#149 - Building Together: Kass & Mike Lazerow on Love, Leadership & “Shoveling $h!t” | The Necessary Entrepreneur with Mark Perkins

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So the whole idea of shoveling shit isn't this, like, you have to give up your happiness
in this, like, beginner's mind and, like, childlike way that you approach the world.

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We've learned that, like, hard work, focus, transparency, family first are kind of our
values and superpowers.

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All right, you guys, welcome back to another episode here of The Necessary Entrepreneur.

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Today, just have a couple awesome people.

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If you would have seen the previous seven minute interaction, you could tell that this is
gonna be a fun day.

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ah But I welcome uh Cass and Mike Lazaro.

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We're gonna do a short introduction.

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We're gonna get rolling because all the extra time that we have with them, gaining their
perspective for the past few decades of business and entrepreneurship and a new book they

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have written, I think it's really gonna unlock some things in our minds.

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So a quote from your all's book, your new book, Shoveling Shit.

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And I just don't love the topic, but shoveling shit a love story, at the end of shit,
there's a dollar sign for the S and there's an exclamation point for the I.

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I wanna dig into that on why you were so brave and so bold to do that.

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But a quote from your book, what the book's really about is there's no worst way to spend
your day than being an entrepreneur.

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you show up, shit hits the fan, you never know what's going to go wrong.

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I think that's a little bit of a paraphrase, but I went, oh my gosh, I've just looked at
the last 22 years of my life.

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So if that's really the highlight of the book, why is that statement and that quote so
significant from the things you guys have learned over the past 30 years in business?

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Well, first of all, thanks for having us.

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I appreciate it.

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ah To answer that question, I think it's because like we wanted to tell all the other
business owners out there, all the other entrepreneurs that we hear them, we validate you

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and to show the future entrepreneurs that this isn't glamorous.

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You you might idealize that this could be the best life you've ever had and it's going to
go so easy and I have all this extra time.

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But the truth is you get punched in the face a million times a day.

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You're looking for that one chip in like golf that gets you back coming back the next day
to get punched in the face again.

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So we, we do say it's, it's the worst way to spend your time, but there's really nothing
we'd rather do.

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So how does this make sense that if it's so difficult and it's not glamorous, because
everything we see online, especially with social media now, boy, there's a lot of people

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that make it look glamorous.

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um Then why do we keep signing up for this?

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Well, I think the main reason is when you ask an entrepreneur, how are you doing that?

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Oh, we're crushing it.

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They're like, are you really like, how are you doing personally?

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It's like, oh, I'm falling apart and clients are leaving and employees are, you know, not
happy.

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And, you know, my marriage is falling apart and I'm just kind of like, this company is all
consuming.

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Well, have you thought about doing something else?

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No, I love it.

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So it's this positive part of like the best entrepreneurs.

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live the imbalanced life and there's no other way they could see themselves living their
life, primarily because it's where they find their purpose.

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It's work that they can't wait to get out of bed on some days and other days they just
want to hide and not get out of bed because things are going so miserably.

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But the idea of sitting behind a desk from nine to five and working for someone else, that
is the real fear of their life.

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So that you you mentioned imbalanced life, you know, it's a hot topic over the past three
to five to seven years about balance.

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You just stated it's an imbalanced life.

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What's that look like?

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It looks like you are missing out on things.

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There's lots of sacrifices that you don't feel like you're nailing it in any one
department.

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Let's just call it like that.

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you you're missing out on a lot of friendships.

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You're not nurturing your own family relationships.

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Your parents could be mad at you for not seeing that you're not seeing them for a while.

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And, you know, you're making

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many decisions as you can as quickly as you can and the hard part is that there's no
balance there's only like integration you're literally integrating a very full work life

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into whatever personal life you have and unfortunately you just have to make decisions and
know that there will be sacrifices and there will be a lot of chaos and a lot of mess.

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Do you think this book is I just reflect on my past 20 and 22 years and daily I just laugh
at myself I find myself just laughing at the things I thought I learned or I'd convinced

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myself two weeks ago like I have that thing conquered and I'm like here Here's something
again.

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Do you find this?

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Is this almost a really good dictionary or encyclopedia for those budding first-time
entrepreneurs?

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Because you guys are in this world of investment now of really investing and growing
businesses em

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Is this a pathway?

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Is it a dictionary?

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Is it an encyclopedia?

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of entrepreneurship.

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Those that it's not a, you know, we didn't want to write a textbook.

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We didn't want to write something.

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It's like, do this, do that.

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Like this is the way to do it.

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Things are always evolving.

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We used to be the young person in the room.

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We're now kind of the, least I am the gray haired old person.

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Cass is an incredible, you know, person who dyes her hair.

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She looks beautiful as always.

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yeah, we speak the truth here.

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The Cass and Mike.

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um And so, you know, when I look at what we've done as a couple, I forgot the question.

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my God, it's

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It's just when I said hey, is it a dictionary or an encyclopedia?

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if you had any of those things, um this is the 50 cheat codes that we learned the hard
way.

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It's not exhaustive.

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We're still making new mistakes.

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We're still learning new things.

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But these are the 50 things that we put into one book, but we didn't do it as a textbook.

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We wrapped it in the real stories and the vulnerability that we have.

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you know, heard the book has, you know, is very vulnerable.

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It comes from each of these are personal mistakes that oftentimes had consequences.

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Taking money from family who ended up wanting to sue us or more, you know, really not like
us or hiring the wrong people or building, you know, having things happen in our work

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environment that was toxic for the culture or starting businesses that your spouse says
maybe you shouldn't.

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And by

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starting businesses, I mean me and Cass not loving it and that business being a huge
failure to date for a lot of different reasons.

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And so it's a quick read.

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It's lessons are most important lessons, how to put cult and culture, how to get people in
the right position, how to focus an organization.

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Each of those came from a moment of failure where we learned the hard way.

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The, look at you too, I'm sure some people ask you about your relationship and your
marriage and how do you make it, but there's a lot of questions I'd have around it because

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it's almost like you've gone against what the world has told us in so many ways and you
guys have just crushed life.

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And no matter, said entrepreneurs say we're crushing it, but you guys have the receipts
now.

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You know the skeletons, you know the things that you failed with, but the fact is, is that
you are now living the life that when so many people start, they look at and say, that's

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it.

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And so along that path, when I heard you say you started the business that Cass didn't
want you to start.

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Cass, how do you not play Monday morning quarterback when it fails?

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I play Monday morning quarterback all the time.

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I mean, I want to make sure that, you know, I'm very clear here that Mike and I have a
relationship that started off, you know, with immense respect for each other's talents, me

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and the operation side, Mike and the kind of visionary product, um, strategy side.

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And so.

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know, we would come back while we were dating and from different jobs and just ask each
other things.

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It was like our love language.

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It was our mutual respect for someone who has the same work ethic, who has the same desire
to improve.

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And part of what comes with that is this brutal, authentic communication, which we've
always had.

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And I think

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That has been like a strength of ours, a superpower, if you will.

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And we Monday morning quarterback all the time.

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I mean, that's what an operator does.

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Like there's no getting around that.

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I'm looking at 80 paths a day with every decision.

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And if I get it wrong, yes, it gets me closer to figuring it out, but I am not happy.

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And so I'm going to talk that out.

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So Mike, what do you do with the ego then when that happens?

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Well, I think all of us who are married, you don't have to work with your spouse, learn a
lot about yourself through the lens of your spouse.

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And if you have a great spouse, trying to get you to be a better person, happier, perform
in whatever area better.

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so Cass is not passive aggressive.

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She's very aggressive.

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And so I mess up and this was hard for me at the beginning.

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I first took it as criticism, but then I took it as kind of really constructive feedback.

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So the way you spoke to that person, you were too short, you weren't listening, you need
to slow it down, be more proactive, not reactive, right?

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That was a very common discussion as I was a young entrepreneur and Cass would see me talk
to people and not be the most patient.

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mean, my weakness is sometimes my mind wanders, I'm not

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I'm I'm not listening.

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I really have to dial in.

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You saw it earlier, right?

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I lost, I forgot the question.

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So I've learned a lot about myself of how my actions impact her and other people.

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And typically, the feedback is very constructive.

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Now there are times we've had knockout, drag out fights, right?

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Where you're just like, fucking, I'm running away.

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But I'm like, where am I gonna go?

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There's nowhere else to go.

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Like this is where I'm supposed to be.

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So turn around, go back in, say sorry, you're an asshole, like me, and take
responsibility, come up with a plan to not do it again.

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And I think the best relationships, business or otherwise, you take responsibility for
your actions, you always have the person's back, you're trying to get the best out of the

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other person, right, and get them to a better place.

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And I frankly think it's easier.

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with married couples who are working together.

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Because you have the same goal.

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We want to create a life that not only can we support, but has whatever we put on our
plate.

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For us, it was kids.

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Other people, maybe it isn't.

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If you want to travel, if you want to give back to your community, whatever's on your
plate, working with your spouse to make that happen, I think, is just an incredible thing.

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Cash, you seemed like you had something to say about that.

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I I, I look, Mike has evolved.

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hope I've involved as well, but, um, I think he's right.

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And, know, the best partnerships out there, again, whether married or not, they get
everything on the kitchen table, right?

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They sit down, they hash it all out.

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There's no resentment.

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but one of the formulas that's worked for us that works for some of the greatest
partnerships out there is that we don't have overlapping skills.

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So, know, Mark, you might say like, my God, they work together 24 seven.

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I don't work on the same things.

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Right.

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And what's, what's amazing about it is I implicitly trust that he will make the right
decisions in his lane and he trusts me to do so, which means that we have this

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synchronization and we can move very quickly as a result of that.

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And I think that was a huge strength when we were founding companies and running them.

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So when you guys now are investing in companies, you've invested in, it's tough to even
track this.

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Is it a stock investment or is it actually an investment through your time?

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But you've invested in over a hundred companies, I believe.

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And I don't know if that's right or wrong, but even if it was 90, it's a ton.

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70s.

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Yeah.

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And so when you come into those environments and what, I think what everybody can learn
from your all's experience and what you've done, learn before you're in the room of the

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pitch.

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Like there can be more that can be learned from reading this book and listening to moments
like this from you all to not necessarily maybe pitch you all, but learn how you need to

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be and who you need to be and what you need to be to pitch others because you're probably
listening to a similar metric on others if they're evaluating like, I investing in this

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person?

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What's the percentage?

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What level of investment?

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So is there an it factor out here?

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Is there that when you're evaluating these things?

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Is it an approach?

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Is it a person?

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When you see it,

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If there is, so is there an it factor with people or businesses?

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And when you see it, what is it?

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Yeah, so I'm also I'm usually on the front end of investments for us.

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So I'm more public.

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I'm out there.

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I'm networking and meeting entrepreneurs.

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So usually starts with me.

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And at a minimum, there are six things that go into what we call the go gauge, which is
what we need to see to green light and investment.

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And we actually put it in the book for entrepreneurs.

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If you're thinking about a business, think about your business in the

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you know, looking at it through this lens of what we call the go gauge, which is very
easily communicate on one piece of paper, what's the product?

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Why is it different?

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Which if it's not different, you're gonna be really, it's gonna really hard to get it out
there.

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How big is the market?

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We'd look at how many customers and what are they paying?

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There's a lot of people overestimate the size of the market.

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So if you're in the golf market, Ryder Cup is going on and you don't own teacups.

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That's $60 billion of the market you're never gonna target, right?

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And then it comes down to sales and marketing.

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How are people gonna learn about it, which is huge.

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How are you gonna get the product to a customer, which is number five.

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And then number six is the unit economics.

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We're very simple finance people.

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What's it gonna cost to make the product or service?

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What are you selling it for?

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What's left over at the end, right?

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It's your margin.

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And can you run the organization and do the marketing and everything else with that?

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Now, we don't talk as much about the it factor in the book because we're writing to
entrepreneurs and investors and who you are is just table stakes.

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So we don't partner with people before we really understand the person, what's motivating
them, are they good people?

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And so.

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Yeah, we just met an AI entrepreneur who I really like and Cass really likes who is
self-aware, knows what he doesn't know, is reaching out for help.

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What he knows, the technology and what he's bringing to the table is very unique, but this
humble attitude we really appreciate.

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And we think that some of our best investments, whether it's Mike Cesario at Liquid Death
or Walter Driver.

208
00:16:42,222 --> 00:16:50,366
who sold his gaming company for $5 billion in cash a few years ago, or Erica Jane at
Healthy.

209
00:16:50,366 --> 00:16:52,226
They're very humble.

210
00:16:52,667 --> 00:17:03,311
They know what they know, they know what they don't know, and they're able to communicate
it clearly to attract not only investors, but more importantly, team members.

211
00:17:03,311 --> 00:17:06,352
Those are the people who really make the business work.

212
00:17:06,753 --> 00:17:09,874
Investors screw people up half the time.

213
00:17:11,916 --> 00:17:12,692
Why is that?

214
00:17:12,692 --> 00:17:14,781
Why do investors screw people up?

215
00:17:15,278 --> 00:17:28,218
So I was talking to a friend last night, in Michael Loeb, who's one of the great New York
City entrepreneurs and we're in a deal together and he's been very helpful and incredible

216
00:17:28,218 --> 00:17:29,418
CEO.

217
00:17:29,538 --> 00:17:37,078
And we went through a list of suggestions that VCs made that were implemented.

218
00:17:37,078 --> 00:17:40,158
were God awful ideas.

219
00:17:40,910 --> 00:17:44,570
I'm not going to name the VCs, but they come to the meeting saying, you've got to do this.

220
00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:46,830
I have this other company that's doing this.

221
00:17:46,830 --> 00:17:51,730
And if you have a membership that has this price, it's going to work and blah, blah, blah.

222
00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:53,450
And the founder's like, I don't know.

223
00:17:53,450 --> 00:17:54,950
He went to Harvard.

224
00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:56,870
He has a lot of money.

225
00:17:56,870 --> 00:18:01,350
I guess this person's never run a company that I'm thinking about.

226
00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:09,638
And for whatever reason, a lot of VCs think they're the smartest in the room when they've
never really done anything but like.

227
00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:12,771
accumulate some cash to then invest.

228
00:18:13,332 --> 00:18:25,958
And it's very dangerous because if you get money from someone and they have convictions
and their ideas, you naturally want to most good entrepreneurs take that advice, even

229
00:18:25,958 --> 00:18:30,421
though deep down their gut is screaming, this fucking sucks.

230
00:18:30,421 --> 00:18:33,023
Like this is the worst advice I've ever heard.

231
00:18:33,023 --> 00:18:39,266
But then you spend two weeks talking yourself out of that and finding the whole company.

232
00:18:39,272 --> 00:18:43,366
in trouble and you've burned money, you've burned relationships.

233
00:18:43,527 --> 00:18:53,267
And it's just for whatever reason, that dynamic of like, I think about your business once
a month as an investor and I'm going to give you advice and I want you to accept it like

234
00:18:53,267 --> 00:18:55,078
I'm baby Jesus, right?

235
00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:58,422
Like that dynamic is very dangerous.

236
00:18:59,042 --> 00:19:00,614
Cass, you on the operational side.

237
00:19:00,614 --> 00:19:05,890
I just, it's, really cool seeing even your two backgrounds, even though you're sitting in
the same location.

238
00:19:05,890 --> 00:19:08,634
Of course it looks like you're in the science lab.

239
00:19:08,634 --> 00:19:12,298
You're, you're, you're behind, you're, you're behind the scenes pulling the strings.

240
00:19:12,298 --> 00:19:14,501
Um, and Mike's out here.

241
00:19:14,501 --> 00:19:15,542
Like, can we just have some fun?

242
00:19:15,542 --> 00:19:16,904
Can I put my fish hat back on?

243
00:19:16,904 --> 00:19:17,655
Like, can we do this?

244
00:19:17,655 --> 00:19:18,845
You guys are like,

245
00:19:19,604 --> 00:19:27,386
I think Mark, you literally, yeah, you literally just like got us in like 10 seconds.

246
00:19:27,992 --> 00:19:33,594
So, when you guys make an investment, um you know, there's all these ways.

247
00:19:33,594 --> 00:19:42,277
We hear the gurus and, you know, Charlie and Warren and they buy a business and step away,
buy a business and let the managers run it and they supposedly, I don't know if this is

248
00:19:42,277 --> 00:19:45,348
the way it happens, but they just want an update, one update a year.

249
00:19:45,348 --> 00:19:49,149
He buys businesses on one sheet of paper and just give me one update a year.

250
00:19:49,449 --> 00:19:52,140
If that's been so successful for them.

251
00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:59,010
Is it just the nature of entrepreneurs and investors that we just try to reinvent this all
the time for some reason?

252
00:19:59,671 --> 00:20:02,323
from operationally, Cass, like where's your brain with this?

253
00:20:02,323 --> 00:20:04,615
How involved do you get in the business to give advice?

254
00:20:04,615 --> 00:20:09,158
But also, how do you know how to step back so you don't ruin them like this VC we're
talking about?

255
00:20:10,518 --> 00:20:16,861
You know, when we invest in a company, we offer our support.

256
00:20:16,861 --> 00:20:22,293
And I think we're known as very supportive investors because we've done it.

257
00:20:22,293 --> 00:20:24,904
Like Mike said, we have been in the trenches.

258
00:20:24,904 --> 00:20:26,364
We've run many companies.

259
00:20:26,364 --> 00:20:27,625
We've sold many companies.

260
00:20:27,625 --> 00:20:29,616
We've had really lows.

261
00:20:29,616 --> 00:20:31,987
We've had failures, you name it.

262
00:20:31,987 --> 00:20:40,416
So we're never going to force an entrepreneur to listen to us or, you know, shove our
ideas down their throat.

263
00:20:40,416 --> 00:20:47,249
Most of the time they do come to either Mike or me for our specific expertise.

264
00:20:47,269 --> 00:20:59,854
And I think that is how we can partner with companies so that they can get through the
downside, you know, all the, all the little valleys faster.

265
00:21:00,054 --> 00:21:02,435
And I think that's what they appreciate.

266
00:21:02,435 --> 00:21:04,816
So, um, how do you avoid it?

267
00:21:04,816 --> 00:21:10,368
You gotta be really careful who you choose as your outside money, right?

268
00:21:10,504 --> 00:21:20,741
And what we're seeing now is a lot of companies don't need outside money and they're able
to start companies with fewer people, way fewer engineers.

269
00:21:20,881 --> 00:21:24,364
And I think for us, it's a great thing, right?

270
00:21:24,364 --> 00:21:35,092
Because that entrepreneur is keeping true to him or herself and is able to run and really
make money, right?

271
00:21:35,092 --> 00:21:39,034
Get the money they need through instant sales.

272
00:21:40,344 --> 00:21:49,978
This world's changing fast and I think I saw the CEO of a chat last week or two weeks ago
say it maybe it's something that's just been going viral for a few months, but he said

273
00:21:49,978 --> 00:21:58,641
there's going to be a time here in our near near future that one person starts a company
in this new AI world and that company becomes worth a billion dollars.

274
00:21:58,941 --> 00:22:01,352
What's your brain do when you hear that?

275
00:22:03,566 --> 00:22:09,789
I mean, I believe it and I've been saying that longer than, you know, I think Sam has been
saying that for longer.

276
00:22:09,789 --> 00:22:19,873
And the reason is because if you look at, you know, how easy it is to, so take a company
that, you know, let's come up with any company, right?

277
00:22:19,873 --> 00:22:21,924
Like dog horoscopes, right?

278
00:22:21,924 --> 00:22:24,195
We're going to provide a horoscope to your dog.

279
00:22:24,475 --> 00:22:31,798
You build, you know, the website with frame AI in like 30 minutes, literally.

280
00:22:32,428 --> 00:22:44,666
You go to lovable or cursor replicates that I want an app that provides, you know, iPhone,
Android provides daily horoscopes for dogs charge 99 cents.

281
00:22:45,267 --> 00:22:46,507
It does it.

282
00:22:47,008 --> 00:22:54,813
You then work with one of the AI BDRs, the business development or marketing automation
services.

283
00:22:54,813 --> 00:22:55,944
So it's up and running.

284
00:22:55,944 --> 00:22:58,756
You're spending all your day now marketing it.

285
00:22:59,076 --> 00:22:59,446
Right.

286
00:22:59,446 --> 00:23:01,978
You're calling up dog influencers.

287
00:23:02,454 --> 00:23:03,835
This isn't a company we're launching.

288
00:23:03,835 --> 00:23:05,595
I'm just like, it's an example.

289
00:23:05,595 --> 00:23:08,516
Call up an influencer and say, Hey, five grand.

290
00:23:08,797 --> 00:23:15,860
And you do a, and do a video in your voice about how this revolutionized the relationship
you have with your dogs.

291
00:23:15,860 --> 00:23:20,621
You now understand the dog's mission and purpose on earth.

292
00:23:21,622 --> 00:23:26,684
And all of a sudden you have like a money machine as you sleep.

293
00:23:27,024 --> 00:23:29,085
Now, is that a billion dollar idea?

294
00:23:29,085 --> 00:23:29,946
No.

295
00:23:29,946 --> 00:23:31,466
But could you do.

296
00:23:31,662 --> 00:23:40,282
horoscopes for plumbers and electricians and NFL players and like a thousand horoscope
apps.

297
00:23:40,282 --> 00:23:41,562
I don't know.

298
00:23:41,562 --> 00:23:42,582
Maybe.

299
00:23:43,042 --> 00:23:48,602
And all of a sudden you have 150 million of subscriptions.

300
00:23:48,602 --> 00:23:54,922
So it's like a renewing business because everyone wants to know what's in store for their
future and get meaning out of their life.

301
00:23:55,162 --> 00:23:57,982
And you're doing it in a very automated way.

302
00:23:57,982 --> 00:24:00,408
We have a buddy media, you know,

303
00:24:00,408 --> 00:24:04,701
partner of ours and one of our engineers who's doing this right now.

304
00:24:05,022 --> 00:24:08,004
Like we've seen many young people who are just building.

305
00:24:08,004 --> 00:24:10,967
They're not like, let me go talk to VCs.

306
00:24:10,967 --> 00:24:12,708
Like this should exist.

307
00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:14,089
I'm gonna build it.

308
00:24:14,089 --> 00:24:15,490
I'm gonna market it.

309
00:24:15,490 --> 00:24:20,414
And when it doesn't work, I'm gonna pivot until they get cashflow.

310
00:24:22,843 --> 00:24:27,047
So if they don't need money, what they need is they need your brains and your brilliance
and your expertise, right?

311
00:24:27,047 --> 00:24:29,634
Your connections, your partnerships, your relationships.

312
00:24:29,634 --> 00:24:36,843
Maybe, yeah, maybe it just, really just depends on the business model, but we're there to
help, right?

313
00:24:37,314 --> 00:24:45,819
we're really there to like, most of the time we're just validating great ideas and gut
feelings.

314
00:24:46,881 --> 00:24:59,549
If we are coming up with a business model and the plan, spending two hours a month with
the business, there's something wrong because we're in the space business.

315
00:24:59,549 --> 00:25:01,351
We're in the water business.

316
00:25:01,351 --> 00:25:06,670
We're in software, we're in healthcare, we're in, uh

317
00:25:06,670 --> 00:25:08,950
gambling, so betting.

318
00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:12,390
We know none of those industries.

319
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:19,550
And if we are the ones pushing the company forward, 100 % is going to fail.

320
00:25:21,142 --> 00:25:22,242
I was in studio.

321
00:25:22,242 --> 00:25:24,903
We have a podcast studio when people come to Cincinnati here.

322
00:25:24,903 --> 00:25:32,745
Um and we were in studio and I'll have some guys in that were some actors and some movies
like the Black Panther and the Great Debaters back in the day.

323
00:25:32,745 --> 00:25:42,868
So, they were in Cincinnati doing some things and it's the first time we ever had canned
water in studio and you know what brand I'm talking about.

324
00:25:43,288 --> 00:25:46,749
I said, I looked at my team and I said, what do you all think we're cool?

325
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,120
I haven't ever paid

326
00:25:49,624 --> 00:25:52,997
for branded water in a can and I said, okay, I'm gonna do it.

327
00:25:52,997 --> 00:25:56,069
Take me down, take me to this world and I cracked it open.

328
00:25:56,069 --> 00:25:57,150
It's got the gold top.

329
00:25:57,150 --> 00:25:58,301
looks like I'm drinking a beer.

330
00:25:58,301 --> 00:26:05,736
Maybe that's a part of the thing and I taste it and I said, tastes like water and I looked
down and I said, that's a billion dollar brand.

331
00:26:07,340 --> 00:26:08,925
Yeah, more than a billion.

332
00:26:09,048 --> 00:26:15,071
So, that's mind numbing to the simple minded Midwest born Mark.

333
00:26:16,184 --> 00:26:18,111
But it's not that, I mean.

334
00:26:19,790 --> 00:26:23,331
So a lot of the stuff we love in life make no sense.

335
00:26:24,391 --> 00:26:29,592
Like we're beyond as a society what we need, right?

336
00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:33,892
Like, you know, we figured that out in the 1900s.

337
00:26:33,892 --> 00:26:40,085
It's what we, lot of the stuff that we love is just stuff we want, whether it's music,
whether it's brands, whether it's experiences.

338
00:26:40,085 --> 00:26:50,028
And Liquid Death to me was the combination of not only great marketing with a product that
is kind of everywhere.

339
00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:51,951
and the building block of life.

340
00:26:52,371 --> 00:26:57,173
But it also had a mission, which was like, let's get plastic bottles out of the ocean,
right?

341
00:26:57,173 --> 00:26:58,984
Which was important for a lot of people.

342
00:26:58,984 --> 00:27:01,195
And it was important for Live Nation.

343
00:27:01,195 --> 00:27:03,405
Live Nation's trying to go plastic free.

344
00:27:03,405 --> 00:27:08,157
So they partnered with Liquid Death and helped grow that business.

345
00:27:08,397 --> 00:27:20,022
And so when we invested before they even launched, so this was like pre-seed almost or
seed, we had no idea it was going to be like multi-billion dollar business, right?

346
00:27:20,290 --> 00:27:24,633
But that core of like, this is cool.

347
00:27:24,754 --> 00:27:26,495
This has a purpose.

348
00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:28,397
It feels good to drink.

349
00:27:28,397 --> 00:27:36,452
I don't drink alcohol, but it kind of feels like when I used to crack open a beer, the
ritual is important.

350
00:27:36,452 --> 00:27:48,533
so, you know, I'm not saying we knew that it was going to be as big as it's going to be,
but for a seed investor that seed investment, that founder, we knew because he worked for

351
00:27:48,533 --> 00:27:50,364
our friend, Gary Vaynerchuk.

352
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:55,989
was top five marketers we'd ever met in our life by far.

353
00:27:55,989 --> 00:27:58,110
Number one was Les Wunderman.

354
00:27:58,110 --> 00:28:02,106
Had his own agency, may he rest in peace, died at like 91.

355
00:28:02,372 --> 00:28:05,474
He created the 800 number for FedEx.

356
00:28:05,474 --> 00:28:08,636
He created the loyalty program for American Express.

357
00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:11,297
This guy was like real marketer.

358
00:28:11,478 --> 00:28:12,808
Mike was up there.

359
00:28:14,732 --> 00:28:24,991
What if you were to go back to like 98 when you founded launched golf.com and then Buddy
Media and some other thing if if you went back to those businesses, I want to make sure I

360
00:28:24,991 --> 00:28:28,773
get the the true sense of the question down.

361
00:28:28,774 --> 00:28:35,279
It's not would you do anything different today because you would because it's business
environments.

362
00:28:35,860 --> 00:28:38,081
But the question comes from a place.

363
00:28:38,642 --> 00:28:43,846
Would you do anything different based on what you learned launching those businesses?

364
00:28:44,598 --> 00:28:48,444
Or would you just do it different because it's just a different time?

365
00:28:51,882 --> 00:28:54,004
I think a combo of both.

366
00:28:54,004 --> 00:29:00,829
So when I started gov.com, you know, I didn't have that go gauge filter, right?

367
00:29:00,829 --> 00:29:10,677
So in the end, the, you know, the TAM, the total addressable market was much smaller than
I had anticipated.

368
00:29:10,677 --> 00:29:11,617
Right.

369
00:29:11,898 --> 00:29:18,218
And at that time, it was the big boom of the internet, web 1.0.

370
00:29:18,218 --> 00:29:23,722
And companies like, you know, E toys were going public for, you know, billions.

371
00:29:23,783 --> 00:29:30,328
So, um, I think that's kind of something I should have looked at.

372
00:29:30,328 --> 00:29:40,596
I think there's a due diligence issue when we first sold the company that, maybe I would
have, maybe I would have done a little bit better.

373
00:29:40,638 --> 00:29:46,962
Um, I think we did a good job, but we should have like picked our head up a little bit
and, and.

374
00:29:47,326 --> 00:29:49,888
Um, just paid attention to what was going on around.

375
00:29:49,888 --> 00:30:00,814
And then of course, if this is the time now, you know, I'm not sure we would have started
golf.com or, or if we did, it would have been a very different kind of business.

376
00:30:01,804 --> 00:30:02,575
Hmm.

377
00:30:02,659 --> 00:30:05,310
Because of the time or because of you earned?

378
00:30:06,072 --> 00:30:07,003
Both.

379
00:30:09,372 --> 00:30:10,692
Mike, do you agree?

380
00:30:11,703 --> 00:30:12,527
So.

381
00:30:14,616 --> 00:30:15,847
Yeah, I actually agree with all that.

382
00:30:15,847 --> 00:30:29,226
And I think that the golf.com business was of the time because we had a thesis and the
thesis was the internet would go from these very broad platforms, Yahoo, Excite, Look

383
00:30:29,226 --> 00:30:35,080
Smart, all these like kind of guides, like human curated to vertical sites.

384
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,531
And we're going to start with golf.

385
00:30:36,531 --> 00:30:39,042
And then we're like, let's just focus on like rich people.

386
00:30:39,163 --> 00:30:40,295
Like let's go to wine.

387
00:30:40,295 --> 00:30:41,965
I think health was one of them.

388
00:30:41,965 --> 00:30:44,076
We never got beyond golf.

389
00:30:44,110 --> 00:30:46,691
because we got stuck in golf.

390
00:30:47,392 --> 00:30:52,416
That business today in the media business just isn't going to work, right?

391
00:30:52,416 --> 00:30:57,970
Because of websites, we got to mobile and social, which was the next wave which we
participated in.

392
00:30:57,970 --> 00:31:04,644
And that's where we made our largest exit was Buddy Media.

393
00:31:04,985 --> 00:31:08,347
That was close to a billion dollar sale to Salesforce.

394
00:31:08,467 --> 00:31:12,590
And then you had on top of mobile and social.

395
00:31:13,134 --> 00:31:16,676
crypto, AI, all these other new things.

396
00:31:16,677 --> 00:31:18,958
And each of them have different models.

397
00:31:18,958 --> 00:31:23,091
So when Mark Benioff started a software company, was all about salespeople.

398
00:31:23,091 --> 00:31:26,624
Like the more salespeople you have, the more revenue.

399
00:31:26,624 --> 00:31:32,928
Now a lot of those salespeople are kind of automated outbound and it's product led growth.

400
00:31:32,928 --> 00:31:38,712
People sign up for Slack or they sign up for a service for free and then pay.

401
00:31:38,953 --> 00:31:40,934
And so I just think every

402
00:31:41,326 --> 00:31:54,486
You know, these industries build on top of each other and you have to take advantage of
all the technologies, whether it's the 1900s and coal and trains and steam engines or, you

403
00:31:54,486 --> 00:32:04,306
know, computing that was created really for data centers for SaaS businesses now being
used for massive server farms for AI.

404
00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:08,658
So what's your thesis in 2025?

405
00:32:10,478 --> 00:32:18,598
I mean, the overarching thesis for the venture side of our business, we have venture and
private equity, private equity, we're buying cashflow businesses.

406
00:32:18,758 --> 00:32:25,298
On the venture side is that productivity drives stock price.

407
00:32:26,278 --> 00:32:33,598
And the more productive a company is, the higher the margin and the higher the stock
price.

408
00:32:33,598 --> 00:32:37,438
We have never seen a productivity tool like AI.

409
00:32:37,458 --> 00:32:40,390
And so there will be

410
00:32:41,250 --> 00:32:47,272
very little money made in the grand scheme of things from investing directly in AI.

411
00:32:47,272 --> 00:32:49,152
We're in an AI bubble.

412
00:32:49,271 --> 00:32:52,293
These valuations are out of control.

413
00:32:52,613 --> 00:33:02,136
These multi-billion dollar companies, I don't see how all of them, I'm not talking about
OpenAI and ChatGPT and some of the ones that are like there.

414
00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:08,538
But if you look at all of the money, the trillions flowing in, there are not enough exits.

415
00:33:08,538 --> 00:33:09,678
However,

416
00:33:09,708 --> 00:33:19,566
If you own a law firm, if you own an accounting firm, if you own an executive search firm
like we own, if you're running a hospital, if you're running a podcast network, AI is how

417
00:33:19,566 --> 00:33:25,131
you expand your margins and get time back for you and your employees.

418
00:33:25,652 --> 00:33:37,842
And so we're looking at a lot of solutions to kind of help you make more money or save
time or live a better life with productivity tools.

419
00:33:38,828 --> 00:33:41,461
I bet you're more excited in 2025 right now.

420
00:33:41,461 --> 00:33:45,846
You're as excited or more excited than you've ever been about entrepreneurship and
business.

421
00:33:47,628 --> 00:33:54,103
I'm personally excited and scared because everyone, because of AI, everyone has companies.

422
00:33:54,704 --> 00:33:56,586
Like our son has an AI company.

423
00:33:56,586 --> 00:34:06,713
maybe it's just cause we're in, like we spent a lot of time in New York and Chicago where
our daughter goes to school and you know, San Francisco, LA, Boston, Austin.

424
00:34:07,315 --> 00:34:10,647
Like it's, it is the best time to be an entrepreneur.

425
00:34:10,647 --> 00:34:15,621
I'm not so sure it's the best time to be an investor, which is part of our job right now.

426
00:34:15,630 --> 00:34:16,383
That's why you're scared.

427
00:34:16,383 --> 00:34:18,792
So the scared part came from that mentality.

428
00:34:18,796 --> 00:34:32,832
Yeah, like as a capital allocator, which we have been, it is getting as hard as ever to do
what you're supposed to do, which is generate returns, right?

429
00:34:32,832 --> 00:34:36,573
You put a dollar into a company, you should get three plus out.

430
00:34:36,573 --> 00:34:37,563
Not all of them work.

431
00:34:37,563 --> 00:34:42,845
So hopefully enough work to put you in the money, but companies need less money.

432
00:34:42,845 --> 00:34:43,836
They're more money.

433
00:34:43,836 --> 00:34:47,037
They're more companies and

434
00:34:47,456 --> 00:34:51,829
I could do five deals a day based on our deal flow.

435
00:34:51,889 --> 00:34:56,512
Literally the stuff coming in, all of it mentions AI.

436
00:34:56,813 --> 00:34:58,334
There are unlimited deals to do.

437
00:34:58,334 --> 00:35:03,385
That was different 10 years ago, where there are very few deals actually that were good.

438
00:35:03,385 --> 00:35:04,598
I'm not talking about bad deals.

439
00:35:04,598 --> 00:35:06,779
I'm talking about like, wow, this is awesome.

440
00:35:07,286 --> 00:35:08,721
Like I love this.

441
00:35:08,741 --> 00:35:10,402
This needs to exist.

442
00:35:12,450 --> 00:35:15,976
So are the, I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about casting you this scared word.

443
00:35:15,976 --> 00:35:19,842
I'm like, you're so analytical, you eliminate the fear.

444
00:35:20,023 --> 00:35:24,680
But then I'm thinking that Mike on the front end, I'm like, don't look like a guy that's
scared of anything.

445
00:35:26,196 --> 00:35:31,169
I mean, yeah, it's, it's funny what we both are scared of.

446
00:35:31,169 --> 00:35:33,351
It's very different things, right?

447
00:35:33,351 --> 00:35:36,733
So, you know, and it is because we're in different lanes.

448
00:35:36,733 --> 00:35:46,910
And, um you know, I will say that the best entrepreneurs in the world, can operate with
fear, they can operate in the storm of uncertainty.

449
00:35:46,910 --> 00:35:50,222
And that's something that Mike and I have developed.

450
00:35:50,222 --> 00:35:54,345
It's this, you know, distress tolerance that's so high.

451
00:35:54,345 --> 00:35:56,022
And we can say things like,

452
00:35:56,022 --> 00:35:59,805
Yeah, I'm scared about this or like this really, I can't figure it out.

453
00:35:59,805 --> 00:36:02,006
And it doesn't stop us.

454
00:36:02,006 --> 00:36:03,127
That's the difference.

455
00:36:03,127 --> 00:36:10,292
Um, and you know, Mike will look into the future and he's, know, big picture.

456
00:36:10,292 --> 00:36:13,194
I'm looking at pathways, right?

457
00:36:13,194 --> 00:36:15,596
What, how do I optimize decisions?

458
00:36:15,596 --> 00:36:18,298
How do I, how do I move the chess pieces up the board?

459
00:36:18,298 --> 00:36:20,399
How do I build incredible teams?

460
00:36:20,399 --> 00:36:24,014
How do I help our portfolio companies, you know,

461
00:36:24,014 --> 00:36:28,214
continue to communicate when there are 350 people, right?

462
00:36:28,214 --> 00:36:29,014
What do we learn?

463
00:36:29,014 --> 00:36:30,758
What can we share with?

464
00:36:32,588 --> 00:36:37,451
as I'm this new AI world, is it pretty much going to, it's what happened with Pinterest
with creatives back in the day.

465
00:36:37,451 --> 00:36:45,335
remember when Pinterest rolled up and there were creatives in my space and they were a
little bit mad because they're like, now it's going to level everyone up on creative.

466
00:36:45,335 --> 00:36:48,166
Cause you don't have to be the one that comes up with the idea.

467
00:36:48,167 --> 00:36:50,968
And it seems like what AI is going to do.

468
00:36:50,968 --> 00:36:58,933
It has a chance to level up the people that had some missing parts because then I'm like,
is this just going to be a marketing and branding game?

469
00:36:58,933 --> 00:37:01,794
If we all have access to the same things.

470
00:37:02,232 --> 00:37:03,789
Is that what this is gonna be?

471
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:17,030
Yeah, in many ways, like when execution of the actual what you're trying to do is as easy
as ever, whether it's creative, whether it's like legal work, whatever the delivery is,

472
00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:26,270
it's content, it's ideas, it's people, it's a lot of the stuff that we're doing in AI,
it's not automated systems.

473
00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:27,590
These are co-pilots.

474
00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:35,246
We're spending a lot of time in the executive search space, looking at all the tools
because we own a search company that does high level searches, tech.

475
00:37:35,246 --> 00:37:41,726
BC, know, hospitals, 2300 clients, like, you know, pretty big business.

476
00:37:42,166 --> 00:37:47,346
And at the end of the day, it's people plus machines.

477
00:37:47,786 --> 00:37:55,686
Like, if we send a message out to our customer that's automated, today, that scares me.

478
00:37:55,686 --> 00:38:01,206
Because we are being paid well, to be the filter.

479
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,172
here are the five people you need to talk to about this CFO role.

480
00:38:07,335 --> 00:38:17,923
And that is something that it's not about qualifications, it's about qualifications and is
this person gonna push the culture forward?

481
00:38:18,243 --> 00:38:22,907
Is this person gonna create friction that pulls them back, right?

482
00:38:23,027 --> 00:38:27,010
And that's every industry, you know.

483
00:38:27,064 --> 00:38:33,119
Like I don't like getting charged a thousand an hour for something that Harvey AI, a legal
platform can do easily.

484
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:34,840
Right?

485
00:38:35,041 --> 00:38:39,404
I do want the lawyers in our life to be business people.

486
00:38:39,745 --> 00:38:40,926
Yes, you can do this.

487
00:38:40,926 --> 00:38:47,471
Let me tell you the risk of this, because everything has risk, right?

488
00:38:47,992 --> 00:38:51,694
Help me understand what could go wrong here.

489
00:38:52,135 --> 00:38:55,628
Like that's a business person who has a legal background verse.

490
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,968
draft this agreement and make it a little more favorable for us because we have more
leverage.

491
00:38:59,968 --> 00:39:01,009
That's AI.

492
00:39:03,287 --> 00:39:05,188
What gets you guys?

493
00:39:05,489 --> 00:39:06,450
you have so much knowledge.

494
00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:10,033
You're sitting here talking to you and the combo of you two.

495
00:39:10,033 --> 00:39:15,167
It just um it's probably why your relationship and your marriage and it's a partnership.

496
00:39:15,167 --> 00:39:16,879
It's why it's probably lasted so well.

497
00:39:16,879 --> 00:39:21,021
You're so unique and different but you guys are both, I mean, you're both brilliant.

498
00:39:21,102 --> 00:39:23,604
Sitting here meeting you and sitting here for the first time.

499
00:39:23,604 --> 00:39:28,328
The the amount of information and how you process and the problem solving skills that you
have.

500
00:39:28,328 --> 00:39:30,109
It's immense and it's deep.

501
00:39:32,002 --> 00:39:33,183
What still gets you excited?

502
00:39:33,183 --> 00:39:38,828
You have all this skill, you have all this talent, you have the same human um feelings
that people have.

503
00:39:38,828 --> 00:39:47,815
We have fear and then we have courage and you you have to find a way to stay motivated and
you have your family and your kids but what gets you fired up?

504
00:39:47,816 --> 00:39:53,621
What gets you really excited so you're not caught in the monotony of someone that thinks
like, my gosh, another day of this.

505
00:39:53,921 --> 00:39:54,752
What gets you fired

506
00:39:54,752 --> 00:39:57,364
I purpose, right?

507
00:39:57,364 --> 00:40:09,512
So Mike and I continuously, like you guys are probably going to laugh at this, but um it's
not just business ideas that we run our V2Mom framework through.

508
00:40:09,512 --> 00:40:13,975
We created a V2Mom for our life over the next 10 years, right?

509
00:40:13,975 --> 00:40:23,574
So that we do have purpose and we feel connected, you know, outside of work, with work,
and we

510
00:40:23,574 --> 00:40:28,894
have a clear vision of what we want to do and what we're doing this for.

511
00:40:28,894 --> 00:40:31,140
And I think a lot of people forget that.

512
00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:36,765
And that's when that boredom, monotony, resentment starts to build.

513
00:40:36,805 --> 00:40:50,007
So what gets us excited is all the companies that we're helping, the companies that we
own, and we're trying to impart knowledge on and really get them to grow, all the founders

514
00:40:50,007 --> 00:40:52,018
and entrepreneurs that we meet.

515
00:40:52,074 --> 00:41:01,217
And speaking to people like you to get our messages out because we're not in this, writing
this book, you don't write a book to make money.

516
00:41:02,217 --> 00:41:04,828
It's not something you make money on.

517
00:41:04,828 --> 00:41:10,119
You actually have to want to do it because the sales part is so broken.

518
00:41:10,219 --> 00:41:13,020
So we just want to amplify our message.

519
00:41:13,020 --> 00:41:18,142
so now that we're free birds, I don't want to say empty nesters, I like saying free birds.

520
00:41:18,142 --> 00:41:19,622
ah

521
00:41:19,714 --> 00:41:22,973
we're going to hit the road and try to get our messages out.

522
00:41:24,799 --> 00:41:26,767
Do you write the book to make connections?

523
00:41:26,767 --> 00:41:27,860
it that simple?

524
00:41:29,954 --> 00:41:30,834
think I did.

525
00:41:30,834 --> 00:41:34,156
I think I've always wanted to write a book.

526
00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:40,699
And I think I've kept so much knowledge in like, let's just call it chapter titles.

527
00:41:40,699 --> 00:41:48,882
Like, so the chapter titles of the book, I already had all those, you know, titles,
perception is reality, put the cult in your culture.

528
00:41:48,942 --> 00:41:58,412
So one, was I wanted to amplify our messages, you know, we talked to entrepreneurs all
week, you know, probably 15 a week among

529
00:41:58,412 --> 00:42:00,443
you know, or between the two of us.

530
00:42:00,583 --> 00:42:13,698
And the second part was, which I don't think Mike and I realize is all the amazing
connections we've made with people like you across the country who are speaking our same

531
00:42:13,698 --> 00:42:14,688
language.

532
00:42:14,688 --> 00:42:17,989
And it's really cool and they get us.

533
00:42:18,029 --> 00:42:20,450
So that's been, you know, a great.

534
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:28,278
Mike, you got a big old kid inside of you, How do you let that kid live every day?

535
00:42:28,278 --> 00:42:28,909
What do do?

536
00:42:28,909 --> 00:42:30,781
Let it scream, because it's there,

537
00:42:32,797 --> 00:42:40,358
So you have to understand me, you have to understand like, you know, my childhood, was
born with heart failure, I shouldn't have lived.

538
00:42:41,098 --> 00:42:43,498
And when I'm old, 51.

539
00:42:43,718 --> 00:42:48,438
So I had congestive heart failure at a time when they didn't go in and operate, either
live or you don't.

540
00:42:48,438 --> 00:42:51,418
Luckily, the hole in my heart closed.

541
00:42:51,478 --> 00:42:59,790
When I was 19, my valve, I two surgeries, one, my valve had burst, my aortic valve, zero
blood pressure.

542
00:42:59,790 --> 00:43:03,970
emergency surgery had happened to burst out of doctors office, which saved my life.

543
00:43:03,970 --> 00:43:10,790
I went from being a very stressed out kid to like, I'm in extra innings, like, let's go,
right?

544
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:12,070
Like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

545
00:43:12,070 --> 00:43:13,150
I'm alive.

546
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:15,470
Like I shouldn't be here, right?

547
00:43:15,470 --> 00:43:19,210
And so I do seek out fun.

548
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:22,110
I, and we invest behind that.

549
00:43:22,110 --> 00:43:28,210
So we invested in music festivals and I also

550
00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:30,530
go to a lot of live music.

551
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:42,530
I, you know, 200 some fish shows, going to see Bruce Hornsby and a band called Eggie on
Monday night at the, you know, the theater upstate, like love music.

552
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:45,570
Cass and I are doing four adventures a year.

553
00:43:45,570 --> 00:43:47,050
You know, we're empty nesters.

554
00:43:47,050 --> 00:43:50,270
We sacrifice a lot for companies and kids.

555
00:43:50,270 --> 00:43:54,770
We're going to the Arctic and bunch of other stuff that just we've wanted to do.

556
00:43:55,210 --> 00:43:56,230
And

557
00:43:57,110 --> 00:44:00,871
I've never really woken up and said like, work sucks.

558
00:44:00,871 --> 00:44:09,413
Like we went to an event last night that honored our very good friend and the writer of
the forward to our book, Gary Vaynerchuk.

559
00:44:09,954 --> 00:44:11,314
And he's like family.

560
00:44:11,314 --> 00:44:15,495
He started all this stuff from our conference room.

561
00:44:15,815 --> 00:44:26,078
And just to reflect back on kind of his 12 years building this nonprofit that what people
don't understand is like, he's very public.

562
00:44:26,242 --> 00:44:35,975
And a lot of like the best people, like, you know what they're doing business wise, but
it's the secret things that they do in the background, the philanthropy, the all that

563
00:44:35,975 --> 00:44:38,445
stuff that really is impressive.

564
00:44:38,925 --> 00:44:47,358
And he had no money when he came into our office and you know, he's now built an empire.

565
00:44:47,358 --> 00:44:53,349
And what's interesting is he loves it as much as we do.

566
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:55,970
Like he wanted to write the forward cause like,

567
00:44:55,970 --> 00:44:58,931
his life is shoveling shit and he loves it.

568
00:44:59,552 --> 00:45:00,833
Very positive guy.

569
00:45:00,833 --> 00:45:12,634
So the whole idea of shoveling shit isn't this like you have to give up your happiness and
this like beginner's mind and like childlike way that you approach the world, which I do.

570
00:45:12,634 --> 00:45:14,570
I mean, I appreciate you saying that.

571
00:45:14,570 --> 00:45:18,022
I'm kind of a big kid in every meeting.

572
00:45:18,022 --> 00:45:20,127
I'm like, you know, teach me.

573
00:45:20,127 --> 00:45:21,424
I don't know this.

574
00:45:21,725 --> 00:45:24,706
I want to learn and

575
00:45:24,706 --> 00:45:35,758
We've learned that hard work, focus, transparency, family first are kind of our values and
superpowers.

576
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:40,831
your guys, I don't ever bring up family unless you guys invoke it, but you mention your
two kids.

577
00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:46,921
I'm smiling, uh I'm too old to be your kid.

578
00:45:48,888 --> 00:45:49,752
But I'm-

579
00:45:49,954 --> 00:45:53,769
But I'm smiling thinking about how lucky they are.

580
00:45:54,232 --> 00:45:57,296
We have three kids, by the way, Mike, did you just say two?

581
00:45:57,296 --> 00:45:59,829
Yeah, we do.

582
00:45:59,829 --> 00:46:00,430
Remember?

583
00:46:00,430 --> 00:46:01,950
Cass, did you know about all three?

584
00:46:01,950 --> 00:46:03,206
Is that what we're talking about?

585
00:46:03,524 --> 00:46:03,903
did.

586
00:46:03,903 --> 00:46:06,326
I did know that I was there when you were born.

587
00:46:06,326 --> 00:46:08,209
I three kids with my first wife.

588
00:46:08,450 --> 00:46:09,654
That would be me.

589
00:46:10,255 --> 00:46:12,124
So, you know, um...

590
00:46:13,878 --> 00:46:25,342
Yeah, I bet they are ecstatic that the next if you guys end up living full lives, the
satisfaction and smiles that they're going to get to have is just tremendous because we're

591
00:46:25,342 --> 00:46:29,277
sitting here talking business and you know, we're talking about a book and what you guys
are doing.

592
00:46:29,277 --> 00:46:33,722
But when I mentioned Mike being a kid, you almost couldn't hold it together.

593
00:46:34,004 --> 00:46:37,657
Yeah, no, that is exactly, that's him, right?

594
00:46:37,657 --> 00:46:41,480
And I think I was like born an adult with spreadsheets.

595
00:46:43,756 --> 00:46:46,596
And you've tried to run his life that way ever since, we know.

596
00:46:47,470 --> 00:46:49,470
There's no running Mike's life.

597
00:46:49,470 --> 00:46:51,070
Mike's got his own life.

598
00:46:51,250 --> 00:46:52,470
That's the other thing.

599
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:56,782
It's like we have a lot of shared time and there's a lot of me time.

600
00:46:56,782 --> 00:46:59,364
like the partnership is she does.

601
00:47:00,045 --> 00:47:09,012
There's certain things she loves to do and one is like she does run her life like I don't
want like that to escape like and many moms run lives.

602
00:47:09,573 --> 00:47:14,597
I think I've been very active with the kids and like I'm not Mia.

603
00:47:15,739 --> 00:47:22,725
But it hasn't been a life where we both do it's not 5050 all the time because sometimes I
do more work she does less.

604
00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:24,806
um

605
00:47:24,994 --> 00:47:31,779
We do delegate to, we do delegate to like, like he's VP of religion and cars.

606
00:47:31,779 --> 00:47:33,620
Like I don't do car maintenance.

607
00:47:33,620 --> 00:47:37,262
don't, anytime something comes in with the cars, I'm like, here you go.

608
00:47:37,302 --> 00:47:38,703
Things like that.

609
00:47:38,703 --> 00:47:41,105
So, that works, right?

610
00:47:41,105 --> 00:47:43,086
We stay in our own lanes.

611
00:47:44,070 --> 00:47:47,052
you guys do so much for so many others.

612
00:47:47,052 --> 00:47:47,772
I'm sitting here.

613
00:47:47,772 --> 00:47:50,634
assuming the thing that you went to last night.

614
00:47:50,724 --> 00:47:53,115
you you mentioned your good friend.

615
00:47:53,136 --> 00:47:54,476
We all know him as Gary Vee, right?

616
00:47:54,476 --> 00:47:56,397
If we're not all friends with him, he's Gary Vee to us.

617
00:47:56,397 --> 00:48:01,075
He's probably Gary or Gary Vaynerchuk to you guys but is it his pencils to promises?

618
00:48:01,075 --> 00:48:02,581
Is that his not?

619
00:48:03,842 --> 00:48:04,302
Yeah.

620
00:48:04,302 --> 00:48:04,923
Yeah.

621
00:48:04,923 --> 00:48:08,464
I, you know, I love he doesn't mention it often.

622
00:48:08,685 --> 00:48:11,276
I love that he does that behind the scenes.

623
00:48:12,118 --> 00:48:12,539
Yeah.

624
00:48:12,539 --> 00:48:25,134
you said that yesterday in his speech for this lifetime achievement award, 17 years of
service behind the scenes where he sat on the board and our good friend, Adam Brown, who

625
00:48:25,134 --> 00:48:27,495
started it was like, dude, I know you don't have time.

626
00:48:27,495 --> 00:48:30,866
He's like, no, I'm all in and I'm going to sit on the board.

627
00:48:31,806 --> 00:48:32,226
love it.

628
00:48:32,226 --> 00:48:35,348
Just when I when I see someone or come around, I'm here in the Midwest.

629
00:48:35,348 --> 00:48:36,888
I spend most of my time here.

630
00:48:36,888 --> 00:48:44,131
But when you find out about someone and they've done something for a decade or two decades
or three decades behind the scenes, that's all I need to know about the human.

631
00:48:44,191 --> 00:48:46,392
Yeah, I'll do a lot of things with that human being.

632
00:48:46,392 --> 00:48:54,196
uh So you guys do so much for other people and you're investing in businesses and you're
looking for opportunities.

633
00:48:54,196 --> 00:49:00,338
But I'm sitting here saying like, have you really developed the life that all you need is
each other in your family?

634
00:49:00,718 --> 00:49:02,783
Like have you built that type of life?

635
00:49:03,717 --> 00:49:05,122
I mean, I think we...

636
00:49:05,122 --> 00:49:07,126
think that would be empty for us.

637
00:49:07,126 --> 00:49:11,246
I think we need friendships and adventure.

638
00:49:11,246 --> 00:49:14,331
I think, you know, Mike needs music.

639
00:49:14,332 --> 00:49:14,622
Yeah.

640
00:49:14,622 --> 00:49:15,282
And purpose.

641
00:49:15,282 --> 00:49:16,433
think Mike.

642
00:49:17,715 --> 00:49:18,205
Yeah.

643
00:49:18,205 --> 00:49:25,201
I mean, purpose is a big deal and per you know, like when we wrote the book, we had a
different purpose, right?

644
00:49:25,201 --> 00:49:29,144
We knew for those 18 months, like what was happening.

645
00:49:29,144 --> 00:49:35,710
I think, um, you have to like health and longevity is a big thing for us.

646
00:49:35,710 --> 00:49:36,570
And.

647
00:49:37,260 --> 00:49:48,057
you know, with all kids kind of grown and flown, let's just call it, you know, they'll
come back, but we have more time to really think about it and dedicate ourselves to what

648
00:49:48,057 --> 00:49:50,979
does the next 50 years look like.

649
00:49:50,979 --> 00:49:53,551
I think you have to look at it as impact.

650
00:49:53,551 --> 00:49:57,063
what can we, what kind of impact can we make as humans?

651
00:49:57,364 --> 00:49:59,425
And it can't just all be related to us.

652
00:49:59,425 --> 00:50:01,646
There's gotta be bigger picture there.

653
00:50:01,810 --> 00:50:05,239
So I don't, I don't think we sit there and say, we we've got it all.

654
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:06,816
Like I want.

655
00:50:06,816 --> 00:50:09,790
I want uh friends to travel with, right?

656
00:50:09,790 --> 00:50:12,319
I want uh more dogs.

657
00:50:12,319 --> 00:50:13,545
I like silence.

658
00:50:13,545 --> 00:50:16,608
I like more things that are just meditative.

659
00:50:17,511 --> 00:50:20,085
That's Cass's favorite song is silent.

660
00:50:20,524 --> 00:50:22,134
Everyone asks, what's your favorite music?

661
00:50:22,134 --> 00:50:23,972
And I'm like, silence.

662
00:50:24,750 --> 00:50:33,870
Um when I was doing a little bit more prep work before we jumped on here today, I pulled
up my Spotify app and I just put on some meditation and and while um sometimes you just

663
00:50:33,870 --> 00:50:39,270
need that sometimes need some hard begging Metallica and sometimes I need some some
meditation.

664
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:40,630
that's right.

665
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:40,829
Yeah.

666
00:50:40,829 --> 00:50:43,850
So your guys book, we can get it everywhere, right?

667
00:50:43,850 --> 00:50:46,610
Um do you want do you want us to buy it from your site?

668
00:50:46,610 --> 00:50:49,510
Is that where you want to buy it from or do want to redirect it somewhere else?

669
00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:50,381
It doesn't matter.

670
00:50:50,381 --> 00:50:51,502
You can buy it from our site.

671
00:50:51,502 --> 00:50:56,838
We also have like, if you buy bundles, you get a lot more perks if you want that and
benefits.

672
00:50:56,838 --> 00:51:01,186
Amazon is super easy too.

673
00:51:01,186 --> 00:51:01,988
book.

674
00:51:02,681 --> 00:51:03,675
So who did the auto book?

675
00:51:03,675 --> 00:51:05,150
Did you guys both read it?

676
00:51:05,324 --> 00:51:06,298
Yes, we did.

677
00:51:06,298 --> 00:51:07,426
It's our voices.

678
00:51:07,426 --> 00:51:08,308
That's so good.

679
00:51:08,308 --> 00:51:10,484
How'd you decide who got what chapter?

680
00:51:11,224 --> 00:51:18,288
Well, in the book, you can kind of tell like, it's his story, my story, his story, my
story.

681
00:51:18,288 --> 00:51:19,989
And so we just divided it.

682
00:51:19,989 --> 00:51:26,022
And then I went through and kind of took the we parts and then divided that between us.

683
00:51:28,056 --> 00:51:37,366
So give us the final insight here on to let you guys go get back to all your making
billions and investing money ah and living your life like you're that kid that still

684
00:51:37,366 --> 00:51:45,415
shouldn't be here because your heart closed up, ah So shoveling shit, but a love story.

685
00:51:45,415 --> 00:51:50,030
Is that a love story for you two or a love story for your business?

686
00:51:52,943 --> 00:51:54,183
It's a love story.

687
00:51:54,183 --> 00:52:02,991
It's our love story because it is again, like our love language is business, but it's also
this like ode to all the founders out there.

688
00:52:02,991 --> 00:52:04,612
It's a love story for them.

689
00:52:04,612 --> 00:52:07,935
It's like a love letter to them to say like, we see you.

690
00:52:07,935 --> 00:52:09,496
This is what it's going to take.

691
00:52:09,496 --> 00:52:12,478
We've been there and we're in the trenches with you.

692
00:52:16,066 --> 00:52:32,378
And I would just leave em everyone with the idea that if you are fortunate enough to be
able to spend your day building stuff, um it's the best way you could spend your day, even

693
00:52:32,378 --> 00:52:33,520
if you fail.

694
00:52:34,181 --> 00:52:36,782
We live in the greatest country in the world.

695
00:52:37,243 --> 00:52:42,878
No matter what you read, like go try starting a business in Singapore or elsewhere, you
get a scarlet letter.

696
00:52:42,878 --> 00:52:45,830
If it fails, you never work again.

697
00:52:46,690 --> 00:52:56,457
And being able to get up and build in a system that rewards ingenuity and hard work is the
best.

698
00:52:56,457 --> 00:53:00,439
And you'll never look back and say, that wasn't a great experience.

699
00:53:01,721 --> 00:53:15,754
And I think part of the book made us realize how lucky we have been to never work for
anyone, to be able to create value for ourselves and others we love.

700
00:53:15,754 --> 00:53:22,056
Everyone at Buddy Media, all hundreds of employees had equity and make mistakes with
people we love.

701
00:53:22,756 --> 00:53:26,837
And now be able to laugh about it, even though we've had some hairy times.

702
00:53:26,837 --> 00:53:31,838
So if you can do it, no better way to spend your life.

703
00:53:32,138 --> 00:53:43,782
And if we could help reach out, I Cas and Mike.com, we have an awesome community and we're
like really, we've met a lot of like fancy people and like accomplished people like you,

704
00:53:43,782 --> 00:53:44,192
Mark.

705
00:53:44,192 --> 00:53:45,722
We've also like,

706
00:53:46,284 --> 00:53:53,239
the people running pizza places and car dealerships and building signs for companies.

707
00:53:55,521 --> 00:54:03,617
These are the people who we are working with and we wrote this for don't have Ivy League
backgrounds and money to fall back.

708
00:54:03,617 --> 00:54:05,111
They're real entrepreneurs.

709
00:54:05,111 --> 00:54:06,529
They're not venture entrepreneurs.

710
00:54:06,529 --> 00:54:11,172
They're like, if this doesn't work, I have no idea how I'm feeding my family.

711
00:54:11,433 --> 00:54:13,274
And that community

712
00:54:14,090 --> 00:54:15,353
is turning into awesome.

713
00:54:15,353 --> 00:54:20,566
mean, we have a meeting today, the Founders Farm meeting, which um we love.

714
00:54:22,540 --> 00:54:26,709
You guys must have mistaken something for fancy and special about me.

715
00:54:27,020 --> 00:54:29,848
No, say accomplish, accomplish when I say.

716
00:54:29,848 --> 00:54:33,621
was going to say, like, he must be talking to his buddy or his friend there over in Hudson
yards.

717
00:54:33,621 --> 00:54:34,860
Cause that ain't me.

718
00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:36,541
No, you're like a baller, right?

719
00:54:36,541 --> 00:54:40,845
Like you've, you probably don't talk to us unless we do something like this.

720
00:54:40,845 --> 00:54:47,881
Cause you know, you've stuck with, you know, what you're doing and have developed not only
reputation, but a business.

721
00:54:47,881 --> 00:54:52,685
um And you're no different as an entrepreneur than we are cut open our arms.

722
00:54:52,685 --> 00:54:54,947
It's the same blood and that's what we love.

723
00:54:54,947 --> 00:54:56,228
Like we're no better or worse.

724
00:54:56,228 --> 00:54:59,350
We're just shoveling shit like everyone else.

725
00:55:00,130 --> 00:55:06,412
Yeah, I have this passion to, you know, I think we all have this story and this narrative
based on the life we know we've lived.

726
00:55:06,432 --> 00:55:08,612
Sometimes that story's relevant to other people.

727
00:55:08,612 --> 00:55:09,633
Sometimes it's not.

728
00:55:09,633 --> 00:55:15,014
Sometimes they compare it, but I just look at this average or below average place that I
came from.

729
00:55:15,014 --> 00:55:21,376
And from the outside, a lot of people view it as very accomplished and everything inside
says I'm not there yet.

730
00:55:21,756 --> 00:55:29,618
And what I do is I look at all these people that I know that are equal, if not already
better than me when I started.

731
00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:32,014
and it seems like it's similar to you.

732
00:55:32,014 --> 00:55:33,745
It's like guys, you're right there.

733
00:55:33,745 --> 00:55:35,526
You've already got the tools.

734
00:55:35,707 --> 00:55:41,032
Just go a little further, connect with a few more people, read the books, develop your
mind a little bit more.

735
00:55:41,032 --> 00:55:48,117
because if you knew the mindset of this 25 year old kid 21 years ago, I'm telling you, I
had nothing that you don't have.

736
00:55:49,118 --> 00:55:55,884
And that belief and that desire and that all in commitment can completely change your life
and then others you surround yourself with.

737
00:55:55,884 --> 00:55:58,370
that's I'm on this journey in this path to say

738
00:55:58,370 --> 00:56:04,043
Guys, no matter what you think I've achieved, I'm telling you, I'm normal or below normal
from where I came from and who I was.

739
00:56:05,504 --> 00:56:06,315
I love that.

740
00:56:06,315 --> 00:56:07,835
That's everyone.

741
00:56:07,995 --> 00:56:18,161
mean, matter who you are, and I think the entrepreneurs mentality is what Gary said last
night is you've seen nothing yet.

742
00:56:18,161 --> 00:56:21,043
Like the best is ahead of me no matter what I've done, right?

743
00:56:21,043 --> 00:56:22,623
There's no sitting on laurels.

744
00:56:22,623 --> 00:56:26,626
Like this for us is not just like walk down memory lane, look at us, look at us.

745
00:56:26,626 --> 00:56:34,870
Yeah, it's we put together a focus document this week, which is like this is exactly what
we

746
00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:37,472
our vision for where we want to be in 10 years.

747
00:56:37,472 --> 00:56:39,293
Here's how we get there.

748
00:56:39,794 --> 00:56:43,397
And here's how we're going to measure success because we're not going to succeed on
everything.

749
00:56:43,397 --> 00:56:45,117
We're going have to pivot, right?

750
00:56:45,158 --> 00:56:47,719
Now, normally we do planning for a year.

751
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,562
So we're going to like, we wanted a bigger mission.

752
00:56:51,663 --> 00:56:56,006
And then we're looking at like six month, one year increments of what we have to do.

753
00:56:56,587 --> 00:56:58,728
But that's the entrepreneur mindset.

754
00:56:58,728 --> 00:57:00,310
I'm sure you have documents.

755
00:57:00,310 --> 00:57:01,250
It's like,

756
00:57:01,496 --> 00:57:02,406
Here's where I'm at.

757
00:57:02,406 --> 00:57:03,689
Here's all where I want to be.

758
00:57:03,689 --> 00:57:08,294
Here's how I'm going to close the gap between the reality and my vision of the future.

759
00:57:08,776 --> 00:57:10,636
And focus is how you get.

760
00:57:10,636 --> 00:57:11,666
You think I'm wrong, Cassie?

761
00:57:11,666 --> 00:57:12,618
You can get involved here too.

762
00:57:12,618 --> 00:57:16,546
The guys tend to talk when the smartest person in the room is the lady.

763
00:57:16,546 --> 00:57:27,206
um, but do you, do you, I have this belief now that I can almost, I can reverse engineer
an outcome, almost, almost everything I can reverse engineer it.

764
00:57:28,564 --> 00:57:29,014
Yeah.

765
00:57:29,014 --> 00:57:38,798
I mean, I think, I think that's the confidence of that's the confidence you've built by
getting punched in the face a lot.

766
00:57:38,798 --> 00:57:44,501
And I think that's the ultimate entrepreneur, ultimate business scalers mindset.

767
00:57:44,501 --> 00:57:45,221
Right.

768
00:57:45,221 --> 00:57:57,126
So we're no different, you know, the successful business owners, they've just developed
that, that endurance and they've failed one more time, but they didn't give up.

769
00:57:57,186 --> 00:57:57,686
Right.

770
00:57:57,686 --> 00:58:06,872
And that it's that not giving up that drives us and makes us confident and competent that
we will figure this out.

771
00:58:06,872 --> 00:58:13,837
We can figure out how to move forward, take steps that get us more data, even if they're
not the perfect steps.

772
00:58:13,837 --> 00:58:15,298
That's the difference.

773
00:58:16,140 --> 00:58:17,457
Alright, you guys are wonderful.

774
00:58:17,457 --> 00:58:19,102
I've talked to you all day long.

775
00:58:19,227 --> 00:58:19,698
Thank you.

776
00:58:19,698 --> 00:58:21,093
Thank you for this time.

777
00:58:23,618 --> 00:58:32,714
Thanks for thanks for writing the book and doing all the things you've done and wearing
your pink pullover and wearing your wearing your hat.

778
00:58:32,714 --> 00:58:33,094
Put it on.

779
00:58:33,094 --> 00:58:33,845
There it is.

780
00:58:33,845 --> 00:58:34,225
Right.

781
00:58:34,225 --> 00:58:37,637
The reverse hat guys he got yelled at because he couldn't reverse the screen.

782
00:58:37,637 --> 00:58:40,029
So thank you.

783
00:58:40,029 --> 00:58:40,279
you all.

784
00:58:40,279 --> 00:58:42,620
Have an awesome day and you guys go out and check out their website.

785
00:58:42,620 --> 00:58:47,633
Go read the book and I'm pumped about continue to follow you guys and see what the
directory is.

786
00:58:47,633 --> 00:58:48,874
Thanks for joining us.

787
00:58:49,004 --> 00:58:50,084
Thank you.