#149 - Building Together: Kass & Mike Lazerow on Love, Leadership & “Shoveling $h!t” | The Necessary Entrepreneur with Mark Perkins

0:00 So the whole idea of shoveling shit isn't this, like, you have to give up your happiness in this, like, beginner's mind and, like, childlike way that you approach the world. We've learned that, like, hard work, focus, transparency, family first are kind of our values and superpowers.

0:41 All right, you guys, welcome back to another episode here of The Necessary Entrepreneur. Today, just have a couple awesome people. If you would have seen the previous seven minute interaction, you could tell that this is gonna be a fun day. ah But I welcome uh Cass and Mike Lazaro. We're gonna do a short introduction. We're gonna get rolling because all the extra time that we have with them, gaining their perspective for the past few decades of business and entrepreneurship and a new book they have written, I think it's really gonna unlock some things in our minds. So a quote from your all's book, your new book, Shoveling Shit. And I just don't love the topic, but shoveling shit a love story, at the end of shit, there's a dollar sign for the S and there's an exclamation point for the I. I wanna dig into that on why you were so brave and so bold to do that.

1:22 But a quote from your book, what the book's really about is there's no worst way to spend your day than being an entrepreneur. you show up, shit hits the fan, you never know what's going to go wrong. I think that's a little bit of a paraphrase, but I went, oh my gosh, I've just looked at the last 22 years of my life. So if that's really the highlight of the book, why is that statement and that quote so significant from the things you guys have learned over the past 30 years in business? Well, first of all, thanks for having us. I appreciate it. ah To answer that question, I think it's because like we wanted to tell all the other business owners out there, all the other entrepreneurs that we hear them, we validate you and to show the future entrepreneurs that this isn't glamorous.

2:19 You you might idealize that this could be the best life you've ever had and it's going to go so easy and I have all this extra time. But the truth is you get punched in the face a million times a day. You're looking for that one chip in like golf that gets you back coming back the next day to get punched in the face again. So we, we do say it's, it's the worst way to spend your time, but there's really nothing we'd rather do. So how does this make sense that if it's so difficult and it's not glamorous, because everything we see online, especially with social media now, boy, there's a lot of people that make it look glamorous. um Then why do we keep signing up for this?

3:01 Well, I think the main reason is when you ask an entrepreneur, how are you doing that? Oh, we're crushing it. They're like, are you really like, how are you doing personally? It's like, oh, I'm falling apart and clients are leaving and employees are, you know, not happy. And, you know, my marriage is falling apart and I'm just kind of like, this company is all consuming. Well, have you thought about doing something else? No, I love it. So it's this positive part of like the best entrepreneurs. live the imbalanced life and there's no other way they could see themselves living their life, primarily because it's where they find their purpose. It's work that they can't wait to get out of bed on some days and other days they just want to hide and not get out of bed because things are going so miserably.

3:48 But the idea of sitting behind a desk from nine to five and working for someone else, that is the real fear of their life. So that you you mentioned imbalanced life, you know, it's a hot topic over the past three to five to seven years about balance. You just stated it's an imbalanced life. What's that look like? It looks like you are missing out on things. There's lots of sacrifices that you don't feel like you're nailing it in any one department. Let's just call it like that. you you're missing out on a lot of friendships. You're not nurturing your own family relationships.

4:31 Your parents could be mad at you for not seeing that you're not seeing them for a while. And, you know, you're making many decisions as you can as quickly as you can and the hard part is that there's no balance there's only like integration you're literally integrating a very full work life into whatever personal life you have and unfortunately you just have to make decisions and know that there will be sacrifices and there will be a lot of chaos and a lot of mess. Do you think this book is I just reflect on my past 20 and 22 years and daily I just laugh at myself I find myself just laughing at the things I thought I learned or I'd convinced myself two weeks ago like I have that thing conquered and I'm like here Here's something again.

5:19 Do you find this? Is this almost a really good dictionary or encyclopedia for those budding first-time entrepreneurs? Because you guys are in this world of investment now of really investing and growing businesses em Is this a pathway? Is it a dictionary? Is it an encyclopedia? of entrepreneurship. Those that it's not a, you know, we didn't want to write a textbook. We didn't want to write something. It's like, do this, do that. Like this is the way to do it. Things are always evolving. We used to be the young person in the room. We're now kind of the, least I am the gray haired old person. Cass is an incredible, you know, person who dyes her hair. She looks beautiful as always.

6:03 yeah, we speak the truth here. The Cass and Mike. um And so, you know, when I look at what we've done as a couple, I forgot the question. my God, it's It's just when I said hey, is it a dictionary or an encyclopedia? if you had any of those things, um this is the 50 cheat codes that we learned the hard way. It's not exhaustive. We're still making new mistakes. We're still learning new things. But these are the 50 things that we put into one book, but we didn't do it as a textbook.

6:43 We wrapped it in the real stories and the vulnerability that we have. you know, heard the book has, you know, is very vulnerable. It comes from each of these are personal mistakes that oftentimes had consequences. Taking money from family who ended up wanting to sue us or more, you know, really not like us or hiring the wrong people or building, you know, having things happen in our work environment that was toxic for the culture or starting businesses that your spouse says maybe you shouldn't. And by starting businesses, I mean me and Cass not loving it and that business being a huge failure to date for a lot of different reasons.

7:28 And so it's a quick read. It's lessons are most important lessons, how to put cult and culture, how to get people in the right position, how to focus an organization. Each of those came from a moment of failure where we learned the hard way. The, look at you too, I'm sure some people ask you about your relationship and your marriage and how do you make it, but there's a lot of questions I'd have around it because it's almost like you've gone against what the world has told us in so many ways and you guys have just crushed life. And no matter, said entrepreneurs say we're crushing it, but you guys have the receipts now. You know the skeletons, you know the things that you failed with, but the fact is, is that you are now living the life that when so many people start, they look at and say, that's it.

8:14 And so along that path, when I heard you say you started the business that Cass didn't want you to start. Cass, how do you not play Monday morning quarterback when it fails? I play Monday morning quarterback all the time. I mean, I want to make sure that, you know, I'm very clear here that Mike and I have a relationship that started off, you know, with immense respect for each other's talents, me and the operation side, Mike and the kind of visionary product, um, strategy side. And so. know, we would come back while we were dating and from different jobs and just ask each other things.

8:54 It was like our love language. It was our mutual respect for someone who has the same work ethic, who has the same desire to improve. And part of what comes with that is this brutal, authentic communication, which we've always had. And I think That has been like a strength of ours, a superpower, if you will. And we Monday morning quarterback all the time. I mean, that's what an operator does. Like there's no getting around that. I'm looking at 80 paths a day with every decision. And if I get it wrong, yes, it gets me closer to figuring it out, but I am not happy.

9:37 And so I'm going to talk that out. So Mike, what do you do with the ego then when that happens? Well, I think all of us who are married, you don't have to work with your spouse, learn a lot about yourself through the lens of your spouse. And if you have a great spouse, trying to get you to be a better person, happier, perform in whatever area better. so Cass is not passive aggressive. She's very aggressive. And so I mess up and this was hard for me at the beginning. I first took it as criticism, but then I took it as kind of really constructive feedback.

10:20 So the way you spoke to that person, you were too short, you weren't listening, you need to slow it down, be more proactive, not reactive, right? That was a very common discussion as I was a young entrepreneur and Cass would see me talk to people and not be the most patient. mean, my weakness is sometimes my mind wanders, I'm not I'm I'm not listening. I really have to dial in. You saw it earlier, right? I lost, I forgot the question. So I've learned a lot about myself of how my actions impact her and other people. And typically, the feedback is very constructive.

11:01 Now there are times we've had knockout, drag out fights, right? Where you're just like, fucking, I'm running away. But I'm like, where am I gonna go? There's nowhere else to go. Like this is where I'm supposed to be. So turn around, go back in, say sorry, you're an asshole, like me, and take responsibility, come up with a plan to not do it again. And I think the best relationships, business or otherwise, you take responsibility for your actions, you always have the person's back, you're trying to get the best out of the other person, right, and get them to a better place. And I frankly think it's easier. with married couples who are working together.

11:44 Because you have the same goal. We want to create a life that not only can we support, but has whatever we put on our plate. For us, it was kids. Other people, maybe it isn't. If you want to travel, if you want to give back to your community, whatever's on your plate, working with your spouse to make that happen, I think, is just an incredible thing. Cash, you seemed like you had something to say about that. I I, I look, Mike has evolved. hope I've involved as well, but, um, I think he's right. And, know, the best partnerships out there, again, whether married or not, they get everything on the kitchen table, right?

12:30 They sit down, they hash it all out. There's no resentment. but one of the formulas that's worked for us that works for some of the greatest partnerships out there is that we don't have overlapping skills. So, know, Mark, you might say like, my God, they work together 24 seven. I don't work on the same things. Right. And what's, what's amazing about it is I implicitly trust that he will make the right decisions in his lane and he trusts me to do so, which means that we have this synchronization and we can move very quickly as a result of that. And I think that was a huge strength when we were founding companies and running them.

13:13 So when you guys now are investing in companies, you've invested in, it's tough to even track this. Is it a stock investment or is it actually an investment through your time? But you've invested in over a hundred companies, I believe. And I don't know if that's right or wrong, but even if it was 90, it's a ton. 70s. Yeah. And so when you come into those environments and what, I think what everybody can learn from your all's experience and what you've done, learn before you're in the room of the pitch. Like there can be more that can be learned from reading this book and listening to moments like this from you all to not necessarily maybe pitch you all, but learn how you need to be and who you need to be and what you need to be to pitch others because you're probably listening to a similar metric on others if they're evaluating like, I investing in this person?

13:59 What's the percentage? What level of investment? So is there an it factor out here? Is there that when you're evaluating these things? Is it an approach? Is it a person? When you see it, If there is, so is there an it factor with people or businesses? And when you see it, what is it? Yeah, so I'm also I'm usually on the front end of investments for us. So I'm more public. I'm out there. I'm networking and meeting entrepreneurs. So usually starts with me. And at a minimum, there are six things that go into what we call the go gauge, which is what we need to see to green light and investment.

14:40 And we actually put it in the book for entrepreneurs. If you're thinking about a business, think about your business in the you know, looking at it through this lens of what we call the go gauge, which is very easily communicate on one piece of paper, what's the product? Why is it different? Which if it's not different, you're gonna be really, it's gonna really hard to get it out there. How big is the market? We'd look at how many customers and what are they paying? There's a lot of people overestimate the size of the market. So if you're in the golf market, Ryder Cup is going on and you don't own teacups. That's $60 billion of the market you're never gonna target, right?

15:23 And then it comes down to sales and marketing. How are people gonna learn about it, which is huge. How are you gonna get the product to a customer, which is number five. And then number six is the unit economics. We're very simple finance people. What's it gonna cost to make the product or service? What are you selling it for? What's left over at the end, right? It's your margin. And can you run the organization and do the marketing and everything else with that? Now, we don't talk as much about the it factor in the book because we're writing to entrepreneurs and investors and who you are is just table stakes.

16:06 So we don't partner with people before we really understand the person, what's motivating them, are they good people? And so. Yeah, we just met an AI entrepreneur who I really like and Cass really likes who is self-aware, knows what he doesn't know, is reaching out for help. What he knows, the technology and what he's bringing to the table is very unique, but this humble attitude we really appreciate. And we think that some of our best investments, whether it's Mike Cesario at Liquid Death or Walter Driver. who sold his gaming company for $5 billion in cash a few years ago, or Erica Jane at Healthy.

16:50 They're very humble. They know what they know, they know what they don't know, and they're able to communicate it clearly to attract not only investors, but more importantly, team members. Those are the people who really make the business work. Investors screw people up half the time. Why is that? Why do investors screw people up? So I was talking to a friend last night, in Michael Loeb, who's one of the great New York City entrepreneurs and we're in a deal together and he's been very helpful and incredible CEO. And we went through a list of suggestions that VCs made that were implemented.

17:37 were God awful ideas. I'm not going to name the VCs, but they come to the meeting saying, you've got to do this. I have this other company that's doing this. And if you have a membership that has this price, it's going to work and blah, blah, blah. And the founder's like, I don't know. He went to Harvard. He has a lot of money. I guess this person's never run a company that I'm thinking about. And for whatever reason, a lot of VCs think they're the smartest in the room when they've never really done anything but like. accumulate some cash to then invest. And it's very dangerous because if you get money from someone and they have convictions and their ideas, you naturally want to most good entrepreneurs take that advice, even though deep down their gut is screaming, this fucking sucks.

18:30 Like this is the worst advice I've ever heard. But then you spend two weeks talking yourself out of that and finding the whole company. in trouble and you've burned money, you've burned relationships. And it's just for whatever reason, that dynamic of like, I think about your business once a month as an investor and I'm going to give you advice and I want you to accept it like I'm baby Jesus, right? Like that dynamic is very dangerous. Cass, you on the operational side. I just, it's, really cool seeing even your two backgrounds, even though you're sitting in the same location. Of course it looks like you're in the science lab. You're, you're, you're behind, you're, you're behind the scenes pulling the strings.

19:12 Um, and Mike's out here. Like, can we just have some fun? Can I put my fish hat back on? Like, can we do this? You guys are like, I think Mark, you literally, yeah, you literally just like got us in like 10 seconds. So, when you guys make an investment, um you know, there's all these ways. We hear the gurus and, you know, Charlie and Warren and they buy a business and step away, buy a business and let the managers run it and they supposedly, I don't know if this is the way it happens, but they just want an update, one update a year. He buys businesses on one sheet of paper and just give me one update a year. If that's been so successful for them.

19:53 Is it just the nature of entrepreneurs and investors that we just try to reinvent this all the time for some reason? from operationally, Cass, like where's your brain with this? How involved do you get in the business to give advice? But also, how do you know how to step back so you don't ruin them like this VC we're talking about? You know, when we invest in a company, we offer our support. And I think we're known as very supportive investors because we've done it. Like Mike said, we have been in the trenches. We've run many companies. We've sold many companies. We've had really lows. We've had failures, you name it. So we're never going to force an entrepreneur to listen to us or, you know, shove our ideas down their throat.

20:40 Most of the time they do come to either Mike or me for our specific expertise. And I think that is how we can partner with companies so that they can get through the downside, you know, all the, all the little valleys faster. And I think that's what they appreciate. So, um, how do you avoid it? You gotta be really careful who you choose as your outside money, right? And what we're seeing now is a lot of companies don't need outside money and they're able to start companies with fewer people, way fewer engineers.

21:20 And I think for us, it's a great thing, right? Because that entrepreneur is keeping true to him or herself and is able to run and really make money, right? Get the money they need through instant sales. This world's changing fast and I think I saw the CEO of a chat last week or two weeks ago say it maybe it's something that's just been going viral for a few months, but he said there's going to be a time here in our near near future that one person starts a company in this new AI world and that company becomes worth a billion dollars. What's your brain do when you hear that?

22:03 I mean, I believe it and I've been saying that longer than, you know, I think Sam has been saying that for longer. And the reason is because if you look at, you know, how easy it is to, so take a company that, you know, let's come up with any company, right? Like dog horoscopes, right? We're going to provide a horoscope to your dog. You build, you know, the website with frame AI in like 30 minutes, literally. You go to lovable or cursor replicates that I want an app that provides, you know, iPhone, Android provides daily horoscopes for dogs charge 99 cents.

22:45 It does it. You then work with one of the AI BDRs, the business development or marketing automation services. So it's up and running. You're spending all your day now marketing it. Right. You're calling up dog influencers. This isn't a company we're launching. I'm just like, it's an example. Call up an influencer and say, Hey, five grand. And you do a, and do a video in your voice about how this revolutionized the relationship you have with your dogs. You now understand the dog's mission and purpose on earth. And all of a sudden you have like a money machine as you sleep.

23:27 Now, is that a billion dollar idea? No. But could you do. horoscopes for plumbers and electricians and NFL players and like a thousand horoscope apps. I don't know. Maybe. And all of a sudden you have 150 million of subscriptions. So it's like a renewing business because everyone wants to know what's in store for their future and get meaning out of their life. And you're doing it in a very automated way. We have a buddy media, you know, partner of ours and one of our engineers who's doing this right now. Like we've seen many young people who are just building.

24:08 They're not like, let me go talk to VCs. Like this should exist. I'm gonna build it. I'm gonna market it. And when it doesn't work, I'm gonna pivot until they get cashflow. So if they don't need money, what they need is they need your brains and your brilliance and your expertise, right? Your connections, your partnerships, your relationships. Maybe, yeah, maybe it just, really just depends on the business model, but we're there to help, right? we're really there to like, most of the time we're just validating great ideas and gut feelings. If we are coming up with a business model and the plan, spending two hours a month with the business, there's something wrong because we're in the space business.

24:59 We're in the water business. We're in software, we're in healthcare, we're in, uh gambling, so betting. We know none of those industries. And if we are the ones pushing the company forward, 100 % is going to fail. I was in studio. We have a podcast studio when people come to Cincinnati here. Um and we were in studio and I'll have some guys in that were some actors and some movies like the Black Panther and the Great Debaters back in the day. So, they were in Cincinnati doing some things and it's the first time we ever had canned water in studio and you know what brand I'm talking about.

25:43 I said, I looked at my team and I said, what do you all think we're cool? I haven't ever paid for branded water in a can and I said, okay, I'm gonna do it. Take me down, take me to this world and I cracked it open. It's got the gold top. looks like I'm drinking a beer. Maybe that's a part of the thing and I taste it and I said, tastes like water and I looked down and I said, that's a billion dollar brand. Yeah, more than a billion. So, that's mind numbing to the simple minded Midwest born Mark. But it's not that, I mean. So a lot of the stuff we love in life make no sense.

26:24 Like we're beyond as a society what we need, right? Like, you know, we figured that out in the 1900s. It's what we, lot of the stuff that we love is just stuff we want, whether it's music, whether it's brands, whether it's experiences. And Liquid Death to me was the combination of not only great marketing with a product that is kind of everywhere. and the building block of life. But it also had a mission, which was like, let's get plastic bottles out of the ocean, right? Which was important for a lot of people. And it was important for Live Nation. Live Nation's trying to go plastic free. So they partnered with Liquid Death and helped grow that business.

27:08 And so when we invested before they even launched, so this was like pre-seed almost or seed, we had no idea it was going to be like multi-billion dollar business, right? But that core of like, this is cool. This has a purpose. It feels good to drink. I don't drink alcohol, but it kind of feels like when I used to crack open a beer, the ritual is important. so, you know, I'm not saying we knew that it was going to be as big as it's going to be, but for a seed investor that seed investment, that founder, we knew because he worked for our friend, Gary Vaynerchuk.

27:50 was top five marketers we'd ever met in our life by far. Number one was Les Wunderman. Had his own agency, may he rest in peace, died at like 91. He created the 800 number for FedEx. He created the loyalty program for American Express. This guy was like real marketer. Mike was up there. What if you were to go back to like 98 when you founded launched golf.com and then Buddy Media and some other thing if if you went back to those businesses, I want to make sure I get the the true sense of the question down. It's not would you do anything different today because you would because it's business environments.

28:35 But the question comes from a place. Would you do anything different based on what you learned launching those businesses? Or would you just do it different because it's just a different time? I think a combo of both. So when I started gov.com, you know, I didn't have that go gauge filter, right? So in the end, the, you know, the TAM, the total addressable market was much smaller than I had anticipated. Right. And at that time, it was the big boom of the internet, web 1.0.

29:18 And companies like, you know, E toys were going public for, you know, billions. So, um, I think that's kind of something I should have looked at. I think there's a due diligence issue when we first sold the company that, maybe I would have, maybe I would have done a little bit better. Um, I think we did a good job, but we should have like picked our head up a little bit and, and. Um, just paid attention to what was going on around. And then of course, if this is the time now, you know, I'm not sure we would have started golf.com or, or if we did, it would have been a very different kind of business.

30:01 Hmm. Because of the time or because of you earned? Both. Mike, do you agree? So. Yeah, I actually agree with all that. And I think that the golf.com business was of the time because we had a thesis and the thesis was the internet would go from these very broad platforms, Yahoo, Excite, Look Smart, all these like kind of guides, like human curated to vertical sites. And we're going to start with golf. And then we're like, let's just focus on like rich people. Like let's go to wine. I think health was one of them.

30:41 We never got beyond golf. because we got stuck in golf. That business today in the media business just isn't going to work, right? Because of websites, we got to mobile and social, which was the next wave which we participated in. And that's where we made our largest exit was Buddy Media. That was close to a billion dollar sale to Salesforce. And then you had on top of mobile and social. crypto, AI, all these other new things. And each of them have different models. So when Mark Benioff started a software company, was all about salespeople.

31:23 Like the more salespeople you have, the more revenue. Now a lot of those salespeople are kind of automated outbound and it's product led growth. People sign up for Slack or they sign up for a service for free and then pay. And so I just think every You know, these industries build on top of each other and you have to take advantage of all the technologies, whether it's the 1900s and coal and trains and steam engines or, you know, computing that was created really for data centers for SaaS businesses now being used for massive server farms for AI.

32:05 So what's your thesis in 2025? I mean, the overarching thesis for the venture side of our business, we have venture and private equity, private equity, we're buying cashflow businesses. On the venture side is that productivity drives stock price. And the more productive a company is, the higher the margin and the higher the stock price. We have never seen a productivity tool like AI. And so there will be very little money made in the grand scheme of things from investing directly in AI.

32:47 We're in an AI bubble. These valuations are out of control. These multi-billion dollar companies, I don't see how all of them, I'm not talking about OpenAI and ChatGPT and some of the ones that are like there. But if you look at all of the money, the trillions flowing in, there are not enough exits. However, If you own a law firm, if you own an accounting firm, if you own an executive search firm like we own, if you're running a hospital, if you're running a podcast network, AI is how you expand your margins and get time back for you and your employees. And so we're looking at a lot of solutions to kind of help you make more money or save time or live a better life with productivity tools.

33:38 I bet you're more excited in 2025 right now. You're as excited or more excited than you've ever been about entrepreneurship and business. I'm personally excited and scared because everyone, because of AI, everyone has companies. Like our son has an AI company. maybe it's just cause we're in, like we spent a lot of time in New York and Chicago where our daughter goes to school and you know, San Francisco, LA, Boston, Austin. Like it's, it is the best time to be an entrepreneur. I'm not so sure it's the best time to be an investor, which is part of our job right now. That's why you're scared. So the scared part came from that mentality. Yeah, like as a capital allocator, which we have been, it is getting as hard as ever to do what you're supposed to do, which is generate returns, right?

34:32 You put a dollar into a company, you should get three plus out. Not all of them work. So hopefully enough work to put you in the money, but companies need less money. They're more money. They're more companies and I could do five deals a day based on our deal flow. Literally the stuff coming in, all of it mentions AI. There are unlimited deals to do. That was different 10 years ago, where there are very few deals actually that were good. I'm not talking about bad deals. I'm talking about like, wow, this is awesome. Like I love this. This needs to exist. So are the, I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about casting you this scared word.

35:15 I'm like, you're so analytical, you eliminate the fear. But then I'm thinking that Mike on the front end, I'm like, don't look like a guy that's scared of anything. I mean, yeah, it's, it's funny what we both are scared of. It's very different things, right? So, you know, and it is because we're in different lanes. And, um you know, I will say that the best entrepreneurs in the world, can operate with fear, they can operate in the storm of uncertainty. And that's something that Mike and I have developed. It's this, you know, distress tolerance that's so high. And we can say things like, Yeah, I'm scared about this or like this really, I can't figure it out.

35:59 And it doesn't stop us. That's the difference. Um, and you know, Mike will look into the future and he's, know, big picture. I'm looking at pathways, right? What, how do I optimize decisions? How do I, how do I move the chess pieces up the board? How do I build incredible teams? How do I help our portfolio companies, you know, continue to communicate when there are 350 people, right? What do we learn? What can we share with? as I'm this new AI world, is it pretty much going to, it's what happened with Pinterest with creatives back in the day. remember when Pinterest rolled up and there were creatives in my space and they were a little bit mad because they're like, now it's going to level everyone up on creative.

36:45 Cause you don't have to be the one that comes up with the idea. And it seems like what AI is going to do. It has a chance to level up the people that had some missing parts because then I'm like, is this just going to be a marketing and branding game? If we all have access to the same things. Is that what this is gonna be? Yeah, in many ways, like when execution of the actual what you're trying to do is as easy as ever, whether it's creative, whether it's like legal work, whatever the delivery is, it's content, it's ideas, it's people, it's a lot of the stuff that we're doing in AI, it's not automated systems.

37:26 These are co-pilots. We're spending a lot of time in the executive search space, looking at all the tools because we own a search company that does high level searches, tech. BC, know, hospitals, 2300 clients, like, you know, pretty big business. And at the end of the day, it's people plus machines. Like, if we send a message out to our customer that's automated, today, that scares me. Because we are being paid well, to be the filter. here are the five people you need to talk to about this CFO role.

38:07 And that is something that it's not about qualifications, it's about qualifications and is this person gonna push the culture forward? Is this person gonna create friction that pulls them back, right? And that's every industry, you know. Like I don't like getting charged a thousand an hour for something that Harvey AI, a legal platform can do easily. Right? I do want the lawyers in our life to be business people. Yes, you can do this. Let me tell you the risk of this, because everything has risk, right?

38:47 Help me understand what could go wrong here. Like that's a business person who has a legal background verse. draft this agreement and make it a little more favorable for us because we have more leverage. That's AI. What gets you guys? you have so much knowledge. You're sitting here talking to you and the combo of you two. It just um it's probably why your relationship and your marriage and it's a partnership. It's why it's probably lasted so well. You're so unique and different but you guys are both, I mean, you're both brilliant. Sitting here meeting you and sitting here for the first time. The the amount of information and how you process and the problem solving skills that you have.

39:28 It's immense and it's deep. What still gets you excited? You have all this skill, you have all this talent, you have the same human um feelings that people have. We have fear and then we have courage and you you have to find a way to stay motivated and you have your family and your kids but what gets you fired up? What gets you really excited so you're not caught in the monotony of someone that thinks like, my gosh, another day of this. What gets you fired I purpose, right? So Mike and I continuously, like you guys are probably going to laugh at this, but um it's not just business ideas that we run our V2Mom framework through.

40:09 We created a V2Mom for our life over the next 10 years, right? So that we do have purpose and we feel connected, you know, outside of work, with work, and we have a clear vision of what we want to do and what we're doing this for. And I think a lot of people forget that. And that's when that boredom, monotony, resentment starts to build. So what gets us excited is all the companies that we're helping, the companies that we own, and we're trying to impart knowledge on and really get them to grow, all the founders and entrepreneurs that we meet.

40:52 And speaking to people like you to get our messages out because we're not in this, writing this book, you don't write a book to make money. It's not something you make money on. You actually have to want to do it because the sales part is so broken. So we just want to amplify our message. so now that we're free birds, I don't want to say empty nesters, I like saying free birds. ah we're going to hit the road and try to get our messages out. Do you write the book to make connections? it that simple? think I did. I think I've always wanted to write a book.

41:34 And I think I've kept so much knowledge in like, let's just call it chapter titles. Like, so the chapter titles of the book, I already had all those, you know, titles, perception is reality, put the cult in your culture. So one, was I wanted to amplify our messages, you know, we talked to entrepreneurs all week, you know, probably 15 a week among you know, or between the two of us. And the second part was, which I don't think Mike and I realize is all the amazing connections we've made with people like you across the country who are speaking our same language.

42:14 And it's really cool and they get us. So that's been, you know, a great. Mike, you got a big old kid inside of you, How do you let that kid live every day? What do do? Let it scream, because it's there, So you have to understand me, you have to understand like, you know, my childhood, was born with heart failure, I shouldn't have lived. And when I'm old, 51. So I had congestive heart failure at a time when they didn't go in and operate, either live or you don't. Luckily, the hole in my heart closed. When I was 19, my valve, I two surgeries, one, my valve had burst, my aortic valve, zero blood pressure.

42:59 emergency surgery had happened to burst out of doctors office, which saved my life. I went from being a very stressed out kid to like, I'm in extra innings, like, let's go, right? Like, what's the worst thing that could happen? I'm alive. Like I shouldn't be here, right? And so I do seek out fun. I, and we invest behind that. So we invested in music festivals and I also go to a lot of live music. I, you know, 200 some fish shows, going to see Bruce Hornsby and a band called Eggie on Monday night at the, you know, the theater upstate, like love music.

43:42 Cass and I are doing four adventures a year. You know, we're empty nesters. We sacrifice a lot for companies and kids. We're going to the Arctic and bunch of other stuff that just we've wanted to do. And I've never really woken up and said like, work sucks. Like we went to an event last night that honored our very good friend and the writer of the forward to our book, Gary Vaynerchuk. And he's like family. He started all this stuff from our conference room. And just to reflect back on kind of his 12 years building this nonprofit that what people don't understand is like, he's very public.

44:26 And a lot of like the best people, like, you know what they're doing business wise, but it's the secret things that they do in the background, the philanthropy, the all that stuff that really is impressive. And he had no money when he came into our office and you know, he's now built an empire. And what's interesting is he loves it as much as we do. Like he wanted to write the forward cause like, his life is shoveling shit and he loves it. Very positive guy. So the whole idea of shoveling shit isn't this like you have to give up your happiness and this like beginner's mind and like childlike way that you approach the world, which I do.

45:12 I mean, I appreciate you saying that. I'm kind of a big kid in every meeting. I'm like, you know, teach me. I don't know this. I want to learn and We've learned that hard work, focus, transparency, family first are kind of our values and superpowers. your guys, I don't ever bring up family unless you guys invoke it, but you mention your two kids. I'm smiling, uh I'm too old to be your kid. But I'm- But I'm smiling thinking about how lucky they are.

45:54 We have three kids, by the way, Mike, did you just say two? Yeah, we do. Remember? Cass, did you know about all three? Is that what we're talking about? did. I did know that I was there when you were born. I three kids with my first wife. That would be me. So, you know, um... Yeah, I bet they are ecstatic that the next if you guys end up living full lives, the satisfaction and smiles that they're going to get to have is just tremendous because we're sitting here talking business and you know, we're talking about a book and what you guys are doing. But when I mentioned Mike being a kid, you almost couldn't hold it together. Yeah, no, that is exactly, that's him, right?

46:37 And I think I was like born an adult with spreadsheets. And you've tried to run his life that way ever since, we know. There's no running Mike's life. Mike's got his own life. That's the other thing. It's like we have a lot of shared time and there's a lot of me time. like the partnership is she does. There's certain things she loves to do and one is like she does run her life like I don't want like that to escape like and many moms run lives. I think I've been very active with the kids and like I'm not Mia. But it hasn't been a life where we both do it's not 5050 all the time because sometimes I do more work she does less.

47:22 um We do delegate to, we do delegate to like, like he's VP of religion and cars. Like I don't do car maintenance. don't, anytime something comes in with the cars, I'm like, here you go. Things like that. So, that works, right? We stay in our own lanes. you guys do so much for so many others. I'm sitting here. assuming the thing that you went to last night. you you mentioned your good friend. We all know him as Gary Vee, right? If we're not all friends with him, he's Gary Vee to us. He's probably Gary or Gary Vaynerchuk to you guys but is it his pencils to promises? Is that his not?

48:03 Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I love he doesn't mention it often. I love that he does that behind the scenes. Yeah. you said that yesterday in his speech for this lifetime achievement award, 17 years of service behind the scenes where he sat on the board and our good friend, Adam Brown, who started it was like, dude, I know you don't have time. He's like, no, I'm all in and I'm going to sit on the board. love it. Just when I when I see someone or come around, I'm here in the Midwest. I spend most of my time here. But when you find out about someone and they've done something for a decade or two decades or three decades behind the scenes, that's all I need to know about the human.

48:44 Yeah, I'll do a lot of things with that human being. uh So you guys do so much for other people and you're investing in businesses and you're looking for opportunities. But I'm sitting here saying like, have you really developed the life that all you need is each other in your family? Like have you built that type of life? I mean, I think we... think that would be empty for us. I think we need friendships and adventure. I think, you know, Mike needs music. Yeah. And purpose. think Mike. Yeah. I mean, purpose is a big deal and per you know, like when we wrote the book, we had a different purpose, right?

49:25 We knew for those 18 months, like what was happening. I think, um, you have to like health and longevity is a big thing for us. And. you know, with all kids kind of grown and flown, let's just call it, you know, they'll come back, but we have more time to really think about it and dedicate ourselves to what does the next 50 years look like. I think you have to look at it as impact. what can we, what kind of impact can we make as humans? And it can't just all be related to us. There's gotta be bigger picture there. So I don't, I don't think we sit there and say, we we've got it all.

50:05 Like I want. I want uh friends to travel with, right? I want uh more dogs. I like silence. I like more things that are just meditative. That's Cass's favorite song is silent. Everyone asks, what's your favorite music? And I'm like, silence. Um when I was doing a little bit more prep work before we jumped on here today, I pulled up my Spotify app and I just put on some meditation and and while um sometimes you just need that sometimes need some hard begging Metallica and sometimes I need some some meditation. that's right. Yeah. So your guys book, we can get it everywhere, right? Um do you want do you want us to buy it from your site?

50:46 Is that where you want to buy it from or do want to redirect it somewhere else? It doesn't matter. You can buy it from our site. We also have like, if you buy bundles, you get a lot more perks if you want that and benefits. Amazon is super easy too. book. So who did the auto book? Did you guys both read it? Yes, we did. It's our voices. That's so good. How'd you decide who got what chapter? Well, in the book, you can kind of tell like, it's his story, my story, his story, my story. And so we just divided it. And then I went through and kind of took the we parts and then divided that between us.

51:28 So give us the final insight here on to let you guys go get back to all your making billions and investing money ah and living your life like you're that kid that still shouldn't be here because your heart closed up, ah So shoveling shit, but a love story. Is that a love story for you two or a love story for your business? It's a love story. It's our love story because it is again, like our love language is business, but it's also this like ode to all the founders out there. It's a love story for them. It's like a love letter to them to say like, we see you. This is what it's going to take.

52:09 We've been there and we're in the trenches with you. And I would just leave em everyone with the idea that if you are fortunate enough to be able to spend your day building stuff, um it's the best way you could spend your day, even if you fail. We live in the greatest country in the world. No matter what you read, like go try starting a business in Singapore or elsewhere, you get a scarlet letter. If it fails, you never work again. And being able to get up and build in a system that rewards ingenuity and hard work is the best.

52:56 And you'll never look back and say, that wasn't a great experience. And I think part of the book made us realize how lucky we have been to never work for anyone, to be able to create value for ourselves and others we love. Everyone at Buddy Media, all hundreds of employees had equity and make mistakes with people we love. And now be able to laugh about it, even though we've had some hairy times. So if you can do it, no better way to spend your life. And if we could help reach out, I Cas and Mike.com, we have an awesome community and we're like really, we've met a lot of like fancy people and like accomplished people like you, Mark.

53:44 We've also like, the people running pizza places and car dealerships and building signs for companies. These are the people who we are working with and we wrote this for don't have Ivy League backgrounds and money to fall back. They're real entrepreneurs. They're not venture entrepreneurs. They're like, if this doesn't work, I have no idea how I'm feeding my family. And that community is turning into awesome. mean, we have a meeting today, the Founders Farm meeting, which um we love. You guys must have mistaken something for fancy and special about me.

54:27 No, say accomplish, accomplish when I say. was going to say, like, he must be talking to his buddy or his friend there over in Hudson yards. Cause that ain't me. No, you're like a baller, right? Like you've, you probably don't talk to us unless we do something like this. Cause you know, you've stuck with, you know, what you're doing and have developed not only reputation, but a business. um And you're no different as an entrepreneur than we are cut open our arms. It's the same blood and that's what we love. Like we're no better or worse. We're just shoveling shit like everyone else. Yeah, I have this passion to, you know, I think we all have this story and this narrative based on the life we know we've lived. Sometimes that story's relevant to other people.

55:08 Sometimes it's not. Sometimes they compare it, but I just look at this average or below average place that I came from. And from the outside, a lot of people view it as very accomplished and everything inside says I'm not there yet. And what I do is I look at all these people that I know that are equal, if not already better than me when I started. and it seems like it's similar to you. It's like guys, you're right there. You've already got the tools. Just go a little further, connect with a few more people, read the books, develop your mind a little bit more. because if you knew the mindset of this 25 year old kid 21 years ago, I'm telling you, I had nothing that you don't have.

55:49 And that belief and that desire and that all in commitment can completely change your life and then others you surround yourself with. that's I'm on this journey in this path to say Guys, no matter what you think I've achieved, I'm telling you, I'm normal or below normal from where I came from and who I was. I love that. That's everyone. mean, matter who you are, and I think the entrepreneurs mentality is what Gary said last night is you've seen nothing yet. Like the best is ahead of me no matter what I've done, right? There's no sitting on laurels. Like this for us is not just like walk down memory lane, look at us, look at us. Yeah, it's we put together a focus document this week, which is like this is exactly what we our vision for where we want to be in 10 years.

56:37 Here's how we get there. And here's how we're going to measure success because we're not going to succeed on everything. We're going have to pivot, right? Now, normally we do planning for a year. So we're going to like, we wanted a bigger mission. And then we're looking at like six month, one year increments of what we have to do. But that's the entrepreneur mindset. I'm sure you have documents. It's like, Here's where I'm at. Here's all where I want to be. Here's how I'm going to close the gap between the reality and my vision of the future. And focus is how you get. You think I'm wrong, Cassie? You can get involved here too. The guys tend to talk when the smartest person in the room is the lady. um, but do you, do you, I have this belief now that I can almost, I can reverse engineer an outcome, almost, almost everything I can reverse engineer it.

57:28 Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's the confidence of that's the confidence you've built by getting punched in the face a lot. And I think that's the ultimate entrepreneur, ultimate business scalers mindset. Right. So we're no different, you know, the successful business owners, they've just developed that, that endurance and they've failed one more time, but they didn't give up. Right. And that it's that not giving up that drives us and makes us confident and competent that we will figure this out. We can figure out how to move forward, take steps that get us more data, even if they're not the perfect steps.

58:13 That's the difference. Alright, you guys are wonderful. I've talked to you all day long. Thank you. Thank you for this time. Thanks for thanks for writing the book and doing all the things you've done and wearing your pink pullover and wearing your wearing your hat. Put it on. There it is. Right. The reverse hat guys he got yelled at because he couldn't reverse the screen. So thank you. you all. Have an awesome day and you guys go out and check out their website. Go read the book and I'm pumped about continue to follow you guys and see what the directory is. Thanks for joining us. Thank you.