.

352
00:22:15,951 --> 00:22:20,264
You know, it's, it's not a personal attack that we didn't do something right.

353
00:22:20,832 --> 00:22:26,556
How do you know when you should make a change when you get that type of advice or when you
get that feedback?

354
00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:27,978
How do we know?

355
00:22:28,994 --> 00:22:30,554
I mean, to me, it's a gut check.

356
00:22:30,554 --> 00:22:35,974
It's like, well, did that hurt just because it's ego or did that hurt because it's true?

357
00:22:37,254 --> 00:22:38,794
I mean, that's how I look at it.

358
00:22:38,794 --> 00:22:43,554
like, you know, I mean, if somebody calls you ugly, it's like, oh, okay, we'll look in the
mirror like, yeah, no, they're right, I'm ugly.

359
00:22:43,554 --> 00:22:45,494
So it just hurts because it's true.

360
00:22:47,293 --> 00:22:51,489
does it feel worse to have someone say your beer doesn't taste good than to say you're
ugly?

361
00:22:51,659 --> 00:22:52,580
definitely.

362
00:22:52,580 --> 00:22:54,160
Yeah, don't mean my appearance is not.

363
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,304
I mean, you look at me.

364
00:22:55,304 --> 00:22:57,259
Do I look like I'm too tied to my appearance?

365
00:22:57,259 --> 00:23:03,781
you know, the beer, the beer quality is I mean, that's that is, you know, it's it's all
about pride.

366
00:23:05,725 --> 00:23:08,344
So you said the beer industry right now is tough.

367
00:23:08,935 --> 00:23:09,752
Yeah.

368
00:23:10,567 --> 00:23:12,790
What's Eric and Columbus Brewing do when it's tough?

369
00:23:12,790 --> 00:23:13,671
We talked about quality.

370
00:23:13,671 --> 00:23:16,795
What else do you, what did you learn to do when things get tough?

371
00:23:18,099 --> 00:23:21,939
Well, I mean, think we just, you know, it's just double down on what we do.

372
00:23:21,939 --> 00:23:24,399
think, you know, I mean, you know, are we pivoting?

373
00:23:24,399 --> 00:23:24,699
Yeah.

374
00:23:24,699 --> 00:23:28,119
I mean, you know, we're looking at our portfolio, looking at costs.

375
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,439
mean, you know, our CFO has been with us for the last three and a half years.

376
00:23:32,439 --> 00:23:35,579
Really, you know, really turned us upside down in a great way.

377
00:23:35,579 --> 00:23:42,639
I mean, just absolutely digging under everything, looking at every single input and
asking, is it necessary?

378
00:23:42,639 --> 00:23:44,219
Is this the best price?

379
00:23:44,219 --> 00:23:47,699
So that has helped us, you know, significantly.

380
00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:52,430
our debt load, cause that's, that is the hardest part about beer industry.

381
00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:55,541
When I look at other industries, I'm like, wow, that'd be so nice.

382
00:23:55,541 --> 00:24:04,373
You know, you look at a consultant, like you got some laptops, we've got millions and
millions of dollars worth of stainless steel in our brewery.

383
00:24:05,053 --> 00:24:08,014
It's expensive and growth is expensive.

384
00:24:08,014 --> 00:24:10,075
So it's gotta be done right.

385
00:24:10,075 --> 00:24:18,108
And you know, the whole industry, that's, there's so much excess capacity in the industry
because everybody, it was all blue sky and

386
00:24:18,154 --> 00:24:23,374
Come 2021, 2022, all of a sudden that blue sky started getting a little more gray.

387
00:24:23,514 --> 00:24:25,414
And we've been successful.

388
00:24:25,414 --> 00:24:30,354
23 was the only down year that we've had since we bought the brewery 20 years ago.

389
00:24:31,374 --> 00:24:34,354
Last two have been tougher, but we've been growing.

390
00:24:35,178 --> 00:24:39,578
What, uh, what'd you have to learn new in 23 when you hadn't been through that type of
year?

391
00:24:39,578 --> 00:24:41,218
What'd you have to learn looking back?

392
00:24:41,218 --> 00:24:46,478
You're like, Oh, I needed to learn that lesson other than flipping over the rocks and
saving 10 bucks and the CFO.

393
00:24:46,478 --> 00:24:47,714
What'd you really have to learn?

394
00:24:48,970 --> 00:24:51,630
I think we had to learn to, you know what mean?

395
00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:54,230
You gotta stick to your guns.

396
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:56,330
You can't over commit on things.

397
00:24:56,330 --> 00:25:03,110
And I think that was, you we kind of bet on this big growth and we overspent on that.

398
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:05,250
And we opened a restaurant.

399
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:08,530
And what did I learn in opening a restaurant?

400
00:25:08,690 --> 00:25:11,710
It's as bad as everybody tells you it is.

401
00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:16,810
There's nobody hiding behind that.

402
00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:28,759
I listened to your interview with Chuck from Dewey's Pizza and I'm like, man, he sure
makes it sound rosy and they got it dialed in, you know, it's, is, it is a tough, tough

403
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:32,291
grind and the margins, you know, aren't great.

404
00:25:32,291 --> 00:25:34,213
And we had built the whole thing.

405
00:25:34,213 --> 00:25:36,724
Our LOI was pre COVID.

406
00:25:36,945 --> 00:25:38,686
Our construction doubled.

407
00:25:38,686 --> 00:25:41,530
We didn't, you know, we didn't account for that.

408
00:25:41,530 --> 00:25:42,450
And

409
00:25:42,868 --> 00:25:46,466
It hurts every month when you make those payments, that debt schedules.

410
00:25:46,466 --> 00:25:48,866
The old debt schedule would have been a lot sexier.

411
00:25:48,866 --> 00:25:49,647
wouldn't it have been?

412
00:25:49,647 --> 00:25:50,007
Yeah.

413
00:25:50,007 --> 00:25:50,728
Yeah.

414
00:25:50,728 --> 00:25:57,976
Every time you spend a hundred grand on something, don't you think about like, man, we
could have done that with a hundred grand instead of just giving it to this thing.

415
00:25:58,077 --> 00:25:58,647
yeah.

416
00:25:58,647 --> 00:25:59,718
Mine does it.

417
00:25:59,936 --> 00:26:02,297
Yeah, no, I mean, that's my thing all the time.

418
00:26:02,297 --> 00:26:03,927
Like, what do mean we have to do this?

419
00:26:03,927 --> 00:26:10,129
That's, know, it's, I, I look back, I've made some really expensive mistakes, but it's
also why I'm in it.

420
00:26:10,129 --> 00:26:15,350
I, know, and I tell our team all the time, I'll make that decision if you need me to,
cause I'm not afraid to fail.

421
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:17,371
Like I know I won't make the right one.

422
00:26:17,371 --> 00:26:18,451
It's all about pivot.

423
00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:25,146
Like I have made, I've made seven figure mistakes and you just, you, you guess what?

424
00:26:25,146 --> 00:26:27,086
You've got to figure out how pay for it.

425
00:26:27,349 --> 00:26:28,629
That's what you do.

426
00:26:28,629 --> 00:26:28,889
Yeah.

427
00:26:28,889 --> 00:26:37,067
Do you think all these books you noted the E-Myth, do you think all these books and all
the other podcasts in the world, are those helping us level up so we stay away from those

428
00:26:37,067 --> 00:26:38,048
seven figure mistakes?

429
00:26:38,048 --> 00:26:39,950
Cause I made one and boy, they hurt.

430
00:26:39,950 --> 00:26:44,354
They hurt because what I look back on, I'm like, why didn't I see that?

431
00:26:44,354 --> 00:26:44,894
Why didn't I?

432
00:26:44,894 --> 00:26:48,718
I'm so smart and I'm building and running this business and we've been this successful.

433
00:26:48,718 --> 00:26:51,780
The rest of the world just bows down and says, look what they're doing.

434
00:26:51,780 --> 00:26:54,182
And it's like, well, I wasn't good enough to see that.

435
00:26:54,506 --> 00:26:56,266
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

436
00:26:56,266 --> 00:26:57,826
You know, that's a that's a really good question.

437
00:26:57,826 --> 00:27:03,386
I mean, I think back to like growing up, my dad had on a shelf and I mean, a dusty shelf.

438
00:27:03,386 --> 00:27:04,526
I don't think he ever read it.

439
00:27:04,526 --> 00:27:07,626
But the pursuit of excellence, I think it's Tom Peters.

440
00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:08,826
Is that right?

441
00:27:10,046 --> 00:27:15,806
like that was about the only book you had out there to help you, you know, get through get
through your business career.

442
00:27:15,806 --> 00:27:19,826
And then, you know, I think it was seven seven habits.

443
00:27:19,914 --> 00:27:21,378
highly successful people.

444
00:27:21,478 --> 00:27:29,058
yeah, you know, I mean that's I kind of feel like that's probably when it kicked off in
the 90s and I'm old enough to go, you know, this is all brand new.

445
00:27:29,058 --> 00:27:36,538
I mean, if you're if you're under 30, you think this is always all this information has
been readily available, but it's all brand new.

446
00:27:36,538 --> 00:27:38,498
And I mean, I love it.

447
00:27:38,498 --> 00:27:41,078
I know, I grew up I grew up with encyclopedias.

448
00:27:41,078 --> 00:27:46,638
I used to I was that nerd who sat my mom had the encyclopedias that she bought when she
was in nursing school.

449
00:27:46,638 --> 00:27:48,278
And I sat as a kid and read them.

450
00:27:48,278 --> 00:27:49,662
And now I'm like,

451
00:27:49,662 --> 00:27:57,094
Then it became Wikipedia, now I'm like with AI, I'm like, you're telling me I can
literally put any question I have in my head and it'll answer it?

452
00:27:57,428 --> 00:27:59,656
You've been waiting for this for 52 years.

453
00:27:59,656 --> 00:28:00,690
Yeah, no.

454
00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:06,435
Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's an ongoing joke in the company of like, why no, Eric's gonna
Google it, figure it out.

455
00:28:06,435 --> 00:28:07,205
It's

456
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:10,101
isn't that funny?

457
00:28:10,101 --> 00:28:14,044
That must be your brand inside the company, what you just said.

458
00:28:14,065 --> 00:28:18,268
And that's a hell of a brand to be because that's a guy that figures it out.

459
00:28:19,170 --> 00:28:20,961
Man, how valuable is that?

460
00:28:21,285 --> 00:28:24,897
Yeah, no, it's I mean, I'm surrounded by a lot of other people who are going to do that.

461
00:28:24,897 --> 00:28:27,515
And I think that's that's we're going to

462
00:28:27,515 --> 00:28:27,877
credit.

463
00:28:27,877 --> 00:28:29,742
I'm interrupting because you're going to them credit.

464
00:28:29,742 --> 00:28:34,894
if you're known for that and that's your brand, it's like, man, that's that is the unlock.

465
00:28:35,496 --> 00:28:38,388
Yeah, it certainly has helped.

466
00:28:38,388 --> 00:28:39,867
I don't really know how to quit.

467
00:28:39,867 --> 00:28:41,800
don't know how to do those things, because I should have.

468
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,668
I mean, when I look back, I should have probably quit.

469
00:28:44,668 --> 00:28:50,505
I kind of, you it's like, you hear the stories that people probably not, you know, they
graduated from college because they didn't want to call their dad and tell them that they

470
00:28:50,505 --> 00:28:51,497
were wasting their money.

471
00:28:51,497 --> 00:28:53,518
certainly had that story.

472
00:28:53,518 --> 00:29:02,529
The same thing, my dad loaned me some money to get, when we bought the business, was like,
okay, I'm not going to Thanksgiving dinner and going to tell him that.

473
00:29:02,529 --> 00:29:06,361
where, know, hey, that money you gave me, you're never gonna see a dime of it.

474
00:29:06,962 --> 00:29:08,263
Yeah.

475
00:29:08,263 --> 00:29:10,624
So, you know, I had those reasons not to quit.

476
00:29:10,624 --> 00:29:13,623
Now it just, it's like, you know, you just, it's what you do every day.

477
00:29:13,623 --> 00:29:16,309
You just, you do the grind, you figure it out.

478
00:29:16,309 --> 00:29:21,634
And, and I think it's, mean, you know, back to giving everybody credit, I didn't even know
I needed it.

479
00:29:21,634 --> 00:29:25,818
And when I see it, when I get it, it's like, my God, how much easier is my life?

480
00:29:25,818 --> 00:29:29,568
Like, you know, I get a text a couple of Sundays ago and

481
00:29:29,568 --> 00:29:32,308
they weren't requesting my French toast recipe.

482
00:29:32,308 --> 00:29:34,288
It was to inform me of some bad news.

483
00:29:34,288 --> 00:29:35,328
It was like, okay, cool.

484
00:29:35,328 --> 00:29:36,188
What are we doing?

485
00:29:36,188 --> 00:29:37,028
They ran it down.

486
00:29:37,028 --> 00:29:38,288
I'm like, awesome.

487
00:29:38,608 --> 00:29:40,428
I'll talk to you tomorrow.

488
00:29:41,048 --> 00:29:48,168
And what a relief that is instead of like spending my entire day pacing going, well, this
is it.

489
00:29:48,168 --> 00:29:49,608
This is how we go bankrupt.

490
00:29:49,608 --> 00:29:51,480
This is the, you know, this is the day.

491
00:29:52,544 --> 00:30:01,784
What do you think your job, my job, our job as leaders, which it's whoever the leader is,
whether it's a coach of a team, you're operating and running the business, but the one at

492
00:30:01,784 --> 00:30:04,184
the end of the day, the buck stops there.

493
00:30:04,344 --> 00:30:08,164
Who, what do you think it's your responsibility in that role?

494
00:30:11,456 --> 00:30:14,156
I'd like to think it's just, you know, it's as simple as inspiration.

495
00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:22,836
It's not, but I mean, I think, you know, it's like, why does the business fail as soon as,
you know, and I mean, our team knows if I'm having a bad day, I, you know, I don't hide it

496
00:30:22,836 --> 00:30:23,336
real well.

497
00:30:23,336 --> 00:30:25,976
don't, you know, I mean, it's not terrible, but it's not real well.

498
00:30:25,976 --> 00:30:35,516
But like on a day-to-day thing, kind of like just perseverance and inspiration is what
drives, I think, the whole company forward.

499
00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:39,232
I would imagine it's in most companies, you know, when the leader...

500
00:30:39,232 --> 00:30:41,932
When the lady buries his head, what else do you have left?

501
00:30:44,148 --> 00:30:45,563
Yeah, usually nothing.

502
00:30:45,854 --> 00:30:52,013
Yeah, no, that's when, you know, and unfortunately, that's when companies really struggle
because who leaves first?

503
00:30:52,013 --> 00:30:54,866
Your good employees who could have helped you bail out.

504
00:30:55,642 --> 00:30:56,594
Mm-hmm.

505
00:30:56,958 --> 00:30:59,004
I bet you've had to learn that hard lesson.

506
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:09,143
Yeah, no, I'm, you know, plenty of lessons, you know, it's, it's been tough hiring, hiring
good people and holding onto them is really tough.

507
00:31:09,423 --> 00:31:13,244
And, know, we, we have, we've, we've sort of run the gamut of them.

508
00:31:13,244 --> 00:31:18,285
We've, we've had a lot of good employees have gone on to other jobs and it's exciting.

509
00:31:18,285 --> 00:31:21,116
You know, it's, I, and I, I truly mean it.

510
00:31:21,116 --> 00:31:27,528
It's tough to see somebody leave, but it's like, our job is to help somebody get better at
their job.

511
00:31:27,584 --> 00:31:30,244
and for us to create an opportunity for them to stay.

512
00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:32,864
And if not, she goes somewhere else.

513
00:31:32,864 --> 00:31:40,284
that's, I, you know, probably 10 years ago, I had an employee who he was out on paternity
leave and I called him.

514
00:31:40,284 --> 00:31:43,544
said, this is going to be the strangest thing, but I have an opportunity for you.

515
00:31:43,544 --> 00:31:47,084
I don't see you moving up in the next year or two.

516
00:31:47,164 --> 00:31:52,644
I, somebody called me and they're looking for a brewer, you know, are you cool if I throw
your name in the hat?

517
00:31:52,644 --> 00:31:54,344
And he's like, are you firing me?

518
00:31:54,344 --> 00:31:55,624
I'm like, absolutely not.

519
00:31:55,624 --> 00:31:56,312
I,

520
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:02,780
I think this could be a significant amount of money for you." And he took it and he's
since opened another brewery.

521
00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:04,440
And it's like, that's awesome.

522
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,600
I don't know.

523
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:08,960
can't speak for him.

524
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,180
He at least will answer my calls.

525
00:32:12,776 --> 00:32:16,568
I can speak for him because I think this is what I've realized in life.

526
00:32:16,568 --> 00:32:19,656
We all know, we know the truth.

527
00:32:21,482 --> 00:32:22,433
We know.

528
00:32:22,492 --> 00:32:28,102
He knows that by you making that call, that was a defining moment in his life.

529
00:32:28,478 --> 00:32:32,680
Yeah, no, I mean, I'd like to think that, you know, but I didn't do it.

530
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,589
You certainly I think that's the, you know, that's the key to it, right?

531
00:32:35,589 --> 00:32:39,293
I mean, you're not doing it because you want somebody to remember you're doing because
it's just the right thing.

532
00:32:39,293 --> 00:32:43,456
just, you do it and you figure out and you pivot and you move on.

533
00:32:43,456 --> 00:32:52,161
And he, you know, I don't know if that hadn't happened, he'd still be with us, but it, you
know, I'm sure it was a pivot, a big pivot in his career.

534
00:32:52,161 --> 00:32:54,382
And, you know, and we had to pivot too.

535
00:32:56,118 --> 00:32:57,598
What's it feel like?

536
00:32:57,598 --> 00:32:59,938
It's funny, I named my real estate company that, right?

537
00:32:59,938 --> 00:33:01,158
It's funny.

538
00:33:01,278 --> 00:33:04,678
But 17 years ago, what's it mean even with that word?

539
00:33:04,678 --> 00:33:05,558
That's become popular.

540
00:33:05,558 --> 00:33:06,638
And I named my company that.

541
00:33:06,638 --> 00:33:08,198
Everybody's like, what is that word?

542
00:33:08,198 --> 00:33:10,138
I'm like, I think the industry needs to be different.

543
00:33:10,138 --> 00:33:14,318
It needs to be 180 degrees, completely different from the way it's operating.

544
00:33:14,378 --> 00:33:18,758
But how tough is that when you're in the midst of, it was easy for me to start a company
and say that.

545
00:33:18,838 --> 00:33:24,918
But how hard is it when you own the thing and you're in the midst of it and you're faced
with like, this isn't working.

546
00:33:25,382 --> 00:33:26,642
Yeah.

547
00:33:26,642 --> 00:33:27,662
Yeah.

548
00:33:27,702 --> 00:33:36,122
I'd like it to be harder, but I thrive on chaos, which is why I need smart people around
me.

549
00:33:36,122 --> 00:33:43,002
It's why my wife is very important in this because she, I don't think she thrives in
chaos.

550
00:33:43,002 --> 00:33:45,662
She functions through it, figures out how to solve the problems.

551
00:33:45,662 --> 00:33:52,822
I like to stir the pot and she can help kind of keep things and keep things orderly and
kind of sweep up.

552
00:33:52,902 --> 00:33:58,640
So that's not really, that's probably not the best way to describe it, but you know, it's
keeping things together.

553
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:04,499
Because I'm not afraid, I'm the one that's, know, let's put this stick in the spokes and
see what happens.

554
00:34:04,499 --> 00:34:06,590
Yeah, that what, is, what is thriving in chaos?

555
00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:07,221
What's that mean?

556
00:34:07,221 --> 00:34:16,977
Let's help all the 90 employees of your company that you're not having to look at them so
they can just listen to this little snippet is what is Eric, what is it thriving in chaos?

557
00:34:16,977 --> 00:34:17,997
What is that?

558
00:34:18,557 --> 00:34:19,828
Well, it's just solve it.

559
00:34:19,828 --> 00:34:21,869
I mean, it's just like, OK, we got to do this quick.

560
00:34:21,869 --> 00:34:23,689
Let's solve problems.

561
00:34:23,689 --> 00:34:27,991
I you know, it's like when you create that chaos, you got to quickly figure out how to
solve.

562
00:34:27,991 --> 00:34:31,443
It's like, you know, it's like you jump in a big, deep pond of water.

563
00:34:31,443 --> 00:34:32,900
got to you got two choices.

564
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:33,824
Figure out how to get out of it.

565
00:34:33,824 --> 00:34:34,544
Are you drowned?

566
00:34:34,544 --> 00:34:42,740
And I, you know, I don't like I'm not sure being my my world of chaos is something I
should take pride in, but it's just my it's kind of my reality.

567
00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:43,903
Is it because you just jump in?

568
00:34:43,903 --> 00:34:45,235
Is that what causes the chaos?

569
00:34:45,235 --> 00:34:46,919
You're just like full steam ahead.

570
00:34:46,919 --> 00:34:47,480
Let's go.

571
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:48,762
We'll figure it out.

572
00:34:48,993 --> 00:34:49,834
I can be.

573
00:34:49,834 --> 00:34:55,655
I think I can, I'm still fairly cautious with it, but I will get there, you know?

574
00:34:55,655 --> 00:34:59,776
So it's, I'm not necessarily head first, but I am going to jump in.

575
00:34:59,776 --> 00:35:00,927
I'm going to think about it.

576
00:35:00,927 --> 00:35:03,197
And I, and maybe that's a little bit of the differences.

577
00:35:03,197 --> 00:35:05,498
Like other people see it as chaos.

578
00:35:05,498 --> 00:35:14,032
And I've, I've spent the last three mornings at 3am working through this and I'm like,
okay, I haven't, I can't see where this goes, but I can see it's going somewhere.

579
00:35:14,032 --> 00:35:15,112
Let's try it.

580
00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:18,099
and that you're confident that we'll figure it out.

581
00:35:18,158 --> 00:35:25,661
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's the, I mean, think that's the difference maker of like, know,
forget job title.

582
00:35:25,661 --> 00:35:27,942
Like what is an executive do?

583
00:35:27,942 --> 00:35:30,423
Executive figures it out.

584
00:35:30,423 --> 00:35:37,085
Like, you know, that's the difference maker between, I mean, that's probably more of like
difference between a manager and a leader.

585
00:35:37,085 --> 00:35:40,576
A leader helps people figure out how to get there.

586
00:35:41,102 --> 00:35:41,943
Hmm.

587
00:35:42,265 --> 00:35:43,146
Hmm.

588
00:35:43,408 --> 00:35:50,516
What's your guys approach to developing talent, developing employees versus finding
somebody talented from the outside?

589
00:35:51,086 --> 00:35:56,452
That's, we've done both and both, you know, we've, we've failed at both and been
successful at both.

590
00:35:56,452 --> 00:36:08,122
I think one of the things we found, you know, on the brewing process, we found that like
bringing people in from the outside can create a little more tension than we want because

591
00:36:08,122 --> 00:36:10,053
we have a very defined process.

592
00:36:10,053 --> 00:36:11,866
It's, know, we we've worked hard on it.

593
00:36:11,866 --> 00:36:18,621
We've had people have built all of our processes to be able to make our product exactly
the same every time.

594
00:36:18,955 --> 00:36:29,063
And so, you know, that is, we've learned it just, we're better off kind of, you know, not
always, but for most roles, entry level roles, let's just bring in somebody fresh and

595
00:36:29,063 --> 00:36:29,485
green.

596
00:36:29,485 --> 00:36:35,950
So, you know, I think we've learned that we try and train people best we can get them
education.

597
00:36:36,051 --> 00:36:41,986
So I think that works internally, you know, a more leadership, I think that's an ongoing
thing.

598
00:36:41,986 --> 00:36:46,109
mean, you know, we have had to learn this stuff on the fly very quickly.

599
00:36:46,187 --> 00:36:59,687
And I mean, back to the career, the word leadership has always been used, but you didn't
use leadership in a business setting 10 plus years ago.

600
00:36:59,707 --> 00:37:03,447
It's very a new thing of talking about that what that means.

601
00:37:03,447 --> 00:37:08,047
And I think we're learning how to do that, how to train people.

602
00:37:08,807 --> 00:37:10,579
I come from...

603
00:37:10,579 --> 00:37:15,492
I come from a bad line of having to learn it on your own, so I'm not a great teacher on
that.

604
00:37:15,492 --> 00:37:18,701
It's like, hey, here's a book.

605
00:37:18,701 --> 00:37:19,993
See if it helps you.

606
00:37:20,825 --> 00:37:23,438
Isn't it kind of solve problems and treat people well?

607
00:37:23,887 --> 00:37:25,848
Yeah, no, mean, it is.

608
00:37:25,848 --> 00:37:31,188
mean, think that's, you know, that is like, I, I'd like to think we treat people well.

609
00:37:31,188 --> 00:37:38,701
I, know, I know, you know, there's a reality and I, you know, it's always, it's tough on
this because I, you know, there, there are people who do these interviews and they talk

610
00:37:38,701 --> 00:37:40,613
about and they paint everything's perfect.

611
00:37:40,613 --> 00:37:42,101
I make mistakes every day.

612
00:37:42,101 --> 00:37:44,714
I have regrets in conversations.

613
00:37:44,714 --> 00:37:49,826
I try and apologize, but some, sometimes they're so egregious, like, Hey, I can't even
apologize for that.

614
00:37:49,826 --> 00:37:51,208
Like, yeah, there's a few.

615
00:37:51,208 --> 00:37:52,770
Yeah, there's a few out there.

616
00:37:52,770 --> 00:37:53,991
You throw my name out there.

617
00:37:53,991 --> 00:37:56,995
There's a few that they're like that guy.

618
00:37:56,995 --> 00:37:57,676
Yeah.

619
00:37:57,676 --> 00:37:58,498
That guy.

620
00:37:58,498 --> 00:38:00,390
No, got, you got me on my bad day.

621
00:38:00,390 --> 00:38:03,103
I didn't know I did the best I could and it wasn't good enough then.

622
00:38:03,235 --> 00:38:13,295
Yeah, I was at an event a couple, it's probably been eight years ago, but I was at an
event and the guy was volunteering at our table and I made a comment.

623
00:38:13,295 --> 00:38:19,195
I was like, you the asshole of our company, the asshole owner of our company doesn't let
me do stuff like this normally.

624
00:38:19,195 --> 00:38:20,855
And he goes, yeah, I've heard he's an asshole.

625
00:38:20,855 --> 00:38:22,055
And I go, it's true.

626
00:38:22,055 --> 00:38:23,435
It's absolutely true.

627
00:38:23,435 --> 00:38:28,595
And then he found out later who I was and you know, he's apologizing.

628
00:38:28,595 --> 00:38:29,995
I'm like, no, it's okay.

629
00:38:29,995 --> 00:38:30,733
Like I mean.

630
00:38:30,733 --> 00:38:33,005
Whoever told you that had that experience with me?

631
00:38:33,005 --> 00:38:34,895
I'm not necessarily proud.

632
00:38:34,895 --> 00:38:41,054
I don't take glory in having that reputation, but I can definitely rub some people the
wrong way.

633
00:38:41,054 --> 00:38:42,736
And that's just life.

634
00:38:43,764 --> 00:38:53,473
I think the caring part is every time something like that happens, I don't necessarily
believe them in their opinion, but I do bring it in to evaluate it.

635
00:38:54,435 --> 00:38:56,026
That's where I'm better at now.

636
00:38:56,285 --> 00:38:58,735
Yeah, no, I think that's good way put it.

637
00:38:58,735 --> 00:39:06,971
mean, you know, just like any, when you have a retrospective, you you think back on a
conversation like, I should have said that differently.

638
00:39:06,971 --> 00:39:13,463
I know my point was valid, but you know, if I had said that differently, we could have
ended the conversation there.

639
00:39:13,463 --> 00:39:17,514
We all could have moved on instead of, you know, ending in tears.

640
00:39:17,608 --> 00:39:20,547
Instead of the guy at the table's like, yeah, I he's an asshole.

641
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:22,122
Yeah, exactly.

642
00:39:22,579 --> 00:39:30,599
Um, what, um, your dad was really successful when it's so, it's so ironic that this came
full circle and we'll jump off here in a few minutes.

643
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:34,759
Cause I want you to come down from Columbus and come in the studio and we'll talk about
all the things.

644
00:39:34,759 --> 00:39:36,599
Cause you know, beards are valued here.

645
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:39,799
I don't have one, but they're valued when they come through here.

646
00:39:39,799 --> 00:39:44,639
Um, it's so funny that your grandpa and people, you knew your uncles were entrepreneurs.

647
00:39:44,979 --> 00:39:46,879
Then your dad probably made six figures.

648
00:39:46,879 --> 00:39:49,541
So he made too much to leave the golden handcuffs.

649
00:39:49,541 --> 00:39:55,143
even though it probably wasn't the most satisfying career, but when you went to start the
business, he lent you money.

650
00:39:56,488 --> 00:39:56,878
Yeah.

651
00:39:56,878 --> 00:39:58,551
With that whole cycle.

652
00:39:58,929 --> 00:40:02,201
That's how, mean, like creating opportunity.

653
00:40:02,201 --> 00:40:04,792
And that's what my dad did for me.

654
00:40:04,792 --> 00:40:11,029
mean, it's like, I was scrapping trying to figure out how to do this.

655
00:40:11,029 --> 00:40:19,874
he always said he would help me, but I had like, I mean, this opportunity came up kind of
overnight and it was like, he got there and helped me out.

656
00:40:19,874 --> 00:40:23,474
And we figure out how to jump into this business.

657
00:40:23,474 --> 00:40:28,246
and had great partners who, mean, we initially bought 40 % of the business.

658
00:40:28,246 --> 00:40:34,128
kind of, I had that like, incredible opportunity that, you know, is more or less the
American dream, right?

659
00:40:34,128 --> 00:40:36,452
I mean, how do you get into business?

660
00:40:36,612 --> 00:40:46,096
I mean, sure, sure there's people that absolutely bootstrap it, take their, you know,
their paper out to their, to the lawn mowing business, to, you know, maybe becoming a

661
00:40:46,096 --> 00:40:48,177
bartender to owning the bar.

662
00:40:48,998 --> 00:40:49,838
But.

663
00:40:49,838 --> 00:40:51,238
how do you really get by?

664
00:40:51,238 --> 00:40:52,938
Somebody's got to help you along the way.

665
00:40:52,938 --> 00:40:58,638
And I was very fortunate that, you know, my parents from the get-go, they helped me.

666
00:40:59,498 --> 00:41:03,718
We lived in a, you know, pretty conservative yet.

667
00:41:03,718 --> 00:41:05,897
My parents were like, go do what you want to do.

668
00:41:05,897 --> 00:41:15,078
I mean, you know, when I think back and realize what my parents let me do, I mean, you
know, we started the conversation before recording with your Jerry Garcia reference, but

669
00:41:15,078 --> 00:41:16,512
like that's...

670
00:41:16,512 --> 00:41:22,748
I was 16 years old and my parents let me get on a bus and go to Philadelphia to go see the
Grateful Dead.

671
00:41:22,748 --> 00:41:27,742
Just disappeared for two days and it was like that, that changed everything in my world.

672
00:41:27,742 --> 00:41:33,547
was like, and I looked back and realized, yes, you know, it's like I walked into this
community and I'm like, I love these people.

673
00:41:33,547 --> 00:41:34,558
This is great.

674
00:41:34,558 --> 00:41:36,659
And my parents just didn't even bat an eye.

675
00:41:36,659 --> 00:41:37,520
Like, yeah, go for it.

676
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:37,930
Go do it.

677
00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:39,442
This what you want to go do.

678
00:41:39,442 --> 00:41:40,112
Have fun.

679
00:41:40,112 --> 00:41:43,385
And, know, now I tell my wife, it's not my fault.

680
00:41:43,385 --> 00:41:44,654
It's, you know, the last.

681
00:41:44,654 --> 00:41:48,783
35 years of my life have been dedicated to this band for one reason.

682
00:41:48,783 --> 00:41:50,398
It's all my parents' fault.

683
00:41:52,407 --> 00:41:53,549
isn't that funny?

684
00:41:53,549 --> 00:41:56,472
You know, even though I didn't know you were a grateful dead fan.

685
00:41:56,472 --> 00:41:57,232
Yeah.

686
00:41:57,232 --> 00:41:59,774
We tell the world who we are when we show up.

687
00:42:01,096 --> 00:42:01,877
Right.

688
00:42:01,877 --> 00:42:02,698
I just felt it.

689
00:42:02,698 --> 00:42:04,880
I'm like dude, you're invoking.

690
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,722
So, know it.

691
00:42:06,722 --> 00:42:11,256
I think we should be who we wanna be but take responsibility for that's what we're telling
the world.

692
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:14,051
Yeah, no, I tell her stuff all the time.

693
00:42:14,051 --> 00:42:17,074
I'm like, look, I look like a jackass, but I've earned it.

694
00:42:17,074 --> 00:42:24,279
Like, you know, there was a there was a period of my life where I was pretty cleaned up
and and, you know, trying to play the corporate part.

695
00:42:24,279 --> 00:42:27,031
And it it only lasted a couple of years.

696
00:42:27,031 --> 00:42:35,148
And it probably in the in the in the middle of all that, I had a couple of people have
conversations like, hey, you know, like, you're not really looking the part.

697
00:42:35,148 --> 00:42:39,375
And I've I've I've earned the ability to kind of get like.

698
00:42:39,375 --> 00:42:52,407
I could get away with this in my early 20s and in my early 30s is, I haven't shaved in 20
plus years and I've earned the ability to do that.

699
00:42:52,407 --> 00:42:53,428
I have to be aware.

700
00:42:53,428 --> 00:42:59,652
I know when I work on, was at an event last week with a buddy, tight little corporate
environment.

701
00:42:59,652 --> 00:43:01,533
I know everybody's looking at me.

702
00:43:01,857 --> 00:43:09,077
think, um, just be, see, I think what we're, we were misinterpreting the word authentic
word authentic in 2025.

703
00:43:09,077 --> 00:43:10,817
Everybody's like, well, I want everybody to be authentic.

704
00:43:10,817 --> 00:43:11,297
It's like, hold on.

705
00:43:11,297 --> 00:43:13,577
I don't think you really want everybody to be authentic.

706
00:43:13,577 --> 00:43:19,697
Cause if we were, if we were authentic about what we felt about everybody, about the
world, we'd have a lot of conflict.

707
00:43:19,697 --> 00:43:23,757
But I think the authentic is, just, just tell me who you are.

708
00:43:24,517 --> 00:43:25,637
Just tell me who you are.

709
00:43:25,637 --> 00:43:28,397
It's up to you if you want to just tell me who you are what we're dealing with.

710
00:43:28,397 --> 00:43:30,965
So I can decide, do I want to work with you?

711
00:43:30,965 --> 00:43:32,450
Do I want to have a friendship with you?

712
00:43:32,450 --> 00:43:32,932
I want to?

713
00:43:32,932 --> 00:43:34,065
Just let me know.

714
00:43:34,065 --> 00:43:38,149
And I'm not going to judge you, but just so there's no bullshit going on around here.

715
00:43:38,241 --> 00:43:44,801
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's that hard wiring part that you just got to figure out like,
do people want to get shit done?

716
00:43:44,801 --> 00:43:50,381
That's, you know, I mean, that's, that's, that's a core value for us is getting shit done.

717
00:43:50,381 --> 00:43:52,661
And it's like, I mean, to me, that's our number one hiring thing.

718
00:43:52,661 --> 00:43:59,541
And when I look around our company, you know, I always joke, but we don't have to let, I
don't have to be part of HR.

719
00:43:59,541 --> 00:44:02,441
don't have to be part of getting people who don't want to work out.

720
00:44:02,441 --> 00:44:06,905
Our staff does, you know, I mean, you show up and work the canning line and you don't want
to work.

721
00:44:07,167 --> 00:44:08,819
they're not gonna tolerate it for very long.

722
00:44:08,819 --> 00:44:10,551
They're gonna let you know you're not very welcome.

723
00:44:10,551 --> 00:44:13,264
that's, you know, that's there.

724
00:44:13,264 --> 00:44:13,895
mean, it's hard.

725
00:44:13,895 --> 00:44:21,383
You can interview, you can miss out an interview, but you can't hide that for very long
once you're on the job.

726
00:44:21,793 --> 00:44:22,813
Well, I could talk to you forever.

727
00:44:22,813 --> 00:44:26,293
We do have to get you down here, but one final one here.

728
00:44:26,293 --> 00:44:28,613
Everybody should go out.

729
00:44:28,613 --> 00:44:31,893
I watched a video before the interview you all have out on YouTube.

730
00:44:31,893 --> 00:44:36,753
I think you can find it on your website, but it's a good video about three minutes long,
three and a half minutes long.

731
00:44:36,753 --> 00:44:41,193
It's you and your wife, but it's just talking about the business and about the journey.

732
00:44:41,193 --> 00:44:41,953
It's a good video.

733
00:44:41,953 --> 00:44:45,413
If you want to get to know who you guys are, it's a cool video.

734
00:44:47,113 --> 00:44:50,033
what question?

735
00:44:50,517 --> 00:44:52,620
Are you trying to answer right now?

736
00:44:52,762 --> 00:44:54,163
What's the question?

737
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:57,472
Wow, that's a, you know what, I don't normally get stumped.

738
00:44:57,472 --> 00:45:02,714
think, I mean, I think on a personal level, what does the future look like me?

739
00:45:02,714 --> 00:45:09,586
You know, I mean, I'm at like that turn, not turning point in my career, but it's like,
what's the next step for me?

740
00:45:09,586 --> 00:45:15,757
The day to day, how do I hand that off and get much more involved in the future of the
business?

741
00:45:15,757 --> 00:45:20,679
And I think, you know, that's that next step in the business.

742
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:22,119
Like I've gone from,

743
00:45:22,355 --> 00:45:26,108
Brewmaster to day-to-day president.

744
00:45:26,108 --> 00:45:35,596
How do I get to that next step of really driving that long-term vision of the company,
making sure we're, you know, are we pursuing the right opportunities?

745
00:45:35,596 --> 00:45:46,988
So I think that's what I'm really focused on is how do we get the company financially
healthy and how do I get to a place where I have the freedom to grow the business to what

746
00:45:46,988 --> 00:45:48,259
it's really the real potential.

747
00:45:48,259 --> 00:45:49,846
And that is...

748
00:45:49,846 --> 00:45:55,232
mean, to me, that's that entrepreneurial step and everybody, it's really hard to get out
of the day to day.

749
00:45:55,232 --> 00:45:58,824
How do you, I mean, and I'm sure you're the same way in the real estate.

750
00:45:58,824 --> 00:46:09,583
It's like you're hustling and putting out fires and how do you get from that to just being
able to foresee the fires and navigate people around them?

751
00:46:11,123 --> 00:46:16,728
think you figured it out, finding great people and empowering them.

752
00:46:16,728 --> 00:46:20,491
And then you can be above it all and you can really help them build and grow the business.

753
00:46:21,001 --> 00:46:23,961
Yeah, it sure doesn't hurt it.

754
00:46:24,383 --> 00:46:25,083
Yeah.

755
00:46:25,123 --> 00:46:25,863
Yeah.

756
00:46:25,863 --> 00:46:27,543
Um thanks for joining us man.

757
00:46:27,543 --> 00:46:28,323
Columbus Brewing.

758
00:46:28,323 --> 00:46:34,263
If you go through the city, the great city of Columbus, I'm kind of partial to our
Cincinnati down here.

759
00:46:34,263 --> 00:46:38,023
I'm kind of partial to Northern Kentucky but I'll let y'all think your flatlands are
valid.

760
00:46:38,023 --> 00:46:39,783
I'll I'll let you think that.

761
00:46:39,783 --> 00:46:41,277
I gotta get a little dig in there.

762
00:46:41,277 --> 00:46:43,118
Yeah, I appreciate that.

763
00:46:43,118 --> 00:46:45,597
That was much nicer than my digs on Cincinnati.

764
00:46:45,597 --> 00:46:47,604
and we bring the Cincinnati Heat.

765
00:46:47,604 --> 00:46:49,598
ahead, come on, give us the end of this.

766
00:46:50,016 --> 00:46:53,195
I will not go there because I want to sell a lot of beer in Cincinnati.

767
00:46:53,195 --> 00:46:54,671
So I love Cincinnati.

768
00:46:54,671 --> 00:46:55,504
thank you for joining us.

769
00:46:55,504 --> 00:46:57,588
Hey, what's the quick plug for finding you guys?

770
00:46:57,588 --> 00:46:58,561
I talked about your video.

771
00:46:58,561 --> 00:46:59,212
What's the plug?

772
00:46:59,212 --> 00:47:02,980
Just one place, one location to come and check you guys out.

773
00:47:03,006 --> 00:47:08,353
Yeah, mean, think, you know, mean, Columbus Brewing Company, ColumbusBrewing.com is there.

774
00:47:08,353 --> 00:47:16,503
And, you know, we've got a fantastic restaurant on the east side of town that I think, I
mean, beautiful building, great space, incredible beers on tap.

775
00:47:16,503 --> 00:47:22,161
So, you know, I invite everybody to come join us there or just find our beer in local
grocery store.

776
00:47:22,711 --> 00:47:23,283
You're the man.

777
00:47:23,283 --> 00:47:24,657
Thanks for joining us,

778
00:47:24,877 --> 00:47:25,406
Well, thank you.

779
00:47:25,406 --> 00:47:26,536
Appreciate it.